Is there a gun that shoots like 1911?


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DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 05:19 AM
I am not sure what I am getting into by asking this question but I have to ask it because I have no idea how to even search for it on Google (tried but nothing; didn't know the words to type anyway).

Is there a specific angle or something to the 1911 between the bore line and the grip, that is somewhat unique to the 1911? i.e., do guns vary this angle?

If so, then is there another gun that replicates the 1911 angle?

What I am trying to ask is, is there another gun that shoots the same as the 1911, without being a 1911?

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WNC Seabee
July 16, 2012, 07:03 AM
I haven't measured anything, but the Springfield XD feels much the same to me. It is a double stack though.

Pistol Ranch
July 16, 2012, 07:22 AM
A Google search found that the grip angle on a 1911 is BETWEEN 108 and 110 degrees. (109 Degrees??) Many handguns vary this angle.
There is some discussion that the grip angle of the 1911 is bad because when held with the forearm extended, the 1911 points at the ground.
The same could be said for a number of other handguns..IMO the grip angle is a matter of preference, I personally favor the Sig P220's grip and reliability.

P.R.

hAkron
July 16, 2012, 07:23 AM
The Ruger 22/45 is designed to feel like a 1911

http://www.ruger.com/products/2245/index.html

stoney1666
July 16, 2012, 10:24 AM
CZ 40B samd angle

Frankl03
July 16, 2012, 10:43 AM
You may find some guns that replicate the 1911 grip angle. 1911 has a trigger pull that I doubt you will find in another gun.

Also the weight and feel of a 1911 is different from most other firearms. of course 1911s come in a number of different sizes and weights.

holdencm9
July 16, 2012, 02:04 PM
If you are talking for training, then the Ruger 22/45 will feel somewhat similar. Same grip angle and thickness

Why do you ask? Do you like the way they shoot but not the way they look? (I can't imagine anyone NOT liking the way they look, but to each his own)

If you like the platform, but prefer not to shoot .45, there are plenty of 9mm 1911 options.

holdencm9
July 16, 2012, 02:19 PM
So I may have answered my own question because I saw your other thread about fixed sights point of aim. You wrote:

So, having said that, I guess I can say, I must be holding the gun properly with the 1911, but I am not getting anywhere near that accuracy with the 9mms, even though I have shot way more 9mm than the .45 (heck, I own the two 9mms and don't even remember ever shooting .45).

You also mentioned you have a Glock 19 and Beretta 92. The Glock uses a striker and a "glock-action" type trigger. Basically the striker is like 80% cocked and by pulling the trigger you cock it the rest of the way and then it releases. It can be fired quite accurately once you practice. The Beretta is double action (da/sa) and I assume you shot it in SA most of the time. Although I like the trigger pull in SA on the Beretta 92 it does not quite compare to a quality 1911 IMO, so that could explain why you had such good success with the 1911 right away. A 1911 will likely have a lighter and crisper trigger. Also the sights on the 1911 may have been a bit more precise, whereas the Glock and Beretta both have sights more for combat.

It sounds like you had a great experience with a 1911 but if you don't want to buy one then your best bet is to just practice more with the guns you do have. Both the Glock and Beretta but especially the Beretta are known to be quite accurate, you just need to practice. Also if you want to lighten the DA pull on the Beretta by a lot (and slightly lighten the SA pull) you can do the D-spring installation and get a little closer to the 1911 feel.

Hk Dan
July 16, 2012, 02:23 PM
HK USP45 is comparable (though when new the trigger is snarky). The newer HK45 is even better.

bigfatdave
July 16, 2012, 02:37 PM
The grip geometry is a very personal thing, if the 1911 angle/thickness/size works in your hand, then go with it.

