CZ-75s and WWB 9mm value pack


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Tired_and_hungry
July 24, 2012, 06:17 AM
Dear All,

I previously posted about how I was having problems with my made in 1995 CZ-75 (No B) that had been bought un-used from a dealers armoury in NIB condition. In the first 1200 rounds, all of which was WWB, it gave me 13 FTEs and even after I swapped out the recoil spring for an improved one and changed the extractor and extractor spring for factory fresh spares from CZ, it still gives me FTEs and stovepipes! Today, I shot 400 rounds of WWB 9mm and I experienced 10 FTEs even after I had changed recoil and extractor springs before shooting and has swapped out the recoil spring for a new one at the end of the last range session! :fire:

Do any of you guys who own cz-75s have problems with 9mm WWB especially the 100 round value packs? If you do then do other brands of 9mm provide better reliability?

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SwampWolf
July 24, 2012, 06:39 AM
Do any of you guys who own cz-75s have problems with 9mm WWB especially the 100 round value packs?

Other than reloads, WWB ammunition from the 100 round value pack (via WalMart) is about all I use in my (newer) CZ-85B. No problems with the stuff yet after just under a thousand rounds expended. Have you tried different magazines?

Tired_and_hungry
July 24, 2012, 07:43 AM
To Swampwolf:

Yes, I have swapped out magazines before. The problem still persists.

Dear Mods:

Please send this thread to the autoloader forum. I placed it in "general handguns" by mistake.

NG VI
July 24, 2012, 09:34 AM
Have you replaced magazine springs?

If you hadn't already fired 1600 rounds from it I might guess that it could want some hotter ammunition to break in with, but the CZs I've had have never been ammo sensitive, so I guess that isn't all that likely anyway.

MK11
July 24, 2012, 09:40 AM
Try different ammo before you do anything else with the gun. The Winchester value packs are notorious for being underpowered and often poor quality. It's been a while since I've had some problems with it, but several years ago a run of the value packs gave my Sig P239 fits, and that thing would feed rocks if you could squeeze them into the magazine.

I'm guessing it's ammo, not gun (and I'm not part of the CZ fanclub)

wildehond
July 24, 2012, 10:22 AM
I had a CZ Pre B model years ago. Was my firsrt handgun. It fed anything I put throught it form my lame reloads to full factory +P ammo.
I remember the guns were not finished that well those days, but all the ones I encountered where VERY reliable.

I see you said you have already replaced the extractor. All I can think of now is a rough chamber or that there is an issue vir the ejector. See if you can find another CZ75 or CZ75B and compare the ejectors.

Fire a few rounds and then eject the round in the chamber by hand and see if you can see any marks on the case or where the extractor grabs the case.

Still wierd to me.

TonyT
July 24, 2012, 10:24 AM
If changing ammo does not work themn I would suspect it is the shooters grip that requires attention. I have never seen a CZ-75 that does not function reliably. My CZ-75 will shoot ammo that kit even a bit oversized for my other 9omm's.

Vonderek
July 24, 2012, 10:28 AM
When you changed to a new recoil spring are you using the standard 14 lb spring?

Gunnerboy
July 24, 2012, 10:37 AM
Hmm my guess is the crappy cheap winchester garbage your shooting thru your gun.

ClickClickD'oh
July 24, 2012, 10:42 AM
Try to find some Sellier & Bellot 124gr or Speer Lawman 124gr. That's all I shoot out of my CZs for practice ammo and none of them every hiccup.

Tired_and_hungry
July 24, 2012, 10:44 AM
To Vonderek:

the factory recoil spring was swapped out for a heavier weight 15# wilson combat spring and initially, that seemed to improve reliability, even giving me a trouble free 150 shot string at one point but today, my pistol was choking and gagging even with the new recoil spring, extractor and extractor spring.

1st 100 rounds = 4 FTEs
2nd 100 rounds = 2 FTEs
3rd 100 rounds = 1 FTE and 1 stovepipe
4th 100 rounds = 1 FTE and 1 stovepipe

BCRider
July 24, 2012, 02:50 PM
If the WWB ammo is a little on the weak side then by going UP to a 15lb spring you went the wrong way.

First off I'd suggest you strip off the top end and chamber check both the ammo and some spent brass from YOUR gun in the chamber. Fresh rounds should literally slip in and fall out as you let them slide in on a 45 degree tilt. If they don't then something is sticky. Similarly spent brass from your gun should easily push into the chamber with at most a light finger push and come out with a light rap of the hand holding the barrel against the table or other hand to "eject" the brass. If you need to use a fingernail to pull it out or if you felt it get sticky on the way in then your gun MAY have a tight chamber which may be causing the extractor to not be able to pull it out.

As for setting the recoil spring to match the ammo it's pretty easy to use visual observation. Shoot the gun downrange for a few shots and watch how the ejected brass flies out. You're looking for about a 2 foot or bigger arc out to the side. If it's dribbling out over the back of your hand with less than a 2 foot arc the recoil spring rate is too heavy. Go for something lighter.

