Detroit woman killed when "hug" discharges firearm


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tydephan
July 9, 2012, 11:33 AM
I'd be interested in learning more details. It seems to me the guy had to be wearing a shoulder holster, based on the details in this article.

Tragic, nonetheless.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/08/detroit-woman-killed-when-hug-triggers-officer-gun-police-say/

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gym
July 9, 2012, 12:12 PM
I'm still trying to figure out how a hug would engage the trigger in a shoulder rig?

303tom
July 9, 2012, 12:13 PM
Another reason for me not to carry a Glock, think I will just stick with my revolver................

Lonestar49
July 9, 2012, 12:16 PM
...

Truth is stranger than fiction -

And I agree, it appears that a shoulder holster was at play here and the question is what type of gun was in it..


Ls

56hawk
July 9, 2012, 12:17 PM
Another reason for me not to carry a Glock, think I will just stick with my revolver................

Didn't see the gun listed in the article, but I would also bet it's a Glock. Another reason I only carry double action guns.

Downeast
July 9, 2012, 12:18 PM
This article has more info. The gun was a .40 cal S&W semiauto department issue carried IWB. Sounds like some horseplay was involved.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120708/NEWS01/120708029/Woman-hugs-off-duty-Detroit-police-officer-151-dies-after-his-gun-goes-off?odyssey=nav%7Chead

DougW
July 9, 2012, 12:20 PM
Shoulder holsters in general are not a good idea IMO.

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 12:28 PM
Okay...

1) How does a S&W go off inside a holster?
2) How does a AD (because in this case, it sounds like it wasn't a ND) from a gun carried IWB send a bullet through the heart and lungs of someone standing behind him?

56hawk
July 9, 2012, 12:29 PM
Waist holster and she got shot in the heart? Oh...

mljdeckard
July 9, 2012, 12:35 PM
Shoulder holsters are perfectly safe when used correctly.

If this was an IWB discharge, there is a LOT more to the story. When I saw the story on FNC, I knew right away there had to be more to it. We all know that this gun did NOT just shoot itself.

tydephan
July 9, 2012, 12:52 PM
This article has more info. The gun was a .40 cal S&W semiauto department issue carried IWB. Sounds like some horseplay was involved.

http://www.freep.com/article/2012070...sey=nav%7Chead
Thanks for the additional info. I'm shocked that this was IWB. Very strange.

Esoxchaser
July 9, 2012, 12:55 PM
Thanks for the additional info. I'm shocked that this was IWB. Very strange.

No story is too strange in Detroit.
I wonder what the truth is.

JerryC
July 9, 2012, 12:58 PM
"The weapon, a department-issued, 40-caliber Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistol, was in a holster worn inside the officer’s waistband and was covered by his shirt,"

Very weird for a gun in a waistband holster to go off and shoot someone in the heart. She must have been dancing low.

the_skunk
July 9, 2012, 01:06 PM
Didn't see the gun listed in the article, but I would also bet it's a Glock. Another reason I only carry double action guns.


I wouldn't own a striker fired pistol with a 5 lb pull. I feel safer with a 1911 cocked - at least you are aware you have a gun that's hot

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 01:09 PM
I wouldn't own a striker fired pistol with a 5 lb pull. I feel safer with a 1911 cocked - at least you are aware you have a gun that's hot

This isn't a case of not knowing whether or not the gun was hot. The woman probably didn't even know he had a gun on him to know wether or not it was hot. Also, a lot of modern striker fired pistols have a striker status indicator and/or loaded chamber indicator.

Certaindeaf
July 9, 2012, 01:09 PM
That was a pistol in his pants!

Very tragic, however it happened. My condolences to the deceased and her family.

Pilot
July 9, 2012, 01:13 PM
It was a S&W M&P, .40 which is standard for Detroit police. Unless he was carrying something else, but I believe I read it was an M&P in another article that had more conclusive language than this one. I can't find the previous article, however.

Detroit police are issued 40-calibur Smith and Wesson handguns designed specifically for military and police personnel.


http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2012/07/godbee_shooting_of_adaisha_mil.html

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 01:19 PM
http://www.freep.com/article/20120708/NEWS01/120708029/Woman-killed-party-after-Detroit-police-officer-s-gun-discharges

This one says the story is changing, as others said she was embraced in a face-to-face hug. Either way, an IWB gun wouldn't be pointed at her heart unless she's a little person.

Cosmoline
July 9, 2012, 01:23 PM
There's no way this could happen in a proper holster (shoulder or otherwise) without someone at least partially removing the pistol and pulling the trigger. I suspect someone screwing around and covering up tracks.

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 01:40 PM
There's no way this could happen in a proper holster (shoulder or otherwise) without someone at least partially removing the pistol and pulling the trigger. I suspect someone screwing around and covering up tracks.

One guess on another forum was that the gun got partially pulled out of the holster through dancing (and possibly through her...erm...embracing around the belt), and when it got pushed back in, the shirt got caught in the trigger guard and it went off. Most IWB holsters do not have retention straps. Still doesn't explain how it hit her in the chest.

gfanikf
July 9, 2012, 02:23 PM
One guess on another forum was that the gun got partially pulled out of the holster through dancing (and possibly through her...erm...embracing around the belt), and when it got pushed back in, the shirt got caught in the trigger guard and it went off. Most IWB holsters do not have retention straps. Still doesn't explain how it hit her in the chest.
The gun could have been tilted in someway. I keep thinking about that horrible video where a kid grabs a gun carried in a shoulder holster and shoots a relative, but that required someone grabbing it...which is what could have happened and no one wants to say that or honest to goodness the officer didn't see.

Another reason is either/both height difference and ricochet, there is a reason we don't shoot at certain objects or terrain. A dance floor might have properties that prompt a bullet ricocheting more.

7thCavScout
July 9, 2012, 02:24 PM
Even though no weapon type was identified (later ID as a S&W) here come the Glock haters in 3...2...1...Oh, I'm too late already.

SlamFire1
July 9, 2012, 02:27 PM
The grieving mother asks: "If you’re at a party, why do you need a weapon with a round in the chamber?”

