Why aren't there any heavier .410 slugs?


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A strange person
July 13, 2012, 01:27 AM
A typical .410 slug load consists of a soft-alloy 1/5 - 1/4 oz. slug loaded to about 1800 fps. It's incredibly poor sectional density, soft lead, and blistering velocity means that penetration is sorely lacking, even for bambi. They often literally expand into rings on impact.

WHY!?

Why would anyone load a .410 shell that way? What is the logic behind it? Such a load is only good for close-range, opportunistic shots at mentally challenged coyotes, which anything is good for. Who has any use for a load that basically slaps a coin face-first into the target? Were these loads designed for use as torturing devices?

I don't see why the .410 could not be loaded to duplicate .41 mag deer hunting loads, or at least come close. For the 12, and even the 20 gauge, there are heavy, hard, flat-nosed slug loads available that will shoot clean through a moose from 100 yards and leave a bore-diameter wound channel that will gush blood like a fire hose. Even "normal" slugs in these bores are good enough for deer. Shotgun slugs need weight and hardness, not velocity. The .410 could be an adequate, no, GOOD deer gun if there were decent slugs available for it. Why aren't there any?

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Sport45
July 13, 2012, 02:18 AM
Chamber pressure limits how much the slug can weight without blowing the thing up. 12 gauge slugs can be heavier because the extra bore diameter gives a lot more area for roughly the same amount of pressure to act on.

I've never taken any apart, but I suspect a .410 slug is about the same length as a 12 ga slug and the latter's extra mass is due to its extra diameter. (Area and volume being a function of the square of the diameter and all.)

Sam1911
July 13, 2012, 09:40 AM
You need to look into Hoening Big Bore South!

http://www.hoeningbigboresouth.com/images/the%20better%20410%20slug%2072%20dpi_3.jpg (http://www.hoeningbigboresouth.com/Big410Ballistics.html)

http://www.hoeningbigboresouth.com/Big410Ballistics.html

HBBS 410 Uncrimped Heavy Load 375 gr Slug, BC = 0.214, 100yd. zero
Muzzle Velocity: 1500 fps
Energy: 1873 ft-lbs.

Pete D.
July 13, 2012, 09:57 AM
Yes...I suspect that pressure is the reason.
.410s routinely operate in the 9k - 11k psi range. This is more pressure than average 12 ga. loadings which tend to be in the 7k to 9k range. Using a heavier slug would probably cause pressures to rise, maybe to unsafe levels. I say "probably" because, with modern propellants, there may be options to keep pressures in the safe zone. Look at any of the "shotgun from hell" threads for examples.....though none of those are .410 loads.
Pete

PS - Gotta look into those Hoening slugs. New to me.
P

PPS - Looked at them. Very impressive. The downside is that they must be fired from a rifled barrel. The proprietary barrel from Hoening is expensive at $550 (for T/C Encore and Contender)

A strange person
July 13, 2012, 10:32 AM
Chamber pressure limits how much the slug can weight without blowing the thing up.

Obviously. That is why I suggested that heavier slugs be loaded to lower velocities, so that pressures remain safe. Nobody would load .357MAG with a 90 grain bullet going 2000 fps for deer, they would use a 158 grain bullet at 1400 fps, and pressures would be the same. I find it hard to believe that the .410 can be loaded with a 109 grain slug for 1800+ fps, but not with, say, a 170 grain slug going 1400 fps or so. Slugs do not need velocity. Velocity achieves flatter trajectories and more violent expansion. Huge bullets from smooth bore barrels do not benefit from either of these qualities. Brenneke generally seems to understand this concept, but even their .410 offering seems to fall far short of it's potential.

It also occurs to me that the .410 has similar operating pressures to the 12GA. If the latter can be loaded with slugs heavy enough to match the SD's of common handgun hunting bullets while maintaining respectable velocities, then so can the .410.

http://www.hoeningbigboresouth.com/B...allistics.html

HBBS 410 Uncrimped Heavy Load 375 gr Slug, BC = 0.214, 100yd. zero
Muzzle Velocity: 1500 fps
Energy: 1873 ft-lbs.

That's exactly what I'm talking about! There is no excuse for something like this to not be factory loaded.

RetiredUSNChief
July 13, 2012, 10:43 AM
Hmmm...

I can see this from a few different perspectives.

