300blk vs. 5.56


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jlewis406
July 21, 2012, 11:03 PM
I have been looking at the new Daniels Defense M4V5 in 300 Blackout. I have zero experience with the 300blk. I am looking for solid facts here. Not internet hearsay and rumors. Everyone knows the 300blk hits like a truck at 100 yards.

How does the 300blk compare to the 5.56 at ranges of 300 to 500 yards?

How much bullet drop can I expect to see at 1,2,3,4 and 500 yards compared the the M855 and XM193 out of a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel?

I am really torn between the two. I have show 5.56 for a long time, but looking for something new that I don't need to spend a ton of money to get into as far as the gun, mags, etc. I rarely shoot past 500 yards and when I do I'm not the best shot.

Does anyone know of any drawbacks that aren't commonly known about the 300blk?

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tahunua001
July 21, 2012, 11:10 PM
300 blk is great at 100 yards but past that it is prone to the same problems as the 7.62x39 and 30-30. it is just too much bullet and too little charge= huge loss of velocity over range, lots of bullet drop and lots of wind drift. the 300 blk is great for ARs because the only thing that needs to be changed is the barrels and you can keep the BCG and magazines the same. that is the major drawback of the x39 because in an ar platform the many changes that have to be made create several points of failure and ruins the reliability of the platform. with the advantage of all moving parts being the same as the original, proven design the 300 BLK just makes more sense but ballistically there is little difference between the two.

303tom
July 21, 2012, 11:18 PM
If you are shooting out to 300 yards with a .300 AAC you are pushing it............

cfullgraf
July 21, 2012, 11:34 PM
With a 16" barrel, the 300 BLK will get about 2200 fps when using 125 grain bullets. You can do the math.

In my opinion, the 300 BLK is a dandy home, self defense rifle/cartridge combination which is one of the reasons I bought mine.

500 to 600 yards will be stretching it for 300 BLK. 223 Remington would be a better choice for longer ranges.

Texan Scott
July 21, 2012, 11:47 PM
A 125-gr blk round at 2200 fps is ballistically inferior to a .30-30; a 220-gr blk round at 1060 is ballistically inferior to a .45 carbine. Of course, the 300blk gives it all to you in a 30-round semi-auto package, with the possibility of adding a sound suppressor.
this makes it, imho, an EXCELLENT 'tactical' weapon... but a slightly underpowered, or at least overpriced, deer & pig shooter. That said, if it's what you want, and you have the money, this is still AMERICA, probably will be for a little while longer yet.... do what makes you happy. I DO know guys who've had successful guided hog hunts with it, at night, with supressors and night vision and goodness knows what else. It can be done, they had fun, they could've bought five hundred pounds of pork chops for less than they spent, but I don't think that was their point. :)

RPRNY
July 22, 2012, 12:05 AM
As someone above pointed out, thinking of the 300blk in 7.62x39 or 30-30 terms ballistically is a good comparison. Like Hornady's Leverevolution polymer tipped bullets and optimised powder have made the 30-30 a viable 200 yard round, 300blk gives you the ability with relatively minor alterations to give you 223/5.56 AR good 30 Cal performance out to, perhaps, 250 yards (the theory being that well set up AR platform will be more accurate at slightly longer distance than a levergun. At least out to 200 yards, the 30 Cal bullet performance "should " be better albeit not quite as flat, than 5.56/223. After that, trajectory dt3rioration will begin to coincide with climatic action on the smaller caliber round.

I don't think 300blk VS 223 is the way to look at this. I think what 300blk does is allow, again credit to posts above, you to diversify your AR platform in a potent short to midbrange way with less investment than other options. It compliments the "standard " AR platform rather than competed with it IMHO.

oldpapps
July 22, 2012, 03:04 AM
I fully agree with ' RPRNY '.

The .223/5.56 fills its place and the .300 BlackOut doesn't infringe on that place but slips into a slot for larger diameter and heaver bullets. Doesn't have the velocity/range/energy of the .308/7.62 or 30.06 (or others in that spectrum) but then the .300 BlackOut wasn't intended to.