That is a good question.

gym
July 9, 2012, 02:29 PM
Lay off the glock nonsense, she obviouslly was playing around with his gun, they aren't going to come out and say it, but guns don't magically flip upside down and go off.
My guess is she knew it was a gun, and was busting his chops. Maybe dancing with another woman. She kenw that tugging at his gun would get his attention, she just didn't realize that it could go off. That's my best guess. And makes the most sense. Glocks don't go off in shoulder holsters or any other holster made for them.

Godsgunman
July 9, 2012, 02:33 PM
This is why I am a big fan of external safeties. I have an old police issue S&W 6904 that I carry and the safety is always engaged when theres one in the pipe. Flipping the safety off as I draw is like second nature and doesn't take any longer to draw. That said it still doesn't make sense how she would get hit in the chest from IWB holster without the gun being outside the holster and angled up.

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 02:40 PM
The grieving mother asks: "If you’re at a party, why do you need a weapon with a round in the chamber?”

That is a good question.

The only time there's not a round in my chamber is if the slide is locked back or I'm doing cleaning/maintenance on it. I believe if you carry, you should carry everywhere. So, if I were ever at a party (I don't party at all), I would have a loaded weapon.

Texan Scott
July 9, 2012, 02:46 PM
It's an odd sort of gun that goes off when nobody has pulled a trigger... and an odd sort of holster that leaves the trigger exposed when the gun is holstered and concealed. A "hug" made it "go off"? I'm tapping out BRAVO SIERRA on that one... somebody's not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but...

4thPointOfContact
July 9, 2012, 02:49 PM
Whoever heard of something bad happening at a party?

Sorry, but that's a bit like saying "Who needs seatbelts when you're just in the Walmart parking lot" or "Who needs medical insurance when you're sleeping in bed" or even "Who needs a gun when you're shopping for groceries, just going to the bank, sitting around at home and watching television?"

You carry always and you carry in the same manner, trying to remember if you chambered a round or didn't in the middle of being attacked is likely not to end well.

skeeziks
July 9, 2012, 02:57 PM
Please remember this was an off-duty LEO....

Can you say "Cover Up?"

Fishslayer
July 9, 2012, 02:58 PM
Very weird for a gun in a waistband holster to go off and shoot someone in the heart. She must have been dancing low.

I can visualize at least one scenario, and it's NOT very High Road...:uhoh:

I would guess there's "more to the story" that we'll never really know.

Party... 0030... Hmmmm.... No chance of horseplay gone wrong I suppose.

ClickClickD'oh
July 9, 2012, 03:00 PM
When I read the first story about this earlier today my first thought was, "someone isn't telling the truth"... but then I thought.. hug from behind, heart lung shot, discharge by contact... maybe a striker fired pistol in one of those spandex shirts with the underarm pockets. I could see a trigger getting pulled in one of those things.

... But IWB? I'm back to "someone isn't telling the truth"

X-Rap
July 9, 2012, 03:02 PM
Detroit is pretty close to Chicago in terms of corruption in its city gov. so I would doubt that there will be a clear resolution soon, maybe in a year or two if someone files a FOIA request but by then nobody will care.

bluethunder1962
July 9, 2012, 03:07 PM
I was thinking the same thing 303tom when I heard it.

BullfrogKen
July 9, 2012, 03:11 PM
Assuming that both

- everyone is telling the truth, and
- the article attempted to tell the story as accurately as they could understand it


I can envision a scenario where that might happen.


The Officer is grabbed from behind by a person he doesn't know. She makes contact with his gun and it begins to come out. He interprets this as an assualt, a gun grab. He does what his training dictates as an immediate response. She gets thrown to the ground as he shoves the gun back in the holster to retain it. And the gun goes off in the process.


I could also see that scenario as:

- hard to explain to a gun-stupid media;
- hard to tell the mother of this dead girl that her daughter was a little too flirty with a stranger, who was dancing with his wife at the time, and she ended up getting shot when her frisky behavior was interpreted as an assault..

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 03:16 PM
Good scenario bullfrog. Although I think even the gun-stupid media would understand him responding by throwing her, I think its a fact they would have left out.

Of course, as Dr. House says, "everybody lies."

verdun59
July 9, 2012, 03:19 PM
This one reeks of misinformation.

BullfrogKen
July 9, 2012, 03:28 PM
Perhaps I phrased it wrong.


I don't mean to say he threw her to the ground.


But his response to an act he interpretted as an assault could have knocked her down and that's where she was at the moment the gun went off.


Perhaps the police spokesperson decided not to comment on that, wisely discerning ahead of time that someone would take this story and run it as the police officer intentionally throwing the girl to the ground, but shooting her unintentionally. That's a hard sell.

And the spokesperson is left with trying to explain that it was all just a big misunderstanding, that the officer mistook her playful grope as an assault, and his proper, justified response to a misunderstood touch ended her death. That's a real hard sell.


Perhaps the media reporting the story got the facts wrong. Happens all the time. I've seen stories reported about me personally, and if I wasn't there I wouldn't have recognized the news report from the facts of the day.


Who knows. The best way for the police spokesperson to play it right now is to not comment much on the specifics; let the internal investigation run its course; and let their report describe how it happened.

k-frame
July 9, 2012, 03:32 PM
New news:

Detroit Police Chief Ralph Godbee said Monday the gun was in a waist holster made of soft material that would have allowed the trigger to be pulled. He says there's no evidence the officer fired the gun. The chief believes the gun discharged after Miller hugged the officer around his waist.

Full text (which isn't much more): http://www.wgme.com/template/inews_wire/wires.national/3746c11f-www.wgme.com.shtml

ETA: And more:

"I don't think I'm giving anything away by saying this but for the sake of transparency, it is possible for the trigger to be manipulated with that type of holster," Godbee said. "Typically the barrel is facing down, but the preliminary investigation indicates that there was some manipulation along the officer's waistline that he did not control and subsequently the weapon discharged."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/detroit-woman-dead-hugging-cop-discharging-gun/story?id=16740721#.T_sx-ZG3Mgc

skeeziks
July 9, 2012, 03:35 PM
that the officer mistook her playful grope as an assault.
But this was a party....why would there be an assault at a party? ~ :rolleyes:

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 03:38 PM
Hmmm...k-frame's article seems to make Bullfrog's explanation not fit; it looks like the chief is saying her actions pulled the trigger. Doesn't explain the trajectory.

