[H&Hhunter]

1. Rocky Mt. Goat.

The old say goes that goats start where sheep stop. Goats live above the tree line at high altitude in some of the steepest most treacherous country on the planet. That being said the logistics of a goat hunt demand top physical condition, mental toughness and a degree of mountaineering/ outdoors skill. The recovery can be the most difficult part of the hunt carrying out a 90 or 100lb pack at altitudes above 11,000 feet demands some serious conditioning and a never quit attitude. Trophy judgement is tough but it isn't that hard to approach goats once you find them. It's getting to them that is the hard part.

2. Mt Lion with hounds.

When done correctly hunting Mt. Lions with hounds is as tough a hunt as exists on the planet today. A fair average is about 8 to 10 days of hunting per cat caught. I didn't say per cat shot, I said per cat caught, because for every cat I've shot or had a client shoot we've let go three times that many. Lions live in steep country. On a typical Mt lion hunt be prepared to put in more miles than you have on any other hunt in your life, be prepared to do this in steep hostile country and be mentally prepared to spend a night out with minimal equipment and no real food, freezing your butt off near a fire for the night. The only easy day on Mt Lion hunt was yesterday.

3. Bighorn or narrow horn sheep.

Same deal as Mt. Goats if you aren't tough mentally and physically in shape don't it'll be a miserable experience.

4. A mature Mule Deer scoring over 180".

I'm talking about a free range public land or even private land free ranging wild mule deer. This is one animal that's eluded me for years. I've killed dozens of mule deer but I've never shot a true wall hanger. There is a huge amount of patience and a large degree of luck involved in getting a big mule deer buck on the ground.

5. Elk

Depending on where you are doing your elk elk hunting it can either be as simple as driving out to a local hay field and waiting OR it can be a lesson in pain and humility if done wild and free in the high country. I love elk hunting but sometimes it's a tough, tough deal.

6. Bear with hounds in the Rocky Mountains.

Same deal as lions BUT it's done at a much nicer part of the year making it a less dangerous experience. Bears will run much further during a pursuit than a lion but it's generally sunny and mild when you are chasing them. Sleeping out when it's 40 is much nicer than when it's 0 and snowing.

[MCgunner]

How about desert big horn in south western New Mexico mountains? I've heard that is some WAY rugged country to hunt in, no personal experience. I saw a TV show on it, once, looked too athletic for my old butt, can tell ya that! :D It was either desert big horn or Aoudad, don't remember.

[Pit4Brains]

^^^ Desert bighorns or Rocky Mountain bighorns here in Arizona. These creatures live in the most rugged, rocky, impassable terrain there is. Forget road hunting these critters.
If you get a tag, you can only bag one in a lifetime here so you better be ready to step out and get one.
Sheep don't stand on the side of the road... Instead they linger on high rocky perches where, if the impulsive hunter shoots it, the animal may fall several hundred feet destroying much of the carcas and quite often, the prized horns.
Going after big horns down here requires patience to get a tag, days of scouting, possible miles of backpacking with all your stores, etc...

I want to bag one one day but i don't dare apply for a tag right now just because I don't want to run the chance of getting drawn and not having a successful hunt..
For now I stick with cow elk. I get a tag every year, they are as easy to harvest as clubbed seals, and you can't eat horn or antlers anyway..

[Robert]

Hunting isn't that hard... I read about how easy it is to make a 1000y shot on deer all the time on the internet. ;)

I am so looking forward to my Elk hust this fall. Don't even care if I get one I am in it for the learning experience. If I get one, well that is just meat in the freezer.

[ColtPythonElite]

Snipes

[Pit4Brains]

Snipes

Just walk into the woods and call out, Woo loo loo, woo loo loo..
Or sais Hank Hill.

[ColtPythonElite]

I've been taken on many snipe hunts and have yet to bag one. My guides told me to use a paper bag, but I think I might need to switch to plastic.

[hogshead]

"6. Bear with hounds in the Rocky Mountains" Bears with hounds aint no picnic in the Appalachian Mnt's either.

[Art Eatman]

No argument with H&H, but I'd add aoudad in the Solitario country of south Brewster County, Texas. It's not all that high, but the unending upping and downing in a walking hunt is definitely wearying. You try to walk a ridge and you find a fifty-foot cut in your pathway. And maybe one or two hundred yards and you can do it again. Ol' Biggie mulie loves that country. :D

[H&Hhunter]

How about desert big horn in south western New Mexico mountains?

MCgunner

It was number 3 on my list.:)

3. Bighorn or narrow horn sheep.

Bighorn includes Rocky Mt and Desert. Narrow horns are Dall, fanin and snow sheep

[H&Hhunter]

Art,

I agree free ranging aoudad are every bit as tough to hunt as a desert bighorn sheep. And a tougher animal in general.

[Feanor]

I guess you boys do it differently out west as you hound big game species, here in Wisconsin, our hounders drink Jack & Cokes while driving around in SUV's, GPS tracking their Plott hounds.

Nothing tough about that.

[H&Hhunter]

I guess you boys do it differently out west as you hound big game species, here in Wisconsin

Yep we aren't even talking about the same universe apparently. It's pretty tough to understand the type of country I'm talking about if you haven't tried it out once or twice. First big difference is no roads on the majority of it then there is that elevation and steep terrain thing. Just a wee bit different than Wisconsin from what I can tell. Then there is that whole deal about not having any Mt Lions in Wisconsin to hunt along with the no Mountain issue and well you know, apples and oranges..... Or in this case flat land and honest to god no kidding rugged country. If us "boys" were drinking Jack & Cokes while busting butt in what amounts to a triathlon level amount of physical output at high altitude we'd have a lot of dead "boys" and girls out here in the mountains.

Having done sheep/goat hunting I can promise you that hunting lions behind hounds is every bit as demanding and more so in some cases as when you are physically done in on a goat hunt you can turn around. When that happens on a lion hunt you still have to get your dogs and that can take some time and trouble, there is no option to quit on a hound hunt before the dogs are done..

Just a quick question though.

You have personal knowledge of all hound hunters in WI and they all drink Jack & Coke while driving around tracking dogs with GPS collars? Because I'd sure hate to think you were posting your preconceived notions about something you really know nothing about.

