[Nematocyst]

This is about Kabar's BK-14 'Eskabar',
a steel collaboration between
Becker, ESEE and Kabar.

I've been researching this bare tang :eek: blade for days
while seeking a small (< 3.5") fixed-blade EDC for city and camp.

Hso sent me a link to a large selection of neck knives.

This one wound up in a selection of 5,
but rose to the top over 24 hours.

I've read reviews and watched videos 'til I'm saturated.

It's a chimera of a Becker Necker blade
and the handle of an ESEE Izula,
the best of two worlds in 1095.

Summary: I want one.

Reportedly a good blade, fine handle, paracord wrap = easy,
two sets of scales available (Kabar fit; ESEE Izula works with min adjustments)
stock sheath needs work; order a custom. Makers abound, including on THR (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=667099).

Links (http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/145) and pics to come.

What say you?

Nem

[Nematocyst]

Ok, so, images.

This (http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae15/Chumango42/2010_10280037.jpg) is my favorite so far, even though
I'd rather have it wrapped in foliage 550.

Eskabar v Izula (http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx111/gundude73/beckereskabarwithizula.jpg)

Green 550 (http://afterhourschoppers.com/images/products/422.jpg)

[JShirley]

It's a good little blade, and a great knife for a service member.

It's a little too solid/sturdy for neck carry, IMO.

[JimStC]

Nem,
Take a look at the BK-11. I have one with micarta scales. Think I paid $34 for the knife and $27 for the scales. Very similar to the Eskabar.
The scales fit with no adjustment. I know I am behind on pictures. Travelled all day yesterday and got home around 8:00. My IT Director was in no mood for pictures as she accompanied me and was road weary.

Jim

Edit to add: Beker-11 aka Becker Necker

[hso]

I picked up five Eskabars at the Blade show that were on sale as cosmetic seconds (the finishes would have been marred the first use as much as the "defects" I've been able to find). They also had polymer composite scales available in sets of orange and black (http://www.knifecenter.com/item/KABK14HNDL/KA-BAR-BK14HNDL-Becker-Eskabar-BlackOrange-Handle-Scales) so I picked up a set of those for each Eskabar. I got a great deal on the knives and scales, if you don't count the cost of the trip and the other things I spent money on I didn't need at Blade.:o

I'm not a fan of cord wrapping for knives. Lack of stability, collecting "gunk", unraveling at the least desirable times are all problems that can occur with wrapped grips.

I like the Eskabar, although I like the Becker Necker as well if not better. I like KaBar's quality. I like them even more for their new lines since they took on Ethan's designs (they took off on offering more maker designs after Dozier and Becker). I'm a fan without being a fanboy about it.

[Sam1911]

I've had my hands on them a few times and they're pretty cool. I doubt you'd be unhappy with one!

[bikerdoc]

Nem,
Here is a Becker Neccker I scaled in tiger oak

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg134/bikerdoc1948/IMG_1242.jpg

[Nematocyst]

Just logging on for first time today.
Great to read your views, opinions and advice.
Muchas gracias x 2.

Will reflect some on all this and offer some updated thoughts later,
but after this coffee and raspberry turnover have the appropriate effect on my cerebral cortex.

[Blade First]

"...I like the Becker Necker as well if not better."

Tell us why, hso.

I have two esKabars, one of which is wrapped. Too new to have been carried and used but that will change shortly.

[hso]

The cap lifter/wire breaker in the butt design provides additional utility.

[Nematocyst]

So, a Friday early evening update.

I'm still more fond of the BK-14 than the BK-11, Jim. I just don't need a bottle opener or wire cutter on the back of my EDC (my SOG multi-tool is just a bit deeper in the pack for the rare times I'd need those functions).

Hso, good points re paracord wraps - grunge, coming unraveled, etc. I'd still like to try it once, just for grins, and to see what if feels like first hand in my hand, but will probably get some scales for it. I like the ESEE Izula scales for the Eskabar. I'm reading that they'll fit with a slight mod, and like the open "ring" on the back of the handle for use with RG.

I'm in a busy period with a trip scheduled for tomorrow,
but will eventually post some links to reviews
- written and video - to this thread for completeness.

That's it for now. Keep those cards and letters coming in.

[JimStC]

Nem,
Be safe. Have a profitable trip.

Jim

[Nematocyst]

Thanks, Jim. Just a short one; will be back on Sunday.

[Nematocyst]

PS: I forgot to address John's comment in my Friday evening update.

It's a little too solid/sturdy for neck carry, IMO.

I agree.

It's a belt-carried blade, for sure.

Even the stock sheath is way too big for neck,
as more than one reviewer pointed out.

And a far better belt sheath can be made by skilled makers.

[Jason_G]

I like it, Nem. I would definitely get/make some scales though. Not a fan of paracord or "butt nekkid" tangs (man that just sounds like it would give Art's grammaw a coronary, but you know what I mean). Good looking knife.

Jason

[JShirley]

The Eskabar can work for pocket carry...if you have deep pockets, and one you can dedicate to JUST the knife.

[JimStC]

John,
Whether I have on jeans or cargo shorts, I carry the BK-11 and a Benchmade 9100 in my right pocket. The Neckker is flat enough to do that without printing.
On the other hand when I go to the office and have on thinner material wool pants, I only carry the Neckker.

Jim

[Nematocyst]

Good to see you here, Jason. Knives and archery go together well. ;)

Question about pocket carry of something like this: how can one deploy it quickly from a pocket? With belt carry (or neck), the sheath is stationary (relatively) so the blade comes out quickly. But I'm assuming not with pocket carry, right?

Do you have to draw the whole then, then hold the sheath to draw the blade?

That seems to defeat the purpose. That's no faster than a folder.

Am I missing something?

