[Daguerre]

Well guys, I've got a bunch of 1911's, lots of Government-sized models and a couple of Kimber Compacts. And I love these guns dearly. But I'm considering buying a sub-compact pistol in a potent caliber, though probably not a 1911 pattern pistol.

No disrespect to owners of them, but I'm pretty leery of the 3" 1911's.... I know there are examples of them which run beautifully, but they can be so damned finnicky that I think I want a more current DA/SA or all DA design. I am NOT interested in a Kimber Series II, though I love my Compact CDP and Compact Stainless Series 1 pistols. The Springfield Micros & Kimber Ultra II's are not guns I wish to consider.

I like .45 caliber quite a bit, but I am every bit as confident in the stopping power of .40 and somewhat comfortable with the stopping power of 9mm +P. I already own two Browning Hi-Power pistols in .40 and they are absolutely superb guns... so I'm well into the .45 and .40 calibers already. I don't yet own any 9mm, though.

Some of the guns which I feel are excellent choices and which I'm considering for a subcompact are these:

• Kahr MK9 - 9mm, excellent quality, reasonable power, very good reliability, very compact, pretty good trigger, 3" barrel, steel frame, 6+1 and 7+1, 24 oz.

• Kahr MK40 - .40, excellent quality, excellent power, very good reliability, very compact, pretty good trigger, 3" barrel, steel frame, 5+1 and 6+1, 25 oz.

• Glock 36 - .45 ACP very reliable (the most important criterion to me!), fairly compact, excellent power, funky trigger, blocky feel, 3.78" barrel, 6+1 capacity, 22.6 oz.

• S&W CS45 - excellent reliability, excellent power, very compact, not sure about the trigger feel, but owners of this very small .45 TOTALLY love them. 3 1/4" barrel, alloy frame, 6+1 rounds, ambi safety lever, 24 oz., looks like a real winner.

• ParaOrdinance ParaCarry 6.45 LDA - excellent reliability (I think???), excellent power, very compact, supposedly excellent DA trigger. 3" barrel, 6+1 rounds, 30 oz. HEAVY.

• HK USP Compact 45 - excellent reliability, excellent power & capacity, semi-compact, blocky design, reasonable DA/SA trigger. 3.6" barrel, 8+1 rounds, 26 oz. One of the world's best guns.

• SIG 239 .40 - excellent reliability, excellent power & capacity, compact, sleek design, trigger ???. 3.6" barrel, 8+1 rounds, 29.8 oz. Another of the world's best guns.

So there it is... have I missed anything that ranks as highly as this bunch of pistols?

Here are my thoughts:

If the Glock had a better trigger, it would probably be that, even though I think they're ugly and don't like the blockiness. They're reliability and simplicity are great draws. Or maybe I could get used to that trigger.... hmmmm. But this gun isn't much smaller than my Kimber Compact CDP. I think this is a good choice, though.

That S&W CS45 sure looks tempting... I hear it's an awesome little pistol. I'm drawn to it a lot more than the Glock. And it's quite a bit smaller than my smallest 1911, my Kimber Compact CDP. So size and weight and caliber are big plusses. Being from S&W is a big plus to me as well. Could be the one.

I hear the Paras are nice, but I'm not sure they are crying out to me... so far anyway. Perhaps I could be convinced about the 6.45 LDA, I'm not sure.

The HK USP has a top quality reputation, but it's probably not much different in size than my Kimber Compact CDP and I don't really like it's "swat-team" looks or blockiness... too bad, but I'm sure it's a great gun. Might as well just pack the Kimber Compact CDP.

The SIG 239 looks like a great pistol and I'm a believer in the .40 caliber as a defense round, just as much as .45. I like it's looks & design & quality. But this gun is similar in size to my Kimber Compact CDP and it's a fair bit bigger and heavier than the Smith CS45. Again, might as well just pack the Kimber Compact CDP. I'm leaning toward lighter and smaller, and this gun isn't quite that. Great gun though. Hmmmm.

I'll probably wind up with two of these guns. I know I want a Kahr MK9 any way you slice it. That's a done deal in my mind. But I'll still want a .40 or a .45 that is smaller than my Kimber Compact CDP, as well.

I'm interested in hearing others views on what gun would be best suited as the "other". My initial gut feeling is to go with the Smith & Wesson CS45 because it's notably smaller than my Kimber Compact CDP and I know Smith & Wesson products are top notch. None of the other guns are as concealable. If you were in my position, which would you pick, financial considerations aside...?

[Ninj500]

Glock 33 .(357 SIG), a truly potent caliber in a proven compact platform.

[Kahr carrier]

I like the Kahrs Mk40 they are well built and reliable.:)

[hondo68]

Don't overlook the HK USP Compact .357 SIG. SA/DA, has a combo (real)safety/decock lever. Can be carried cocked and locked, or decocked - locked or not. That blocky look grows on ya, trust me on this one.
:D

The Kahr MK 9 with +P ammo is almost as potent and about half the size. Heck, I like em both. Do what I did, and get one of each.