[Feanor]

Yep we aren't even talking about the same universe apparently. It's pretty tough to understand the type of country I'm talking about if you haven't tried it out once or twice. First big difference is no roads on the majority of it then there is that elevation and steep terrain thing. Just a wee bit different than Wisconsin from what I can tell. Then there is that whole deal about not having any Mt Lions in Wisconsin to hunt along with the no Mountain issue and well you know, apples and oranges..... Or in this case flat land and honest to god no kidding rugged country. If us "boys" were drinking Jack & Cokes while busting butt in what amounts to a triathlon level amount of physical output at high altitude we'd have a lot of dead "boys" and girls out here in the mountains.

Having done sheep/goat hunting I can promise you that hunting lions behind hounds is every bit as demanding and more so in some cases as when you are physically done in on a goat hunt you can turn around. When that happens on a lion hunt you still have to get your dogs and that can take some time and trouble, there is no option to quit on a hound hunt before the dogs are done..

Just a quick question though.

You have personal knowledge of all hound hunters in WI and they all drink Jack & Coke while driving around tracking dogs with GPS collars? Because I'd sure hate to think you were posting your preconceived notions about something you really know nothing about.
I grew up in Alaska, I can imagine the terrain you're detailing here. And yes, I have a rather low opinion for the practice of hounding bear! In Wisconsin, you can bait the bear, and we do, with piles of stale baked goods(jelly donuts, sugared donuts, cookie dough), cooking grease, suet, whatever works. Why the need for adding the extra element of violence, by throwing a pack of Plotts after them?

[25cschaefer]

I would think African lions would be pretty hard to hunt in North America. Or tigers, I haven't seen too many of those around.

[Bobson]

2. Mt Lion with hounds.

When done correctly hunting Mt. Lions with hounds is as tough a hunt as exists on the planet today. A fair average is about 8 to 10 days of hunting per cat caught. I didn't say per cat shot, I said per cat caught, because for every cat I've shot or had a client shoot we've let go three times that many. Lions live in steep country. On a typical Mt lion hunt be prepared to put in more miles than you have on any other hunt in your life, be prepared to do this in steep hostile country and be mentally prepared to spend a night out with minimal equipment and no real food, freezing your butt off near a fire for the night. The only easy day on Mt Lion hunt was yesterday.
Not questioning your knowledge or experience, but what do you mean by, "when done correctly?" Are you saying that when its done correctly, its more difficult than when its done incorrectly?

Overall, neat group of hunts. Can't say I'm overly interested in any except elk, but then my entire hunting experience is pretty much limited to walking old logging roads looking for rabbits back in my teens.

I've been taken on many snipe hunts and have yet to bag one. My guides told me to use a paper bag, but I think I might need to switch to plastic.
On the other hand, sounds like your guides are successful on every hunt. ;)

[Shadow 7D]

I'll go first for snipes (actually a snipe is a game bird in India, not america...)

not big horn, Dall sheep, nothing like being 200M for a legal ram, and 2 days of technical climbing to claim the meat.

[Skyshot]

Killing a B&C whitetail on public land in the south.

[WVleo]

Today in America the most challenging hunt is the local guy with 4 mouths to feed hunting for meat in the pot ! His trophy is 4 full bellies daily ( thanks to freezers for the help ! ) . I believe the true hunt idea has been lost in America, thousands of Americans live with help from the land . Just a thought .......wvleo

[Readyrod]

The only time I remember seeing Mt goats in the real wild was in the Spatsizi Wilderness in Northern BC. I guess they would have been easy to shoot but as H&H said the hike in and out would have been a killer. Nice country tho. Saw an immense moose out there once too, sounded like a bulldozer as it was crashing through the woods.

[Victor1Echo]

Hunting with hounds is challenge? I was just reading about how hounds do all the work, and then hunter walks up and shoots the cat out of a tree with pistol. When I think of a challenge I think of statistics. For example, I will be hunting mule deer next month with a bow in the Eastern Sierras--extremely tough terrain, and the hunter success rate is 6%-- out of 300 tags. Another huge challenge here in California is wild pigs on public land, especially in SoCal near San Diego. The hogs are in some of the toughest places to access, then if you do get one,getting it out is another story.

[H&Hhunter]

"when done correctly?" Are you saying that when its done correctly, its more difficult than when its done incorrectly?

Legally and correctly done the hunter must accompany the hounds and guides from the time of release until the time of capture. Illegally and incorrectly done a guy could let somebody else do all the work then simply walk into where the cat has been caught and shoot it. Illegal but it happens.

Hunting with hounds is challenge? I was just reading about how hounds do all the work, and then hunter walks up and shoots the cat out of a tree with pistol.

Victor
See above.

And make no mistake about it hunting lions or bears with hounds is one of the most physically demanding hunt you can do. What you read was biased and incorrect I guess when you read this stuff you need to consider the source and the sources agenda.

[Gunnerboy]

How bout Hunting a 3pt min bull elk in a area where the harvest percentage is 6%........... or hunting the ever illusive blacktail in the jungles of the PNW one minute its sunny and dry 30seconds later its rain than hail than snow than sunny again.....

[H&Hhunter]

ow bout Hunting a 3pt min bull elk in a area where the harvest percentage is 6%........... or hunting the ever illusive blacktail in the jungles of the PNW one minute its sunny and dry 30seconds later its rain than hail than snow than sunny again....

I have hunted elk up in Washington state on the rainy side. What a nightmare!!

I've never hunted blacktail it's on my bucket list!!

[BBQLS1]

I was reminded of a book I recently read. Zane Grey doesn't write much non-fiction, but The Last of the Plainsmen was written about Buffalo Jones and some of the adventures in his life. Part of the book is about Zane Grey meeting with Buffalo Jones to do the research and go on a big cat hunt.

It's overall an enjoyable read. :)

[Art Eatman]

Used to be a cat hunter in Alpine, Texas, named Roy McBride. He and his dogs were hired for cougar in the US and for lions in Africa. Even up into his early eighties, he trained his dogs. They ran twelve to fifteen miles, every day.

So did he.

[Robert]

Everyone's hunting experience differs, but I know for a fact that H&Hhunter has been there and done that and knows of what he speaks. We can learn from everyone's time in the field, so guys keep it civil. I have no idea what it is to hunt White Tail in a state that does not allow rifles, so I would never speak on that topic...

