Marine Special Operation Command Order 4000 Colt Rail Guns


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cuba
July 20, 2012, 12:38 AM
I think it speaks volumes that the Marines would chose the 101 year old 1911 platform as their close quarter battery of arms, instead of one of the more modern pistols like the Glock, M&P, XD, that are touted to be superior and more reliable.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/07/16/rumint-marsoc-selects-colt-railgun/

http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac210/Cuba1911/marsoc1911.jpg

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NG VI
July 20, 2012, 01:01 AM
Remember that this is a small, non-standard unit, and that the 1911 carries a ton of nostalgia and a certain type of culture with it.

I wouldn't read anything at all into it besides that the Marines special operations group decided it would be really cool to have new 1911s instead of the pedestrian M9s everyone else has to carry.

StrikeFire83
July 20, 2012, 01:03 AM
Remember that this is a small, non-standard unit, and that the 1911 carries a ton of nostalgia and a certain type of culture with it.

I wouldn't read anything at all into it besides that the Marines special operations group decided it would be really cool to have new 1911s instead of the pedestrian M9s everyone else has to carry.

This. I'd take one over a Beretta, too.

jungle
July 20, 2012, 01:15 AM
All those poly and aluminum pistols are just fine, but they lack the heft needed when it comes time to smack someone upside the head or across the bridge of the nose.:D

cuba
July 20, 2012, 01:27 AM
Just can't understand why the new M45 needs to be fitted with a dwell recoil spring like the Colt 10mm to function a 45 acp round ?

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

dogtown tom
July 20, 2012, 01:54 AM
"Military Times" is one of the least reliable sources of information on the internet.

barneyrw
July 20, 2012, 02:06 AM
The U.S. Marine Corps doesn't do anything because it's "cool". You obviously no nothing about the Marine Corps.

usp9
July 20, 2012, 08:28 AM
I wouldn't read anything at all into it besides that the Marines special operations group decided it would be really cool to have new 1911s instead of the pedestrian M9s everyone else has to carry.

Actually these new 1911s are to replace old 1911s the small special unit already used and not a "new" change to a 100 year old weapon. Marine special units have issued 1911s for a long time and will continue to do so.

The M9 is still the standard sidearm for all others.

Nushif
July 20, 2012, 08:33 AM
The U.S. Marine Corps doesn't do anything because it's "cool". You obviously no nothing about the Marine Corps.

There's a difference between pride and sensible argument. "Nowing" that line can be useful.

I have full faith that this is a decision based entirely on tradition and culture, seeing how often pistols are the determinant of a military gunfight.

Hangingrock
July 20, 2012, 09:15 AM
The decision is based on end user experience and the history of the armorer’s to maintain the pistols.

Fishbed77
July 20, 2012, 09:18 AM
The U.S. Marine Corps doesn't do anything because it's "cool". You obviously no nothing about the Marine Corps.

You're forgetting their cool, flashy dress blues...

NG VI
July 20, 2012, 09:48 AM
The U.S. Marine Corps doesn't do anything because it's "cool". You obviously no nothing about the Marine Corps.

OK.

Then what led them to carry on with the 1911 platform instead of switching to the new standard pistol in the first place?

I'd rather have one of those than an M9, but I can think of about a half dozen pistols I'd rather have than either, especially during marches and any time working in extreme (ok even moderate heat, I'm a born and bred northerner and I start to go south above eighty degrees) heat.

Since pistols are largely as decisive in battle as a woobie, I'm not sure my hypothesis that they are using a 1911 in .45 because the leadership likes them and wants to carry on their separatist traditions is wrong.

Taurus 617 CCW
July 20, 2012, 09:53 AM
Thanks for posting that, I was looking for confirmation of their contract.

Creature
July 20, 2012, 10:04 AM
My understanding is that MARSOC was specifically looking for a modern 1911 platform...

kcshooter
July 20, 2012, 10:12 AM
That was dumb.

Everyone knows the 1911 is an unreliable platform.




/sarcasm

\popcorn

scramasax
July 20, 2012, 10:27 AM
The 1911 and the Ka-Bar. Both might not be the best in everyone's eye. But they have stood the test of time. Remember that both are for close range. I want the largest largest projectile that is practical. Also the metal platform is more versatile and rebuildable. Now if they would just re-issue the Thompson.

NG VI
July 20, 2012, 10:39 AM
Aluminum is metal too.

The Thompson weighs (significantly) more than even an M16, let alone the M4 that actually makes the whole subgun class obsolete. Weighs more, about a fifth the usable range, significantly less terminal effectiveness, not a whole lot going to bat for the Thompson aside from nostalgia.

