[dak0ta]

Hi,

I started archery today and love it! I was wondering if you guys could recommend some good brands that will allow me to learn properly and perhaps hunt. I see that PSE is pretty popular. Any models that I should read up on?

I was using a 66'' 20# recurve today. It was pretty nice. Should I look for something similar or higher poundage? I'm 5'8 155 lbs. RH

[jbkebert]

Martin Howa hunter is a great bow in the moderate price range. About the only recurve that holds its value well is a Black Widow. In the high end range but you'll get most of your money back out of it.

To start hunting big game you need to look at a 40# and higher. A good compromise to learn is a 30# bow or in that neighborhood.

[Nematocyst]

Tag.

After having researched recurves on another network last fall,
I have an opinion, and a fairly radical one for recurves,
but it's too late on Sunday night to dig out the bookmarks.

Will do so when I get some time; traveling week coming up, so may take some time ...
_________

Added by edit: it was well marked in the bookmarks, so couldn't resist posting it.

Hoyt Excel Recurve Riser (http://www.lancasterarchery.com/hoyt-excel-recurve-riser.html). Very unconventional, and wood lovers will scoff.
But it's practical for it's price, and the fact that one can add limbs of various weights,
from 30 lb for learning and practice to heavier for hunting.

I haven't invested yet - haven't done archery since I was a kid - but when I do, it'll be this one.

[Jason_G]

I have an old Stemmler Jaguar (45 lb), and a Martin Hunter (50 lb). I've shot some other brands, and feel like the Martins are one of the best bang for the buck. They are quiet, smooth, and well built. If you have the funds, a Black Widow would be awesome, but they are pricey.

Hoyt Excel Recurve Riser. Very unconventional, and wood lovers will scoff.
But it's practical for it's price, and the fact that one can add limbs of various weights,
from 30 lb for learning and practice to heavier for hunting.

You can do the same with most wooden takedowns as well, I believe.

MHO: I like one piece bows better than takedowns. They tend to shoot smoother, and are usually a little lighter, and most of my friends that shoot takedowns never break their bows down anyway. That said, there are plenty of nice takedowns out there.

Recurves are fun. I took my two year old son with me to shoot hay bales this morning. He likes to pull arrows out for me :)


Jason

[Nematocyst]

Jason, from what I've read (a lot), and based on no experience, you're spot on re one piece shooting more smoothly than takedowns. No contest.

For me - and perhaps others - the takedown idea is appealing for two reasons:

* I'm a backpacker, and the thought of walking in two days to basecamp with a takedown strapped to the side is appealing.
* More importantly, I love the idea of being able to switch out limbs with different weights.
Being a small person, I want light-weight limbs to learn and practice basic skills,
but the potential to add heavier ones for hunting medium game (white tail).

[Jason_G]

They have some advantages. If you're packing in and out, then it makes sense.

Jason

[Hugo]

I bet the archery industry is sending a great many gift baskets to the film makers and actors for Hunger Games right now. Also glad the Olympics has archery too. Might also mean you see lots of slightly used bows for resale soon.

[Mot45acp]

I just went through this myself. I went with a PSE Blackhawk for my first bow. 35lbs. draw weight. I just received it today. It was $220ish.

Of course right after I order it, I find the Martin Saber. Its a takedown that can go from 30lbs to 55 with swap of limbs. I think the bow is in the $229 range and the limbs are $79

Please understand, I am not an expert. Just a guy looking to start slinging arrows and had done hours of googling. One thing I did was call the folks at 3 Rivers Archery and talked to one of their experts. They were really helpful and they don't try to sell you a bunch of stuff. My next purchase will be through then.

[Jason_G]

One thing I did was call the folks at 3 Rivers Archery and talked to one of their experts. They were really helpful and they don't try to sell you a bunch of stuff. My next purchase will be through then.

3 Rivers are good folks and a great resource for traditional archery necessities IME. I've used them quite a bit for arrow making supplies, etc.

Here's my Martin with a homemade quiver and homemade arrows (I need to make some more):
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/itsthewhitmans/jason/Bow1.jpg


Jason

[dak0ta]

What do you guys think of the Vista, Bear, and PSE recurves?

[Jason_G]

What do you guys think of the Vista, Bear, and PSE recurves?


It's been probably at least seven years since I've shopped around for bows, so my opinion might be somewhat dated, so I'll reserve it and let folks who have shopped more currently answer that one. I will say though, that most Bass Pro shops have an indoor archery room and will let you "test drive" a bow. That's what I did when I was shopping around. I also shot a few friends' bows for further comparison. I think you should try to do the same if possible.

Jason

[wheelgunslinger]

If you're just starting, the very first thing you need is a good archery coach.
Why? Because archery looks simple and that's deceptive.
I've been doing recurve archery since 1986 or so and I'm still learning and unlearning.

This is true for most recurve archers, if not all, who don't grow up shooting.


Nearly every major brand is beyond great. Most of the smaller brands like Quinn are better than the major brands.