One being that of trying to get a particular weapon to perform up to levels it wasn't really designed for in the first place. The prevailing opinion on the origin of the .410 is that it arose from converted rifle barrels. In otherwords, it was a round designed to fit easily with existing rifles, and some pistols, to give a person a shotgun weapon. It likely was never meant to be something other than a small game, varmint shotgun.

After it became a popular round, actual shotguns were designed for it.

So, with that in mind, the .410 shotgun simply wasn't "designed", in the conventional sense, for any type of large game...including deer. It was actually designed to fit a cartridge which was, in turn, designed to fit a rifle barrel as a "conversion shell". It was, in effect, a reverse engineering project from the beginning...a rifle was reverse engineered to be a shotgun, which produced a shotgun cartridge as a result. Then the .410 shotgun was reverse engineered to fit the cartridge.

Now some people would like to continue the reverse engineering process and attempt to ramp up the performance of the .410 to what amounts to a more "rifle-like" performance. Only now they're hampered because of the design limitations of the shotgun itself; because, unlike a rifle, shotguns which are designed to be shotguns aren't capable of handling the chamber pressures required to obtain more rifle-like performances from a slug.

It sounds to me like what you want is more penetration power for the .410 slug. Well, penetration power is a function of several different factors, such a mass, velocity, bullet composition, and bullet shape.

When limited by design in one area, such as maximum chamber pressure, you have to alter other factors to get what you want.

For example, increasing bullet mass, like you're asking, means an increase in chamber pressures, especially if you're intending to maintain bullet velocity. You can't do this if you're already operating at the limits of your design chamber pressures. So using a harder alloy, or a jacket round, which will help maintain bullet geometry and integrity upon impact with the target, could be used as a means for better penetration.

Altering the shape of the bullet can also be used to increase penetration. A more conventional, round-nosed bullet shape instead of a blunt nosed slug, for example. Combining this with different compositions of alloys and jacketing can improve upon this further.

But in every case, you have to obesrve the limitations of the firearm itself.

When I was in the Navy, one Sailor in my division was from Louisiana; and he once talked about how crazy some Cajuns were (his term was not "Cajun"...I'll leave it at that.) Specifially, he was talking about how they would chamber .44 Magnum rounds in their .410 shotguns on a routine basis.

To say that this is moronic would be the understatement of the year.

As Sam1911 pointed out, some people have attempted to address the very problems you've pointed out already. But you'll have to search for them to find them, because most stores don't carry much more than the conventional, higher-demand shotgun ammunition. Specialty stuff has to be ordered or obtained from a place that carries such stuff on hand.


@ Sam1911:

Thanks for that link! I had never known someone designed such a round for the .410! Not that I'll ever be likely to use it...I'm more of a small game, varmit hunter when it comes to the .410.

:):)

Sam1911
July 13, 2012, 10:47 AM
That's exactly what I'm talking about! There is no excuse for something like this to not be factory loaded.


Oooooh, sure there are excuses! For one, some of the loads they sell are only advertised as safe in their specific barrels. Second, there's lots of old .410 guns around, and also the Judge and Governor handguns now. Hoening says these are loads tested to be safely within SAAMI spec for .410s, but I don't know that Taurus, or even S&W, will be happy about those loads in their revolvers. And I'm sure there are several milliion .410 single-shot "toppers" out there which might not digest these with ease.

Sam1911
July 13, 2012, 10:52 AM
Now some people would like to continue the reverse engineering process and attempt to ramp up the performance of the .410 to what amounts to a more "rifle-like" performance. Only now they're hampered because of the design limitations of the shotgun itself; because, unlike a rifle, shotguns which are designed to be shotguns aren't capable of handling the chamber pressures required to obtain more rifle-like performances from a slug.


True, but like Ed Hubel with the "12 Ga. Rifle from Hell" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=178655) project has determined, safe chamber pressures can still be maintained using FAR more energetic combinations of slow powders and heavy slugs than folks ever bothered to consider before. As you're kind of saying, that wasn't "the point" of a shotgun, really, until someone got bored (or whatever :)) and decided to sit down and do the math and explore what could be possible.

oletymer
July 13, 2012, 12:08 PM
I used the simple solution. I use rifles and shotguns for what they are best used for.

RetiredUSNChief
July 13, 2012, 12:13 PM
"True, but like Ed Hubel with the "12 Ga. Rifle from Hell" project has determined, safe chamber pressures can still be maintained using FAR more energetic combinations of slow powders and heavy slugs than folks ever bothered to consider before."