[JimStC]

Nem,
May I offer my technique? I grasp the sheath with my left hand as I am drawing the knife out. Sheath stays in the pocket. Is it faster than my EDC auto? Doubt it.
Alternatively have a sheath designed that incorporates the pistol/revolver holster which is designed to grab the sides of the pocket. I have one of these and I have never pulled the revolver and the holster at the same time.

Jim

[Nematocyst]

Ah, interesting. Yes, I can see how that could work.
___________

Added by edit after a bit of reflection.

Even though I understand how holding the sheath in place with one hand while drawing with the other could work, I don't think it's a good strategy for SD situations. To much action, too much intention communicated; and besides, the other hand may be tied up, so to speak.

So I think the idea of a sheath that 'sticks' to the inside of a pocket is a better idea.

But I still want to belt carry this knife, Eskabar or what ever I wind up with. I think it'll be easier for EDC use and SD use (hopefully never, but ...), and I like my pockets for other stuff.

[Sam1911]

When I've done pocket sheaths, I've done them as very minimalist items that attach to a lanyard. The lanyard goes to the belt and just tethers the sheath to the belt. When you draw the knife, the sheath is popped off as the knife comes up, and then hangs there without getting lost as you're doing whatever it is you needed to do.

[JimStC]

Nem, Completely agree regarding a SD scenario. Also consider that most sheaths with retention devices, even disengaged, take a pretty strong tug. So a tight, thick belt is a wise strategy.

Sam,
So, I am pulling the knife and sheath and the lanyard acts to stop the sheath's movement but not the knife, thereby allowing the knife to be drawn.
I will be trying that. Great idea. Thanks.
On another topic, please direct me to some pictures of your Camp Defender.

Thanks,
Jim

[Nematocyst]

That's a great idea, Sam. Very innovative.

[Sam1911]

Here are two early knives I did that way: (Sorry the pics are a little large.)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/sam1911/Knife%20Work/IMG_0877.jpg

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/sam1911/Knife%20Work/IMG_0874.jpg

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/sam1911/Knife%20Work/IMG_0857.jpg


http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/sam1911/Knife%20Work/IMG_0884.jpg

[Sam1911]

This one (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=656468) was at the top end, probably, of usability that way, and I had the sheath holes spaced for a small Tec-Lock if the owner wanted one. But a deep pocket would certainly hold that knife and sheath securely.


But credit John Shirley with the idea!

[hso]

People have been carrying small sheath knives in their pocket with a lanyard to the belt for a very long time. I think it was first used in Northern Europe and Scandinavia.

[Sam1911]

:) Well, to be honest, I kind of doubted John thought of it himself. :D

[hso]

The innovation is attaching the lanyard to the bottom of the sheath and then drawing the knife and sheath until the lanyard pulls the sheath off. That's been done since kydex started being used on neck knives and someone realized the same technique would work just looping the lanyard around the belt.

It also helps keep the knife oriented when the lanyard is just long enough for the knife to drop into the pocket suspended by the lanyard.

[EnglishmanInArizona]

+1 on lanyards for pocket carry.

I do it a little differently. I cut a hole in the bottom of my pocket, and the knife, in sheath, goes through the hole, with the thickness of the sheath around the handle stopping it from falling right through. The lanyard is then tied through the seam of the trouser leg, inside the pocket.

It takes a little figuring out to get right, but the sheath will stay fixed to the knife until it is just outside the pocket and then be pulled off. This is a FAR shorter drawstroke than having the lanyard tied to the belt. Practically the minimal drawstroke, actually.

Doing this, I regularly conceal a 6" fixed blade with a full size handle in my dress pants. Use a very slim sheath and it vanishes. The thickness of the handle looks very similar to a cellphone.

It works beautifully. Just remember not to drop change into your knife pocket.

[Blade First]

Hmmm...have to express serious reservations about tethering a CQ knife on a particularly short leash unless it's available for the ambidextrous. Just my own preference but my blade is a backup to the primary.

If my primary is compromised in some way, the chance that I'd be able to access
my backup weapon[s] quickly and effectively with my primary hand is pretty slim.

An esKabar on my left-side belt, however, should be available for right-hand and left-hand deployment. If my primary isn't effective, I want that option.

RE: pocket pollution...concealing a pistol in a pocket demands that nothing else interfere with concealment and quick-draw capability.

I stash my blade elsewhere...and your mileage my vary.

[hso]

You can IWB a small sheath knife with the sheath-belt lanyard shortened for a very short draw, although if you're carrying on the belt you may as well carry with the sheath directly attached to the belt for the shortest draw.

[Nematocyst]

... although if you're carrying on the belt you may as well carry
with the sheath directly attached to the belt for the shortest draw.

My thoughts exactly.

I've got a nice (edc) gun belt that's hungry for
a scaled EsKabar in a custom sheath.

[JimStC]

I am going to stick with my two handed approach. If I have the BG in my strike zone I have more problems than getting my knife out of its sheath. Heck I'll pull the sheathed knife and use it as a striking tool until I can unsheath it.
Or, ask Sam to make a sheath similar to the one referenced in a previous post that is wider and with minimal retention.
Just thinking out loud.........

Jim

[JShirley]

I think there will be quite a few happy people here, in about 2 months. :D

John

[Nematocyst]

Smiles. Yup, I suspect so, John. ;)

Jim, I hear you, and respect your choice.
It's all about what works best for each person and each tool.
There's not one way to do it; it depends so much on one's EDC needs and priorities.

[Nematocyst]

Here is an image (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4117/4820933286_d4f400a4e8_z.jpg) from over on Blade Forums of an EsK with Izula scales.
(It's embedded in a five page thread about the EsK (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/777372-The-ESKABAR-is-here!) that I have yet to read, but plan to.)