Bullfrog, I wasn't saying it like he threw her to the ground and fired. My response if someone grabbed me from behind would be to lock my arm over theirs and roll them over my hip (if they grabbed my arms, I would drop, elbow, and then roll over my shoulder). This would result in them being on the ground, but not necessarily because I intended to throw them on the ground.

BullfrogKen
July 9, 2012, 03:48 PM
Who knows what exactly happened. I can tell you we're not going to get a good explanation from the media telling us what they thought they heard as it wait explained to them in the first few hours of the investigation.


We won't know the explanation this anytime soon.


I'll wait to hear the results from the internal affair investigation.

CWL
July 9, 2012, 03:57 PM
When I first read this, my only guess was that he was carrying a Nambu in a Miami Vice shoulder rig, only way a pistol could shoot itself when hugged from behind.

I think all the evidence is there, bullet hole entry angle & any scorch marks from possible contact-distance shooting in the deceased, along with the scorch marks in LEO's clothing from the discharged weapon and any propellant residue on his hands if he really fired the weapon.

Just a matter of proper forensic analysis of the evidence to determine what really happened.

skeeziks
July 9, 2012, 04:07 PM
I think all the evidence is there, bullet hole entry angle & any scorch marks from possible contact-distance shooting in the deceased, along with the scorch marks in LEO's clothing from the discharged weapon and any propellant residue on his hands if he really fired the weapon.

Just a matter of proper forensic analysis of the evidence to determine what really happened.

Evidence can easily be covered up.

recondoc
July 9, 2012, 04:09 PM
Years ago, when Glocks were first coming onto the scene, I was working the ER. We had a Sheriff's Deputy come in with a .45 Black Talon round on the lateral condile of his right knee from his issue Glock 20. He claimed that the "Gun without a safely just went off". After some Morphine for the pain, and the additional fact that the guys working on him were more familiar with the Glock than he was, we got to the root of the problem. IA just happened by about the time that the Morphine was really kicking in as well.
The holster he was using had a retention safety strap designed to go around the rear of the slide when the gun was securely holstered. The Deputy was re-holstering his weapon, in an office mind you, when upon meeting resistance, he pushed down harder. The retention strap had entered the trigger guard and engaged the trigger. Add the extra downward force and BOOM! Hello knee surgery. He managed to engage the bang switch without even using his booger hook.
There are ways where the "holstered" M&P.40 in question could have gone off but they are extreme, as in the case above and, it points out that it doesn't happen without somebody making it happen.
As to how the round traveled UP from a waistband holster is another mystery all together. With Detroit style law enforcement in action, we should promptly have all the facts in about 120 years.
Doc

mdauben
July 9, 2012, 04:16 PM
The grieving mother asks: "If you’re at a party, why do you need a weapon with a round in the chamber?”
Because people get attacked at parties all the time? Because (perhaps? Don't know relevent dept policy) his Department might require off-duty officers to always be armed? Because an unloaded gun is a poor club?

That is a good question.
Not really. I feel very sorry for the victim's family, but just carrying a loaded weapon at a party did not lead to this tragedy. The question isn't why an LEO was carrying off-duty, the question is what did he, the victim or someone else do to cause the weapon to discharge.

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 04:19 PM
.45 Black Talon round on the lateral condile of his right knee from his issue Glock 20

How did he shoot a .45 out of a 10mm pistol? This story is also of a gun being fired while being holstered, as opposed to being fired while holstered. Two different scenarios. One must always take care there is nothing in the way as you holster the pistol (a reason why I am wary of retention straps).

I'm still a little curious as to how the gun would have turned at such an angle to shoot her in the chest. Even if she's 5'0 and he's 6'4, the gun would still need to turn more than 90 degrees from standard IWB position to get that kind of trajectory. That's an aweful lot of "manipulation".

ETA:

Because (perhaps? Don't know relevent dept policy) his Department might require off-duty officers to always be armed?

Pretty much every article said that officers are allowed, but not required, to carry while off duty.

skeeziks
July 9, 2012, 04:42 PM
I'm still a little curious as to how the gun would have turned at such an angle to shoot her in the chest. Even if she's 5'0 and he's 6'4, the gun would still need to turn more than 90 degrees from standard IWB position to get that kind of trajectory. That's an aweful lot of "manipulation".

He could have been bent over 90 degrees to his legs.
It said she hugged him around the waist. If he was tall and she was real short, this could have positioned her chest area right around his beltline.
I've actually had a woman grab me around the waist from behind, in just such a manner, and when she did she pulled me backwards which made my upper body go parallel to the floor. Had I been wearing a holster with a forward cant, the muzzle might have been pointing right at her chest.

Time to go an try some reenacting....

recondoc
July 9, 2012, 04:42 PM
Oops...... Model 21.
Doc

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 04:44 PM
I forget that a lot of you ol' duffers wear your belt a bit higher than I wear mine. When I bend over, the gun shifts, but about half-way between my legs and torso.

BullfrogKen
July 9, 2012, 04:45 PM
Yeah?

Well pull your pants up, young man.

gym
July 9, 2012, 04:51 PM
Ok sohe had an upside down carry rig, My ppk's was caried that way in a shoulder holster. soft leather, "a la james bond", easily explains it. The gun faces upwards, the thump safety needs to be released for the gun to drop out. She was behind him, her finger entered the trigger gaurd "right through the lambskin holster, and bang" right through the open hole in the holster and into the first thing it hits. Mine fell out once. They were dangerous to carry.

JohnBT
July 9, 2012, 04:55 PM
"The chief believes the gun discharged after Miller hugged the officer around his waist."

I don't think the chief knows what a waist hug is. Or maybe he does. ;)

lemaymiami
July 9, 2012, 05:20 PM
Enjoyed reading the various speculations about this incident.... Noted that since most are above board they're actually taking this account at face value. On the street you quickly learn that whatever explanation you get after someone's been shot probably should have started with "Once upon a time...."

If I sound cynical - it was an occupational hazard. I personally handled several shootings where the victim survived and was clearly complicit in covering up the actual circumstances in whatever firearm mis-adventure had taken place.... If a badge is involved the tendency to try to "clean things up" is no different than if a citizen is involved.