The 1911 is a great old platform, but let's be real, for people who are in fights determined often by who throws the most projectiles, grenades, bombs, mortar shells, rockets, and artillery, and who have to carry seventy to a hundred pounds of gear with them, going with the heaviest pistol ammunition around in maxed-out weight pistols is not a great idea. Especially since they give up a significant amount of capacity in the process.

The pistol doesn't matter much, but the math going into a troop's load doesn't say much in favor of an all-steel 1911, and honestly doesn't really give much of a reason to issue pistols at all.

cuba
July 20, 2012, 10:40 AM
The 1911 gained a reputation from the beginning as being very reliable, it wasn't till the private sector tried to ring out the most accuracy from them by tightening all the tolerances, that the 1911 started to fail, I'm sure that Colt will build these 1911 with in Army spec tolerances, and fit them with the correct magazine feed lip configuration, to perform reliably all the time and every time, also the USMC evaluated all the modern close quarter battle platform pistol and decided on what they thought was the best.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

boricua9mm
July 20, 2012, 10:40 AM
Interesting discussion in this ARFcom thread seems to suggest that the Colt actually failed the testing: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_49/127530_USMC_may_go__Colt.html

Fuel for the fire...

2wheels
July 20, 2012, 10:44 AM
OK.

Then what led them to carry on with the 1911 platform instead of switching to the new standard pistol in the first place?

I'd rather have one of those than an M9, but I can think of about a half dozen pistols I'd rather have than either, especially during marches and any time working in extreme (ok even moderate heat, I'm a born and bred northerner and I start to go south above eighty degrees) heat.

Since pistols are largely as decisive in battle as a woobie, I'm not sure my hypothesis that they are using a 1911 in .45 because the leadership likes them and wants to carry on their separatist traditions is wrong.
MARSOC is hardly the only SF unit that has pistols other than the M9 in their armories.

There may be a bit of nostalgia involved in this purchase, but on the other hand they've been using 1911s in training and combat for a long time, they obviously know and trust the platform, so maybe their attitude is don't fix what ain't broke?

All they're really doing is replacing the worn out and mismatched 1911s they've been making do with for some time now anyways.

Reloadron
July 20, 2012, 10:49 AM
You're forgetting their cool, flashy dress blues...
First one must understand the U.S. Marine Corps. We are talking an organization based on over 200 tears of tradition unhampered by progress. Actually as to the dress blue uniform it reflects the heritage of the corps from that high tight collar to the red piping and red stripes on NCO trousers. Everything about the uniform has meaning. Believe me I wouldn't kid you about that! :)

The Marines adopted the 1911 pistol in 1913 and this is a pretty good read on the pistol. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol)

The Marines have had a love affair with the 1911 for close to a hundred years and for that hundred years the pistol has served them well. This is a 3/2010 thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=514285)on the same subject.

One of the Marine's stipulations for the new service pistol was it must use the standard 1911 magazines. I guess if you have a million lemons you make lemonade, and if you have several million 1911 magazines you buy 1911 style pistols to use what you have. Marines are also frugal by nature. :)

A Google will bring up a dozen hits and stories of what is going on with all of this. It has been in the works for years with them finally deciding on Colt.

Semper Fi
Ron

barneyrw
July 20, 2012, 03:10 PM
You also obviously know nothing about the Marine Corps.

barneyrw
July 20, 2012, 03:15 PM
The Marine Corps is not about "flashy dress blue" it's about killing the enemy, and they do that well.

GunnerShotz
July 20, 2012, 03:56 PM
Aluminum is metal too.
The pistol doesn't matter much, but the math going into a troop's load doesn't say much in favor of an all-steel 1911, and honestly doesn't really give much of a reason to issue pistols at all.

If it runs out of bullets, maybe an all-steel 1911 will make a more serious dent in the other guy's skull??? Just saying.

All those mags are certainly a good point too; and yes, Marines are most certainly frugal... but also effective.

sgtstryker
July 20, 2012, 05:20 PM
OK, I can't let my Brothers down. So, the Marine Corps went with the Colt Rail gun. It will replace some Kimbers and older, worn out Colts being used. The Marine Corps has the smallest budget and believe me, this country gets more bang for the buck from this great fraternity of warriors. So, MARSOC Marines will get a fine pistol to carry to the fray, outstanding. And if you compare the Marine Corps to ANY other branch...Hell, there is NO comparison..

Water-Man
July 20, 2012, 06:36 PM
^^^The BS begins!