The XD line of pistols sort of replicates the angle, it works for me but not everyone.
Glock and Beretta are very much NOT 1911-like in grip angle, some people can shoot them equally well or better (not me!)
For a cheaper ammo alternative, Rock Island Armory (AKA Armscor) makes 1911s in 9x19 and even a pretty good one in .22lr now ... they share the trigger mechanics and grip shape/angle with the 1911 because they're built on minimally modified 1911 frames.
Ruger makes the 22/45, which sort of replicates the 1911 grip and controls, personally I like the traditional Ruger grip angle better.
The CZ RAMI looks fairly similar, as do some H&K pistols, but not many of those are going to save you much money
The Colt pony/pocketlite/mustang are vaguely 1911-like in smaller size
The SIG P238/938 are based on the Colt mustang, and are quite 1911 like
Springfield makes their EMP, which is a 1911-based design built around the shorter cartridge length of .40s&w/9x19mm/.45gap/etc

This would be easier if I knew what you wanted to DO with a non-1911 1911-like gun ... and:
"I wanna do-it-all gun that has light recoil, eats cheap ammo, isn't expensive, is easy to clean, has alotta knockdown power, comes with nightsights and a tactical rail, etc etc"
... doesn't help.

Skylerbone
July 16, 2012, 03:00 PM
I know it's a horrible picture but illustrates the similarity between the M&P line from S&W and their rendition of the 1911.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164493&d=1337044838

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 04:16 PM
Thanks guys; as always you folks are awesome with your insights. This 1911 thing has me really puzzled because, as holdencm9 saw, it is a spin-off question from a recent gun range experience of mine, where I shot a 1911 essentially for the first time, and was doing so much better than with my own guns (9mms) that I am still a bit shocked that there would be any difference, and even that much of a difference. So I am trying to narrow down what were the mystery factors so that I can have a clearer idea what skills to pay attention to (primarily) and way secondarily possibly consider a 1911 (or such).

Back to the 1911, I had no idea there was that much variety in weight. I had SOME idea that 1911s were highly customized with many variants, but prior to this experience I had thought it was mostly furniture, or trigger jobs, etc. which should not affect overall weight that much. Anyway, the 1911 I picked up at the range that day seemed way lighter than "custom 1911s" that LGSs have been showing me over the years. All of those felt way thicker and heavier (as thick and heavy as my Beretta 92) but I really liked the overall ergonomics of the 1911 I shot at the range.

.45 is in itself not necessarily a problem for me; it's just that I invested so much already in 9mm, I really do not want to have to "go there" and think about putting dollars towards a .45 platform.

I have no idea if I would be so lucky as to be able to rent a 1911 in 9mm so I can narrow down the ergonomics even further. Probably not.

What is for sure is that I am going back soon to rent the 1911 and do 100 rounds and see if I was just lucky that day or there really is something about that 1911 that somehow helps my accuracy.

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 04:23 PM
The grip geometry is a very personal thing, if the 1911 angle/thickness/size works in your hand, then go with it.

The XD line of pistols sort of replicates the angle, it works for me but not everyone.
Glock and Beretta are very much NOT 1911-like in grip angle, some people can shoot them equally well or better (not me!)
For a cheaper ammo alternative, Rock Island Armory (AKA Armscor) makes 1911s in 9x19 and even a pretty good one in .22lr now ... they share the trigger mechanics and grip shape/angle with the 1911 because they're built on minimally modified 1911 frames.
Ruger makes the 22/45, which sort of replicates the 1911 grip and controls, personally I like the traditional Ruger grip angle better.
The CZ RAMI looks fairly similar, as do some H&K pistols, but not many of those are going to save you much money
The Colt pony/pocketlite/mustang are vaguely 1911-like in smaller size
The SIG P238/938 are based on the Colt mustang, and are quite 1911 like
Springfield makes their EMP, which is a 1911-based design built around the shorter cartridge length of .40s&w/9x19mm/.45gap/etc

This would be easier if I knew what you wanted to DO with a non-1911 1911-like gun ... and:
"I wanna do-it-all gun that has light recoil, eats cheap ammo, isn't expensive, is easy to clean, has alotta knockdown power, comes with nightsights and a tactical rail, etc etc"
... doesn't help.
You forgot "doesn't jam" and "keeps its resale value" hahaha :-)

Oh, BTW, can I ask, if I *do* get a 1911 (gosh I really do not want to go there! :-D) are there barrel kits that can turn it into a 9mm shooter, so I can turn it back to its original .45, without having to buy TWO guns (9mm and .45). I think I have seen a lot of 22LR kits for 1911 so I assume there must be 9mm "conversion" kits? Or are those gimmicky and not reliable?