The only scenario I never encountered was the officer suicide that included having all the gun cleaning gear out on the table.... but I retired out after only 22 years.

essayons21
July 9, 2012, 05:22 PM
Wow some of you are really showing your age by the wonderment at how this could possibly happen while dancing.

If you go to any party in the present day frequented by late teenagers to early twenties, the music will probably be some form of dance, house, or hip-hop. The style of dancing will be grinding, or as a casual observer would describe it - dry humping.

An entirely plausible scenario:

Off-duty officer is bent over at the waist, angling the barrel of his gun 90 degrees to the rear. The woman "hugs" him by grabbing his hips, placing one of her digits over and in the trigger guard through a cheap nylon holster. A little gyrating and the gun goes off. Traditionally the male and female roles are reversed in this position, but stranger things have happened.

Combine a relatively tall man, a relatively short woman, a forward cant on the holster, and probably more than a little bit of shifting and you have a heart shot.

If police departments issue holsters for off duty carry, they are usually the cheapest crap they can get. If the department does not issue holsters, many officers are cheap, and will buy that same crap.

Nushif
July 9, 2012, 05:38 PM
If you go to any party in the present day frequented by late teenagers to early twenties, the music will probably be some form of dance, house, or hip-hop. The style of dancing will be grinding, or as a casual observer would describe it - dry humping.

Are you trying to tell me they weren't doing the slow waltz and foxtrot?! How uncouth!

But the guy is right, there is a small segment of the population that considers dancing to be a rather vigorous as well as acrobatic activity. Hence I don't take my gun to metal concerts.
Cause when I do my vigorous waltzing there is the chance that I lose my gun. And that's expensive. Or deadly. Yup. Waltzing. 8)

Pilot
July 9, 2012, 06:15 PM
This whole thing stinks. It is sad and tragic. However, notice the sole focus of the victim's mother. The gun. Why did he have a gun? Why did he have a gun in his own house? Why did he have a gun at his own party? Why didn't the gun have a "safety"?

I think its a deflection. My questions would be. Why was she grabbing a married man dancing with his wife? Why was shy "flirty"? Why did she grab him enough to cause a gun to discharge?

Instead of focuing on the gun as they all do, focus on the actions of the girl, and the cop.

Certaindeaf
July 9, 2012, 06:17 PM
Maybe they were playing Twister and didn't want to fess up.

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 06:18 PM
I think its a deflection. My questions would be. Why was she grabbing a married man dancing with his wife? Why was shy "flirty"? Why did she grab him enough to cause a gun to discharge?

I agree its a deflection, but we don't know whether or not this lady is an anti or if she'd just upset. I disagree with her, and have very valid reasons why I carry a loaded gun.

However, I don't see why we should blame this individual. Some couples are swingers, or like to add an extra person. Just because the relationship isn't monogomous doesn't mean it's a problem.

The issue, in this case, largely appears to be the holster, and possibly the choice of attire. A proper kydex or leather holster, or even a think nylon holster, would have prevented this tragedy. A cloth holster like an Uncle Mike's is basically just something that holds the gun in place and is NOT a safety device.

bikerdoc
July 9, 2012, 06:31 PM
Interal affairs might sort it out. Until then it is a media complicit BS coverup story.

Pilot
July 9, 2012, 06:34 PM
However, I don't see why we should blame this individual. Some couples are swingers, or like to add an extra person. Just because the relationship isn't monogomous doesn't mean it's a problem.

I hear what you are saying, but if the individual hadn't "grabbed" or "hugged" the cop none of this would have happened. If he invited her to grab him, then he is part of the causality. The holster may have contributed, but the individuals caused the discharge, not the holster or gun.

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 06:44 PM
I hear what you are saying, but if the individual hadn't "grabbed" or "hugged" the cop none of this would have happened. If he invited her to grab him, then he is part of the causality. The holster may have contributed, but the individuals caused the discharge, not the holster or gun.

If he is concealed carrying, then she had no way of knowing that grabbing him would result in her touching a firearm. Their actions may have contributed to the accident, but the reason I look for the fault is to learn - how do we prevent this? So is the answer:
1) Do not ever touch another person while they have clothes on, for fear that they might have a pistol and it might discharge.
-or-
2) Use a holster that prevents manipulation of the trigger while the pistol is holstered.

I think option 2 is a more realistic bet, and more likely to prevent ADs from happening. After all, it doesn't have to be a finger in the trigger guard to cause problems.

BullfrogKen
July 9, 2012, 06:51 PM
Yeah, but he knew.

How about don't do the body-grind boogie with strange women while you've got a gun on?

Since we've delved into open marriage arrangements and swinging, I'm pulling up my pants and leaving.

wdyasq
July 9, 2012, 07:01 PM
http://www.windstream.net/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9VTKKA01%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=931

Still trying to figure out this one but.....

"The gun's angle also is at question, according to David Balash, a former Michigan State Police firearms examiner.

"What's going to be very important here is the angle of the entry of the wound to the victim (and) if there is in fact any gunpowder residue," Balash said. "I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding how a weapon that's pointed at the ground can be turned literally 110 degrees minimum to be in an upward position to strike someone.""

Ron

Fanfare Ends
July 9, 2012, 07:08 PM
"The grieving mother asks: "If you’re at a party, why do you need a weapon with a round in the chamber?”"

"Where is Detroit?", Alex..

mgkdrgn
July 9, 2012, 07:18 PM
Bill Clinton might be able to explain how it happened...
ahhhhh yep

230RN
July 9, 2012, 07:49 PM
"It depends on what your definition of 110 degrees is."

I'm just being frivolous, but I couldn't resist. It sure is a wierd one. My sympathy to all concerned.

I'm not too familiar with the Glock series, but I know that with one well-used full-cock striker fired .22 pistol I have, it is possible to fire it by manipulating the slide.

Due to wear between the striker and its channel and the slide and the frame, there is enough clearance for the striker to slip off the sear and discharge the cartridge. It can also happen if the pistol is dropped on its slide, as I know from (unloaded) experimentation. One of these days I'm going to saw the damned thing in half and be done with it. It's a cheapie Sterling, but I wonder if the same thing can happen with poly-framed guns. (No, I'm not knocking Glocks or the new S&W M&P or others.)