I think it looks superb (even though I'd opt for darker scales if I had a choice).

I also almost certainly want that handle ring left open,
- unless someone talks me out of it :p - which means I'll go for the Izula scales that needs some mod,
(or custom) instead of the ones that Kabar offers for it (http://www.kabar.com/accessories/29). (Is there a technical name for that hole/ring?)

By the way: what's the ... motivation, reasoning, etc behind those bright orange scales?
More orange for hunting season? Easier to see on the forest floor at dusk?

[JShirley]

They look cool, especially with green blade coating. :cool:

[Nematocyst]

Ha! You know, I almost added a third multiple choice answer to my question (about orange scales),
but couldn't find the wording quickly, so passed.

It was something like, artistic expression for an art-deco-appreciating modern consumer.

:D

[hso]

The simplest reason is often the correct one - Hi-viz to find when dropped.

There's no reason you couldn't drill out or shape the KaBar scale to make a wider hole than the thong hole in the poly composite scales. Much cheaper than buying the micarta and having to do the same thing anyway.

Jantz Knifemaker Supply is offering "their" take on the Izula inspired handle and has scales in various materials. I saw these at Blade and was tempted to ask about the blade materials and if the the scales fit the Izula/Eskabar, but I'm uncomfortable with "inspired/knock off" knives and didn't take the time to find out how closely the smaller pattern 44 matched the Izula. Still, they did offer blade sizes and materials different from the Izula and Eskabar (D2 anyone?) and the scales, if they fit, would be a boon to everyone with an Izula, Eskabar or their Jantz pattern 40/45 knives because of price and variety. http://www.knifemaking.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=pattern+40

As to sheaths, I'm tempted to get their sheath (http://www.knifemaking.com/product-p/kt450.htm) for $13 and heat it up and press it with the Eskabar in it to see if it could be reformed to fit it.

[Nematocyst]

There's no reason you couldn't drill out or shape the KaBar scale to make a wider hole than the thong hole in the poly composite scales. Much cheaper than buying the micarta and having to do the same thing anyway.

Yeah, good point.

I like the black ones anyway.

[Nematocyst]

This just in. (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/869520-Custom-G10-BK14-(Eskabar)-Scales-Claim-yours-now) It appears from the last posts that he's out of them now,
but this puts me on a search for more alternatives like this
(in addition to the ones Hso posted above).

[hso]

Nem,

Let me see if I can dig up the black poly scales from my Eskabar and I'll send them to you if you'll pay the postage. I'd rather keep the orange scales on the one I've kept anyway.

[Nematocyst]

Hey, deal. Thanks. :)

No hurry on this. My EsK order is still at least a week or two away. (Pay check issue.)

[Nematocyst]

So, continuing this exploration.

I'm pretty much locked into an Eskabar due to the price
(barring an unexpected large increase in my cash flow, which is unlikely).

But in continuing to research, I finally found the Izula II (http://www.eseeknives.com/izula-II.htm).

Looks like ESEE has increased the handle length by 1/2" while keeping the blade length identical to the Izula I : 2.75".

That means the Eskabar and Izula II have pretty much the same handle length, but the Eskabar's blade is 1/2" longer.

I like the 3.25" blade on the EsK because it's more similar to what I've used for years,
but if my cash flow was better, I'd think about the Izula II.

What are the real differences in these knives? No doubt, it's context dependent.

Discuss, please.

[hso]

Nem,

Both are 1095 steel. Both are properly ground. What's to discuss except style?

[Nematocyst]

Blade length and shape differences are of interest to me in that comparison.

Some may say they are trivial, but something drove ESEE to design a shorter blade with a much steeper angle to the tip. I'm sure that wasn't by accident. I understand obvious points like a blade that is 1/2" shorter will conceal more easily, and be lighter, etc.

I'm curious here to learn from knife 'experts' (said with respect; I'm sincerely just seeking to learn here) their opinions about the pros and cons of the Izula blade v the EsKabar. Why - other than what I mentioned above - would one want that shorter, differently-shaped blade? If for no other reasons, then so be it.

Remember, Hso, I'm an evolutionary biologist (in part), and we tend to ask questions about form and function, and how minor - sometimes tiny - changes in form can have huge consequences for function.
_________

Added by edit: after writing this, I checked our thread on "short sticks", and found this (interesting and relevant) analysis (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8282489&postcount=320) by you of why just a "bit longer" stick can add benefits over the shorter, more classic stick of a particular fighting style. That's what I'm looking for here: what effects result from small changes in blade shape and length?

[hso]

If you look at the majority of Beckers they tend to have a stout tip with that short sweep to the tip. He's very focused on tough, durable designs that you can hack, cut, baton, dig into things with. They look a little "stumpy" compared to many other designs with a more sweeping profile to the tip where slicing is more the function. Ethan didn't come out with a truly "pointy" design until the BK Magnum Camp and the 15 and 17 this last year (and the 16 is still his favorite).

The Izula just incorporates a more pointed slicing design.

Talking with Ethan and Jeff Randal they approach things just a little differently, but their ideas are basically compatible for a small knife. Small handy light knives that you can carry all the time and still do the minimum needed light tasks in camp. They're buddies, even if their knife lines compete for the same dollars, because of their dedication to wilderness survival they both share. Both talked about "dirt" instead of knives when I was around them at Blade.

[JimStC]

Now here is a necker:
http://www.knifeart.com/enyodamascus.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=july172012
(drool)

And another: http://www.knifeart.com/chrisreeveps.html

[Nematocyst]

Hso: perfect. Just what I was looking for. Very helpful. Thanks.

One nagging question remains for me: why do you think that Jeff Randall (his design, right?) chose to make the Izula blade 2.75" (about) rather than 3.25"? What factors may have motivated losing that extra half inch?