[ZeroJunk]

As luck would have it I have been within 30 yards of a nice mountain goat, maybe 9 inches. He was on a ledge above the timberline on the east side of BearTop Mt. in the Bob Marshall Wilderness. I was just messing around having already filled my elk tag. I sat down on a ledge above him just to kill some time and there he was. No where to go. I didn't have a license anyway. There were a couple of full turn rams up above me three or four hundred yards. Didn't have a license for them either.

Now if I had a license I probably wouldn't have ben able to find either in a month.

[Feanor]

Everyone's hunting experience differs, but I know for a fact that H&Hhunter has been there and done that and knows of what he speaks. We can learn from everyone's time in the field, so guys keep it civil. I have no idea what it is to hunt White Tail in a state that does not allow rifles, so I would never speak on that topic...
Well we are keeping it civil, as I said they must do it far differently then they do here in NW Wisconsin, I have no experience with hunting cougar, but if it lives in the mountains, I can attest to the difficulty of hunting dall sheep, and goat in such terrain.

[oneounceload]

NV has the sheep and goats - those are truly some of the most physically challenging here.

One small one is also as hard - wild chukar found high in the rim rock and shale slopes. They run uphill faster than an Olympic sprinter, cackle at you and either fly away before you catch up or come right back down in your face at what seems to be 60mph zooming at sage brush height so you never hit them.......... :D

[Art Eatman]

Two facets to "difficult". Wiliness of the game critter is one. H&H is speaking to the physical challenge of rugged terrain and high elevations.

At 10,000 feet and higher, "There ain't any air in the air, up there!" :D I learned that in Doctor Park above Gunnison, at 10,500 and 11,000. 4º F didn't help much, either. One of those, "Are we having fun, yet?" hunts. :D

Even low mountains in the 4,000-foot elevation can be a wee tad rugged:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=543&d=1042925259

[H&Hhunter]

Excuse me? Agenda? 99% of all hunters despise hounding, in fact why don't you run a poll and open it up to the entire THR.ORG forum and take the true measure of what the popular mood happens to be toward "hounding?"

Been done right here on good old THR probably before you were a member. You might be surprised at the outcome. Of course take the same poll twice on two different days and you'll get completely different numbers. So it really means nothing.


we used to shoot the hounds as they trespassed our lands, now the hounders get reimbursed for the lost dogs by the taxpayers!

I wasn't aware that dogs could read therefore know they were trespassing? Hmmm I'll have to train my dogs to do that. Maybe I can train them to drive and write poems too? What do you think?

Hounding here, in NW Wisconsin isn't even remotely related to any type of hunting I've ever partook in, and its certainly not tough, how hard can it be to track a GPS signal from the comfort of your SUV?

I specifically said "hound hunting Mt lion" which specifically infers that it is being done in the west and specifically has nothing to do with WI and whatever the guys are hunting with hounds up there. So yeah as I've already mentioned you are not even in the same universe in your comparison. I will also say that your opinion of hound hunters in WI is biased narrow minded and generalizes.

They almost always trespass, its virtually impossible for the dogs to make such distinctions,

Not virtually impossible. Totally and completely impossible for a dog to know it's trespassing. Shooting a hunting hound here because it came onto your land while in legal pursuit is not cool. There have been folks killed over that one in the past. That kind of reminds me of some of the city folks who move out here and are shocked when cattle trespass on their land. I guess city folks think that animals can read and talk and sing children's songs too?

and then once the dogs tree the bruin, the hounder closes in, departs his/her vehicle, and shoots the helpless animal. Real challenging, it should be illegal!

You know some guys hunt bears over a bait. And what happens there is the bear unable to control it's appetite is attracted to the scent of the food. Then it begins to eat. The hunter will be strapped into a tree stand and covered in camouflage. And he'll be at very close range in fact any would say the range to the average bait killed bear is not even a challenge for the average hunter. He then, in a very cruel manner slams a bullet into the bear or if he's really cruel an arrow into the bears side causing it to die. The bear has no chance as he can't overpower his need to eat and the hunter doesn't show himself to the bear in a chivalrous act of fairness before shooting the "helpless" bear. That should be illegal.

In fact while we are at it lets make using any calls or attractants illegal. Lets make bow hunting illegal as it might not kill as painlessly or quickly as a bullet. How about hunting from a blind totally unfair and should be illegal. Scopes......ARE YOU kidding me! An unfair advantage! ILLEGAL! Camo unfair Illegal. Center fire rifles unfair and should be illegal.

The list goes on and on and it's slippery slope. Bear hunting with hounds and bait was made illegal her in Colorado about ten years ago. Various animal rights groups used the same arguments that you've used and played on the emotional heart strings of voters in the densely populated urban areas of the state and got a ignorant majority that live in a tiny portion of the state to out vote the folks who live in the rest of the sate and depend on hunting and conservation to control and maintain healthy bear populations in their back yards.

Hound hunting is the most effective tool a bear manger has in this area for controlling and maintaining bears. Hunting bears in Colorado is pretty much a matter of luck now days.

[Cosmoline]

If you're looking to N America, I think you have to include some Alaska hunts on there. This state has broken many experienced hunters. Often no roads at all and very limited support. If you're not having to struggle up and down endless mountains you're having to slog through endless swamps. If you're not waddling through tundra you're mired in devil's club.

And when you succeed and bag your moose or other game, you can look forward to a long session hacking and slashing the animal apart while being attacked en masse by more insects than you'd find anywhere this side of Borneo. Did you know this state boasts a kind of fly that swarms all over your mouth and eyes? That's on top of the bloodsuckers and noseeums and other things. Oh and hornets. Hornets driven half mad from freezeups who just want to go down biting and stinging you over and over again. And in addition to plants boasting long glass-like shards we have cow parsnip that causes any exposure to the sun to turn into a blistered second degree burn, ready for nice infection from exotic bacteria. Fun times!

And then you get to haul it all out, covered in gore and stinking like food in the middle of bear country! With the prospect of drowning at every river or creek crossing, falling off unmarked cliffs, breaking your leg and getting stranded, and then of course dying in a plane crash afterwards. And that's if you DON'T get lost.

Why I stick to squirrel and hare, frankly.