Dr.Rob
July 20, 2012, 06:57 PM
From Colt's facebook page today:

WEST HARTFORD, Conn., July 20, 2012 — Colt Defense LLC has been awarded an Indefinite-Delivery/Indefinite-Quantity contract by the U.S. Marine Corps for up to 12,000 M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistols (CQBP), plus spares and logistical support. The new CQBP is a direct descendant of the iconic Colt M1911 adopted by the U.S. military in 1911 and carried as the primary sidearm through all the major conflicts of the 20th century.



The CQBP contract is for a five-year period and has a potential value of up to $22.5 million. The CQBP expands on a long history of MARCORSYSCOM re-building original Government-issue 1911s, primarily for use by Force Recon and MARSOC units.


So all rumors aside, that's the contract. UP to 22.5million for 12k pistols and spares. Per unit that's a pricey Colt. ;)

FMF Doc
July 20, 2012, 07:34 PM
OK, I can't let my Brothers down. So, the Marine Corps went with the Colt Rail gun. It will replace some Kimbers and older, worn out Colts being used. The Marine Corps has the smallest budget and believe me, this country gets more bang for the buck from this great fraternity of warriors. So, MARSOC Marines will get a fine pistol to carry to the fray, outstanding. And if you compare the Marine Corps to ANY other branch...Hell, there is NO comparison..
^ Bingo! This is not some new contract introdcing a new pistol. This is a contract to replace the Kimbers they they bought, that didn't hold up the way they were told it would. When they went with the Kimbers origainally, the also bought several thousand magazines, and about 6 million rounds of .45ACP. It only makes sense that they would get another and better platform when they moved away from the Kimbers.

Walking Dead
July 20, 2012, 08:14 PM
Wouldnt it be easier to use real ammo in the M9?

NG VI
July 20, 2012, 09:05 PM
also the USMC evaluated all the modern close quarter battle platform pistol and decided on what they thought was the best.

No they didn't. If they had the requirement that any competing pistol use standard 1911 magazines, then they certainly did not test anything other than several manufacturer's version of the 1911 platform.

Sergei Mosin
July 20, 2012, 09:10 PM
Wouldnt it be easier to use real ammo in the M9?

It would, but treaty obligations make that impossible. If you're stuck with ball - and the armed forces are - .45ACP is a sight better than 9mm.

cuba
July 20, 2012, 09:28 PM
Interesting that their criteria for the 1911 M45 is that it be equipped with the firing pin safety feature, it doesn't strike me that the Marines would make any decision in haste, but would move forward with a well thought out plan.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

TG13
July 20, 2012, 10:26 PM
apparently, there's a place for the 1911 and the .45acp..

ILLINI
July 20, 2012, 11:39 PM
It sounds like another niche order by one of the service branches. The military isn't giving up on the Beretta any time soon... Illini

http://www.berettausa.com/usarmypurchasesadditionalberetta9mmpistols/

ApacheCoTodd
July 21, 2012, 01:03 AM
Looks like Colt skunked Kimber on the re-order, if Kimber was even in the running.

One_Jackal
July 21, 2012, 01:47 AM
The Marines will make due with the 1911. There is one thing about a Marine that is certain. He will do anything in his power to get back home.

The contract for 4000 1911's had nothing to do with providing the best weapon for our marines. It's about the fat kick back the purchasing officer received. Remember to a soldier a handgun is pretty much a status symbol. When you can call in an airstrike who is going toe to toe with sidearms?

Double Naught Spy
July 21, 2012, 02:10 AM
While Colt may have gotten the contract, it looks like they are going to have a lot of problems to clear up before delivery. Several of the Colt test guns developed cracks over the course of 12000 rounds.


http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/20/marsoc-winning-colt-guns/

cuba
July 21, 2012, 02:27 AM
Yea, but that shouldn't reflect any negativity toward the 1911 battery of arms, but on Colts forging process and steel metallurgy.

shoot safe,shoot straight, and have fun

PabloJ
July 21, 2012, 02:32 AM
From Colt's facebook page today:

WEST HARTFORD, Conn., July 20, 2012 — Colt Defense LLC has been awarded an Indefinite-Delivery/Indefinite-Quantity contract by the U.S. Marine Corps for up to 12,000 M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistols (CQBP), plus spares and logistical support. The new CQBP is a direct descendant of the iconic Colt M1911 adopted by the U.S. military in 1911 and carried as the primary sidearm through all the major conflicts of the 20th century.



The CQBP contract is for a five-year period and has a potential value of up to $22.5 million. The CQBP expands on a long history of MARCORSYSCOM re-building original Government-issue 1911s, primarily for use by Force Recon and MARSOC units.