It's funny - or maybe sad - that I've been into knives since I was maybe 7, when dad gave me my first little folder, and have owned folders and fixed blades constantly since then, but I've only recently begun to think seriously about knife design and learn knife anatomy by names, like "choil", "tang" and "belly".

It's fascinating stuff, and more primal than firearms.
_________

Jim, drool indeed, especially that second one. Lust at first sight for me.

[lobo9er]

http://myworld.ebay.com/kbknives/
KB knives AWESOME Sheath maker. Fair price. I didn't read through thread but I'm guessing fair amount of talk about the sheath. The sheath that came with mine dulled the edge if it came into contact. Glass filled nylon plastic sheath, why? If you anyone here knows anyone at kabar or knows ethan becker ask him or them for me.
For the cost of it and a new sheath its still a good value knife.

[JimStC]

lobo,
Regarding sheaths, see this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=667099

Another good sheath maker

Jim

[hso]

why do you think that Jeff Randall (his design, right?) chose to make the Izula blade 2.75" (about) rather than 3.25"? What factors may have motivated losing that extra half inch?

I don't understand.

It didn't start out as a 3.25" knife and then was whittled down. The Izula was designed to be as small as he thought was practical for the application. If you think about the function you don't need as much blade length as the design philosophy that Ethan uses.

Remember that the Eskabar is the marriage of the Izula handle with the BK11 blade to produce what some people thought was the ideal necker, but plenty of people think that the Izula is the ideal necker as do others about other knives (the Reeve for one, or our Breeds or our Wheelers).

That make sense?

[Nematocyst]

Yep it does make sense, and yes you did understand my question, at least intuitively. At least you answered it.

I know that Izula didn't start off as a 3.25" that was whittled down, but purposefully designed as a short blade. I'm just curious about what drives the designers to make this choice or that.

Of course, we'll never know for sure, because we're not them, but it's fun and sometimes informative to think about it ... speaking for myself, at least.

"...designed to be as small as he thought was practical for the application. If you think about the function you don't need as much blade length..." captures the essence for me.

It's interesting that originally, when I was first exposed to 'neck knives' (probably on this board), I thought of them as overwhelmingly SD knives, which I suppose historically they were. (Right? Or no?) And for that kind of CQC application, a 2.5" blade makes sense.

But it seems they have evolved a bit now, and are taking on elements of "EDC" and even "survival knife", so thinking about how that influences blade length and shape is intriguing. Again, it's the evolutionist in me thinking about 'optimal design' and function. (At least in human-designed things; in evolution, natural selection is a tinker, not an architect.)

Example: I found a video last night (can't find it again right now) of a test of how sharp an Izula will remain after whittling a 4x4" into three pieces (conclusion: hair shaving). Who'd a thought of a neck knife taking on such a task? Yes, yes, I know, it's an extreme situation to make a point about blade sharpness. Still, it shows what can be done with a neck knife.

[hso]

which I suppose historically they were. (Right? Or no?)

Nope

You find plenty of small knives carried around the neck at rendezvous. Cody Lundin carries a simple red mora around his neck. Lots of small stuff, including knives carried that way.

The first neck knife I remember seeing was over 20 years ago at a show. It was a small deer antler handled hand forged primitive blade of about 2" length in a brain tanned beaded hide sheath hanging around the neck of the guy who eventually made a couple of pair of moccasins for me. He was an arthritic old smith that taught native skills and made blades in a style similar to 200 years ago using a charcoal forge and hand files/stones. Being comparatively young and dumb I thought the little knife around his neck was a silly little ornamental piece, but I watched him pull it and use it dozens of times during that 3 day knife show and it dawned on me that it was a remarkably handy piece of equipment. He used it to spread peanut butter, spear pickles, carve cardboard for foot patterns, cut leather and cord, start holes for lacing and a gazillion different uses. He wasn't going to cut a tree down with it, but he didn't need to. It looked a lot like this.
http://img2.etsystatic.com/000/0/5733195/il_170x135.320965442.jpg

This little knife from Granfors Bruks is as common a blacksmith's little neck knife as about exists. It serves as a steel spark striker with a piece of flint. The style is about as old as blacksmithing and would be as expected around the neck of a Viking as a Buckskinner.
http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/helixpteron/20072009275.jpg?t=1250548515

The weapon aspect was a late comer to the genre since small knives like these weren't looked at as much as weapons.

[Nematocyst]

Very interesting. Thanks much for the history lesson. Fascinating stuff.

[hso]

I get a kick out of the fact that you can buy that knife at Grandfors Bruks or just about any bushcraft or rendezvous or from any smith today and that it dates from hundreds of years ago.

[JimStC]

Back in post #33 I said the I was going to stick with my two handed sheathed fixed blade pocket draw. Well I came up with a variation. Have the knife in my left pocket with the sheath pointing up. Pull the knife by the sheath and present it to the right hand with the handle. Right hand has the unsheathed knife and the left hand has a blocking, striking tool, albeit a small one.
I can do this very quickly and during the draw my right hand is free until it is armed with the knife.....

Jim

[Nematocyst]

Jim, may I suggest one more small modification to your new system?

Attach a short (2") paracord lanyard to the bottom of the sheath, and let the lanyard protrude slightly from your pocket. (Won't work well with dress pants, but with casuals, work pants and jeans, it fits.)

Then your left hand has only to grasp lanyard and pull. With practice, you can easily figure how to grasp the lanyward in a way that upon pulling up, the lanyard winds up automatically into your grip.