Good point. There is a huge variety of gunpowders available in today's market. Matching fast/slow burn rates to bullet mass and barrel length can do wonders for peak chamber pressures and velocities.


:):)

Sam1911
July 13, 2012, 12:17 PM
I use rifles and shotguns for what they are best used for.

Surely! And with numbers like this...
Muzzle Velocity: 1500 fps
Energy: 1873 ft-lbs.


The .410 might be best for mule deer, black bear, elk at close range, moose -- and it's matching the numbers in the .405 Winchester Teddy Roosevelt took on safari in Africa!

How 'bout a slim little .410 double semi-dangerous game rifle? :)

SHR970
July 13, 2012, 03:13 PM
Chamber pressure limits how much the slug can weight without blowing the thing up.

That is a bunch of manure. :scrutiny: You adjust the speed of the powder used and the amount of powder used to moderate the chamber pressures; otherwise you wouldn't have 1/2 oz (220 gr.) loads in 2 1/2" shells and up to 3/4 oz (330 gr.) loads in 3" shells.

Lyman used to market a slug mold for the 410 that featured a 138 gr. slug and published loading data for it. Dougs 410 slugs for reloading are available in weights over 125 gr. Some simple internet searches will back that up.

The reason you don't see it is there was a long period when there was little demand for the 410; it was relegated to the status of beginners gun for kids. It's only been in the last 10-15 years or so that you see more and better loads available. The trend started around the time that American Derringer chambered a 410 and they along with Winchester came out with the 410 3 pellet 000 Buck load in 2 1/2". That was also popular for the short lived Thunder 5 revolver (the Judge is basically the same gun just warmed over). Then can the S&B buck offerings, then the Saiga 410 came over here with the Bear 410 buck offering. With the Taurus Judge, the gun press promoting it, and the public buying it came more development in the 410 ammo arena. With the exception of the Brenneke 410 1/4 oz. slug, there has been precious little development of slug ammo by the major manufacturers. Most of the time it has been to offer a 1/4 oz. slug where they only offered 1/5 oz. in the past. It is a matter of demand; common "wisdom" is that the 410 is useless for deer. Without the hunting segment of the market wanting / needing a good slug for hunting or defense you won't see the majors putting any effort (read that money) into to developing a good slug.

rcmodel
July 13, 2012, 03:25 PM
Accuracy is the reason.

Hollow-base Forster slugs are used in .410 shotguns so you can hit something with them in a smoothbore barrel.

A 300 grain slug in a .410 would have to be longer then the shell to have a big enough hollow base to fly point first to the target.

Or you would have to have a rifled barrel.

One, or the tother.

rc

Sam1911
July 13, 2012, 03:38 PM
Right. The Hoening big bore concept is founded around a very accurate rifled barrel for a T/C Contender or Encore.

They've bascially adapted the plastic hull of a .410 shotshell into a straight-walled rifle cartridge.

Now, if Mossberg would just put one of their 500 Bantams together with a rifled .410 barrel, we'd really have something!

Of course, with the current thread we have going on about how many hundreds of cartridges are redundant, what we'd have is yet another gun that's pretty much the same thing as a lot of others.

But in shotgun-hunting-only states, whooo yeah, that would be VERY cool. I'd sure take one over a 12 or 20 ga. slug gun!

SHR970
July 13, 2012, 04:19 PM
There's no reason that a 158 gr. SWC with a Gualandi Bior Dwarf attached shouldn't stabilize much like a Brenneke slug with its attached wad base. I just haven't gotten around to trying it. At 14-1500 fps, you wouldn't even need it to be a HP to expand well; using a standard swaged SWC should do. And this velocity range is realistic for a 3/8 oz. load; you might be able to go faster and stay within pressure with the right powder.

The aerodynamic computer modeling suggests it should fly well enough the question is in real world accuracy. I just need some components and 3/8 oz. load data to start working it out. I already have the Rossi test bed. At close to 800 ft. lbs. @ 1500 fps muzzle this would be no slouch load with 1100 fps. and 424 ft. lbs. remaining at 100 yards. That would be a huge step up from current factory offerings.

Just my $.02.

Dave McCracken
July 13, 2012, 06:40 PM
Supposedly, the 410 was evolved from birdshot loads in 44-40 cases used by Bill Cody and Annie Oakley in smoothbore Model 73s for aerial targets in the Wild West show.

It caught on as a "Garden Gun" cartridge,cheap. quiet and effective on up to rabbit sized stuff.