If you want a wood bow, then you should take the time to learn about what makes a good bow and a bad one.

Or, just buy something neato with takedown limbs and see what happens. I recommend against that for a number of reasons.

[wheelgunslinger]

I bet the archery industry is sending a great many gift baskets to the film makers and actors for Hunger Games right now. Also glad the Olympics has archery too. Might also mean you see lots of slightly used bows for resale soon.
You are so right. With Hunger Games, Avengers, and now Pixar's Brave, archery interest has swelled.
It happened with Lord of the Rings as well as Blade 3.
Unfortunately, it's a learned skill like any tool use, and it requires discipline. Not many people have that these days. So, a lot of good equipment is bought and then abandoned for the next big thing. Makes it very good for our OP though. Used stuff is usually in brand new condition, aside from a scratch or two, and represents a huge bargain for beginners and veterans alike. So, I don't mind the Hunger Games bump. :-)

To start hunting big game you need to look at a 40# and higher.
The very first step to hunting is to establish impeccable form and mental discipline. Doesn't matter how much energy that arrow has (or how fancy the head is) if you can't get it precisely placed. But, there is a lot of talk about minimum poundage, usually legislated by local or state agencies in hunting regs.

[Nematocyst]

^ ... which is one advantage of a take-down bow that can accommodate limbs varying in pull weight from 30 lb to 50 or more. It allows a noobie to start light to develop good form, then as skill increases, add heavier limbs for hunting larger game (maybe after starting with smaller game with lighter limbs).

[Jason_G]

^ ... which is one advantage of a take-down bow that can accommodate limbs varying in pull weight from 30 lb to 50 or more. It allows a noobie to start light to develop good form, then as skill increases, add heavier limbs for hunting larger game (maybe after starting with smaller game with lighter limbs).


I'd say just get a bow you can draw (properly), and is the appropriate draw weight for your biggest game, and spend some quality time with it (and some properly tuned arrows). Draw weight shouldn't influence your form unless you are over-bowed, or practicing while exhausted. There are lots of exercises that one can do to improve stamina, if that's an issue.

I think limb interchangeability is more of a marketing angle than anything else, JMHO. Most grown men that are in good health can handle what are usually considered the minimum draw weights for taking medium sized game, like deer. 40-45# is good enough, and is not too stout to learn on IMO. Lots of whitetails have fallen to 35# bows. The biggest advantage of a takedown is saving space.

Another thing to consider with swapping out limbs is that multiple sets of limbs are going to require multiple sets of differently tuned arrows, more than likely.

Just seems like a lot of hassle to me, for arguable benefit. Again, JMHO. YMMV.



Jason

[Nematocyst]

^ Yeah, YMMV.

We can agree to disagree.

And by the way, if that strategy works out, then start a new shooter,
including smaller people, shooting a .30-06 instead of a .22.

Tell them to just work through the discomfort and proper form will come.

[Jason_G]

^ Yeah, YMMV.

We can agree to disagree.

And by the way, if that strategy works out, then start a new shooter,
including smaller people, shooting a .30-06 instead of a .22.

Tell them to just work through the discomfort and proper form will come.


Ehh...

Would you really equate a 40# draw to a .30-06? It's not like I recommended going out and buying a 80# draw. Kind of an apples and oranges, comparison, too.

Note that I said in my earlier post that my opinion hinged on the fact that the shooter isn't over-bowed. If someone is over-bowed with the minimum required draw weight they want to hunt with, then swapping limbs might make more sense to me. I wouldn't expect that to be the case for most grown men though. Interchanging limbs would make the most sense on a growing youth's bow IMO.

I learned on a 45# draw. I don't feel that I would've improved any faster with a 25# or 30# or any other lighter draw weight, but again, I wasn't over-bowed with a 45#, either. And I'm an average sized, average strength guy. I only moved up to a 50# because it was a nicer bow than what I was shooting before.

Can certainly agree to disagree though. :) no worries.



Jason

[Nematocyst]

Yeah, let's just agree to disagree for now. ;)

Nem

[wheelgunslinger]

And by the way, if that strategy works out, then start a new shooter,
including smaller people, shooting a .30-06 instead of a .22.

Tell them to just work through the discomfort and proper form will come.

That's a fair analogy. Except I'd maybe even ratchet it up to something like a 458 winmag.
When you're learning to shoot a traditional bow, you need time to draw, go through your mental checklist, and then settle into the release smoothly and deliberately. You have to have time to be deliberate so you can reinforce good physiological memory for shooting instead of standing there giving yourself target panic because you can't hold the string back while rock steady.
A lower draw weight gives new shooters time to be deliberate. Too much draw weight makes something happen equivalent to trigger jerk or flinching in riflery.

[Dave Markowitz]

I would recommend nothing higher than a 40# to start with. You will be using muscles in ways that are otherwise unused, and you need to work up to shooting more powerful bows. I concur with the previous posters who've said that you need to work on your form. A lighter draw weight will allow you to do that.