I say this because I use a short lanyard with my kubotan, which rides in a lower pocket, lanyard out, so that when I'm walking, my hand is at the same height as the lanyard; my hand actually brushes against it, and partially hides it if desirable, just by it's position; no contortions or unnatural positioning necessary. Since my trousers are always work variety, the lanyard is always in exactly the same place. My fingers often automatically, almost unconsciously subtlety "feel for" the lanyard when I'm walking, standing or talking with someone, but the lanyard is so unobtrusive they never notice; it looks like I'm fiddling with a strap on the trousers, which is sown on.

From there, I can have it out and in reverse hammer grip in less than half a sec, because the way that I grasp the lanyard means that when I pull up, the kutotan flips automatically into my palm and fingers close around it.

I'll bet you could work out something similar with your sheath.

[JimStC]

Nem,
Tried the single piece but my pockets are too big as I wear cargo shorts this time of year. Guess I can just use a longer piece. I did like the idea so I took an 8" piece of paracord and created a loop at the bottom of the sheath. When I reach into my pocket my fingers, not thumb, go into the loop and makes for a secure grip. When I pull it from the pocket it is now a secure striking tool after the right hand has drawn the blade.
I'll keep working on this. Thanks for the suggestion.

Jim

[Nematocyst]

I'm doing research on a new sharpening system that will also work well for the EsKabar (when I get one), and leaning strongly towards one that involves ceramic rods inserted "vertically" into a base with fixed angles instead of a bench stone like I've always used (with very mixed results). (The one I'm favoring is not a Spyderco Sharpmaker, but similar. I'll address this in another thread.)

Question: does anyone know the angles on an EsK blade? I'm guessing 25 deg (50) since I understand that's common for utility and 'bushcraft' blades, but curious if anyone knows.

[hso]

There's a report of 15 degrees.

Ethan says that he has no idea, but there's a lady on the shop floor at KaBar that probably sharpens 100,000 knives a year on a 4-in belt grinder without a platen. The belt is very tight and looks flat. He guesses that only she really knows (and that may change from day to day during a month or even during the day depending upon how she feels).

[Nematocyst]

Well, if so, then there goes my first - and inexpensive - choice for a sharpening system with fixed angles; lowest is 20. :(

[hso]

I've never liked vertical rod sharpeners.

A simple croc stix system like the Sharpmaker or the Gatco or ... with a couple of bevel settings works wonders.

[Nematocyst]

Maybe "vertical" isn't an accurate descriptor.

This poor man's Sharpmaker - a Lansky Turn Box (http://lansky.com/index.php/products/4-rod-turn-box/) - is what I had in mind,
but the angles are 20 and 25. Get's solid reviews given it's sub-$20 price.

Guess I could find someone with a bench press and have some 15's drilled into the base.

Or just reset the edge angle on the EsK. Isn't 15 really low angle for a utility blade, even if it is a necker?
_____

OK, after more reading on the forum, I see "V-stick" is the appropriate descriptor for what I want.

By "vertical", I was trying to indicate that the stone was not horizontal, like a bench stone.

[hso]

There is a vertical ceramic offered by CRKT.

Yep that's a classic "V" stick setup. There are various versions. I like the Gatco better than the Lansky and the Spyderco as well as any.

[Nematocyst]

Which Gatco? (As in model number or specific name.)

I'm asking that because I've been to the Gatco site, but don't see a V-stick set up.
Closest thing I see there is their Tri-Seps (http://www.gatcosharpeners.com/product/ceramic/triseps.mgi?mgiToken=REPMMK10AUEF011M34), but it's handheld.
(Their site is set up poorly to find items using images.)

[JimStC]

A couple of neckers showed up in the mail today. Chris Reeve Professional Soldier and a Spartan Blades Enyo:

MAKER: Chris Reeve Knives
BLADE SIZE: 3.375"
TOTAL SIZE: 7.25"
BLADE MATERIAL: CPM S35VN Steel with KG Gunkote
HANDLE: Cutaway Frame - shackle wrench capable
SHEATH: Kydex Sheath System for MOLLE Vest or Cargo Pocket
WEIGHT: 3.0 oz.
COMMENTS: This is a model that was solely developed for the Professional Soldier community for active and retired Special Forces soldiers. The Chris Reeve Professional Soldier knife is a secondary vest knife that is used for discreet, readily available, and the handle doubles a wrench tool. The knife is made entirely from American S35VN steel. A slim kydex sheath is perfect for a vest, load bearing harness or neck carry. The lanyard is threaded to muffle the sound of the knife being laid flat on a hard surface.

MAKER: Spartan Blades
DESIGNER: Curtis Iovito and Mark Carey
BLADE SIZE: 2.6875"
BLADE THICKNESS: .1875"
TOTAL SIZE: 6.25"
BLADE MATERIAL: Stainless CPM S35VN Steel -SpartaCoat, DLC Diamond Like Coating (Flat Black)
SHEATH: Black Kydex Sheath with neck chain and IWB (Inside Waist Band) loop. The sheath is Blade-tech hardware ready.
WEIGHT: 2.8 oz.
FEATURES: On smaller tactical knives, the small details make all of the difference. The Enyo gets it right for daily carry; it has filed groves on the handle for positive traction and the ergonomics that make it comfortable to use. The Spartan Enyo is equipped with a multi carry sheath system - neck chain, belt loop and is fully compatible with the Blade-tech system. The knife is coated with a physical vapor deposition process of tungsten carbide DLC which Spartan Blades calls is Flat Black SpartaCoat. The Enyo design features a filed thumb ramp on the top of the blade and index finger guard on the handle. The coating keeps the RC 58-59 Crucible S30V stainless steel both protected and non-reflective. The name of this knife, Enyo, is the companion to the god of war, Ares, in Greek mythology. The knife package is complete with a para-cord lanyard with Spartan helmet bead and a lifetime warranty.

BTW John, I am leaving tomorrow for a fishing trip to MI........

[Nematocyst]

Now, Jim, you know that without pictures, it didn't happen. :rolleyes:

But since you're leaving for a fishing trip, here, I'll help.