There's a zillion old IJ's, H&Rs etc, out there that would NOT handle the modern high pressure fodder we're talking about here.

Even a half oz slug at 1400 FPS would be straining things,IMO.

If one desires more punch slug wise than a 410 in about that bore size, get an old Rolling Block in 43 Spanish and rock on.

SHR970
July 13, 2012, 06:57 PM
If one desires more punch slug wise than a 410 in about that bore size, get an old Rolling Block in 43 Spanish and rock on.

Not legal in shotgun only areas.

In my neck of the woods Quail and Deer season overlap by two weeks. It's kind of nice to be carrying the 410 O/U for quail and still be able to take a buck of opportunity with the same gun.

*In Cali, for deer with shotguns your choices on ammo are 000 & 00 Buck or slug. Conveniently in 410 my choices are 000 & 00 Buck and slug. It would be nice to have a slug that was better suited than most of the junk on the market. If I have my 20 ga. for quail my only choice for deer is slug. YMMV

MCgunner
July 13, 2012, 07:02 PM
Buy a 12 gauge, or at least a 20. That solves your problem. I don't use my 177 air rifle for deer, either. :rolleyes: Every tool has its uses.

Dave McCracken
July 13, 2012, 07:11 PM
Here, slugs for deer have to be 20 gauge or larger.

Those old Spanish RBs had little rifling anyway....

Deltaboy
July 13, 2012, 08:13 PM
All I can tell anyone is and old man in Eastern Arkansas punched his deer tags every year for over 50 years using a old pump 410 and Rifled Slugs in later years he hand loaded 41 mag bullets in place of the slug and recrimped them. He had several 1 shot kills that I witnessed when he brought them into the LGS which served as a Check in Station.

jrdolall
July 13, 2012, 08:27 PM
Other than just for the heck of it why would this be needed? I like my 410 and have taken a lot of dove and rabbits with it but I have never been deer hunting with it. I know people who have killed deer with a 410 so it can be done but I really don't see the need that would drive a company to spend a lot of money to develop a great slug for a limited use.
Until the Judge and other similar weapons came about how many people thought of a 410 for sd? It is a cartridge that is a niche and gets the attention of most niches. Don't get me wrong. I am all about figuring out how to make an old idea work better but I don't see this going very far unless some people decide the 410 is a good HD/SD weapon.

Sam1911
July 13, 2012, 09:17 PM
Other than just for the heck of it why would this be needed?

"Needed?" As I pointed out, go look at the "Why So Many Calibers (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=667361)" thread. You could hunt everything most of us will kill in a lifetime with one firearm, if you had to. But we have over 379 choices for rifle cartridges alone!

But there are reasons, even if they aren't requirements.

If I lived again in a shotgun-only state, I could certainly kill bambi with a 12 or 20 ga. shooting slugs -- maybe even sabots if I wanted a bit more range.

But, knowing I could get a rifled barrel and shoot a flatter, faster, much more accurate, lighter-kicking .410 that acted much more like something between a .375 and a .444 rifle, I certainly would be tempted to do so.

rcmodel
July 13, 2012, 09:25 PM
Ummm?

I don't believe a .410 would still be easier kicking if it had "much more like the performance of a .375 or .444" rifle.

In fact, I think you would find the typical very light and ill fitting .410 shotgun much more then you would be willing to shoot again after the first shot or two!

rc

Sam1911
July 13, 2012, 09:42 PM
Well, that may be so. I'd sure love to find out. If I was starting from scratch though, moving to a shotgun only state, I think I might be tempted to put together a gun based on this cartridge and rifled barrel that fit me well.

FWIW, the Hoening system is intended for a T/C Encore or Contender and I know there are folks who shoot some right STOMPING rounds through those. Hey, why not? :)

jrdolall
July 13, 2012, 10:27 PM
I agree completely that the word "needed" is up for debate. I don't need 20+ guns in .22 caliber but I have them because I can. I have a .410 as well but just don't personally see the "need" for a heavier slug for it. Kind of like asking why they don't make a 150 grain bullet for the .22.

What is the recoil like using buckshot and slugs in the 410 compared to field loads? I have never fired one but I know there is a huge difference in a 12 or 20g.

gp911
July 13, 2012, 11:34 PM
Someone posted a link to a video on here awhile back, titled "the little .410 that could". Some guys had a single shot rigged up with a string to pull the trigger and fired several calibers that fit in the gun, including 454 Casull. The gun held up great, surprisingly!

rcmodel
July 13, 2012, 11:43 PM
Yes, but pulling a string from afar and it blows up even occasionally, is a FAR different and more pleasant experience.