So all rumors aside, that's the contract. UP to 22.5million for 12k pistols and spares. Per unit that's a pricey Colt. ;)
Another fine example of fleecing of American taxpayer by securing inferior and more expensive product. Glock 21 would have been less expensive and better weapon for our troops.

cuba
July 21, 2012, 02:39 AM
I guess the Marines are used to being in the heat of battle and they figured that a Glock would melt when subjected to all that heat.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

Coal Dragger
July 21, 2012, 02:52 AM
As a former Marine, with some time in the sand box I can relate how much I despise the M9. Having extensive experience shooting both M9's and 1911's I greatly prefer the 1911. Simply stated, it is easier to make bullets go where you want them with a 1911 than it is with an M9. For reference my last pistol qual score with the M9 was a 387 out of 400 which is easily an expert rating. I think at the time with a 1911 I could have cleared a high 390 or even a perfect score. Of course at this time I was doing a lot of competitive shooting with a 1911.

Of all the many types of service pistols I have shot, the 1911 is by far the easiest to actually shoot well.

armarsh
July 21, 2012, 11:06 AM
From Colt's facebook page today:

WEST HARTFORD, Conn., July 20, 2012 Colt Defense LLC has been awarded an Indefinite-Delivery/Indefinite-Quantity contract by the U.S. Marine Corps for up to 12,000 M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistols (CQBP), plus spares and logistical support. The new CQBP is a direct descendant of the iconic Colt M1911 adopted by the U.S. military in 1911 and carried as the primary sidearm through all the major conflicts of the 20th century.



The CQBP contract is for a five-year period and has a potential value of up to $22.5 million. The CQBP expands on a long history of MARCORSYSCOM re-building original Government-issue 1911s, primarily for use by Force Recon and MARSOC units.


So all rumors aside, that's the contract. UP to 22.5million for 12k pistols and spares. Per unit that's a pricey Colt. ;)

$1875 each? :eek: I wonder what gives there? I always thought there was savings to be had by buying in quantity.

ApacheCoTodd
July 21, 2012, 12:33 PM
$1875 each? :eek: I wonder what gives there? I always thought there was savings to be had by buying in quantity.
High yes, but remember that the number includes "laid up" spares, magazines and possibly/probably a transition and training package for the "new" pistol.

Pay for the pistol.... pay for the proposed repair and sustainment parts.

Reloadron
July 21, 2012, 01:34 PM
$1875 each? :eek: I wonder what gives there? I always thought there was savings to be had by buying in quantity.
This is like the government buying those pesky $600 claw hammers that I can buy at the hardware store for $12 each.

There is quite a bit going on behind the scenes. Colt as the manufacturer in this case does not totally spec the pistol out. The government has their requirements and each requirement cost money. Every operation in the manufacturing process for each pistol is documented by serial number. Right down to every little machining operation and if the receivers are heat treated the lot numbers and records of the process are recorded. The list of military specifications and manufacturing specifications is endless and keep in mind every operation is documented. The government ends up with a .45 ACP pistol and six pounds of paper on each pistol outweighing the pistol.

You want a $12 claw hammer? Then Home Depot is fine. You want a claw hammer meeting a dozen specifications including rockwell hardness testing and full blown QA & QC inspections for every operation in the manufacturing process? Then it cost $600. :)

That is My Take...
Ron

FMF Doc
July 21, 2012, 03:46 PM
I suppose I am in the minority of Veterans on here, in that I do not despise the M9. I liked it so much that it was the first pistol I bought as a CCW holder. I do dislike the 124gr FMJ NATO round we are forced to shoot, but that is not a reason to hate the platform. If it were a Glock 17, Sig P226 or any other platform, a 9mm FMJ is a poor fight stopper. If you are forced to use non-expanding bullets, then bigger bullets make bigger holes, and it is hard to argue with the .45ACP.

gunnutery
July 21, 2012, 06:27 PM
I'm not a 1911 guy so I'm really just asking (not trying to bash it) but are the pics in this blog post normal after 12,000 rounds? It says that all test pistols showed the same cracks in the same places.

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/20/marsoc-winning-colt-guns/

cuba
July 21, 2012, 07:07 PM
The cracks in the 1911 slide that are in question, should not reflect negatively toward the 1911 battery of arms, seeing the original 1911A1 survived 75 + years of combat use with out any signs of this sort of failure, the crack in these 1911 are a direct result of poor manufacturing by Colt, not poor platform, and I'm sure that these deficiencies came be easily corrected.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

Auto426
July 21, 2012, 07:20 PM
The story behind those photos is largely unsubstantiated. I believe they originated over on Arfcom, posted by someone who claims to have been a part of the testing of the pistol before it's adoption. The problem is the story he posted and the photos are the only things out there. Now they are getting plastered across the net and no one seems worried about questioning their authenticity.