I'll keep my .223/5.56s and my .300 BlackOut.... For differing uses.

briansmithwins
July 22, 2012, 03:12 AM
I basically think of .300 Blackout as being a rifle round that's great in a suppressed weapon but has the effective range of a 12 gauge firing slugs.

BSW

mavracer
July 22, 2012, 08:05 AM
Just built me a 300 and I decided to put a Nikon P-223 3X on it. They have a bullet drop compensator app on their website. www.nikonhunting.com it's called spot on. Open it up and play with the different 300 blk loads vs 5.56. IMHO it doesn't give up much usable yardage. I'm not getting rid of my 5.56 either though.

mastiffhound
July 22, 2012, 08:28 AM
The one major drawback for me is price. In every way possible. The price of the upper is around the same price or lower as a Marlin 336 in .30-30 or a AKM copy. Then the price of ammunition is around $11(the cheapest I"ve ever seen) a box of 20, higher than 5.56/.223 or 7.62x39. Only the .30-30 is more expensive, ammo wise that is. If you want to suppress it then yeah it is OK, but for a upper I can't justify it. It just doesn't have range like a .223/5.56. If you want a harder hitting AR then look at this first. A 77 grain .223 round hits with 1293 foot pounds of force. The 300 AAC 125 grain hits with 1360 foot pounds of force. The 5.56 also has a further reach. 67 foot pounds of force is not enough difference for me to change my mind. Also, 300 AAC is not cheap to plink with. You have more options with .223/5.56 as far as cost, bullet weight, range, and power are concerned. So unless you are suppressing it then I would stay with .223/5.56.

You could buy a whole lot 77 grain .223/5.56 ammo for the price you would pay for that upper. 1360 is not hitting that hard, .30-30 (110 to 170 gr) hits between 1250 and 1900. 7.62x39 (123 to 154 gr) hits between 1500 and 1800. Both beat the 300 AAC by 440 and 340, about the power of a 9x19 parabellum round. Now that is a difference.

68wj
July 22, 2012, 08:38 AM
What are you shooting out to 500 yards? For larger game the AR15 cartridges lack expansion velocity or energy at those ranges, but paper and some varmints are doable. Have you looked at DD's 6.8 spc option for more power and flatter trajectory?

Klondike
July 22, 2012, 08:50 AM
I own both and just think of them as different guns and have different optics / uses

24" .223 with a 3x9 scope is the most accurate rifle I own (AR or not). Great range gun and varmit gun. Gun is reasonably heavy and much more suited to bench / blind shooting.

16" 300 Blackout with a red dot is a nice brush gun for killing deer at 50-75 yards or varmint hunting. Gun is lighter, easier to handle and obviously with the optic / shooting conditions gets on target faster. I have no interest in a suppressor or subsonic. I look at it as a bigger bullet / more punch for short range stopping power

68wj
July 22, 2012, 09:08 AM
If you want a harder hitting AR then look at this first. A 77 grain .223 round hits with 1293 foot pounds of force. The 300 AAC 125 grain hits with 1360 foot pounds of force. The 5.56 also has a further reach..Only at the muzzle, it is just over 1000 ftlb at 100 yards and drops below just after. Same for the 300 though.

scramasax
July 22, 2012, 10:33 AM
I look at my 300bo as an upgraded 30 carbine. It's not what most people think but works for me. Great for urban and sub-urban use. As for hunting the average distance in TN I was told is around 75yds. At my farm it's more like 35. A good compromise caliber. If I feel the need for more range and power I'll grab the .308 or .338.

We have an embarrassment of choices today in the AR platform. Both in configuration and caliber. It is hard to make a solid choice for a walkabout rifle.