Then when it blows up inches in front of your face & eyeballs with your left hand wrapped around the barrel, even once in a lifetime.

Do you feel lucky?
Well do you?

rc

gp911
July 13, 2012, 11:57 PM
Heh, the kids on that bus are safe, I'm not firing anything but .410 in my .410s!

RJTravel
July 14, 2012, 12:20 AM
"We will not recommend use of HBBS .410 slugs in any chambering other than the HBBS Rifled .410 they were designed for.
They will not perform well in smooth bore shotguns for a variety of reasons, the biggest being instability in flight. The HBBS Heavy and Youth slug loads use a solid slug instead of a common hollow base slug found in most if not all other .410 slug loads. These slugs need rifling to impart a stabilizing spin. Choke and bore diameter are two other important factors. No chokes should be used and cylinder bore would be in order if used in a smooth bore barrel. Bore diameter should be suitable also. I mention this because there is a wide variety of bores called ".410" as allowed by S.A.A.M.I. standards.
We recommend having a competent gun smith evaluate the use of HBBS .410 slugs in any given smooth bore .410 shotgun due to the many combinations of bore diameter, choke, chamber dimension, action type, over all condition of fire arm."

With more punch than a 30/30 I would still like to have some of these slugs on hand for dangerous game defense. Hopefully the accuracy will be somewhat acceptable.

rcmodel
July 14, 2012, 12:22 AM
That sounds like a good plan.

A real good plan!

If they wanted you to Choot elephants and moose's with a .410?
They would have made it a .410 Nito Express rifle in the first place!

rc

RJTravel
July 14, 2012, 12:50 AM
Duh. Huh?

MCgunner
July 14, 2012, 12:57 AM
FWIW, the Hoening system is intended for a T/C Encore or Contender and I know there are folks who shoot some right STOMPING rounds through those. Hey, why not?

Pull the choke off my 10" contender .410 barrel and it becomes a 7-8 MOA .45 Colt pushing a 300 grain XTP to 1200 fps. I don't know how you can top that with any .410 load in the gun. Me, hell, I put my .30-30 barrel/2x optic on for deer hunting with it.

PabloJ
July 14, 2012, 08:12 AM
A typical .410 slug load consists of a soft-alloy 1/5 - 1/4 oz. slug loaded to about 1800 fps. It's incredibly poor sectional density, soft lead, and blistering velocity means that penetration is sorely lacking, even for bambi. They often literally expand into rings on impact.

WHY!?

Why would anyone load a .410 shell that way? What is the logic behind it? Such a load is only good for close-range, opportunistic shots at mentally challenged coyotes, which anything is good for. Who has any use for a load that basically slaps a coin face-first into the target? Were these loads designed for use as torturing devices?

I don't see why the .410 could not be loaded to duplicate .41 mag deer hunting loads, or at least come close. For the 12, and even the 20 gauge, there are heavy, hard, flat-nosed slug loads available that will shoot clean through a moose from 100 yards and leave a bore-diameter wound channel that will gush blood like a fire hose. Even "normal" slugs in these bores are good enough for deer. Shotgun slugs need weight and hardness, not velocity. The .410 could be an adequate, no, GOOD deer gun if there were decent slugs available for it. Why aren't there any?
Because .410 smoothbore is man TOY.

A strange person
July 14, 2012, 09:38 PM
I used the simple solution. I use rifles and shotguns for what they are best used for.

Other than just for the heck of it why would this be needed?

I am a wilderness survival skills enthusiast first and foremost, and hunting is only a "sub-activity" to me. I like taking to the woods for days or even weeks on end alone on foot, and taking all kinds of game along the way. Versatility with a single weapon is thus EXTREMELY important to someone like me, as I obviously cannot lug around several long arms simultaneously. I know not everyone thinks like that, but they should at least be able to understand this concept. The old timers did; back in the day, there were all kinds of survival-oriented weapons like super light-weight .410 over .22 combo guns with folding stocks, etc. etc. The current generation is woefully "sports" minded. No fun.

The .410 is a good choice as a woods trekking gun in forested country because of it's usefulness on small game at modest range vs. the relatively light weight of it's ammo (and the weapon itself, usually). This is a good enough reason to make more capable deer loads for it, as far as I'm concerned.

rcmodel
July 14, 2012, 09:53 PM
The old timers didBack in the day, there were very few combo guns, and the old timers didn't use them much except maybe on a trap line.