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 04:28 PM
The Ruger 22/45 is designed to feel like a 1911

http://www.ruger.com/products/2245/index.html
Interesting. Maybe I will see if the range can rent me that gun. I have shot a Ruger 22 (I think the Mark 2 or Mark 3) so I am not sure if the Mark 2/Mark 3 has the same grip angle (now that you guys told me it is called the "grip angle").

EDIT: Actually probably I won't rent it. The 22LR is so much more different than 9mm/.45 that I am not sure it will help my training. I have shot 22LR before and it was easy to handle. So it must be the recoil (but it is weird since the .45 should recoil at least a little more than the 9mm and yet I shot the .45 better).

shaggy430
July 16, 2012, 04:32 PM
If you want something that has a similar look and feel of a 1911, in my opinion a Browning Hi-Power is pretty close.

Roadking Rider
July 16, 2012, 04:39 PM
Always felt that my CZ75B felt kind of 1911 ish. The 75 b is one darned fine pistol.

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 05:45 PM
So I may have answered my own question because I saw your other thread about fixed sights point of aim. You wrote:



You also mentioned you have a Glock 19 and Beretta 92. The Glock uses a striker and a "glock-action" type trigger. Basically the striker is like 80% cocked and by pulling the trigger you cock it the rest of the way and then it releases. It can be fired quite accurately once you practice. The Beretta is double action (da/sa) and I assume you shot it in SA most of the time. Although I like the trigger pull in SA on the Beretta 92 it does not quite compare to a quality 1911 IMO, so that could explain why you had such good success with the 1911 right away. A 1911 will likely have a lighter and crisper trigger. Also the sights on the 1911 may have been a bit more precise, whereas the Glock and Beretta both have sights more for combat.

It sounds like you had a great experience with a 1911 but if you don't want to buy one then your best bet is to just practice more with the guns you do have. Both the Glock and Beretta but especially the Beretta are known to be quite accurate, you just need to practice. Also if you want to lighten the DA pull on the Beretta by a lot (and slightly lighten the SA pull) you can do the D-spring installation and get a little closer to the 1911 feel.
Upon further thought, I think you are right, as I recall the 1911 trigger breaking crisper than my Beretta. I will pay more attention to the trigger when I try the 1911 again (probably the same exact gun, since they only have one 1911 for rental).

bigfatdave
July 16, 2012, 05:47 PM
Oh, BTW, can I ask, if I *do* get a 1911 (gosh I really do not want to go there! :-D) are there barrel kits that can turn it into a 9mm shooter, so I can turn it back to its original .45, without having to buy TWO guns (9mm and .45). I think I have seen a lot of 22LR kits for 1911 so I assume there must be 9mm "conversion" kits?

Anything is possible, with enough money/time/effort

But for practical purposes, no

the .22lr conversion kits use their own ejector, barrel and slide with breechface and extractor ... they can do that because there is room for all that in the slide of an oversized .22lr pistol
A 9x19 1911 will need a specialized slide with breechface and extractor, plus a specialized ejector in the frame

Picture of a XT22 1911 from Rock Island Armory:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e229/Microgunner/RIAXT22006.jpg
You can see the hook behind the barrel, that's the .22lr ejector. That .22 happens to be built on a .45acp frame, the vestigial .45acp ejector is pinned to the frame in the normal spot. A 9mm (or .38super) 1911 would need the slide cut to ride over an oddball ejector that rode somewhere in between those two points, a 9mm casing would rattle around on the breechface and would miss the .45 ejector

Luckily, once you have the gear for one 1911 pistol, you can just keep buying more of them endlessly - but at least you don't need new holsters!