So I'm thinking maybe something like that had something to do with the tragedy. Just a little twist or uplift of the slide off the frame, and bang.

Terry, 230RN

Skribs
July 9, 2012, 07:51 PM
There still is "no justification" for her daughter's death, said McNair, 44.

This isn't a shooting where the claim is that it was justified, the claim is that it was an accident. I don't think anyone is claiming that her daughter's death was justified.

9mmepiphany
July 9, 2012, 10:28 PM
If you go to any party in the present day frequented by late teenagers to early twenties, the music will probably be some form of dance, house, or hip-hop. The style of dancing will be grinding, or as a casual observer would describe it - dry humping.
The term they use at school dances is "freaking"...as in "Freak dancing will not be allowed"...so teachers are no longer walking around with rulers :rolleyes:

There are also several dances which entail bending at the knees...as in doing a squat...much like the old Limbo dances

orionengnr
July 9, 2012, 10:51 PM
If a badge is involved the tendency to try to "clean things up" is no different than if a citizen is involved.
Au Contraire, Pierre. If a badge is involved, the tendency is multiplied by a factor of 10...at the minimum.

I predict that we will never hear a satisfactory explanation of what actually happened.

--Greiving mom will get paid off to the tune of several million at taxpayer expense.
--Officer will remain "suspended with pay" for a period of time...then be re-instated.
--No harm (well, not much, unless you are the victim), no foul (unless you are a taxpayer).

Nothing to see here, move along folks...

Do I sound cynical? Or just wise to the ways of the world?

Centurian22
July 9, 2012, 11:56 PM
Very tragic, very curious. I, as others have said would like to know what / how this really happened.

Pilot
July 10, 2012, 06:06 AM
2) Use a holster that prevents manipulation of the trigger while the pistol is holstered.

I think option 2 is a more realistic bet, and more likely to prevent ADs from happening. After all, it doesn't have to be a finger in the trigger guard to cause problems.


Agreed. The holster may have contributed. We will probably never know the truth though.

I predict that we will never hear a satisfactory explanation of what actually happened.

--Greiving mom will get paid off to the tune of several million at taxpayer expense.
--Officer will remain "suspended with pay" for a period of time...then be re-instated.
--No harm (well, not much, unless you are the victim), no foul (unless you are a taxpayer).

^^^^^^^This. That is why the mother is demonizing the gun and possible negligence by cop for having a loaded gun on at his own party. It will come down to money in the end. Always does.

The Man With No Name
July 10, 2012, 10:21 AM
Maybe they were playing Twister and didn't want to fess up.
I've never heard it called playing Twister but every time in my life a "dance" got that interesting I sure wasn't in public still and I sure made sure I had time to take my gun off.

As to why an off duty leo would carry a loaded weapon, well I know we are talking about a grieving mother but that is a borderline silly question.

Skribs
July 10, 2012, 10:57 AM
How about don't do the body-grind boogie with strange women while you've got a gun on?

I'm wondering if he had a better holster if he could have still had fun to his heart's content without a safety issue.

Man with no name, Twister is a game where someone spins a wheel while everyone else is on a mat with different colored circles. When the wheel lands on a color/limb, you have to put that limb on that color circle, which often involves twisting and contorting your body. Fun game for kids because its a bit silly, fun game for adults because of the close proximity and awkward positions.

Greg528iT
July 10, 2012, 11:58 AM
How about this? He's standing there, she comes up hugs him around the waist, pulling him backwards.. as he steps back to regain balance, her legs tuck between his and she starts to fall back. He continues to back up, she continues to fall, reaching and grabbing for a hand hold, finds the gun. This now puts the officer standing over her, her near parallel to the floor UNDER the muzzle of the gun. ??????????????

Though I would imagine that grabbing at the gun while falling like that would likely put the bullet in the officers buttock.

pikid89
July 10, 2012, 12:03 PM
Interesting scenario greg...having been to several college parties where people were highly intoxicated, i can see that exact scenario working out

tydephan
July 10, 2012, 02:56 PM
I would concur that the above scenario is plausible, but it seems to me that if that WERE the case, the story would have been framed by his department and/or the media as "shot while falling down" or something along those lines.

All of this is just conjecture. I hope the more cynical of you are proven wrong and we eventually find out what truly transpired.

I carry this same gun every day in a CTAC IWB holster.

Skribs
July 10, 2012, 03:06 PM
Tyde, is that a Comp Tac? I have one for my XD, seems pretty good. You're not going to hit the trigger while it's in the holster. Plus, they include a pack of Smarties in the box whenever I get a holster from them!

Texan Scott
July 10, 2012, 03:39 PM
Scenario: Alcohol, strip poker, Twister mat, lime jello (either as shots, or more likely in the blow-up kiddie pool in the kitchen)... and somebody is STILL not tellling the whole story.

tydephan
July 10, 2012, 03:46 PM
Tyde, is that a Comp Tac?
Yes sir. It's the most comfortable IWB holster I've found, and it keeps my gun darn secure. Of course I don't do the stank leg with it on, or any other type of "freak dancing". :D

Comptac is a good company. They get the majority of my business when I need kydex gear. And the smarties don't hurt.

Eb1
July 10, 2012, 04:32 PM
What if she hugged him from the side, and picked him up. Then bounced him around? You know how you pick someone up and kinda toss them. You know.. A Bear Hug.

With the bouncing him up in her arms she jiggled the gun loose, and the trigger was pulled. Either by the shirt, her button of her shirt, jewelry, etc...

the_skunk
July 10, 2012, 05:24 PM
Adaisha Miller was on her knees while dancing behind an off-duty Detroit police officer early Sunday when his holstered gun fired, striking her in the chest, a police official said told the Free Press today.

The official said that explains how Miller was shot in the chest while dancing behind Officer Isaac Parrish during a fish fry early Sunday at his home on Archdale.

The official said the angle of the gunshot is possible because Miller was not standing and described it as some type of "exotic dance" where Miller, 24, was tugging at Parrish’s waist.

Miller’s family members strongly disputed that account today.

“That’s just not plausible,” said Yolanda McNair, Miller’s mother.