[Feanor]

You know some guys hunt bears over a bait. And what happens there is the bear unable to control it's appetite is attracted to the scent of the food. Then it begins to eat. The hunter will be strapped into a tree stand and covered in camouflage. And he'll be at very close range in fact any would say the range to the average bait killed bear is not even a challenge for the average hunter. He then, in a very cruel manner slams a bullet into the bear or if he's really cruel an arrow into the bears side causing it to die. The bear has no chance as he can't overpower his need to eat and the hunter doesn't show himself to the bear in a chivalrous act of fairness before shooting the "helpless" bear. That should be illegal.


Hunting over bait rightly comes with its own good measure of criticisms, however, as it relates to the practice of hounding, it is clearly superior in several ways, it doesn't aggravate landowners who are opposed to hunting in any form specifically from trespassing packs of hounds and their handlers, it doesn't seperate sows from their cubs scattering them hopelessly about the countryside, and it allows the hunter(s)the ability to "cherry pick" a proper specimen! It also doesn't contain any more violence then is of course necessary to the harvesting of the animal! Further, it allows for the gathering of valuable behaviorial data through use of photgraphic equipment over a period of "months," from static locations, which is all but impossible while hounding, it doesn't introduce dangerously distracted drivers to the rural Hwys and country roads, and it doesn't introduce panic, and stress into non-specific game animals, such as deer, gray wolves, bobcat, coyote, ect...

[Feanor]

Hound hunting is the most effective tool a bear manger has in this area for controlling and maintaining bears. Hunting bears in Colorado is pretty much a matter of luck now days.


Hmmm, thats interesting, why? Is the population stressed? Here in NW Wisconsin we have a population of bear that is nothing short of unprecedented. We estimate that at the time of European settlement there were likely no more then a few thousand black bear, maybe 5,000 or so, in the historic region that is now Wisconsin. I recall the celebratory mood surrounding the restoration of this population back into the 5,000 animal range back when I first moved down here.

Today, this population has soared to about 40,000 animals! totally, historically, unprecedented.

[ZeroJunk]

I thought this was going to be a good thread about hunting.

[Rembrandt]

Most challenging hunts in North America?

Taking a world record whitetail in Pennsylvania.......one the most heavily hunted states in America.

[H&Hhunter]

I thought this was going to be a good thread about hunting.

Yeah me too....:rolleyes:


In any case back to the main attraction which is challenging hunts. I purposely did not include Alaska because it's a whole other ball of wax. One of the toughest retrievals I've ever done was on a moose shot, stupidly by myself, in deep muskeg.

I've done some Grizzly hunting up in Northern AK and I can see were that could get real western in a hurry. And of course you've got the sheep and goats which are as mentioned never easy anywhere!

An animal which is seriously under rated as well is a free range North American Bison from what I've heard. I have never had the chance hunt a true wild bison before.

[buck460XVR]

There's a lot of tough hunts out there. But since very few of us actually need to hunt for our food, isn't it the challenge that draws us? If it's just sittin' in a box over a pile of bait watching an unnaturally high population of animals bred and raised just to be shot, doesn't that make us shooters instead of hunters? I always get a kick outta those guys on TV that go on a Canadian whitetail hunt. They get picked up at the airport, go sleep in a deluxe hunting suite only to be woke up the next morning to the smell of breakfast prepared by the outfitter's wife. They then ride with the outfitter to a heated blind prepared by the outfitter overlooking a pile of hay and corn. 6 or 7 hours later a good buck walks up and starts browsing on the corn and hay. The client pulls up his gun, shoots the buck and then calls the outfitter on his cell phone. Later while posing with the dead buck, the client comments on what a tough hunt it's been........:rolleyes:

I remember well my toughest hunts, successful or not. As I get older, they all get tougher. I've long ago gave up worrying about how other folks hunt, as long as it's legal. Their view of what's tough and what's hunting might just be different than mine. I just hope they enjoy the sport as much as I do.

Last year, in a large tract of public land, I came across a young guy a good mile from the road, like me, still hunting deer. Like me, he was by himself. Unlike me, he had Cerebral Palsy and had a 'ell of a time walking thru the swamps and thick brush. His good hand held his single shot rifle, while he flapped his crippled hand and arm to help keep his balance. He walked sideways lifting his good leg over obstacles while draggin' his bad leg over them. His face was bloodied from hittin' branches and the snow on his coat told me he had fallen several times. He had a hard time speaking clearly, so we talked kinda in sign language and words he wrote with his good hand in the snow. After I confirmed he was headin' in the right direction, he stumbled off with a determination I could only wish for. I watched him until he disappeared into some distant tag-alders, in those 200 yards I saw him fall twice more after catching his bad leg on somethin'. None of my hunts have ever been that tough.

[MCgunner]

I'll go first for snipes (actually a snipe is a game bird in India, not america...)

Wilson's snipe is doing quite well in America, thank you very much. I was on a snipe banding crew (one of my many jobs working my way through college) at A&M. We used 12 ft high nets in the marsh, set 'em, come back the next day and band snipe by the dozen, right down on the Brazos river outside of Welborn (near College Station). I was a wildlife and fisheries sciences major (wound up with fisheries option) and got the job through the department, paid a whoppin' $1.60 an hour. :D We also caught a lot of ducks and banded them, geese tore the nets down once, and we had to carefully cut a few alligator snappers out of the bottom of those nets.

Snipe are hard to hit, dodge and dart and never fly straight. If you can hit 'em, you're a "sniper". :D Texas has a season on 'em and they ain't bad eatin', but I ain't wasting expensive steel shot on 'em. I've shot a few in the past in my youth, a real challenge. But, I reckon this thread is about physical challenges, not marksmanship challenges. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson%27s_Snipe

http://sdakotabirds.com/species_photos/photos/wilsons_snipe_2.jpg

[gbran]

Mountain elk hunting is not the biggest chalenge, but the extraction is.

[murf]

gambel's or scaled quail hunted without a dog. lots of walking. smart birds.

just my two cents.

murf

[Readyrod]

This state has broken many experienced hunters. Often no roads at all and very limited support. If you're not having to struggle up and down endless mountains you're having to slog through endless swamps. If you're not waddling through tundra you're mired in devil's club.

And when you succeed and bag your moose or other game, you can look forward to a long session hacking and slashing the animal apart while being attacked en masse by more insects than you'd find anywhere this side of Borneo. Did you know this state boasts a kind of fly that swarms all over your mouth and eyes? That's on top of the bloodsuckers and noseeums and other things. Oh and hornets. Hornets driven half mad from freezeups who just want to go down biting and stinging you over and over again. And in addition to plants boasting long glass-like shards we have cow parsnip that causes any exposure to the sun to turn into a blistered second degree burn, ready for nice infection from exotic bacteria. Fun times!