Woodsmen & hunters carried a suitable caliber rifle for the biggest dangerous game in the country they were in.
And shot everything that needed shooting with it.

They might have also carried a light "Kit Gun" type revolver for shooting grouse & rabbits for food, and dispatching small animals in traps without distroying the pelts.

Or earlier, they might have carried a Winchester lever-action and a matching caliber Colt SAA in 38-40 or 44-4 WCF.

The .22/410 combo guns were a later development, and where mostly a kids cheap first gun, or a trappers only gun.

They would not have been a logical choice for someone hunting or living off the land in big game / dangerous game country.

rc

Sam1911
July 14, 2012, 09:54 PM
The old timers did; back in the day, there were all kinds of survival-oriented weapons like super light-weight .410 over .22 combo guns with folding stocks, etc. etc. The current generation is woefully "sports" minded. No fun.


Shucks, the real old timers did it with one gun. A flintlock long gun of some description, a mold for shot, a mold for round balls, powder, and lead. Wasn't .410 bore, though. More like .68-.75 cal or so, and long as a man is tall. :) Deer, bear, buffalo, and whatever else fell in the sights. Now THAT's really living off the land.

Sport45
July 15, 2012, 12:08 AM
Shucks, the real old timers did it with one gun.

Nah, the real old timers did it with a sharpened rock tied to the end of a stick.

I suppose the ones before that just used the rock or stick alone... :)

rcmodel
July 15, 2012, 12:14 AM
The ones before that did it bare handed, tooth & nail.

But thats beside the point.

rc

RJTravel
July 15, 2012, 12:54 AM
Well said. I couldn't agree more.

Crowcifier666
July 15, 2012, 10:06 AM
Yeah, why have a .410 when you could just grab a stick and a rock? now that's survivng. :banghead:

A strange person
July 15, 2012, 12:14 PM
(deleted, just being quarrelsome)

lobo9er
July 15, 2012, 12:37 PM
for deer it has to be 20 or bigger, but for coyote its either shotgun of any size or rimfire that would be slamming.

Sam1911
July 15, 2012, 01:09 PM
for deer it has to be 20 or bigger, but for coyote its either shotgun of any size or rimfire that would be slamming.
Always a good idea to specify what State's laws you are quoting when you give a requirement like that. The game laws vary.

SHR970
July 15, 2012, 01:40 PM
for deer it has to be 20 or bigger, Our illustrious Moderator is correct...State laws vary. Here in Kali, there is no such requirement. They also specify center fire pistol but no caliber or minimum energy requirement (as of last year). While technically I could use my 32 ACP LEGALLY, I could not and would not ethically.

Because .410 smoothbore is man TOY.

Here in lies one of the major problems with this discussion. Too many people regard the 410 as a toy and don't or won't take it seriously. Too many net ninjas, tactical tommies, and counter commandos think that nothing short of a 12 gauge is even suitable for SD/HD let alone hunting.

12 gauge and 20 gauge slugs are weighted at levels from light loads up to standard weight loads for their gauge. In 20 gauge Federal offers 5/8, 3/4, and 7/8 ounce offerings. In 12 gauge they offer everything from 3/4 to 1 1/4 ounce.

To the OP's question and I find it quite legitimate; why do the ammo companies insist on offering very light for gauge slugs for the 410? Why not offer a 3/8 ounce ( ~164 gr.) or 7/16 ounce (~194 gr) load? Lymans old slug mold dropped a 138 gr (~5/16) ounce slug. Anyone that thinks that a 160 gr. .375 slug wouldn't put a world of hurt on someone / something is seriously deluded. One major advantage to a heavier slug is that it will enjoy better Sectional Density which means it will tend to penetrate better.

With a new generation of consumers taking a more serious look at the 410 and what it can potentially do we now have real buckshot loads for the 410 and some of them are quite respectable. Anyone want to play catch with 4 000 buck pellets from a 2 1/2" shell moving at 1200 fps? I very highly doubt it. So why not give us slugs that match?