ATLDave
July 16, 2012, 05:50 PM
Anyway, the 1911 I picked up at the range that day seemed way lighter than "custom 1911s" that LGSs have been showing me over the years. All of those felt way thicker and heavier (as thick and heavy as my Beretta 92) but I really liked the overall ergonomics of the 1911 I shot at the range.

Heavy, yes. Thick? Unless you're talking about a 2011 or some other double-stack mutation of a 1911, they are one of the thinnest autoloaders out there. The grip is somewhat long front to back, but thick? Of course, if the manufacturer sticks a picatiny rail on the bottom of it, that'll fatten it up.

ApacheCoTodd
July 16, 2012, 06:13 PM
Seems like my S&W 14 was very similar in angle and trigger as well - as long as I resisted mounting up some mongo target grips.

Auto426
July 16, 2012, 06:20 PM
There's more that goes into the shooting experience of a 1911 than just the angle of the grip. There's also the over balance, the shape of the grip, the specific grip panels that were on the gun, the length of the trigger, the straight back pull of the trigger, the weight of the trigger pull, the type of grip safety it had, and the type of mainspring housing it had. I'm sure that I could name a few other factors if I tried to as well.

Simply grabbing a different gun with the same grip angle isn't going to perfectly replicate the shooting experience you had with the 1911. If you enjoyed the experience that much, than it may be time to think about adding another gun to the safe. Variety is the spice of life, and going through it with just a single caliber would would have me bored pretty quickly.

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 06:26 PM
ATLDave - perhaps you're right. The weight might have given me a false impression of the thickness (or maybe those particular custom 1911 had slightly thicker grips; I recall they came as a pair in a box which the LGS was showing me; being totally ignorant about the 1911 I don't remember all the features of those particular custom guns that the LGS had probably described to me at the time).

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 06:28 PM
Variety is indeed the spice of life but the *spice* of life could also come in the form of the Wife saying (and I can just imagine it) "So, what about all this 9mm stuff that we already paid for?!" .... So...... we shall see.....

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 06:30 PM
Thanks bigfatdave for the photo and explanation re: 9mm on the 1911.

RetiredUSNChief
July 16, 2012, 06:39 PM
It's been noted earlier in this string that you've apparently had some issues with shooting differences between your 1911 and some other pistols. Perhaps this question is somewhat related to that issue.

Here's my pre-1983 two cents worth on this matter:

The first pistol I owned was an AMT II .22 Automag. Truely awesome pistol in that caliber...a load of fun to shoot and sweet to carry in the field. And as accurate as anything I could hope for.

The second gun I bought was a Colt 1991A1 .45 ACP. Again, a wonderful pistol that I could shoot the centers out of targets with no problem at all. Sweet as candy.

The third gun I bought was a Baretta 92FS. I couldn't hit <deleted> with it. There was no slop in the slide, no feed or ejection issues, no jamming. I just couldn't hit ANYTHING I was aiming at. My shots were all over the place.

Assuming that there was nothing wrong with the weapon because it was mechanically functioning perfectly, and my shots weren't consistently high/low/left/right, I had to stop and see what might be wrong with ME...or, perhaps, what was different about this pistol that was causing this problem, since I wasn't having this issue with my other two pistols.

The answer turned out to be the trigger. Not the fact that the first shot is double action (my other two pistols don't have this), but the fact that the Baretta trigger pivots, whereas the triggers on my other two pistols do not. They pull straight back.

Anybody with an ounce of brains, and experience with pistols, will tell you that trigger control is extremely important in maintaining your target sight. Especially since the short distance between your front and rear sights is much shorter than that of a long-gun. Any little thing which keeps you from maintaining your target sight through a smooth trigger pull, up to the point of release, will throw your aim off. I just didn't realize that a different type of trigger would have that drastic of an effect on my shooting.

As soon as I realized this, I started concentrating on proper trigger pull for this type of trigger while maintaining my target sight. My aim improved rapidly.

By the nature of the beast, the angle between the grip and the barrel for most pistols will be similar...but there are enough differences between human hands to mean that the slight differences between one particular pistol's grip angle and another may make a difference to some individuals. I've read some links which talk about the 1911 having a "bad grip angle"...meaning it doesn't naturally allow you to point the weapon without abnormally adjusting your grip to compensate.