The Samick Sage takedown recurve has been getting good reviews online. It's about $140 from 3 Rivers Archery.

FWIW, I got back into archery about 6 months ago after a lapse of about 15 years. The only bow I owned was a 55# Martin Howatt Hunter recurve. I strung it once and knew that I was way overbowed, so I ordered a 40# Hungarian horsebow from Seven Meadows Archery (I wanted something different). The 40# bow allowed me to build up my muscles and regain my form so that when a few months later a 50# Samick SLB-II longbow followed me home, I was able to shoot it.

[Nematocyst]

Wheel and Dave, both of you guys have way more knowledge of this than me. Other than some experiences as an early teen, I'm a newbie that hasn't even purchased a bow yet (it's on a very long list of things to acquire for the wilds once cash flow increases again --- ETA mid-late fall), so most of my opinions come from reading many pages and participating in several bow forums, including over on MoF, and listening to experienced archers.

THE number one thing that experienced archers seem to agree on is this: form is everything, and beginners would do well to start lighter than their optimal draw weight while they develop form, making it second nature.

I think Wheel said it best, especially the idea of being able to comfortably take your time, go through that check list, and still have enough ATP left over to repeat the process multiple more times.

For experienced archers that already have their form down, it's not a thing.

But for newbs, it's a thing.

This is why I think for newbs, take downs are the way to go.
Start with light limbs - repetition, repetition, repetition x 100s - then, work up.

And one can always trade up later.

But that's just my opinion. People are free to do as they wish.

[wheelgunslinger]

Well, that's why they make chevies and fords, Nem.

[Nematocyst]

^ laughs

[Jason_G]

That's a fair analogy. Except I'd maybe even ratchet it up to something like a 458 winmag.

I don't know, sounds like I'm in an overwhelming minority (as in just me :o), but again, I can only speak from my own experiences. I had zero issues learning on a 45# bow. Maybe if I spent time teaching others to shoot, I would see the evidence to show me that a bow lighter than 40# is necessary for a beginner.

Again, I would never start someone out on a bow that's too heavy for them to shoot properly, and I want to make sure no one thinks I am saying they should. I think I just disagree (or maybe had a misconception?) about how much is too much for most folks. I just wouldn't think of a 40# draw as being too much bow for most folks to learn on (most grown men, anyway). I guess that was my only point of contention.

That being said, it sounds like wheelgunslinger has taught a lot of others to shoot, and if so, then he's seen a much bigger sample size on which to base an opinion. I guess I would defer to his experience if this is the case, and assume that I'm just an oddball :scrutiny:.

I don't know whether that means I'm Ford or Chevy though... :)


Jason

[Nematocyst]

Jason, I'm curious: what's your age and weight?

[wheelgunslinger]

I don't know, sounds like I'm in an overwhelming minority (as in just me ), but again, I can only speak from my own experiences. I had zero issues learning on a 45# bow. Maybe if I spent time teaching others to shoot, I would see the evidence to show me that a bow lighter than 40# is necessary for a beginner.
I'm just not being as clear as I should be.
I mean that one should use a bow at the appropriate draw weight, whatever that weight is.
There's no one size fits all draw weight because of our genetic diversity as a species.

so, yeah we totally agree on that point.

[Nematocyst]

Another issue is that it's a foreign movement to draw a bow with proper form, using back tension,
and not trying to muscle it through the movement with the bicep and posterior deltoid.

I remember a scene in Avatar when Neytiri is trying to teach Jake how to draw a bow properly.

She hit him in the abs to increase the convexity of his draw,
drew his arm back, and called him 'scoun', which is 'moron' in Navi.

http://www.alanbaxteronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/avatar-jake-neytiri.jpg

[Jason_G]

Jason, I'm curious: what's your age and weight?

Right now, or when I started shooting a bow?

When I started, I was probably 19, and a fairly lean 170. I'm still in the same weight range today, but less muscle and more flab, unfortunately. :o

I'm 5'10", FWIW.

ETA: Don't shoot like those blue things ^ :D


Jason

[wheelgunslinger]

I remember a scene in Avatar when Neytiri is trying to teach Jake how to draw a bow properly.

She hit him in the abs to increase the convexity of his draw,
drew his arm back, and called him 'scoun', which is 'moron' in Navi.

That's a great example of how complex and unintuitive it can be to learn shooting a bow with precision.
It's an elder human skill, like using an axe to split wood. It takes time and experience. And it shortens the curve considerably to have a good teacher.
Even if they call you a "scoun." :D
Jennifer Lawrence, who played Katniss in Hunger Games went from zero to hero in a short time thanks to a good teacher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q9-jwi6aig

Stephen Amell, star of the upcoming series "Arrow" (as in Green Arrow) did the same thing and is pretty good.

[GCBurner]

I still prefer a recurve bow to a compound, just for simplicity's sake. Right now I mainly use a Bear takedown with fiberglass limbs in the 55# range. I bought it used, for about half what they currently retail for, and it still works fine.