==================================================


This is the 12th version of this cop's story.


http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/viewart/20120710/NEWS04/120710013/Detroit-mom-questions-how-daughter-shot-during-hug

Skribs
July 10, 2012, 05:51 PM
Source, skunk?

BullfrogKen
July 10, 2012, 06:27 PM
Adaisha Miller was on her knees while dancing behind an off-duty Detroit police officer early Sunday when his holstered gun fired, striking her in the chest, a police official said told the Free Press today

Police: Party-goer was on her knees dancing when officer's holstered gun went off (http://www.freep.com/article/20120710/NEWS01/120710037/Police-officer-gun-holstered-Adaisha-Miller?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE)

Here, it seems.


Same story also says this -

McNair said she was told by witnesses at the hospital that her daughter and Parrish were side by side and she got a birthday hug from Parrish when the gun went off.

Some weird stuff was going on there, and the stories are not adding up.

Teachu2
July 10, 2012, 06:36 PM
Yeah...yeah, that's it! She was dancing! And his pants were on, well - saggin' ....

Tragic, no matter how it happened. For all we know, she grabbed him to pull herself off the floor.

S&W will probably get sued.

Skribs
July 10, 2012, 06:39 PM
Probably the girl's friend didn't want to tell the mom she was doing an exotic dance with a guy she didn't know. The mom sounds like she is just trying blame the officer at this point, with things like: "If she were on her knees, she would have been shot in the head, not the heart", as well as apparently not knowing the types of dance moves used.

It's a tragedy, but based on this report it sounds like a freak accident that I still believe could have been prevented with a proper holster. I don't understand how manufacturers get away with making cheap holsters that literally do nothing to protect the trigger.

the_skunk
July 10, 2012, 06:44 PM
http://www.theholsterstore.net/avactis-images/004_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_1_0_0_1_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_0_2_1.JPG

BullfrogKen
July 10, 2012, 07:18 PM
Blame the holster, Skribs? Blame the company who made the holster?


Really?


How about some personal responsibility here.


The Officer chose that holster. No one made him buy it.

He chose to engage in activity that appeared more physical than anyone really wants to talk publicly about. He chose to do it while he was armed with that substandard holster.


Personal responsibility my friend.


The sad thing is reports are coming out that there was some really spicy dancing on, the kind of dancing you don't like to talk about when the buzz wears off and your head hurts the next morning. Everyone involved now seems ashamed of their behavior, and find it difficult to disclose.

essayons21
July 10, 2012, 07:31 PM
BullfrogKen,

Keep in mind that many departments issue holsters for off-duty carry, and if carrying in a different holster is allowed, it usually comes from an approved list and can be a PITA to meet the department standards to be allowed to use that holster.

For example, my employer issues a POS uncle mikes OWB pancake style nylon holster with the cheapo plastic retention strap, and we must use it until we have an opportunity to run through the full qualification course using our own personal holster, which must be from a list of approved manufacturers. It can take 6 months or more to get to the range to get a holster approved due to budget constraints and scheduling.

If it was a department issued holster or a department mandated holster, I forsee a settlement. If it was a personal holster choice, and it was within department policy, there will be a quick policy change re: off-duty holsters, and probably still a settlement.

So there may be some legitimate blame residing with the department with regards to the holster. As far as the dirty dancing while armed, that certainly shows poor judgement and an overall lack of responsibility on the part of this officer.

BullfrogKen
July 10, 2012, 07:48 PM
The media have repeatedly reported the police spokesperson saying there is no policy on off-duty holsters.

Skribs
July 10, 2012, 07:54 PM
Bullfrog, you're correct, he was wearing the holster, so it is partly his fault. However, I don't see a purpose for a holster that doesn't protect the trigger, so yes - I blame the manufacturer on this as well.

FM12
July 10, 2012, 08:03 PM
During a "lap dance" for the win!

BullfrogKen
July 10, 2012, 08:04 PM
Personal responsibility, dude.


The holster manufacturer never claimed it would protect the gun while doing the jiggy-freak dance and your partner fondels your gun.

And it our responsibility not to choose a holster when doing the jiggy-freak dance, because we know it's not secure.

Agsalaska
July 10, 2012, 09:43 PM
A couple of thoughts.

1. I will not try to make any sense out of, try to understand, or in any way consider the comments made by the mother. She is experiencing a worst nightmare and has my deepest sympathy. I feel terrible for her.

2. If I were questioning the Cop, question number 1 would be 'why did you have a gun on a dance floor after midnight in a soft holster.' That is ill advised at least and quite possibly negligent.

3. From what I can tell, the girl did absolutely nothing wrong.

4. I get the feeling, referring back to comments 2 and 3, that the vast majority of you have never seen what an inner city after midnight sales floor in many years. Good for you.

mgkdrgn
July 11, 2012, 09:48 AM
"Detroit Police Chief Ralph Godbee said Monday the gun was in a waist holster made of soft material that would have allowed the trigger to be pulled."

Horse poop

Eb1
July 11, 2012, 11:10 AM
3. From what I can tell, the girl did absolutely nothing wrong.

Well you could speculate that the girl was using the gun out of the holster doing some pretty "jiggy-freak" moves with a certain body part beginning with "C" that runs vertical on a females chest.
Pulling the trigger not even expecting the gun to go BANG!!! In which case she did "Rule #1" wrong. Then more wrong from there.

Please, I tried to stay as High Road as possible.

Skribs
July 11, 2012, 12:07 PM
How she was dancing isn't relevant to the legality or safety of the problem, merely to explain the trajectory. It doesn't seem like she violated rule #1 intentionally. It sounds like she grabbed at his belt line (probably related to either the dance moves or to pull herself up) and her finger inadvertently manipulated the trigger through pants and holster.

I'd also say this is probably a good reason to look a the lever-style safety on a Glock trigger over the hinged safety on a M&P. The Glock safety requires you to pull the trigger from the middle in order to pull the trigger all the way rear.

tydephan
July 11, 2012, 12:13 PM
I'd also say this is probably a good reason to look a the lever-style safety on a Glock trigger over the hinged safety on a M&P. The Glock safety requires you to pull the trigger from the middle in order to pull the trigger all the way rear.
Or, perhaps make the decision to carry in a decent holster.