I think this is bull...people are different, therefore grips will be different from person to person. If the gun fits your hand comfortably and the gun seems to naturally "point" at what you aim at when you extend your arm, then the grip angle for that gun is perfectly OK for you.

In fact, these two characteristics (grip and pointability) are at the top of my list for important characteristics any person should consider when purchasing any practical firearm. If it's not a comfortable weapon to hold and you have to hold yourself in an unnatural position to shoot something, then it doesn't matter what it looks like, how well it's built, or how reliable it is...you won't feel comfortable with the weapon in your hand and therefore you won't find any joy in shooting it.

If you are having a problem accurately shooting one particular pistol, but no problems with another, then consider what may be different about that pistol which may cause you to shoot differently.

Often it's not that the pistol is bad or that the shooter is bad...but that the combination of the two together isn't working out for some reason.

:):)

bigfatdave
July 16, 2012, 07:02 PM
Heavy, yes. Thick? Unless you're talking about a 2011 or some other double-stack mutation of a 1911, they are one of the thinnest autoloaders out there. this is a good point, 1911s are rather thin, and you can go even thinner by swapping out for thin grips.

D.D., If you shot a wide (left to right) one, it was a doublestack or had some kind of oddball grips on it - I run slimline alumagrips on mine, thin and tough for carry.

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 07:08 PM
Nah, I'm pretty sure it was a single stack. I remember feeling the magazine being thinner than the double stacks for my 9mms. This is the 1911 I shot recently, not the custom ones I was shown by the LGS.

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 07:09 PM
I also got alumagrips on my Beretta. They are sharp but I suppose very good against sweat, which I am not sure the trausch grips would. But this is another subject.

bigfatdave
July 16, 2012, 07:20 PM
Thanks bigfatdave for the photo and explanation re: 9mm on the 1911.
You're welcome
Variety is indeed the spice of life but the *spice* of life could also come in the form of the Wife saying (and I can just imagine it) "So, what about all this 9mm stuff that we already paid for?!" .... So...... we shall see.
Well, nobody said you had to abandon your stash of 9mm ammo in the woods, or anything.

Examples:
http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=51643&mfg=Armscor&mdl=1911&cat=1&type=Semi-Automatic+Pistol&cal=9MM&fin=&sit=&zipcode=43452
Officer's size 1911 in 9x19, with good sights, modern grip safety, etc
singlestack, takes shorter magazines than government and has a shorter grip as well as shorter barrel
good for carry, if RIA can make a shorty .45 work, there's no reason a shorty 9mm wouldn't, and 9mm defensive ammo is generally formulated for a shorter barrel in the first place
Takes fairly easy-to-find grips

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=51632&mfg=Armscor&mdl=1911&cat=1&type=Semi-Automatic+Pistol&cal=9MM&fin=&sit=&zipcode=43452
Government size 1911 in 9x19, modern features, good sights, safety lever on both sides (if you're a lefty, great ... otherwise a worthless feature as far as I'm concerned)
singlestack, full size grip, takes full size magazines
OK for carry
Takes extremely easy-to-find grips

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=51687&mfg=Armscor&mdl=1911&cat=1&type=Semi-Automatic+Pistol&cal=9MM&fin=&sit=&zipcode=43452
This is the fat one, doublestack government size in 9x19 AND .22tcm (a new round barely past wildcat stage)
Takes oddball magazines you can only get from RIA/Armscor
Expensive
TCM ammo only from Armscor so far
Takes oddball grips
... ... you probably don't want this one, yet

===

You don't HAVE to go to .45acp for a 1911-based pistol
There are purists out there who scoff at anything but .45acp, and to a degree, they have a point. The gun was designed around the .45acp round, and the further you deviate from that original design the harder it is to get parts or diagnose problems
BUT, 9x19 is a common enough chambering that you'll only be a little off of the mainstream path, I checked and Wilson makes magazines in government/commander or officer sizes, grips will interchange and you won't really be buying a second barrel or changing out your ejector anyway, probably.