Chris Reeves Prof Soldier (http://www.knifeart.com/chrisreeveps.html). Wow, that's a beauty. I'll have to increase my cash flow a lot before I can afford one though.

Spartan Enyo (http://spartanbladesusa.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=72). Nice, and interesting shape. I think I like the PS more.

Good also to find the source of this one (http://spartanbladesusa.com/cqb-tool-p-98.html). I still want one of those eventually.

But great to get those links to those sites. Gives me something else to lust for. :uhoh:

I'm sure I'll be happy with my EsK, but it's great to see what else is out there for comparison, especially in that upper eschalon.

[JimStC]

Nem, I like the PS better too, but Wanda, my wife votes for the Spartan. I offered it to her for EDC but she told me she is sticking with her small Ka Bar with a stacked leather handle. That is one sharp little knife.
Wow, I Like that other Spartan!! Thanks a lot, Nem......
Jim

[Nematocyst]

The CBQT (Tool) is a dagger, so not legal to carry anywhere in the US, I think. But it's a fascinating design, especially for a kubotan student like me. I'd use, at least hold it, it much like my kubo. Different kinds of thrusts, though.

But it's a different - even if overlapping - niche than the EsK. Originally, I was looking for something more like the CBQT, but over time, as I read more about necker designs, styles, uses, etc, I came to realize that for me, the EsK is closer to what I need (even though I'd prefer that Reeves PS) in terms of EDC that in a pinch can serve SD needs.

[JimStC]

Nem, are you suggesting that my Randall Model 2 is not legal to carry?

Go here. It is "F" https://www.randallknives.com/catalog.php?action=modeldetail&id=30

On my way to MI tomorrow, no fixed blades are legal unless I am going hunting.
Go figure....

Jim

[hso]

dagger, so not legal to carry anywhere in the US, I think.

If "anywhere" was changed to "everywhere" you'd be correct. Daggers are not federally regulated for carry and various states don't have a problem with them while others do.

[JimStC]

In Indiana, the only illegal weapons are throwing stars and autos.

Jim

[Nematocyst]

Interesting!

I just rechecked Maine knife laws. Indeed, a close read suggests that dagger is not illegal to open carry, just not concealed.

I'd want to speak with a state trooper and a city cop about that first though.

Still, I think an officer would be more likely to smile favorably on an EsK on my belt than a CQBT.

[hso]

I'd want to speak with a state trooper and a city cop about that first though.

That might be a waste of time. Interpretation of the law is the realm of the Lawyer, not the LEO.

[JShirley]

Jim,

Have fun. Sounds like your fishing buddy is about back up to speed.

I'd want to speak with a state trooper and a city cop about that first though

Yeah, good luck with that. Legal advice from local LEO is usually worth what you pay for it. You'd do better getting an opinion in writing from a state attorney general or a local DA.

John

[Nematocyst]

Good point.

Maybe all three since two of them are 'on the ground'. :)

[JShirley]

The point I'm making is that local law enforcement often don't actually know some of the more specific laws. When I lived in Georgia, I heard about a police officer who encountered a lawful owner of a fully automatic weapon, and insisted that the owner was going to jail until the watch commander arrived on scene, and advised that, yes, the piece of paper from the ATF the owner had on his person did indeed mean that he could have a fully automatic weapon in that state.

Again, also in Georgia, I know of a statutory rape case that was brought- summarily dismissed with prejudice by the judge because the arresting office did not know that 18 was not the age of consent at that time...

Before 9-11, folders of less than 4" were legal to take onto aircraft, yet many legal folders were not allowed onto planes because security did not understand the law. I could give you many more examples.

[Nematocyst]

Yes, despite my flippant Friday evening humor above,
I very much agree with you.

Still, it could be an interesting experiment to query a statie, a city cop and the AG.

And query the former two - especially in this state - in different regions:
Portland and Lewiston (S) would yield different responses Monson and Dover (mid), I'm betting.

[JimStC]

Thanks John. I am not planning to bust wake at 55 mph, but some nice slow bank fishing and our favorite, drift fishing are on the agenda. Leaving the bass boat at home and taking the bigger boat for her comfort. My production will drop without the shallow draft, trolling motor and electronics but a bad day fishing is better than........
Thanks again. I'd rate her at about 70%, so it will only get better.

Jim

[Nematocyst]

I haven't fished for bass in decades, when I grew up near Memphis.
Always had better luck with smaller sun fish, anyway - bream, we called them.

In any case, good eatin'.

I wonder if I could clean a bream with an EsKabar.

I'm betting that job would be easier with one of those Spartans. :D

[JimStC]

Go here for better pics of the Spartan:
http://www.knifeart.com/enyo.html

Dumbest thing I did was to subscribe to Knife Art's newsletter. Bunch of really nice blades.

The Spartan chain intrigues me as it will break if I am grabbed by it whereas the paracord on the Reeves can turn into a bad situation if I am grabbed there.
Jim

[Nematocyst]

Dumbest thing I did was to subscribe to Knife Art's newsletter.

<sound effects>

Ka ching!

[JimStC]

Nem,
Wanda calls herself a perch jerker. She fishes for blue gill, rock bass, red ears, etc. Best eating fish period. I fish for bass. Any fish over 2 lbs is released. I keep the smaller 1-2lbs and let the big ones flourish. They deserve it.
Northern Pike are another target. If you know how to clean them, they are good. Lastly, catfish. In MI they aren't mercury laden and can be some really good eating.
Sorry for the drift.
Oh, forgot to mention, filet knifes are very thin and flexible. A very different blade. Highly recommend unless you are cleaning a 20 lb salmon. As I mentioned in a different thread. I have seen them cleaned with a machete

Jim

[Nematocyst]

Jim, yes, definitely understand filet knives.
My comment re cleaning a bream (blue gill) with the EsKabar
was only because this thread is about ... well, you know.