And then you get to haul it all out, covered in gore and stinking like food in the middle of bear country! With the prospect of drowning at every river or creek crossing, falling off unmarked cliffs, breaking your leg and getting stranded, and then of course dying in a plane crash afterwards. And that's if you DON'T get lost.

Yea but it's manly, puts hair on your chest, lead in your pencil.


Quote:
I thought this was going to be a good thread about hunting.
Yeah me too....

I'm liking it. Don't let the naysayers get you down.

[Victor1Echo]

H and H,

Looking back over your hunts I noticed that at one time a person could probably hunt all those critters in one state like Colorado for next to nothing. How easy it to do these hunts today in terms of drawing/buying tags, and affordability?

[Art Eatman]

Victor1Echo, that would be a thread in itself. Feel free to start one if you wish, and maybe include other states' situations.

As far as dogs'n'huntin', Homo Sap's been doing that for thousands of years. Some places it's still in vogue; other places it's not. It's not really worth worrying about, one way or the other. "If you don't like it, don't do it." Suggested reading: "The Voice of Bugle Ann" by McKinlay Kantor and Robert Ruark's "The Old Man And The Boy".

[Pit4Brains]

gambel's or scaled quail hunted without a dog. lots of walking. smart birds.

And they always seem to crash onto a cholla patch or a Greythorn or Snakewood bush if they don't haul down to the bottom of a draw before they die.

[H&Hhunter]

And they always seem to crash onto a cholla patch or a Greythorn or Snakewood bush if they don't haul down to the bottom of a draw before they die.

Yes, I've noticed that too!!

[H&Hhunter]

Victor,

As resident you can still hunt all of that stuff for next to nothing money wise but you are going to need youth on your side if you are planning on drawing a sheep and a goat tag in one life time.

My goat tag took 14 years and I haven't hit a state sheep tag yet.

[wombat13]

This has been a very interesting thread. I'm curious about etiquette related to hound hunting. Let's say hound hunters plan a hunt on public land, but know there is a chance that the hounds may pursue the game onto private land (that is posted). Is it expected that an upstanding hunter would get permission from neighboring landowners first? Or do they simply let the dogs go and trespass onto private land to retrieve the hounds? Of course, I'm assuming that they don't harvest an animal on private land.

I'm interested because I just bought some land and it is a significant financial undertaking for my family. We saved the down payment and make the mortgage and tax payments (no small thing in NY) and should be able to decide who does what on the property.

[H&Hhunter]

Or do they simply let the dogs go and trespass onto private land to retrieve the hounds? Of course, I'm assuming that they don't harvest an animal on private land.

Wombat,

Thanks for bringing this up. First off we hunt on vast tracks of public land just for that reason, we do not like to be poor neighbors and we try to avoid private lands at all costs. However it has happened in the past where our dogs have trespassed.

First off we'd never shoot a treed animal on private land that is poaching. So what we do if it occurs is try to gain permission from the land owner to go retrieve the dogs and be on our way. Most folks out here are understanding and intelligent enough to know that sometimes this happens and that a trespassing by hounds in pursuit is not intentional. Proper etiquette demands and a sensible person who finds hounds treeing on his property will simply pull the dogs off tree and tie them or hold them back allowing the the treed animal to escape and then either let them go after the animal has departed your property or simply call the number that we have engraved on every dog's collar and we'll come get them, or in our area most folks know us so they'll either bring the dogs out to the kennel latter or inform somebody who has a phone and they'll call or radio us and we'll pick up the dogs. Which invariably ends up in a friendly cup of coffee and a couple of hours worth of good natured bull session. These are the same ranchers for whom we've dropped everything to chase down and remove a calf killing lion or bear when needed and with whom we have a strong bond and working relationship. This is how it usually goes down, and always goes down when the men you are dealing with are salt of earth good folks living off the land who understood how things work in remote country.

Improper etiquette is going into spaz mode and panicking if you find a pack of baying hounds on your property. The WORST thing you can do is start shouting at the hounds or shooting into the air, all that will do is energize the hounds and make them more aggressive at the base of the tree. Well .....I take that back the WORST thing you can do is shoot the dogs as it may well get you killed or beaten severely in some areas of the country. I've heard of some guys coming uncorked over his prize hunting dog being shot. Killing another mans dogs is a highly hateful and hotly emotional event and it is not advised. A good lion dog can sell for upwards of $15,000 and I guarantee shooting it is more trouble than you are willing to need in your life. But most of all it's just plain stupid and unnecessary when the solution is so simple and harmless.

[wombat13]

Wombat,

Thanks for bringing this up. First off we hunt on vast tracks of public land just for that reason, we do not like to be poor neighbors and we try to avoid private lands at all costs. However it has happened in the past where our dogs have trespassed.

First off we'd never shoot a treed animal on private land that is poaching. So what we do if it occurs is try to gain permission from the land owner to go retrieve the dogs and be on our way. Most folks out here are understanding and intelligent enough to know that sometimes this happens and that a trespassing by hounds in pursuit is not intentional. Proper etiquette demands and a sensible person who finds hounds treeing on his property will simply pull the dogs off tree and tie them or hold them back allowing the the treed animal to escape and then either let them go after the animal has departed your property or simply call the number that we have engraved on every dog's collar and we'll come get them, or in our area most folks know us so they'll either bring the dogs out to the kennel latter or inform somebody who has a phone and they'll call or radio us and we'll pick up the dogs. Which invariably ends up in a friendly cup of coffee and a couple of hours worth of good natured bull session. These are the same ranchers for whom we've dropped everything to chase down and remove a calf killing lion or bear when needed and with whom we have a strong bond and working relationship. This is how it usually goes down, and always goes down when the men you are dealing with are salt of earth good folks living off the land who understood how things work in remote country.

Improper etiquette is going into spaz mode and panicking if you find a pack of baying hounds on your property. The WORST thing you can do is start shouting at the hounds or shooting into the air, all that will do is energize the hounds and make them more aggressive at the base of the tree. Well .....I take that back the WORST thing you can do is shoot the dogs as it may well get you killed or beaten severely in some areas of the country. I've heard of some guys coming uncorked over his prize hunting dog being shot. Killing another mans dogs is a highly hateful and hotly emotional event and it is not advised. A good lion dog can sell for upwards of $15,000 and I guarantee shooting it is more trouble than you are willing to need in your life. But most of all it's just plain stupid and unnecessary when the solution is so simple and harmless.