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 07:29 PM
Chief - thanks for your very excellent explanation and sharing of personal experience. You probably hit the nail on the head. Yes I am trying to figure exactly what is the mystery factor with the 1911.

Deducing this further... I would imagine if I place my trigger finger LOWER down on the Beretta trigger (in SA mode) would minimize the effects of the trigger squeeze and the pivoting of the trigger (as you so aptly described). If not lower down then at least I would make a conscious decision not to allow the trigger finger to be higher than necessary and causing perhaps the exact minute (small) movement causing my shots to hit low.

RetiredUSNChief
July 16, 2012, 07:58 PM
Chief - thanks for your very excellent explanation and sharing of personal experience. You probably hit the nail on the head. Yes I am trying to figure exactly what is the mystery factor with the 1911.

Deducing this further... I would imagine if I place my trigger finger LOWER down on the Beretta trigger (in SA mode) would minimize the effects of the trigger squeeze and the pivoting of the trigger (as you so aptly described). If not lower down then at least I would make a conscious decision not to allow the trigger finger to be higher than necessary and causing perhaps the exact minute (small) movement causing my shots to hit low.
Glad you think I may have helped.

Here's the method I used to resolve my issue:

I used a stable bench and very carefully and slowly did some precision shooting with my Baretta at a short distance...about 3 or 4 yards. I braced myself in as stable and comfortable a position, using whatever means necessary to rest my gun and gun hand as still as possible.

When I did this, I was able to eliminate/minimize all the other minor factors which affect accuracy: movement of hands and arms while standing, heart beat, long distances, and so forth.

The ability to hit the target where I was aiming in a consistent fashion from such bench shooting at short ranges proved to me that the pistol was not at fault. This established the baseline performace capabilities that were possible between myself and the Baretta, if I could overcome whatever it was that was affecting my shooting.

From there, I stood up and took some slow, careful shots while standing, at the same 3 or 4 yard distance.

It was during these two stances (bench and standing) under these conditions that I discovered how important that pivoting trigger was to my shooting.

Once I realized what the underlying issue was, all I needed to do was continue practicing until this type of trigger pull was as second-nature to me as the ones on my other two pistols. With enough practice, there was little, if any noticable difference in my shooting when I transitioned from one pistol to another. I automatically fell into the right groove for whichever type of gun I was handling at the time.

LOTS of pysical factors between different pistol designs can have a significant effect on your ability to accurately shoot the pistol. As I said before, these don't necessarily mean the pistol or the shooter is at fault...merely that the differences have to be recognized and addressed.

Ever get a new cell phone or some new electronic device with a new remote control that doesn't quite work the way the one you were used to? Kinda the same kind of aggrevation, until you figure out how the new one works.

;)

RetiredUSNChief
July 16, 2012, 08:08 PM
Chief - thanks for your very excellent explanation and sharing of personal experience. You probably hit the nail on the head. Yes I am trying to figure exactly what is the mystery factor with the 1911.

Deducing this further... I would imagine if I place my trigger finger LOWER down on the Beretta trigger (in SA mode) would minimize the effects of the trigger squeeze and the pivoting of the trigger (as you so aptly described). If not lower down then at least I would make a conscious decision not to allow the trigger finger to be higher than necessary and causing perhaps the exact minute (small) movement causing my shots to hit low.
One other recommendation...

You can try adjusting your finger placement up or down on the trigger if you wish. However, I would recommend that you go for a "natural" placement of your finger...pretty much in the center of the curved "cup" of the trigger, maybe slightly below center. Don't fight your natural positioning of your finger if at all possible.

And make sure the pad of your finger tip is centered on the trigger. If you only place your fingertip (close to the fingernail) on the trigger, you will tend to "push" the pistol in the direction the finger is pointing. In other words, if you're shooting with your right hand, you will tend to push the front of your pistol to the left.