ANY gun I carry that doesn't have some type of manual safety gets carried in a kydex holster that has some level of retention and COMPLETELY covers the trigger guard.

In my opinion, the blame here can be placed squarely on the officer's decision to engage in THIS activity whilst carrying a gun in what has seemingly been described as a substandard holster.

Hopefully we'll know more in the near future.

BCCL
July 11, 2012, 12:15 PM
I can't for the life of me imagine a scenario here, where the officer is not responsible, if for no other reason that engaging in this conduct while armed...........

End of the day, it's HIS responsibility to conduct himself properly and safely.

Skribs
July 11, 2012, 12:23 PM
Or, perhaps make the decision to carry in a decent holster.

I had already been advocating this point. I fail to see how the hinge safety works, except to prevent something at the top of the trigger guard from pulling. The lever safety prevents a glancing snag from pulling the trigger.

if for no other reason that engaging in this conduct while armed...........

Him being armed wasn't the issue. Choice in holster was.

X-Rap
July 11, 2012, 12:35 PM
It's hard for me not to look at the guy carrying the gun and not hold them at fault. You have a guy that is carrying a gun in what appears to be a substandard holster engaging in what we never may know at a party in the wee hours. We don't even know if he or the woman were intoxicated.
It took a bunch of circumstances to come together for this tragedy and there were forks in the road along the way in which it could have been avoided as usual. You can call this armchair quarter backing or what ever but he as the carrier of the gun made some bad decisions.

BullfrogKen
July 11, 2012, 01:57 PM
We don't even know if he or the woman were intoxicated.

Police spokesperson said the Officer underwent a field sobriety test at the scene, but not a breathalyzer. He passed the field sobriety test.


Like most tragic accidents in life, a series of bad decisions compounded to ultimately result in a terrible outcome.

X-Rap
July 11, 2012, 05:17 PM
He used poor judgement and should have been taken in for a drug/tox screening, if he was clean then he has nothing to blame but his own bad judgement.
What about the woman?
If you or I was involved in a killing in Detroit do you think we would be dismissed of any suspicion of drug or alcohol use with a simple field sobriety test done by what probably was a sympathetic officer?

tomrkba
July 11, 2012, 05:40 PM
This is why I am a big fan of external safeties.

Never underestimate the power of stupid.

A friend of mine, LittleLebowski, was shot through the elbow (45 ACP JHP) by a moron handling a 1911 in the back seat. The story is posted on various forums (with pics!).


The real story has not come out (as theorized by other posters). I believe that dancing with a gun is not a dangerous activity; something else happened. I think the real lesson here is don't play with guns regardless of make, model, holster, or situation.

RmB
July 11, 2012, 07:33 PM
If there was alcohol involved, then the officer shouldn't have been carrying.

brboyer
July 11, 2012, 09:43 PM
If there was alcohol involved, then the officer shouldn't have been carrying.
Why? Is that illegal in Michigan, or a violation of department policy when carrying department issued firearm?

opr1945
July 11, 2012, 10:35 PM
Yes.

"According to departmental (Detroit Police Department) policy, 'off-duty officers are prohibited by state law from carrying a firearm if their blood alcohol level is 0.02% or above. In addition, members shall not carry a firearm in situations where an officer's performance may be impaired.' "

http://www.freep.com/article/20120710/NEWS01/207100416/Family-to-police-Why-did-daughter-die-

RmB
July 11, 2012, 10:39 PM
I mean for common sense reasons. Whether alcohol pertains to the shooting is questionable, as the full details have yet to be released. I don't want to be really drunk, and carrying a weapon on me at the same time. Whether you are a LEO or not you can still get into fights. And you may not have all of your reasoning skills with you while under the influence. That was just my opinion. I don't think you should bring your iron to the party.

Edit: As opr1945 just stated, it is in fact against regulation, if the blood alcohol level is 0.02% or more. However my earlier speculation about how he shouldn't have been carrying was not based on this knowlege.

9mmepiphany
July 12, 2012, 12:11 AM
If there was alcohol involved, then the officer shouldn't have been carrying.
Why? Is that illegal in Michigan, or a violation of department policy when carrying department issued firearm?
Yes.
...if their blood alcohol level is 0.02% or above.
You might not be asking and answering the same question.

If I'm reading it correctly, it is not illegal or a violation of policy for an officer to be carrying at a party where alcohol is present/being served. They can be present, they just cannot have an alcohol lever above 0.02% or be impaired

I don't think you should bring your iron to the party.
Do you mean to any party or only one where the CCW is drinking? Remember this occurred in his home...he was armed at his own party.

That is the mother's stance...as well as, that if he did have the gun, it shouldn't have a chambered round

The Man With No Name
July 12, 2012, 10:47 AM
He used poor judgement and should have been taken in for a drug/tox screening, if he was clean then he has nothing to blame but his own bad judgement.
What about the woman?
If you or I was involved in a killing in Detroit do you think we would be dismissed of any suspicion of drug or alcohol use with a simple field sobriety test done by what probably was a sympathetic officer?
We are all making a lot of assumptions but yes I have personally given field sobriety testing and administered a portable breath test during an investigation that involved a fatality. My department does have a policy though that mandates urinalysis for an officer involved in any shooting. It is for our own protection as no family ever wants to admit (which I understand) that their loved one was at fault.

X-Rap
July 12, 2012, 11:14 AM
We are all making a lot of assumptions but yes I have personally given field sobriety testing and administered a portable breath test during an investigation that involved a fatality.
Second one is harder to not be objective with but was apparently not done.
Given a situation in which prison time could be involved if negligence is determined I can't believe the department as well as the officer if he is indeed blameless would want such evidence collected.

RmB
July 12, 2012, 12:01 PM
Do you mean to any party or only one where the CCW is drinking?
I mean a party where he was drinking. It's my opinion that if you invite people to a party where you and others are drinking, the gun needs to stay in your room. Alcohol & Guns do not mix. IMO only..

Double Naught Spy
July 12, 2012, 01:03 PM
That is the mother's stance...as well as, that if he did have the gun, it shouldn't have a chambered round

She also said that if you think you need a gun at a function like that, then don't go. As you noted, it was his own party. How can he not go to his own party, LOL.