The only other source I've come across some posts by Brent (the manager of te Colt custom shop), who says that 5 of their prototypes went for 16,000 rounds without any type of hard failure. The exact testing conditions are unknown.

Coop45
July 21, 2012, 07:36 PM
The Marines will make due with the 1911. There is one thing about a Marine that is certain. He will do anything in his power to get back home.

The contract for 4000 1911's had nothing to do with providing the best weapon for our marines. It's about the fat kick back the purchasing officer received. Remember to a soldier a handgun is pretty much a status symbol. When you can call in an airstrike who is going toe to toe with sidearms?
Airstrikes are nice, but sometimes a 1911 or an entrenching tool is nice to kill an enemy with so you can get his weapon and ammo to shoot back at his buddies.

gunnutery
July 21, 2012, 08:07 PM
The story behind those photos is largely unsubstantiated. I believe try originated over on Arfcom, posted by someone who claims to have been a part of the testing of the pistol before it's adoption.

I didn't realize that's where the pics came from. I guess I hadn't though about their authenticity. Thanks for the clarification.

barneyrw
July 22, 2012, 12:54 AM
That's obviously from someone who has never seen real combat.
I was a Marine Corps platoon commander then company commander in Vietnam in 1968 and 1969. The 45 was my issue weapon and usually that and my K-Bar were the only weapons I carried. The 45 saved my life on several occasions and I personally saw an NVA assault stoped by one Marine with a 45.

usp9
July 22, 2012, 09:06 AM
Being the HK fanboy that I am, I wonder why the heavier, costlier, lower capacity Colt was chosen over the HK45. :scrutiny:

Reloadron
July 22, 2012, 11:09 AM
Being the HK fanboy that I am, I wonder why the heavier, costlier, lower capacity Colt was chosen over the HK45. :scrutiny:
One of the contract requirements was the new version would accept and use the standard 7 round M1911 magazines. I don't know that HK even bid the contract or submitted test pieces?

Ron

cuba
July 22, 2012, 01:30 PM
Guess the Marine Corps thought the 1911 was better suited in all respect, then the HK for the task at hand.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

Reloadron
July 22, 2012, 02:34 PM
Guess the Marin Corp thought the 1911 was better suited in all respect, then the HK for the task at hand.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun
That's Marine Corps, there is an e at the end of Marin. :)

Those little green amphibious people can get fussy about that. That includes former Marines too!

Ron

PabloJ
July 22, 2012, 02:51 PM
It is sad to realize that our elite troops will be getting Colt 1911 that Estonians are retiring in favor of the H&K USP. The fleecing of American taxpayer continues by stupid government functionaries giving contracts to companies that should have been out of business years ago. oH yeH.:rolleyes:

2wheels
July 22, 2012, 03:30 PM
Being the HK fanboy that I am, I wonder why the heavier, costlier, lower capacity Colt was chosen over the HK45. :scrutiny:
Costlier? Does the HK45 not go for over 1K? Sounds right about what the Colt costs on the civilian market.

Said it before, they didn't really choose the 1911 over any other gun. They're just updating the stocks of 1911s they have now, the same ones they've been trusting their lives to for years now.

If that makes all the HK fanboys cry... Oh well...

cuba
July 22, 2012, 03:32 PM
Well I knew that, just fixed it, excuse my foresight, carelessness is one of my strong suits.

Marine Corps

shoot safe, shoot straight,and have fun

barneyrw
July 22, 2012, 03:34 PM
<<"It is sad to realize that our elite troops will be getting Colt 1911 that Estonians are retiring in favor of the H&K USP.">>

This contract is for special ops, not for general issue, to be used when the mission dictates a larger caliber weapon may be better. Besides, I don't think the Marine Corps cares what the Estonians are doing.

NG VI
July 22, 2012, 06:21 PM
This contract is for special ops, not for general issue, to be used when the mission dictates a larger caliber weapon may be better. Besides, I don't think the Marine Corps cares what the Estonians are doing.

How often does switching from one service pistol caliber with non-expanding bullets to another service pistol caliber with non-expanding bullets make any difference at all?

solvability
July 22, 2012, 06:41 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun

A gun with a rail is not a railgun.

Coal Dragger
July 22, 2012, 06:55 PM
Sure are a lot of 1911 haters on here, especially the plastic frame fanatics. I find this amusing more than anything else. I particularly enjoyed the comparison of the US Marine Corps decision to that of the mighty war winning Estonians, who's prowess in battle is famous.