If your hooking the trigger into that first joint of your trigger finger, then you well tend to "pull" the pistol in the direction of your hand. In other words, if you're shooting right handed, you'll pull the front of your pistol to the right.

Center your finger tip on the trigger in the natural, "comfortable" spot and learn how the trigger responds/feels as you shoot.

:):)

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 08:39 PM
Right. Thanks.

DefiantDad
July 16, 2012, 09:49 PM
Well, looks like I am out the D-Spring option, as I got the 92A1 (poly trigger)

http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/BERETTA/92,%2096,%20AND%20CENTURION/cID1/mID2/dID36

rswartsell
July 16, 2012, 10:44 PM
To just try to simply answer the OP, no-not in my experience.

taraquian
July 17, 2012, 12:41 AM
I had a similar experiance when I bought my Witness Match in .40, I got to the range and started hitting everything I aimed at. I would try a CZ 75 (or clone) and see what you think, I find it very similar to my 1911and I am equally accurate with it.

I have a Bersa 9 and Taurus that I would miss the ground with if not for gravity, so there is something about the Witness and 1911's:)

Mauser lover
July 17, 2012, 01:08 AM
If you MUST have a 9mm, a Browning High Power is pretty close, but quite a bit easier to take down for cleaning. CZs are another close one, but with the CZ and the Browning you get a double stack magazine, so it feels fatter compared to a 1911. 9mm 1911s can be had, but they are all on the same frame, so if you buy a .45 frame, you could get a 9mm upper fitted to your gun, or do it yourself. Or vice versa.

without being a 1911

Why don't you want a 1911?

Nice sig line by the way :D

basicblur
July 17, 2012, 01:10 AM
Is there a gun that shoots like 1911?
Shoots like a 1911 or feels like a 1911?

I'm sure folks can chime in with what feels like a 1911, but AFA what shoots like a 1911, there are a ton of 'em - you just have to do your part.

Based on your earlier thread, it sounds like trigger pull is your biggest problem?
I believe someone on the other thread mentioned a lot of folks like the 1911 because the trigger can mask a lack of experience / skill - I completely agree.
As Ayoob is fond of saying; A light trigger pull is, more than anything else, a crutch for bad trigger technique.

A bit of dry fire practice (maybe with a DA trigger?) will go a long way toward learning how to move only the trigger finger without the rest of the hand wobbling.

I also tend to go against the grain a bit (although I see some schools are finally teaching this method), but my practice is mainly based on SD. As such, I use a 'controlled slap' pulling the trigger.
Like everyone else, first time I pick up a gun I'll check out the reset, trigger pull length, stacking, yadda yadda yadda, but that's probably the last time I'll use the trigger in that manner.
If SD is one / the main reason you have a gun, when crunch time comes and your life is on the line, are you going to be squeeeezing the trigger, releasing only to the reset point, etc? Chances are, you're going to be dumping rounds down range as fast as you can pull the trigger.
Couple that with two physiological changes that occur when you're hit with the adrenaline dump of a high stress situation - loss of fine motor skills, and greater than normal strength. How you think that combo is going to affect your trigger technique if you've practice squeeeeezing the trigger, etc?

I also go against 'conventional wisdom' and don't look at the front sight, but focus on the target. Again, it's human nature when presented with a threat to focus on the threat, so why fight human nature / physiology and learn an unnatural technique?
BTW - maybe it's my eyes or ?, but I am as accurate focusing on the target (maybe more so) than I am focusing on the front sight.

I see flames a-comin'! :neener:

9mmepiphany
July 17, 2012, 02:44 AM
BTW - maybe it's my eyes or ?, but I am as accurate focusing on the target (maybe more so) than I am focusing on the front sight.

I see flames a-comin'!
No flames, but I think that for that statement to have a qualitative value, we would have to know how accurate that is, at what distance and how quickly you are shooting.