Thanks for the clarifications. My response in a situation when hounds were "trespassing" on my property would depend on a number of factors:

1. How long does it take for the owners to get their dogs/contact me to ask permission? My wife is petrified of dogs and she shouldn't have to be in fear on her own property.

2. What was the attitude of the owner when he retrieved his dogs. "Very sorry, won't let it happen again" would go over a lot better than "stuff happens" or some kind of superior attitude. What would probably work best is if the owner invited me to come along on a hunt.

3. Does the owner tell any lies such as "I got permission from the owner" or "I didn't know the property was posted"? Any kind of lie would result in an immediate call to the Sheriff for trespassing.

My biggest concern in all of this is safety and my family's feeling of well being. If my wife or children were scared more than once by a pack of dogs they wouldn't want to go to our camp and that means I wouldn't go to the camp as often.

Finally, I hope that we all agree that anyone who becomes "uncorked" enough to do violence because their dog was shot on someone else's property deserves the prison term they are likely to get.

[Certaindeaf]

Wolverines! woohoo!!

seriously, good luck.

[H&Hhunter]

Wombat,

Is this even really a concern for you? Are there hounds men actively running dogs in your area? If so maybe you should get to know a few of the locals who do it, they can answer your questions far better than I as I'm sure they have different ways of doing things than I do as the hunting would be entirely different in that area.

Your wife has an irrational phobia of dogs for whatever reason. I'm sorry to hear that. But lets try and introduce a bit of reality into this. You state that you care for your families safety as any man should. Hunting dogs do not present a safety issue to your family. They hunt animals and when they are hunting they ignore people for the most part even when they are treed. They bark and bay but are not dangerous to people. So any fear of these dogs in irrational. That's the simple reality. The dogs would pose no danger to you or your family. And I've already described to you how to make them quit baying, simply tie or hold them off until the critter departs your land and then either keep them or let them loose they'll soon be gone. It really as simple as that. No drama needed.

Finally and obviously if somebody commits murder they should be justly punished. All I am trying to convey to you is that people become emotionally bonded with their dogs both working dogs and pets. If you are a student of history you'll find that more than one shoot out/range war has been started over a shot dog. It's simply not a smart practice. Anytime you involve guns and hot emotions bad stuff can happen.

[wankerjake]

At least as far as Arizona is concerned, coues deer is a tough hunt. I've heard it referred to as the "poor man's sheep hunt" more than once. They can get into some nasty country but it's fun to go after them.

I would love to hunt behind dogs for bear or lion, looks awesome. I'd love to see some dogs work first hand. Once while archery deer hunting I could hear hounds chasing something down the thick, nasty canyon from me. It was way too thick and steep to see down there. I could hear whatever it was they were chasing and guess it was a bear by the amount of noise it made. Could hear it climbing a tree at one point. It didn't stay there though, it came down. The dogs baying kept getting closer and closer as they approached the spot where the animal treed briefly. After that the baying got further and further away. It was in one of the larger tributaries of Oak Creek Canyon. Nasty, nasty country. I can't even imagine how the hunters were following that animal. It took them on a run for their money, I'll tell you that!

We found a lost hound out there one year too. Good looking dog, I don't know my hound breeds. Owner was glad to get her back :)

[H&Hhunter]

I can't even imagine how the hunters were following that animal. It took them on a run for their money, I'll tell you that!

Excitement is what keeps you going at first but after a while it's just sweat and determination. The really cool thing from a dog owners perspective is listening to the hounds and being able to hear and know your individual dogs from their voices and knowing what they are doing and that they are doing it right. Knowing that your hard work and time in training have paid off are a hugely gratifying experience.

[ZeroJunk]

When I was a kid we always had beagles. They usually just ran loose. We didn't have AC and in the summertime I can remember being sung to sleep by them cold trailing a rabbit. No deer around here back then.


Anyhow, I remember when I first started hunting with my father. I had a single barrel shotgun and I shot a rabbit when we jumped it. My father was a little perturbed and I didn't understand why.

But, I soon found out it was more about the dogs. I know some dog hunters that don't even carry a gun.

[H&Hhunter]

I know some dog hunters that don't even carry a gun.

In NM we have a pursuit only season in which we can run our dogs. We will run and catch more often just run, but we don't kill, we take a picture and pull the dogs back and let the cat or bear go. For every animal I've killed or guided other hunters to a kill behind hounds I've let ten times that many go. Hound hunting is the only form of catch and release hunting there is.

[Art Eatman]

Then there is the intellectually challenging: Find and shoot the biggest whitetail buck in the pasture.

The deal is, you must first check out a whole bunch of bucks, which is a chore in itself. Then when you're satisfied that you've seen Ol' Biggie, you must then find him again in order to get a shot.

A big buck generally only makes one mistake in a season. If that mistake was when you first saw him during your survey--Hey, best luck, Bubba! :D

It's sort of a sour feeling when you shoot a "really nice buck" and then see his grandaddy wandering off, snickering at you.

[jbkebert]

I loved hearing our three beagles down in the creek bottoms. Nothing better we are considering getting another beagle now. I have made the mistake of showing my girls pictures of beagle pups.

[wombat13]

Wombat,

Is this even really a concern for you? Are there hounds men actively running dogs in your area? If so maybe you should get to know a few of the locals who do it, they can answer your questions far better than I as I'm sure they have different ways of doing things than I do as the hunting would be entirely different in that area.

Your wife has an irrational phobia of dogs for whatever reason. I'm sorry to hear that. But lets try and introduce a bit of reality into this. You state that you care for your families safety as any man should. Hunting dogs do not present a safety issue to your family. They hunt animals and when they are hunting they ignore people for the most part even when they are treed. They bark and bay but are not dangerous to people. So any fear of these dogs in irrational. That's the simple reality. The dogs would pose no danger to you or your family. And I've already described to you how to make them quit baying, simply tie or hold them off until the critter departs your land and then either keep them or let them loose they'll soon be gone. It really as simple as that. No drama needed.