My own CZ's chuck the brass out about 4 feet before they are back to the level of the gun and land about 6 to 7 feet away from me. This MAY be a little far. But the guns are 99.9999% reliable. In fact other thay trying to shoot some of the cheap MFS ammo recently I don't recall when I last had an FTE. And I've shot some commercial reloads, some Remington 124, some Blazer Brass 124 and some Blazer Alumiunium 115 all within the last couple of months.

More than likely the WWB ammo is too weak for the recoil spring you're using. I suggested the chamber check just to see if the ammo is sticky. But more than likely you simply went the wrong way by going up to a 15 lb spring from the factory 14 lb spring. If the guys are right and the WWB ammo is lower in power than normal then you should be going down to a 12 or 13 lb recoil spring.

Walt Sherrill
July 24, 2012, 07:08 PM
Try a Wolff extra-strength extractor spring.

The original extractor springs are OK, but with dirty ammo (and WWB is a bit dirty), gunk can build up behind (under) the extractor and it can't close as tightly as it ought to close. The extra-strength extractor spring will give the extractor a little extra gripping power.

You can also use a spray can of brake cleaner to clean out the extractor channel periodically. That might solve the problem. (Be sure to remove the grips before you do, as some solvents will EAT the plastic grips.)

Furncliff
July 24, 2012, 07:33 PM
O.P. if you get to that point...the CZUSA gunsmiths in Kansas City are great to work with. Don't email, give them a call.

Contact info:
http://www.cz-usa.com/contact-us/

BCRider
July 24, 2012, 07:34 PM
.....You can also use a spray can of brake cleaner to clean out the extractor channel periodically. That might solve the problem. (Be sure to remove the grips before you do, as some solvents will EAT the plastic grips.)

That's what I thought. I was hosing out or otherwise blowing out the extractor area pretty consistently. Then one day recently I actually removed it. It was like the La Brea tar pits inside the spring recess!!!!! Clearly I'd been delaying the obvious at best. I'll be removing the pin, extractor and spring for a proper cleaning more frequently. Likey every 3000 to 5000 or so from here on in since it took me something like 10000 to 12000 rounds to get it this dirty. I'll still spray it out with various solvents in the meantime to delay the need for it. But be warned that the goop does build in there despite any sprays used to clean it out.

Trebor
July 24, 2012, 10:45 PM
I have a 1996 CZ-75B that also doesn't like WWB.

It runs fine with pretty much any other ammo, but I get failures to extract with WWB. I think it has something to with inconsisent QC on the rim size of the ammo, but that is just speculation.

My fix is to shoot different ammo through that pistol.

chris in va
July 25, 2012, 12:02 AM
I had numerous FTE with my 2003 75bd. Long story short, MecGar mags and taper crimping everything cured the issue. Wolff extra power springs aren't as strong as MecGar mags.

1SOW
July 25, 2012, 01:57 AM
Over 50K rds on a comp. 75B: Never had a failure to extract, "EXCEPT" for aluminum-cased Blazer 9mm years ago during the ammo shortages. An X-tra power extractor spring ran one full box smoothly. Never shot them again.

Before I reloaded, WWB (BOX OF 50 with the styrofoam liner) was faultless in the gun. I still believe the WWB of "50" is great ammo. The WIN cases are my preferred brass for reloading.

Scrounging brass at the range, I've found many of the WWB of "loose" 100 rds are now using "wcc" brass. This is also excellent brass , but requires chamferring.

Yelovitz_503
July 25, 2012, 03:25 AM
sorry for the double post, my internet was going weird when I tried this last night. Admins feel free to delete this post, my actual response is below.

Tired_and_hungry
July 25, 2012, 10:25 AM
To all the CZ-75 users who's pieces have choked repeatedly on WWB, what other ammo other than Speer Lawman or Sellier and Bellot do you recommend which CZ 75s seem to like? I've seen PMC mentioned here. Is 9mm PMC ammo a sure fire cure for the WWB curse?? Do federal 9mm hi-shoks feed well in CZ-75s?

Also....to everyone:
Is there any truth to the rumour that WWB 9mm is actually made in the Czech Republic by Sellier & Bellot?

Walt Sherrill
July 25, 2012, 11:16 AM
Is there any truth to the rumour that WWB 9mm is actually made in the Czech Republic by Sellier & Bellot?

I've never heard THAT rumor. I'm pretty sure that WWB is made in the US, with slightly less tight quality control than more expensives Winchester rounds (accounting for some of the lower price).

(It would be hard to have it made overseas and sell it as cheaply as it's sold, once you add in the cost of shipping, the relative value of currencies, etc.)

I've always liked Sellier & Bellot with CZs, and have never had problems with Blazer aluminum rounds. I tend to buy in bulk from Natchez Shooter's Supply, getting either Blazer or S&B, whichever is least costly, for range fodder.