[Quartus]

I'll probably wind up with two of these guns.

Heck, I like em both. Do what I did, and get one of each.



Alright, gentlemen, say it with me:


Hi, my name is _______, and I'm a gunaholic."



:D



Oh, choices, choices. .40 or .357? I'm still working on this same question myself....

[Boats]

I'd give the Beretta Mimi-Cougar in .45 ACP the once over to be sure. I like the concept of having a chopped down CCW pistol that has factory grip extenders available to make it a "full-size."

[10-Ring]

Of the options you have listed, my recommendation would go w/ either the USPc 45 or the GLock 36.

[lostdog]

Have you thought of a Glock 27? 9+1 rnds of .40 and a glock.
Considering that a "sub-compact" will be more likely to see pocket use and/or ankle use and mabey exposed to lint, dirt, ect.. then you may want to go with a glock or a revolver...i don't want a cocked and locked .45 riding in Thunder wear!!! :eek:

[Ebbtide]

I just had the chance to help a friend break in his Tauras PT145. Aside from the frame problems I've read about in the past (heard they fixed the problem) the gun ran flawlessly, out of the box, for the 150 rds we put thru it.

I have allways considered the pt145 to be a "cheap gun" - so to speak, and never consider it a contender for my uses. Now I might look into it further.

Yor other choices are all godd guns IMO. Which ever feels best in your hand should be the winner.

Hope you find this of some help.

ehenz

[Charles S]

Daguerre;

I had a similar thought line a while back. While I am sure that there are 1911 patern sub-compacts that are very reliable, the examples I owned were less than exemplary.

I like you do not like Glock triggers or Glock ergonomics. Glocks are great guns they are just not great guns for me.

I had some really great prior experience with S&W 45 acps so I bought a Chief Special in 45 acp. My gun is very reliable it carries easily in a Blade Tech IWB holster. I have night sights on the gun and I really like the gun as a carry gun. I have shot about 1000 rounds through this gun, recoil in suprisingly manageable for a small gun.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=91487

I recently ran accross a great deal on a Kahr K9. I have fallen in love with this gun also. I have shot a concealed carry course, a night combat course and a defensive pistol course with this gun. It is utterly reliable, easy to carry nice and slim, and a very capable gun. I was shooting the smallest gun in each of the above mentioned courses and I managed to do very well in the classes.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=89531


I don't think you will go wrong with either of those choices, but you have already narrowed your search down to a great selection.

Good luck,

Charles

[trapshooter]

Sig P245. I don't consider it a sub-compact, but it's in the same size range as many of your choices.

[CWL]

Kahr and Glock would be good to fill your reqs.

Sig & HK are great though bigger.

Don't understand why you would consider Para LDA if you are wary of other Officer's size .45s.

[hogan]

The MK series Kahrs are really nice! I have an MK40 that I have carried for nearly a year now and am very pleased with it. My standard trigger is hard for me to find fault with, but if you don't like the standard trigger, get the Elite trigger. Additionally I'd recommend a FIST IWB holster. With that holster and the slim MK40, I can carry at about 4 o'clock even with some of my tighter pants and still hardly notice it. I ordered the holster with an "extreme" forward cant. It really helps your draw with the short grip on the MK40 to have it stick up some from the beltline.

[dude]

IMI Baby Eagle compact 9 or .40.....they are both the same size

[Zander]

Go with the SIG P239/.40 and put a factory .357SIG barrel in it when you get comfortable shooting it [that won't take long].

My bet is that you'll prefer the latter caliber; I do...and it's every bit as potent as the mid-weight .40Auto loads.

[Safety First]

You may want to consider the 9mm.. it weighs 25.2 oz and has a 8 shot mag..the print-out I have of the .40 says it has 7 shot mag. So I don't know if the lighter weight and 8 shot mag would work,but maybe it's the compromise for a carry gun..It was my choice and I have been really happy with it..Oh yeah,by the way,I'm not even an authority on guns..just an idea I thought you might want...

[Sean Smith]

I'd tend to go with the 9x19mm Kahr for such a little gun. Yeah, you can get more power from .40, but not so much that it is worth the trade-offs IMHO. The Kahrs I've shot were accurate, reliable and had good DA triggers.

I'd avoid the micro 1911s too. Not my cup of tea. The Kimber Compact (4" bull barrel, short grip, steel or alloy frame) is as small as I'd be inclined to go. Even there, .38 Super or 9x23 would be smarter calibers than .45 ACP.

Of course, you could convert a .40 S&W version to 10mm for pure sawed-off evil. I'm sure touching off a load of 12.0gr 800-X from a 4" barrel would be delightful.

:evil:

[Daguerre]

Lots of good comments here.

Someday I will own a Glock for sure, but the smallest Glock is still about the same size as my Kimber Compact CDP and Kimber Compact Stainless. And I don't need another pistol that size just yet.