For those who think it can't be done, look at the 168 gr. offering here:
Paraklese (http://www.paraklesetechnologies.com/products.asp?cat=13)

lobo9er
July 15, 2012, 02:16 PM
I was speaking about NY
For big game 20 gauge is the smallest bore shotgun allowed, and its slug only. But I can use ANY centerfire pistol, no barrel length requirement. I am sure they did that because hunting laws conflicted with CCW laws. For instance a few years ago, the way I understand it, it may have been criminal to have your CCW 32 on you while you were hunting in NY.

jrdolall
July 15, 2012, 02:21 PM
As stated in an earlier post, if enough people are interested in this, or about anything else, then an ammo company will try to figure it out. I just don't think there are enough people interested in the .410 as a defensive weapon or a hunting weapon. I don't think you are wrong for looking at them but it will need to make financial sense before they will get interested.

A strange person
July 15, 2012, 05:38 PM
To the OP's question and I find it quite legitimate; why do the ammo companies insist on offering very light for gauge slugs for the 410? Why not offer a 3/8 ounce ( ~164 gr.) or 7/16 ounce (~194 gr) load?

Wow, someone agreeing with me for a change. I'm not an expert, but based on my experience reloading, I don't see why slugs that heavy could not achieve 1400 fps or so in the .410 while staying within normal pressures. Buffalo Bore could probably do even better with their magic alien powder. It would basically be a .41MAG.

a few years ago, the way I understand it, it may have been criminal to have your CCW 32 on you while you were hunting in NY.

Any laws that conflict with carrying your normal defensive piece (especially in the woods) are obviously a technicality due to vaguely worded laws, and most game wardens would not care about you carrying a .32 while, say, bowhunting or something. You do not cease to be an American citizen while you are hunting, nor does the world temporarily become free of violent criminals. YOUNG law enforcement officers today, however, seem to have been brainwashed into thinking they need to adhere to the letter of the law and prosecute people to the full extent of it even when doing so clearly conflicts with common sense. They don't seem to realize that the law is man-made and thus imperfect, and must therefore be interpreted loosely in order to avoid harming innocent people. They are the kinds of people who arrest children for selling lemonade or drawing pictures of firearms in school.

As stated in an earlier post, if enough people are interested in this, or about anything else, then an ammo company will try to figure it out.

If more people practiced "subsistence camping" as I do, then more people would appreciate versatility of loadings within a given cartridge/shotshell, especially lightweight ones. It's sad that I have to explain to people why I would want to be able to cleanly take both bunnies and Bambi with the same gun. Anyone who reads "The Backwoodsman" magazine is likely face-palming with me. If I was older and more experienced/credible, I'd write a book or something.

A strange person
July 15, 2012, 05:53 PM
For those who think it can't be done, look at the 168 gr. offering here:
Paraklese

That looks awesome, but their description makes me chuckle:

"Turn your beloved .410 or Taurus Judge into a bona fide medium sized game getter with Paraklese Technologies’ Thunderhead .410 3” 168 grain hollowpoint slug."

Ahem... doesn't the .45LC qualify as a "bona fide medium sized game getter"? I don't see how they would get the thing to obturate the bore anyway. As indifferent as I am to the Taurus judge, I am glad that it's popularity has inspired ammo manufacturers to come up with better .410 loads.

Sam1911
July 15, 2012, 06:31 PM
I think the biggest problem is still the issue of getting these to fly well from a smoothbore. There just aren't very many rifled .410s (Hoening's may be IT, for what I know), and a heavy, solid, long slug is going to fly even worse out of a smooth bore than a patched round ball would. Ironically, the Judge and Governor might have it over a shotgun here. They only have rifling because they HAVE to by law (NFA '34) but at least they have a little.

If subsistence camping also means you take game at such short distances that a tumbling slug that's off paper at 50 yards will work, then that maybe doesn't matter. But if you want decent range and some reasonable confidence about where the shot will land, a hollow-base slug designed to fly well out of a smoothbore will be your only option. And a hollow base means a lighter slug.

A strange person
July 15, 2012, 07:07 PM
If subsistence camping also means you take game at such short distances that a tumbling slug that's off paper at 50 yards will work, then that maybe doesn't matter.

50 yards is a typical shot at a whitetail in the eastern half of the North American continent below the tundra line. I like getting close anyway. I practice stalking just as much as marksmanship. Ideally, there should be blood splatter on my body after the shot. I would be a strict bowhunter if I didn't love guns so much.

SHR970
July 15, 2012, 07:38 PM
But if you want decent range and some reasonable confidence about where the shot will land, a hollow-base slug designed to fly well out of a smoothbore will be your only option.