Maybe it hasn't occurred to the plastic frame fanatics that the 1911 platform has worked well for over 100 years at doing what a good sidearm should do; namely making bullets go where you want them to under stress in the most effective and user friendly manner possible. This requires a good trigger that is crisp, easy to manipulate, and consistent. I have been able to shoot plenty of Glocks, HK's, a few XD's, and some other less popular plastic frame service sized pistols and frankly compared to a decent 1911 they are not as easy to shoot well due to having lousy triggers.

The plastic pistol makers seem more concerned about making a product that can be manipulated by the lowest common denominator. This makes them popular with agencies that have to issue a large number of handguns to poorly trained individuals who will probably never train enough to become really really proficient. For that application they are nearly unbeatable, but for someone who is going to receive a lot of training and is dedicated to becoming the best shooter they can be there are better platforms to get them to that goal and to use once they get there. Can you train enough to overcome a crappy trigger? Yes you can, but why bother if you have a better alternative available?

2wheels
July 22, 2012, 08:21 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun

A gun with a rail is not a railgun.
You are absolutely correct. However, a Colt 1911 with a rail is a "Rail Gun", since that is the name that Colt chose to give their railed 1911.

Georgia45cal
July 22, 2012, 09:51 PM
Some semantic assassins in this thread.

dogtown tom
July 22, 2012, 10:26 PM
PabloJ It is sad to realize that our elite troops will be getting Colt 1911 that Estonians are retiring in favor of the H&K USP.
Whats sad is thinking that what the Estonians do is relevant.:D

Pick a country bigger than New Hampshire.:rolleyes:

Skylerbone
July 22, 2012, 10:47 PM
I found interesting that the pistols with significant failure were #s 11, 12, 14 & 15. Not a mathematician or numerologist but Colt only sent 6 prototypes... Also of note is the final picture of a spring plug (damaged) sans Tan Ceracoat.

Mine was a cursory glance at the information and nothing more. I would sooner "fleece" taxpayers (yours truly being one) for service sidearms than for ANY of the multi-billion dollar "social welfare" programs or a trillion dollar one our Court saw fit to allow. Perhaps they should have finally ruled on whether government has an unlimited ability to tax citizens for any purpose, or perhaps they did just that.

barneyrw
July 23, 2012, 01:37 AM
<<"How often does switching from one service pistol caliber with non-expanding bullets to another service pistol caliber with non-expanding bullets make any difference at all?">>

Probably not often, but again they are for special ops, when they may make a difference.

CmdrSlander
July 23, 2012, 02:51 AM
I'll just leave this here: http://i49.tinypic.com/6s71uu.png

PabloJ
July 23, 2012, 05:20 AM
One of the contract requirements was the new version would accept and use the standard 7 round M1911 magazines. I don't know that HK even bid the contract or submitted test pieces?

Ron
People who made the deal possible will find "shoeboxes full of cash" under their desks?

usp9
July 23, 2012, 08:40 AM
<<"How often does switching from one service pistol caliber with non-expanding bullets to another service pistol caliber with non-expanding bullets make any difference at all?">>

Probably not often, but again they are for special ops, when they may make a difference.

Under certain circumstances, they do in fact use HP ammo, but the point is made... same ammo equals same result regardless of the pistol model.

Sebastian the Ibis
July 23, 2012, 10:12 AM
So are these replacing the Marine's Swords or are they going to be used as real weapons?

Hangingrock
July 23, 2012, 12:41 PM
The Keyboard Multitudes telling or suggesting to the Marine Corps what they the Marines should or should not do in regards to weapon procurement. The absurdity of it all should not be lost on the multitudes.

Coal Dragger
July 23, 2012, 02:41 PM
The multitudes being mall ninja tacti-cool gun shop comandos are likely not aware of how silly they are.

Kind of like how insane people don't know they are insane.

barneyrw
July 23, 2012, 03:32 PM
<<"The multitudes being mall ninja tacti-cool gun shop comandos are likely not aware of how silly they are.">>

That's exactly where some of the comments are coming from.

2wheels
July 23, 2012, 07:33 PM
Looks like the second guy is recovering from recoil, there's brass flying if you look closely.

That first guy on the other hand... Needs a good smack on the head.

checkmyswag
July 23, 2012, 07:45 PM
USMC x 1911 = look for cover

They are both great if that's your thing.

Watch your lane.

Coop45
July 23, 2012, 07:53 PM
I'm sure Gen. Amos will read this thread and call up procurement and get them straightened out. They are probably just trying to make him look bad because he is the first non-grunt Commandant. But then, with the peta people outside the main gate at CamPen, he may be too busy to look for advice on weapons. Geez, they want Marines to stop being called Leathernecks!! LOL!! Semper Fi, Mac!!