To offer a comparison, I worked with a client a little while ago cleaning up their grip and stance. I also taught them to reset the trigger in parallel, as opposed to in series, and how to see the aligned sights more quickly. After a couple of hours, we were shooting a sub-1" group, at 5 yards, at 3-4 shots a second...with a little work, we hope to get that closer to 5/shots/sec

DefiantDad
July 17, 2012, 04:40 AM
If you MUST have a 9mm, a Browning High Power is pretty close, but quite a bit easier to take down for cleaning. CZs are another close one, but with the CZ and the Browning you get a double stack magazine, so it feels fatter compared to a 1911. 9mm 1911s can be had, but they are all on the same frame, so if you buy a .45 frame, you could get a 9mm upper fitted to your gun, or do it yourself. Or vice versa.



Why don't you want a 1911?

Nice sig line by the way :D
Well, I have not really decided whether or not I want to get a 1911. At this stage mostly my question was to try to narrow down what are the causal factors for my shooting difference between my two guns and the 1911, so I was trying to figure out what aspects of the 1911 can be replicated in other guns, and maybe try those guns and see if those are the aspects, etc.

Anyway, I have nothing against the 1911. I might end up getting one sooner or later (darn!) but at the moment it seems that, with the generous help of people here, it is the ole trigger control that I need to focus on.

PS - you reckon a bumper sticker with "Luke 22:36" might catch on? :-)

bikerdoc
July 17, 2012, 06:08 AM
it's just that I invested so much already in 9mm, I really do not want to have to "go there" and think about putting dollars towards a .45 platform.

Top - ATI 45
Bottom 9MM Taurus, Absofreakinlutly my favorite 1911. And I am a CZ fanboy from way back.


http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg134/bikerdoc1948/IMG_1263.jpg

holdencm9
July 17, 2012, 09:45 AM
Well, looks like I am out the D-Spring option, as I got the 92A1 (poly trigger)

AFAIK that shouldn't matter. I could be wrong.

You just remove the grips, depress the lanyard ring, tap out the pin that holds it in place, and remove the existing spring. Then you put in the new spring. It is just a lighter spring which is why it greatly decreases the trigger pull in DA drastically, but I think it has a small benefit effect on the SA pull as well.

The factory spring is way stronger than necessary (20lbs), to meet military requirements (they anticipate SUPER hard primers with NATO ammo I guess) and you can go as far down as a 13lb spring, but I just went with the 16lb.

Skylerbone
July 17, 2012, 09:53 AM
No flames, but I think that for that statement to have a qualitative value, we would have to know how accurate that is, at what distance and how quickly you are shooting.

To offer a comparison, I worked with a client a little while ago cleaning up their grip and stance. I also taught them to reset the trigger in parallel, as opposed to in series, and how to see the aligned sights more quickly. After a couple of hours, we were shooting a sub-1" group, at 5 yards, at 3-4 shots a second...with a little work, we hope to get that closer to 5/shots/sec

Agreed. Accuracy comes from fundamentals and speed comes with their repetition. Better to suffer the difficult work now if the goal is consistent proficiency otherwise your mileage will vary.

tarakian
July 17, 2012, 10:11 AM
Oh, BTW, can I ask, if I *do* get a 1911 (gosh I really do not want to go there! :-D) are there barrel kits that can turn it into a 9mm shooter, so I can turn it back to its original .45, without having to buy TWO guns (9mm and .45).

You can do that with the Para P series of double stack 1911s. I have a P14-45 that I changed to a 9mm by buying a new upper kit from Para. You need to fit the new upper to the frame, but after that, you can switch back and forth as you please.

9mmepiphany
July 17, 2012, 10:33 AM
You need to fit the new upper to the frame, but after that, you can switch back and forth as you please.
Do you use the same ejector with both the .45ACP and 9mm uppers?

bigfatdave
July 17, 2012, 08:11 PM
You need to fit the new upper to the frame, but after that, you can switch back and forth as you please.
Do you use the same ejector with both the .45ACP and 9mm uppers?Also curious, the only way I'm picturing it working is a slide/barrel mounted ejector or an off-center barrel in the smaller bore configuration

coalman
July 18, 2012, 01:11 AM
CZ75B is very good. But, you can't truly duplicate the 1911 trigger with a pivot design.

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