And catfish. Whoa, don't get me started.
Add fries, beans, slaw and hushpuppies.
Bet I could clean one of them w/ an EsK.

;)

[JimStC]

Yep, Great eating!!!!
Wasn't lecturing on the filet knives. I have learned a lot about them since Wanda and I got married, two years this coming 7/22/12. Hence the fishing trip.
What a girl! Takes me fishing on our anniversary. She is a keeper!!

Jim

[hso]

There's a handy knot that releases when you yank hard enough.
That way the piece of paracord doesn't end up being an inadvertent garrote.

Take one end of your paracord and tie a simple slip knot. Take the other end and fold it over and put the fold into the slip knot and draw the knot closed tight with the two ends of the fold are out of the noose. Drop the lanyard around your neck and yank on it and the loop formed by the fold will pull through the noose with medium resistance.

The guys in Sam Hensley's "What to do for 3 days lost in the woods" course were slack jawed surprised and Sam cussed me for not having shown the simple safety release knot to him.

[JimStC]

hso,
I may need to see that knot as it is "knot" visualized by me yet.

Jim

[hso]

Just stick a bight into a slip knot and then snug the slip knot to choke the bight. Pull the tail of the bight to make a knob. That will stop the line against anything but a pull. When you pull the bight pulls out of the slip knot.

[Nematocyst]

Nice knot. I can see how it's relevant to an EsK.

This thread - like others - continues to inform,
entertain and point toward wisdom.

Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvpYqPxb2mg&feature=related) what I'm listening to as I post this.
Let it track for at least 30 sec.

[JimStC]

hso,
Got it. Thanks a bunch.

Jim

[hso]

When the "knob" pulls through too easily for your liking put two bights into the loop.

OR make two constricting knots and put your free end through the two of them with a bight in the outer.

There are a lot of knots that allow you to more safely use a lanyard.

[DAdams]

This thread inspired me sufficiently to try one of these set-ups.

http://www.knifeworks.com/eseeizulaiiodkit.aspx

I'm going to have to work on the sheath a bit. Better too tight than not enough.

I don't have the time to work with it until next week but the initial "feel" is good and I like the texture size fit and finish of the canvas Micarta, a first for me.

[Nematocyst]

Good to see you here, DA.

And how cool that you're bringing an Izula to the party so we can compare notes between it and an EsK. There's been a lot written about the two side by side (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/786671-EsKabar-vs-Izula-vs-Izula-II-vs-BK11), and some videos - one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtv21meQO_0), two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE39q57F-Tg), three (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz7_SWIhCCM) - but it'll be good to read notes from someone I 'know'. :)

I also look forward to reading about the 'kit', pros/cons, etc.

[DAdams]

The main thing that was part of the kit that i wanted was the clip plate which allows belt wear conventional or inverted and is ambi. Too bad it's not able to accommodate a cant.

http://www.knifeworks.com/eseeizulaclipplateforizulasheathfitsbothizulaandizula-iisheaths.aspx

Which is around $15 seperately. The rest, fire starter, whistle etc can go towards one of my camp packs/bags.

[lobo9er]

sounds like a few of you guys are friends with ethan becker?

[Nematocyst]

I can't claim that privilege, Lobo, but I'll bet I would like to be.

I haven't even met him, or even owned one of his blades ... yet.

[hso]

sounds like a few of you guys are friends with ethan becker?

Nope

[lobo9er]

sounded like a few of you talk with him once in awhile. I guess I read it wrong.

[hso]

He has plenty of fans here.

To my knowledge no one else here is friends with Mr. Becker besides me.

[lobo9er]

does he have any issue with the sheaths ka-bar sends with knives with is name on them? In my opinion you do have to factor in the cost of a new sheath with the purchase of the knife. Simple Kydex couldn't be much more expensive, but would be a huge up grade. I have emailed ka-bar, politely asking and have had no response. I would say there are others that feel the same way.

[Nematocyst]

Motivated by DA's post on his Izula II (http://www.knifeworks.com/eseeizulaiiodkit.aspx), last evening,
I read several reviews and watched a couple of videos.

I've decided I want an Izula.
(Dang it, DA, why do you do these things! :p )

I slept on it before announcing it here,
but I awoke this morning feeling even stronger about it.

Not instead of an EsKabar, but in addition to it.
I have a set of experiments in mind for them.

I'm not sure yet if it's going to be an Izula I or II - it's a hand size issue for me (I have relatively small hands) - so I'm going to need to do more research on that. But that's OK: I've got time: I'm struggling right now to scratch together enough for the EsK, and will buy it first.

Fortunately, I'm expecting a cash flow increase "soon" (they never happen fast enough),
so I expect to have some blade funds available in fall, and I've got a birthday coming up. :D

And, I'm quite interested in what John S and company
are cooking up to be unveiled in a couple of months,
so this could easily become a triad. :rolleyes:

More on all this another day. Right now, I'm working on the professional steps to increase said cash flow.

And the boss yells, "Get off the Internet and get back to work!" :cuss:

(As I've mentioned before, I'm self-employed, and my boss is a slave driver.)

[conw]

Nem, when you think about design evolution, remember that market pressures, not function, are the ultimate pressure.

sexual traits : survival :: market pressures : function

With the first portion referring to evolutionary biology and the second referring to knife evolution.

So remember... some features you encounter on a knife are the equivalent of a baboon's butt. :)

You can have a great knife that doesn't catch on, just like you could have a mutant that is incredibly fit for the environmental pressure in biological evolution - if that mutant doesn't look "sexy" to the available mates, the viability in the environment doesn't matter. Equally, in the short term, a sex characteristic that interests all the ladies will allow a subpar specimen (subpar from an adaptability standpoint) to proliferate profusely.