Reloadron
July 23, 2012, 08:06 PM
People who made the deal possible will find "shoeboxes full of cash" under their desks?
How about you stop with the BS unless you have something to toss on the table. USMC '69 to '79 with time in Nam using the .45 you seem to feel is a bad investment. So when were you in the service and what military weapons were you trained on? All is see is BS sans a knowledge of much. The regular Marines in the field who carry a pistol will have the M9 and only their SOG groups will carry the .45. Given a choice, personally I'll take the 1911 over the M9 anytime.

Spare me the bribe conspiracy unless you have something to back it up. Guessing you sure don't.

People who made the deal possible will find "shoeboxes full of cash" under their desks?

These are Marines, they don't keep cash under their desk, only secretaries or girlfriends. :)

Ron

bluethunder1962
July 23, 2012, 09:05 PM
Is there a site you can go to to buy surplus guns from the military? Seem like now would be a good time to get one.

power5
July 23, 2012, 10:01 PM
First guy has a smoke in his left hand holding the map. He is so cool he does not need trigger safety.

I laugh every time I hear someone say a 1911 or any all metal gun is better than a plastic gun because it has heft if you need to smack someone on the nose. Let your buddy hit you on the nose ever so lightly with his glock and try to tell him it wasn't hefty enough.

Coop45
July 23, 2012, 10:55 PM
LOL!! Marine gear is worn out before it's pulled from service.

clem
July 23, 2012, 10:58 PM
I heard that these puppies cost $5K plus, each!

Skylerbone
July 23, 2012, 11:04 PM
Bullet drop difference between a 9mm 115 gr. Win. Silvertip and .45 ACP 185 gr. Silvertip is 1.4" @ 50 yds. I'll let you guess which has more energy at that distance and at practical distances like 15 yds. where the line of sight drop differential is .1"

Clearly some respondents are children of the plastic era, before which nothing worked...and history is little more than a fairy tale.

cuba
July 24, 2012, 04:15 PM
I guess that from a proven record as that set by heroes like Alvin York, killing six German soldier in CQC with his 45 Colt Automatic 1911, its no wonder that the Marines have chosen the tried and true 45 acp 1911.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

barneyrw
July 24, 2012, 06:04 PM
<<"That first guy on the other hand... Needs a good smack on the head.">>

That pic is WWII, before all the safety stuff. He's the reason you are reading this in English and not German or Japanese, have a little respect. Besides, you try smacking him, and you'll be picking yourself up off the ground. There are different rules in combat. He's in a war, not at a shooting range. In Vietnam, if I had my 45 pulled, my finger was on the trigger and the safety was off. Actually, I routinely carried it on half cock with the safety off, just didn't like the looks of cocked and locked.

Lt.Dan
July 24, 2012, 09:13 PM
We are forgetting only MARSOC is getting these, not the entire Marine Corps. Recon has been carrying 1911s forever so it's a no brainer their "next of kin" gets them too. The Beretta M9s we had were garbage and I can tell you first hand the effectiveness of a 9mm ball round. And as lucky as I was I got to spend quite a bit of time around them while in the rear (8531 as a BMOS). I have two of my closest friends in MARSOC and while they haven't received them yet they are excited to get them.

Semper Fi.
0311/0331 02-06. Kill.

2zulu1
July 25, 2012, 05:32 PM
That's obviously from someone who has never seen real combat.
I was a Marine Corps platoon commander then company commander in Vietnam in 1968 and 1969. The 45 was my issue weapon and usually that and my K-Bar were the only weapons I carried. The 45 saved my life on several occasions and I personally saw an NVA assault stoped by one Marine with a 45.
Welcome home and thank you for your service!

barneyrw
July 25, 2012, 06:37 PM
Thanks, but that's ancient history. It's the Iraq and Afghanistan veterans that deserve the credit now.

jogar80
July 25, 2012, 06:40 PM
All veterans should be respected and given the credit they deserve, ancient or not.

Coal Dragger
July 26, 2012, 01:03 AM
I didn't enlist in Uncle Sam's Misguided Children and go play in the sandbox to get recognition from people. In fact it makes me kind of uncomfortable and I don't tell most people I know. It's none of their business anyway, and I get sick of answering questions.

tarosean
July 26, 2012, 01:14 AM
Who would of thought this would've brought so many sour grapes to the table.
SMH....

clem
July 26, 2012, 01:15 AM
"Thanks, but that's ancient history. It's the Iraq and Afghanistan veterans that deserve the credit now. "
barneyrw


And just what do you mean about this comment?

barneyrw
July 26, 2012, 11:48 PM
So they still use that phrase. (-:

barneyrw
July 26, 2012, 11:52 PM
Nothing much, just saying the new vets deserve the praise now. Us older guys handed off the baton long ago.

burk
July 27, 2012, 12:12 AM
^ Bingo! This is not some new contract introdcing a new pistol. This is a contract to replace the Kimbers they they bought, that didn't hold up the way they were told it would. When they went with the Kimbers origainally, the also bought several thousand magazines, and about 6 million rounds of .45ACP. It only makes sense that they would get another and better platform when they moved away from the Kimbers.