Cheers,

ts

flyskater
July 22, 2012, 11:21 AM
300 blackout is a very versatile cartridge. You can use 110gr to over 230gr bullet. (not many cartridges can do that) It has more energy than a 223 at any distance. (see chart below) It is also a reloader's dream. I cast my own bullet for subsonic rounds and 500 rounds of loaded ammo cost me $25. It wasn't designed to be used past 300 yards. That's why i have a 6.8 spc and 308 to fill that spot. I love my 300 blackout over my 5.56 and 6.8 combined.
Also in a short barrel, the 300 blackout stomps over the 5.56 as it doesn't loose too much velocity.
Upper is very affordable. You can get a decent upper for 300 to 400 dollars

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd136/jblomenberg16/300BLKComparison_2.png

oldpapps
July 22, 2012, 11:33 AM
OK, it is not 2 in the morning, so lets answer each question in order.

"jlewis406

300blk vs. 5.56
Not a fair comparisons, two different loads in the same platform.

How does the 300blk compare to the 5.56 at ranges of 300 to 500 yards?
I will list the .223/5.56 with 55gr and 62gr bullets and the .300 BlackOut with 110gr and 150gr bullets. Yes the .223 runs heaver bullets well and the .300 also run 125s and big 220s as subsonic, but these are what I shoot, so live with it. These are what I load and the velocities at 10 feet that I get with each.

Velocity in FPS/Energy's in FtLb at each range:
.223 / 55gr
10ft - 3000/1098
100Y - 2640/851
200Y - 2303/648
300Y - 1983/480
400Y - 1692/349
500Y - 1436/252
.223 / 62gr
10ft - 2842/1110
100Y - 2408/797
200Y - 2011/557
300Y - 1659/378
400Y - 1362/255
500Y - 1142/179
.300 / 110gr
10ft - 2300/1291
100Y - 1908/889
200Y - 1582/611
300Y - 1312/420
400Y - 1123/308
500Y - 1004/246
.300 /150gr
10ft - 1988/1316
100Y - 1770/1043
200Y - 1570/821
300Y - 1393/646
400Y - 1243/514
500Y - 1126/422

I hate trying to put tables in 8(


How much bullet drop can I expect to see at 1,2,3,4 and 500 yards compared the the M855 and XM193 out of a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel?
This is very subjective. What range is the weapon "0"ed to, height of sighing system above the center line of the bore?

I am really torn between the two. I have show 5.56 for a long time, but looking for something new that I don't need to spend a ton of money to get into as far as the gun, mags, etc. I rarely shoot past 500 yards and when I do I'm not the best shot.
Building an upper in .300 BlackOut is the same as the cost for a comparable upper in .223 with a carbine buffer. Same mags and cut down .223 brass. If shooting paper targets or the like, shoot and have fun. If shooting game, stay in your comfort zone.

Does anyone know of any drawbacks that aren't commonly known about the 300blk?
I find more going for the .300 BlackOut than against it. With that in mind, I think a .223/5.56 is a much better option for:
First AR platform weapon.
If only using factory/surplus ammunition.
Not hunting medium and larger game.
Going the other way. The .300 (or 6.8 or 6.5) make a very good second or third weapon 'IF' you role your own and want to hunt larger game. And to be fair, the 6.8 or 6.5 are better for longer ranges. But then, they do cost more with the non-standard brass and magazines. How about one of each?


Looks like 'flyskater' is faster than me. His tables look better too.

jlewis406
July 22, 2012, 01:23 PM
Thanks for the help guys. I have thought about going 6.8 but the cost of ammo and having to swap out kit is holding me back. I am looking at making this gun my new lightweight, all purpose (possibly 3 gun), gun. I live in Albuquerque, and everything to 500yds away when it comes to shooting. It's not going to be used for hunting since I have a bolt gun set up for that. I think I might stick with the animal I know for now and do a .300 build. Thanks dooods.

Klondike
July 22, 2012, 03:31 PM
Beyond the stats I do think you get a stronger game wound profile under 100 yards from the 300 blackout with rounds from the 110 gr Black tip to 150 grain soft points even though the energy of a 62-77gr .223 is within the ballpark. On a deer both calibers should through and through under 75 yards but expansion and energy transfer will be better with the 300 blackout.

Energy isn't everything. That being said under 100 yards .223 gets the job done with good shot placement (lot of people neck/head shoot at short range anyway)

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