For this application I need a little smaller than Glock can offer. So it sounds like the Kahr is really the way to go. Probably an MK9 or MK40. I'm still not sure that the PM9 is quite ready for prime time, although I know some folks have ones that run just fine. I really would like to try an PM9... I guess if it doesn't run right I can always send it back to Kahr or sell it and get an MK40 or MK9. If I get a PM9 that runs flawlessly, VOILA... a home run! That's where I'm leaning anyway for a micro auto pistol with good power.

Besides a Glock, I'd also like to have a SIG 239 in .40 caliber. From owning two incredible Browning Hi-Powers in .40 cal., I really like that caliber, it's quite potent and offers good capacity. I think the SIG 239 would be a nice step down in size from the Hi-Powers, but still retaining the punch of .40 cal. And I hear nothing but rave reviews for the 239.

And I wouldn't be surprised if someday I also get an HK USPCompact... I like the ability to carry cocked and locked and I understand they're great pistols.... but again, same size as my Kimber Compacts.

[Zundfolge]

I carry an MK40 Elite98 and its about perfect, there's only one gun I'd consider giving it up for and thats the STI LS40, which while its a "micro 1911" style gun, I believe they have solved many of the problems most have with micro 1911s (mainly by chamabering it in either 9mm or .40S&W).

Since you have a bunch of 1911s it might be worth it to check out the STI for a carry gun since you're already used to the feel and controls of a 1911.

http://www.stiguns.com/guns/ls/ls.html

[HadEmAll]

I think the full-sized K40 is a perfect blend of power, concealability, and shootability.

[Daguerre]

Zundfolge... why would you want to give up the MK40 for the STI? Seems the STI must be bigger (about the size of a Kimber Compact or Colt Officers). Anything not to like about the MK40? I agree that with it's 1911 design, the LS40 looks very appealing, but doesn't offer much more in terms of size-efficiency than my Kimber Compacts do, except perhaps by being ever so slightly slimmer. My inclination for a pocket pistol would be toward the MK40 or MK9.... unless I could find a PM9 which runs flawlessly...

[Diesle]

CZ 75 Compact. Lots of gun for a small framer, little price.


Diesle

[Kahr carrier]

Kahr.:)

[redneck2]

get a real caliber and get a Glock 29. Get the trigger lightened to 3 1/2# and you're good-to-go.

There was a thread on GlockTalk about a guy that shot clean thru a 300# hog with a G20...about the same performance as a 41 Mag. Interesting thing is that my G20 has very manageable recoil.

(Just thought I'd throw all this in to stir the pot)

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Heritage Stealth C-4200 Shadow.

[Zundfolge]

Daguerre, I've fondled the LS40 and its only slightly larger then my MK40.

The grip is only about 1/2" longer and its actually thinner then the MK.

The main reason I'd consider the trade is that the STI will be better to shoot (longer sight radius, single action trigger and longer grip) however not quite as nice to carry.

However, I did just order a Talon Plus from Lou Alessi (which should be here any day now). I've also got a set of Pearce grip extensions which I don't like because they cause the pistol to print real bad in the belly band. If the grip extensions work better with the new holster (since the cant is greater) then I'll never get rid of the MK :)

What I'd really like to do is have one of everything :D

[Daguerre]

One of everything would be nice, but few of us can afford that. I do figure that I'll have one of quite a few anyway. I expect I'll have an MK9 or MK40, possibly an PM9, also a SIG 239 in .40, a Glock 36, HK USPCompact in .45, to add to my collection of 1911's, Mustang, S&W wheelies, Browning Hi-Powers, and Cowboy guns. :rolleyes:

[Mastrogiacomo]

Personally, I don't care for the Glock or S&W. Given what you've mentioned, it'd be either a Sig or H&K. If I may, I'd also recommend a .45 or 9mm as the ammo is less expensive, particularly if you plan to practice a lot. The recoil on the 9 and 45 tends to be more mild as well. Although you didn't mention this I'd also suggest a Beretta. I have a Compact type M in a 9mm and it's a great gun - flawless, easy to conceal, etc. You can check out their other models at www.berettausa.com

Best of luck in your search.:D

[Daguerre]

Mastro... yes, I'd love to have the SIG 239 and the HK USPCompact, they are great guns. But my immediate interest is limited to SMALLER pistols as I just don't NEED any more of that size, due to already owning a Kimber Compact CDP and a Compact Stainless, which I believe are comparable size to the USPCompact and the 239.

The Beretta 9000S looks like it might fit the bill well. Does anyone know much about them or have any direct experience with them?

I have a S&W 642 Airweight .38 which makes a superb pocket revolver when loaded with Speer 124gr. Gold Dot +P... it can even be fired while still inside a coat pocket, if necessary. But my quest is still for a truly sub-compact semi-auto in 9mm or greater. Seems like I keep coming back to the Kahr MK40 and MK9 as the top choices in this very small, but still potent category. The PM9 is very appealing as well. I think at this point my decision is among those three Kahrs. And later, I would sure like to add a 239 in.40 and a USPCompact in .45, just for kicks 'n' giggles. :p

[Zundfolge]

I still think the MK40 is the ultimate in the small but powerful autoloader category.