Except this is a different unit than CENTCOM that got the Kimbers. So I'm not sure your information is correct. In other words this is in additional to the DET-1 Kimbers that went to CENTCOM not a replacement.

cuba
July 30, 2012, 12:32 AM
Wonder why the new pistols are being fitted with a dual recoil spring.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

paintballdude902
July 30, 2012, 01:59 AM
some guys need to remember this is MARSOC

im in AFSOC and we use m9's.... i have yet to find one that isnt close to being worn out. if i was a ground pounder in a high speed low drag unit you an bet your bottom dollar id want a newer gun.

think about 30 years of pistol qual after qual with shoddy cleaning then them being taken to the desert with all the sand being blown into it.


there was talk of us getting .45 sigs but budget cuts kicked in and we needed new ipads.....

RX-178
July 31, 2012, 06:24 AM
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the differences between typical infantry combat, and the kind of combat that people in an organization like MARSOC are likely to see.

In infantry combat, your goal (as a unit, not an individual) is to indentify a 'kill box' where the majority or entirety of the bad guys are, and methodically work over that box with small arms fire to (theoretically) maximize the probability of inflicting enemy casualties. That's why Marines still train to shoot out to 500 meters, since even though the 5.56 round is a mediocre performer at that distance, it's still effective in terms of infantry combat.

Well, it's pretty obvious after thinking about that a few moments, that a pistol in this environment is next to useless, so there's no real point in using a caliber other than NATO standard. Also, it's not like our infantry officer (likely the only guy WITH a pistol) is going to decide to close in on the bad guys on his own and take them out face-to-face with his sidearm. If he HAS to use his pistol, he's not really going to be using it in any different a manner than he would be his rifle, which makes high capacity at least somewhat relevant.

MARSOC on the other hand... The kind of fight they're likely to get into is much more similar to what any of us might train for on a defensive carbine course, or even a 3-gun stage that involves transitions. Actually identifying individual targets, and taking them out, and using the sidearm to stay in the fight if the carbine jams, or the magazine is expended. There's no reason not to absolutely LOVE the 1911 in this kind of environment.

barneyrw
August 1, 2012, 12:42 AM
<<"infantry officer (likely the only guy WITH a pistol)">>
Not exactly true. In a Marine Corps rifle platoon, the platoon sergeant also carries a pistol. Any attached crew served weapons, such as machine guns & mortars will have some personnel carrying a pistol and not a rifle. Pistols are used in combat more than you think. My experience anyway.

Ash
August 1, 2012, 07:40 AM
In that role, they serve as self-defense. In any case, if the Marines want them, I have no problem with them buying the. It's not like the Marine Corps has traditionally been awash with funds or equipment. I think they know how to spend their money.

Kleanbore
August 1, 2012, 09:41 AM
In a Marine Corps rifle platoon, the platoon sergeant also carries a pistol. Any attached crew served weapons, such as machine guns & mortars will have some personnel carrying a pistol and not a rifle. Pistols are used in combat more than you think. My experience anyway.A new policy (http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/06/marine_maradmin37807_070625/) was put in place some time ago ago.

PISTOLS IN THE PAST WERE ASSIGNED TO ALL MARINE OFFICERS,

SNCOS, AND NAVY BILLETS. THE NEW ASSIGNMENT POLICY ASSIGNS PISTOLS

TO MARINE COLONELS AND ABOVE, NAVY OFFICERS, AND NAVY

E6 AND ABOVE ONLY.

THE M4 CARBINE WAS PREVIOUSLY ASSIGNED ONLY TO SPECIFIC UNITS.

THE NEW ASSIGNMENT POLICY ASSIGNS THE CARBINE TO MARINE LT THROUGH

LTCOL, WO/CWO, SNCOS, NAVY E5 AND BELOW, AND LIMITED EQUIPMENT

VEHICLE OPERATORS.

THE M9 PISTOL QUANTITIES HAVE BEEN REDUCED SIGNIFICANTLY WITHIN

THE OPERATING FORCES.

NG VI
August 1, 2012, 09:57 AM
Kleanbore, it's almost as if they feel the M4 is a better defense weapon, or even that it's less likely to make the person in a leadership position stand out to an observer.

barneyrw
August 1, 2012, 07:19 PM
Interesting update, thanks.

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