Over time an equilibrium is reached, or the entire line can die out.

I'm sure you are familiar with the sexy son hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_son_hypothesis). Some brilliant knife designers know full well they have designed a great knife but to market it to the crowd that wants trendiness and hype, they have to add that "something more." Sometimes these get perpetuated and incorporated in the long term (as a goofy feature serious knife people can ignore... or not), but often they don't last that long even though they sell a lot at first as the next big thing.

[Nematocyst]

While looking for size comparisons between EsKabar v Izula I and II handles (I want to know if Iz I handle is identical in total length to Eskabar, because the Iz II handle is reportedly 1/2" longer than the Iz I), I found that video I mentioned a while back about the dude whittling a (near) 4x4" in half in five minutes with an Izula, and it maintains a very good edge. It's here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSrlvqrZQKY).

[Nematocyst]

Conwict, thanks for adding that to the discussion in such interesting terms for this evolutionist.
I respect your opinions for a bunch of reasons, and this one included.

I want to reread your post above and reflect on it some before responding.

For now, I'll just say that I agree 100% with this:

So remember... some features you encounter on a knife are the equivalent of a baboon's butt. :)

:cool:

[hso]

does he have any issue with the sheaths ka-bar sends with knives with is name on them?

Already been pointed out that KaBar has changed the sheath to address the concern about dulling the knife. As to the design, it is compromise between utility and cost. Kydex is actually much more expensive. The current sheath provides a safe and secure way to carry the knife in a number of ways. It is not a compact neck knife sheath, but then that wasn't the goal. If kydex wasn't more expensive the aftermarket sheaths wouldn't be expensive. Add $10 to the price of the EsKaBar and people would be put off.

[Blade First]

"Already been pointed out that KaBar has changed the sheath to address the concern about dulling the knife." - hso

There...third times the charm. ;)

Haven't carried the wrapped EsKabar yet but do like the way it feels in the hand. I have long fingers and a wide hand so it needed some help.

[conw]

Does anyone have a link to the sheath update? I would like to see a pic or something, just out of curiosity. Can't seem to find it via Google. Thanks.

[hso]

Once again, they changed the material. You won't see any difference.

BTW, there isn't a link that I'm aware of. I got the information talking with E and Tuj at the KaBar booth at Blade and then again with E later. If there's anything on the net at this point, I don't know where it resides, but the Becker forum at Bladeforums is a good bet.

[Nematocyst]

And of course, I'll need to compare
the EsKabar and Izula
to the ESEE 3 (http://www.eseeknives.com/rc-3.htm).

All the blades are ~ 3" (2.88 - 3.375),
even if with different accoutrements,
but in the same realm of capabilities.

Dang; I can see this is going to be
an expensive experiment. :scrutiny:

[hso]

Why not a literature search and compendium of research from reputable sources and save some money? Not as much fun, but a common publication count approach.

[Nematocyst]

Not as much fun ...

That's why. ;)

[lobo9er]

Add $10 to the price of the EsKaBar and people would be put off.

Anyone with the old including myself had to add at least 10 for a new one, bit catty but just saying. Well I am glad they fixed the problem I wonder if they have changed their designs and materials on some of their others, like the BK2.

[conw]

Okay, fair enough.

But everyone kept saying changed the sheath, not the sheath material! :)

[hso]

Keep prodding them and they may change the design like they changed the material. Heck, they now offer scales because folks asked, they may offer a second minimalist sheath folks can purchase separately if they get asked enough.

I'd encourage telling them, since they are selling scales to augment the Eskabar that everyone would be happy to pay for an inexpensive neck sheath for that would fit the Eskabar and the Bk11.

[JimStC]

Go here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/872443-Ask-Toooj

If you want to get answers from the source:
Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives

Jim

[hso]

Just got off the phone with Paul Tsujimoto. Paul explained that like many companies they get suggestions for changes to products each week. KaBar reviews them and appreciates the input. Unlike many companies they actually like to see the involvement of fans and innovators that mod their products or make sheaths and other new accessories to support the community of customers. That's something you don't see from a lot of companies. Instead of taking business away from those folks who keep the community interesting and lively Paul says they'd rather point customers to folks making new and interesting items. In the case of sheaths, he says there are a number of folks that love their products who make good sheaths that they think serve the community better than they would by producing an alternate sheath.

Strange that a company would pass up making a buck because it would take money away from small guys serving the community making those items (I'm sure if they could do it cheaper and demand was high enough KaBar would step in and provide those products, though).

Anyway, they'd rather the small makers providing leather and kydex fill that niche than KaBar. I have seen that sort of behavior out of companies big enough to just want to focus on their strengths and not get into what a smaller provider can do.

[JimStC]

Strange that a company would pass up making a buck because it would take money away from small guys serving the community making those items (I'm sure if they could do it cheaper and demand was high enough KaBar would step in and provide those products, though).

Anyway, they'd rather the small makers providing leather and kydex fill that niche than KaBar. I have seen that sort of behavior out of companies big enough to just want to focus on their strengths and not get into what a smaller provider can do.

Exactly. Very well put. That is one of the reasons I own more than one and less than 10 Ka Bars. They are a great American company which is focused on their customers and ancillary companies. By no means a predatory retailer, which seems to be the norm, predatory retailers, that is......
Also, think back on the companies that have moved beyond their strengths and have failed miserably: Tyco, Enron, WorldCom, Lehman, Conseco, Bear Sterns . There are hundreds more.

Jim

[Nematocyst]

Sam, those are SO fine looking.

I'm eager to see your next offerings.

[Nematocyst]

Update on my blade situation : this just in (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8301414#post8301414).