Think Brenneke. The wad stays attached and provides it a bulk of its stability. So again, why not go into the 150-170 gr. range? That is still light for caliber and should be reasonably accurate. You'll still need a fair amount of tail on that wad for a 2 1/2" shell which would make it a very weight forward design.

MCgunner
July 15, 2012, 08:01 PM
I am a wilderness survival skills enthusiast first and foremost, and hunting is only a "sub-activity" to me. I like taking to the woods for days or even weeks on end alone on foot, and taking all kinds of game along the way. Versatility with a single weapon is thus EXTREMELY important to someone like me, as I obviously cannot lug around several long arms simultaneously.

Well, my favorite dove gun is a 20 gauge Spartan coach gun, deadly on birds. I've shot teal with it, but have better guns for that. Thing is, though, the gun may not be as light as a Snake Charmer, but barely over 5 lbs my guess. It has interchangeable chokes. One can put a slug in the left barrel (rear trigger) choked cylinder, a shot load in the right (front trigger) choked either I/C or mod or, if you're me, I choked the gun I/C-Mod and leave it that way. Slugs shoot fine in a IC or Mod choke in the gun. I normally leave the I/C in the right, but I'd swap sides with the chokes for use as a combo gun, load the slug on the rear trigger is more intuitive for me for some reason.

I carry a couple of slugs when I'm dove hunting my place in case I see a hog while I'm hunting birds, lots of 'em there. I don't load the gun with a slug, just have 'em in a pocket just in case I hear hogs coming. But, a coach gun such as this makes a DANDY combination gun IMHO and it even fits inside my back pack broken down, often carry it that way strapped to my KLR650 when I go dove hunting. I'm too old and out of shape for much back packing anymore, so I ride Bugger, my KLR. :D

I realize 20 gauge ammo is a might heavier than .410 and bulkier, but it's a lot more compact than 12 gauge and a 20 gauge slug is 55 caliber or something near 'bouts, can do plenty damage at 50 yards. My gun groups foster slugs quite well. There's a little overlap in the barrel regulation, but not enough to sneeze at at 50 yards.

I had a Charter Arms AR7 once. Talk about compact and light and you can carry a 550 pack of .22 in the same space as a box of 20 gauge. No, it's not very powerful, but the gun was 1" at 25 yards accurate. In a true survival situation, killing deer would be a matter of a well placed head shot out to 50 yards. I realize the gun is illegal for hunting deer most states including Texas, but you did say "survival".

Also, a 20 gauge H&R single shot is lighter than my Spartan. I'd rather have the Spartan for actual use, though. I had a 20 gauge H&R. The Spartan is much lighter on my shoulder. :D Hell, my 12 gauges are lighter on my shoulder, especially my gas gun.

Just some off the wall thoughts on your conundrum. I think, though, there are better solutions than .410. JMHO. I'm a hunter, not a survivalist. I know what it takes to actually TAKE a deer, have taken dozens these last 50 years, none with shotguns, all with rifles and handguns, and a muzzle loader this year. In the future, I hope to use a compound bow and Rambo one. :D Just trying to put myself in your position and pontificate some possible solutions.

Have fun on the trail!

Oh, also, in a survival (only in a survival) situation if I didn't have a slug, I'd cut a shot shell. I wouldn't do that on a full choked .410, though, would almost SURELY wind up with no face or something. :rolleyes: But, when I was young and stupid, I did it with a 16 gauge single shot 30" full choke gun and still have that gun and it's in fine mechanical shape to this day. The "old timers" during the depression used this technique cause slugs were hard to come by and not cheap.

MCgunner
July 15, 2012, 08:06 PM
Oh, BTW, in west Texas, where I've hunted a lot, I've taken a lot of rabbit with a .38 WC for camp meat from a J or a K frame revolver. I do it at night in the headlights of my truck driving out to the pasture i wanna hunt, legal for rabbits in Texas. On foot, one could use a LED headlamp for the light. The rabbits freeze in the light making for a stationary target.

There are ways to do things if you're in a survival mode. But, another option is a .38/.357 magnum handi rifle, very versatile. I have a .357 Rossi lever carbine, 1.5" groups at 50 yards with a 105 SWC at 900 fps (small game), 4" groups at 100 yards with a 165 grain Keith SWC at 1900 fps, killer deer/hog load to 100 yards.

Jaymo
July 15, 2012, 08:37 PM
Parkalese also makes a 2.5" .410 load with 4 0000 (.375") buck pellets, and a 3" load with 5 of them.
They also make a a slug load for .410 that may interest you.

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