Texan Scott
July 12, 2012, 02:24 PM
as regards sobriety testing... i'll share a little military story, short and sweet.
an e-7 stopped one of my e-4s on duty, and said (in the presence of witnesses) that he smelled alcohol. he called me, as the e-4's immediate supe, and asked me if i smelled alcohol on the airman. i said i did not, to which the e-7 replied that i must 'have a cold or something'. he told the e-4 that 'because it was the holidays', he would let him go back to duty ON MY RESPONSIBILITY, and left immediately, looking satisfied with himself.

FIVE other people heard this, and soon other units heard about the 'drunk airman from ** squadron, and the MSgt who let him off'.

i complained, and made it standing policy in my area of responsibility: if there is ANY allegation of impropriety or impairment, EVER, there WILL be insistence on a breathalizer/ blood test. i personally have undergone a blood draw to PROVE my sobriety, KNOWING i had not been drinking. later is too late; an allegation made can't be proven, but it can't be disproven or unsaid, unmade, or withdrawn from circulation after the fact, either.

had it been me, i would have DEMANDED the breathalyzer/ pee cup. had it been in my authority to demand it of ANYONE ELSE, i would've- not proving sobriety is a disservice to the falsely accused. not proving drunkeness is a miscarriage of justice.

alcohol and guns do not mix.

oldcelt
July 12, 2012, 03:21 PM
Yahoo news said iwb holster. he was holstering the gun when grabbed from behind.I don't see how this could have happened if the gun was in a holster.

mgkdrgn
July 12, 2012, 04:08 PM
Yahoo news said iwb holster. he was holstering the gun when grabbed from behind.I don't see how this could have happened if the gun was in a holster.
And this makes how many different stories now...?

9mmepiphany
July 12, 2012, 06:16 PM
had it been me, i would have DEMANDED the breathalyzer/ pee cup. had it been in my authority to demand it of ANYONE ELSE, i would've- not proving sobriety is a disservice to the falsely accused. not proving drunkeness is a miscarriage of justice.
I would have too...but in a possible criminal investigation, especially with the reduced rights of LEOs, it is the responsibility of the investigating agency/officer to make the request

Hugo
July 13, 2012, 10:56 PM
Hard to tell what happened based on the limited info and vague details in the news stories. Was the woman drunk or tipsy or sober?

It's possible she accidentally grabbed the gun through his shirt, pulled it out of the holster, and slipped a finger into the trigger guard and squeezed the trigger all instinctively, and not understanding "oh, this is a gun!". This needs serious CSI work and reconstruction with great detail on exactly where and how she and he were standing, where her and his hands and arms and the pistol were arranged.

This is complicated so don't even try to simplify it. No snap judgements here, just withhold judgement while they investigate.

Elkins45
July 14, 2012, 02:01 PM
Yahoo news said iwb holster. he was holstering the gun when grabbed from behind.I don't see how this could have happened if the gun was in a holster.
Which begs the question of why he had unholstered it in the first place.

As others have commented, how many versions of the story does this make? I am a little surprised we haven't heard a bunch of interviews of the other partygoers. I can't imagine we will ever know the complete truth here.

Gregaw
July 16, 2012, 11:02 AM
Police Chief Godbee said, "the off-duty holster the officer carried was soft enough for the trigger to be manipulated."

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120709/METRO01/207090365#ixzz20nXHd25v

ShadowsEye
July 16, 2012, 11:36 AM
Police Chief Godbee said, "the off-duty holster the officer carried was soft enough for the trigger to be manipulated."

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120709/METRO01/207090365#ixzz20nXHd25v
IWB and soft...wonder if it was a Remora?

BullfrogKen
July 16, 2012, 04:19 PM
How do you know it was an IWB holster?

222327
July 16, 2012, 10:27 PM
Have you used a Remora before?

gym
July 17, 2012, 11:48 AM
Whenever I found myself in a "party atmosphere" and was carrying, usually all the time in NYC. I would slip my gun into my "boot holster" where no one, sometimes not even me, could get at it. This way I could enjoy my night without worrying that someone would see, or feel my weapon. I just wore an ankle holster and always wore larry Mayhem or a few other brands of cowboy boots, I don't think I had shoes back then just 10 pair of boots and sneakers. It wans't a place to "carry" but good in the car, and for storage. Never on my person, never dancing, Not a big dancer anyway. More like those guys on sat. night live.

Double Naught Spy
February 10, 2014, 09:51 AM
After two investigations, there wasn't sufficient evidence to press charges. The officer was never suspended and has not been disciplined.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Officer-cleared-in-backyard-shooting-death-5218429.php

9mmepiphany
February 10, 2014, 03:13 PM
Thanks for the update

Agsalaska
February 10, 2014, 03:25 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but this is why I like external safeties.

Malamute
February 11, 2014, 11:14 AM
^^ I'd suggest you are placing too much faith in external safeties.

I dont recall how many times I've found a Colt 1911 with the safety off when it was in the holster, but it has to be a dozen or more easily. This is in 4 different Colts I've carried (all factory parts), and several holsters, mostly Bianchi thumbreaks. I finally figured out that the gun blank they molded the Bianchi holsters on had the safety OFF and the mold of the holster actually puts pressure on the safety to take it off when carried. I've also found the safety off when carried in a holster that had no leather close to the safety.

Mike J
February 11, 2014, 11:21 AM
Personally I believe using a quality holster that covers the trigger guard is more important than having an external safety. I don't like nylon holsters. Leather, kydex or even molded plastic are preferable in my mind. I suspect this guy was using a junk holster but I could be wrong.

Bert Retta
February 11, 2014, 10:20 PM
I make it a practice not to hug when I carry, period and I also engage my safety when I carry my Striker Fired 40 Ruger and the rest of my EDC firearms have long smooth 8 & 9lb trigger pulls with NO Safeties,You have to squeeze the TRIGGER,You really have to want them to fire.as Far as this Unfortunate Incident there is a lot more to this than we are being told...

Deltaboy
February 12, 2014, 07:52 AM
Prayers sent for that girls family and a sad tale of failing to obey basic gun safety.

Robert
February 12, 2014, 08:44 AM
Thanks for the update but I am not sure beating this one anymore will lead anywhere positive.

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