Finally and obviously if somebody commits murder they should be justly punished. All I am trying to convey to you is that people become emotionally bonded with their dogs both working dogs and pets. If you are a student of history you'll find that more than one shoot out/range war has been started over a shot dog. It's simply not a smart practice. Anytime you involve guns and hot emotions bad stuff can happen.
I don't know yet if this is a real concern for me, since we just bought the property. I prefer to think ahead rather than be caught by surprise.

I am probably reading too much into your posts, but you seem to convey a common attitude among dog owners that it is the responsibility of people who don't own dogs to adjust their actions to accommodate other people's dogs. I see it the other way around. In a public area it is up to the dog owner to maintain control of their animal and keep it away from people who are afraid of it or just don't want to be jumped on and licked. I also expect that people will keep their animals off my property and will take responsibility for mistakes.

I also disagree that my wife's fear of dogs is irrational. Irrational means without reason or logic. A fear of butterflies is irrational. Dogs, on the the other hand, do bite and sometimes even turn on their owners. My wife is a physician and has seen too many people, particularly children who have been severely injured by dogs, frequently their beloved pet. None of the plastic surgeons we know own dogs, because they have sewn up so many dog bites on children's faces (kids often get bit on the face since their face is lower to the ground than adults). My wife may have a different evaluation of the probability that a dog is going to bite than you do, but her fear is not irrational.

Please don't get the impression that I hate dogs or dog owners. When neighbor's dogs have gotten loose I have taken the dogs back to their homes. For the most part dog owners are responsible, friendly people. Unfortunately, there are enough who aren't very responsible and who cop an attitude when you ask them to leash their dog that it leaves a sour taste.

Anyway, thanks for the information on hound hunting. I doubt I'll ever have to put it to use, but I also pay for fire insurance that I doubt I'll ever need.

[Art Eatman]

In the areas in Florida where hunting with dogs is allowed, it is the owner's responsibility to hunt in areas where trespass is unlikely (as in the Appalachicola National Forest, for instance) and the owner is fully responsible for any damages. The dogs must be identified by information on the collar.

SFAIK, the decline in the use of dogs in hunting is in large part due to the chopping up of large tracts of land into smaller segments, with suburban and exurban residential development exacerbating the problem.

[Feanor]

Improper etiquette is going into spaz mode and panicking if you find a pack of baying hounds on your property. The WORST thing you can do is start shouting at the hounds or shooting into the air, all that will do is energize the hounds and make them more aggressive at the base of the tree. Well .....I take that back the WORST thing you can do is shoot the dogs as it may well get you killed or beaten severely in some areas of the country. I've heard of some guys coming uncorked over his prize hunting dog being shot. Killing another mans dogs is a highly hateful and hotly emotional event and it is not advised. A good lion dog can sell for upwards of $15,000 and I guarantee shooting it is more trouble than you are willing to need in your life. But most of all it's just plain stupid and unnecessary when the solution is so simple and harmless.

Landowners are completely within their rights to destroy trespassing dogs, were you, or your vile ilk, to escalate such trespass into a threat of violence, such as "beating" or "murdering" a landowner exercising such lawful rights in my neck of the woods, you'd be joining the dogs.

[Feanor]

Thanks for the clarifications. My response in a situation when hounds were "trespassing" on my property would depend on a number of factors:

1. How long does it take for the owners to get their dogs/contact me to ask permission? My wife is petrified of dogs and she shouldn't have to be in fear on her own property.

2. What was the attitude of the owner when he retrieved his dogs. "Very sorry, won't let it happen again" would go over a lot better than "stuff happens" or some kind of superior attitude. What would probably work best is if the owner invited me to come along on a hunt.

3. Does the owner tell any lies such as "I got permission from the owner" or "I didn't know the property was posted"? Any kind of lie would result in an immediate call to the Sheriff for trespassing.

My biggest concern in all of this is safety and my family's feeling of well being. If my wife or children were scared more than once by a pack of dogs they wouldn't want to go to our camp and that means I wouldn't go to the camp as often.

Finally, I hope that we all agree that anyone who becomes "uncorked" enough to do violence because their dog was shot on someone else's property deserves the prison term they are likely to get.
Poltt hounds are notorious for trespassing, more so then just an average dogs inability to navigate, or discern property boundaries are at work here, they are relentless once upon the scent, and as a consequence there are frequently conflicts with private landowners, or often, we don't even know about the trespass until afterward.

Also, here in NW Wisconsin, they(hounders)do harvest bear from private property when it suits them, then remove the carcass to public land if need be to avoid discovery. I've had three such bears killed on my land in the last eleven years(NW blue hills of Rusk county).

There was a time when these men were much less bold, but as the tradition of hunting has contracted, the pursuit of "sport killing" with hounds has remained largely intact, which has given the impression that they are numerous, they are not. Don't let them obfuscate the danger that their hounds pose either, there's a reason why wolves kill them.

[H&Hhunter]

Poltt hounds are notorious for trespassing, more so then just an average dogs inability to navigate, or discern property boundaries are at work here,

So not only can dogs read and understand property boundaries but some can read better than others? Please explain.....

I'm guessing that if you are seeing more plott hounds around nit's because more people are using that breed in your area. It has nothing to do with other dogs being able to read your no trespassing signs.

Don't let them obfuscate the danger that their hounds pose either, there's a reason why wolves kill them.

This might just qualify as the single most incoherent statement and one of the greatest misunderstanding of animal behavior in the history of THR. If I am reading it right you are saying that wolves kill hounds because they pose a danger to......Who? Humans or wolves?

Wolves will kill any other canine they find in their hunting territory that is documented wolf behavior. Whether it's a hound dog or a poodle or a coyote makes no difference.

Take a look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXCvLzDNWz0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEB30KLpTMs

[DesertFox]

I'm a spot and stalk hunter. I do not hunt with dogs or over bait. I do not high-fence hunt. Some of the most difficult hunting that I have done is for bear in the Frank Church River-of-no-return Wilderness area in Idaho. But camping overnight was below tree-line, within reach of H2O, not as much snow to deal with either.

Goats and sheep complicate things due to season/weather/snow. On a spike camp, one may find themselves out of reach of a water supply for an extended period. I've had to be resupplied by aerial drop w/ MREs and H2O.

Chasing elk in this terrain is about a 23 mile per day event - horseback uphill, hiking downhill. Not for the timid.

[Feanor]

This might just qualify as the single most incoherent statement and one of the greatest misunderstanding of animal behavior in the history of THR. If I am reading it right you are saying that wolves kill hounds because they pose a danger to......Who? Humans or wolves?


Plott hounds aggression on the trail disinguishes them from the rest of the field, this is why 98% of all dog depredations by wolves in the great lakes, are Plott hounds, you sound like an adolescent, what with your silly groping about for insults.

So not only can dogs read and understand property boundaries but some can read better than others? Please explain.....



It was explained, they are notoriously aggressive while on the scent, this trait often leads to consistent conflicts around private property, especially, as most often, the handler(s)are miles off in their SUV or pick-up, leaving us(the landowner)alone to deal with them, sometimes they are discovered with terrible injuries delivered by bear, or gray wolves.

[H&Hhunter]

Feanor,.

Plain and simple you have your opinion based on your experience. What you describe and what I've experienced are two entirely different things. The form of hound hunting you describe doesn't even remotely correlate to how we do it and or it's done my part of the country. It would be impossible to sit in your truck and track your dogs here. The road systems and terrain don't allow it for the most part, but I've already explained that.

The OP (That's me) described or attempted to describe the most physically challenging hunts in North America. Plain and simple running hounds after bear or lion in mountainous country is one of the most physically challenging hunts in North America whether you want to believe it or not or whether or not you agree with hound hunting. Since you are never going to try it it's kind of mute point anyway so lets just drop it OK. You can do your thing in WI. And I'll still guide hunters here in NM and CO. And it doesn't affect you or me in any way.

Deal?

PS

The only people aggressive hounds I've ever encountered were Blood Hounds I won't have anything to do with them. In fact for liability reasons I won't have any people aggressive dogs around. Never have and never will.

[Feanor]

Plain and simple you have your opinion based on your experience. What you describe and what I've experienced are two entirely different things

As I said from the very beginning, you must do things differently out rocky mountain west way, then they do herebouts.

[dragon813gt]

Bagging an Elk on public land in PA. First good luck getting a tag. And then good luck getting one on public land. It's an extremely limited area.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

[T.R.]

Most challenging? Seeking permission to archery deer hunt in Chester County, Pennsylvania. I gave up after over 50 negative responces!

TR

[dragon813gt]

Really? I have permission at 5 spots totaling close to 1k acres. I find getting permission is rather easy.


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[ZeroJunk]

Landowners are completely within their rights to destroy trespassing dogs, were you, or your vile ilk, to escalate such trespass into a threat of violence, such as "beating" or "murdering" a landowner exercising such lawful rights in my neck of the woods, you'd be joining the dogs.

I love sabre rattling.

I own and lease a couple of thousand acres. Pretty much for N.C.

I have seen all manner of dogs. Beagles, Irish Setter, Walkers , mutts, even a Pit Bull.

Never occurred to me to shoot one of them.

If one is threatening you or your livestock is one thing.

But, anybody who shoots one just because it is "tresspassing" ???

It is curious that one so protective of wolves wants to shoot a dog.

[rajb123]

wild turkey

[buck460XVR]

Landowners are completely within their rights to destroy trespassing dogs

Actually Feanor.........Sporting dogs are protected here in Wisconsin. It's one thing if they attack you, your loved ones, your pets or your livestock, But shoot one just cause it's trespassing and someone finds out, you're up a creek without a paddle. It's not even legal to shoot a dog chasing deer in Wisconsin anymore, only a warden can do that. If you have an old sick dog that needs to be put down, you need to either take it to the vet or SSS. It's gotten that bad.

Now as for your hostility towards hounds and houndsmen, you are not alone here in Wisconsin. The topic of trespassing dogs and their owners was one of the most heated discussions at the Spring Conservation hearing I went to. As you said, running hounds here is much different that in the large tracts out west or how it used to be here 50 years ago. For those that don't know, unlike out west where you have parcels of public land consisting of 100s of thousands of acres. Public land tracts here is Wisconsin are much smaller and cut up, many times with small private parcels in and around. Out west ranches can consist of tens of thousands of acres. Here in Wisconsin, an average farm is 160 to 220 acres. A farm of 500 acres is huge. Mixed with these small farms are small tracts of private recreation land, 20 acres and up. To get permission to hunt a continuous area big enough to run hounds all day is nearly impossible. So many houndsmen don't even try. They let the dogs out on roads adjacent to private land they have no access to and let them run into the wind and then drive to the next road or parcel that they do have permission for to wait them out. They watch on their GPS tracking units where the dogs are heading. If they miss them on one road, they go on to the next road and so on. They either shoot the 'yote off the road(illegally) or they let the dogs kill them when they finally catch them. If they miss or the 'yote is got more wind left than the dogs, they let fresh dogs out. The excuse they always give when questioned is the same one H&H gave...."dogs can't read signs and don't know property lines" because that excuse has worked in the past. Even tho they let their dogs out knowing full well the dogs would run across property the had no permission to hunt. And yes, the owner is responsible and pays the fine for a dog caught trespassing....and yes Wardens have gotten smart to these violators. Thing is, how does a normal landowner know whose dogs are running across his property unless he catches them? Friend of mine had this exact thing happen to him. Guy asked for permission and my friend said no. Guy went down the road and let his dogs out. My friend saw this and called the warden. Owner of the dogs denied he let them out on purpose, even tho the tracts in the snow proved different. Friend set leg hold traps on his property and sprayed the surrounding area with 'yote urine(legal to do for 'yotes). Next time he checked them the tracts in the snow showed someone had came onto his property and released a dog caught in the traps. Next he set Conibears the same way and put up several game cams(again, perfectly legal to do for trapping 'yotes). Next time he checked them he found a dead dog and his cameras gone. Tracks showed the owner came and removed the collar and radio transmitter and left the dead dog. My friend found his game cams smashed and in his mailbox. This is not the exception around here.....it is the norm. Large areas of public land have been predator hunted out. The majority of 'yotes are on private land with no access.....and yep according to their owners, their trespassing dogs can't read and don't know property lines. I know this is not how you hunt H&H, and probably not they way it is in most other parts of the country, but this is how it is around here.

[Art Eatman]

Thanks, buck. Good explanation. And enjoyable to see that without having to wade through a bunch of macho hostility. :)

But enough. This thread is like that old Ernest Tubb song, "Driftwood on the River"--and we've drifted way downstream...