Yelovitz_503
July 25, 2012, 01:23 PM
I have a CZ 75 B Omega (right hand safety only) and I've never had this issue. It's been a great gun, and while I used to have another with the ambi safety I sold it a while back and kept this one. I generally don't have FTE issues or feed problems with that gun. The ammo I stick with is Sellier & Bellot, PMC, or Independence for FMJs. Independence is the only one I've ever had issues with but it was primer related and not a weapon malfunction. For HPs I always use Speer Gold Dot, both +P and regular. I've never bought ammo from Walmart, it sounds cheap, but it also sounds like you're getting what you pay for.

schmeky
July 25, 2012, 09:46 PM
the factory recoil spring was swapped out for a heavier weight 15# wilson combat spring and initially, that seemed to improve reliability, even giving me a trouble free 150 shot string at one point but today, my pistol was choking and gagging even with the new recoil spring, extractor and extractor spring.
1st 100 rounds = 4 FTEs
2nd 100 rounds = 2 FTEs
3rd 100 rounds = 1 FTE and 1 stovepipe
4th 100 rounds = 1 FTE and 1 stovepipe

I believe we have a "Check" here. First mistake is going up on the recoil spring when using the mildly loaded WWB. You should be going down on the recoil spring. Tune the ammo/pistol to the recoil spring by ejection distance. I would be willng to bet a month of 1SOW's pay your empties are not landing very far from your stance.

Stovepipe, now we have a "Checkmate". Stovepipes are most commonly to heavy a recoil spring or a faulty extractor, which you have already addressed, no need to fix the extractor twice.

SharpsDressedMan
July 25, 2012, 10:33 PM
I'm going to go on record saying that although I love the CZ75, particularly the pre-B models (I have two), the springs from those early guns all seem to have aged to the weak side. I had some of the same problems that you have had, and I changed the extractor in one gun, and extractor, mag catch, recoil , AND mag springs in both guns. Now they are both 100%. I do not know which replacement fixed which problems specifically, but the springs DID seem to be weak compared to the Wolff and CZ replacement springs. If you are still having problems, try a more solid grip. Maybe you are weak wristing it just on occasion, and that CAN affect extraction & ejection in a sporadic way.

pat701
July 26, 2012, 03:46 PM
You should have saved up $150 to $200 and gotten a Sig. For the same money you paid you could have gotten a CPO SIG:what:

One_Jackal
July 26, 2012, 04:16 PM
I have owned several 9mm's only 2 of them shot any ammo well. One is a Hi Point 995B carbine, the other a glock 17. I still own both of them. The rest only shoot one or two loads well. One of the things I have run into with Eastern Block weapons is they only shoot +P or NATO loads well. In their native land they are only shot with NATO rounds. In turn, they have heavier springs than pistols designed for use with target loads. I don't know if that is the case with your CZ but it is something to consider.

Walt Sherrill
July 26, 2012, 05:15 PM
The rest only shoot one or two loads well. One of the things I have run into with Eastern Block weapons is they only shoot +P or NATO loads well. In their native land they are only shot with NATO rounds.

Hmm. Wonder why that is? And what guns are you thinking of?

Most Eastern Bloc weapons (mostly 9mm, I think) were developed for sale to the West, and were generally from countries that weren't part of NATO. (Hungary, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Serbia, etc.)

Most of the Eastern Bloc countries didn't use western calibers until LONG AFTER the Soviet Bloc fell. To further complicate matters, NATO-rated ammo isn't all that easy to find here in the US, and is even less easy to find in what was once the Eastern Bloc. It make a person wonder why gun makers would build guns that run best with NATO that few can find easily?

The CZ-75 itself (according to CZ) was designed for private (not military use) and was built around the Sellier & Bellot 124 gr. round. The Western embargo of Soviet Bloc countries limited its sale in the West.

One_Jackal
July 26, 2012, 11:27 PM
Maybe I used the term eastern block loosely. I am no geographic expert. The guns I am referring to are the ATI/CDNN variety. Not a CZ. A friend bought a ATI 9mm - ATI's response was the gun was designed for NATO rounds. It ate +P and NATO rounds voraciously. Ever since then if the gun name had to many consonants in a row for me to pronounce I tried it with +P/NATO ammo and got good results.

Walt Sherrill
July 27, 2012, 07:05 AM
A lot of the ATI weapons are made in the Philippines. Seem to be good guns. I've had a few of the oddball guns ("too many consonants in a row for me to pronounce") guns, over the years, but never found them to be happier with NATO or other (almost-+P) rounds. Maybe it's just the luck of the draw...

One_Jackal
July 27, 2012, 07:18 AM
Winchester Rangers are loaded to NATO spec. They are pretty common around here.

Pilot
July 27, 2012, 09:23 AM
My 1996 Turkish contract 75B used to choke on WWB, but I have a stronger Wolff recoil spring in it. I replaced the extractor spring with a stronger Wolff spring and that seems to have fixed it. Do that, and if you continue to have problems replace the extractor as well.

majortoo
July 27, 2012, 10:35 AM
I had an old CZ75 Semi Compact (short barrel with full size magazine and grip) that functioned perfectly with everything I ever fired. Rounds included Winchester NATO 9mm (124 grain, loaded at plus P specs) and Remington Golden Saber plus P 124 grain. I sold it a few years ago, only because it was a bit large for concealed carry. Solid, reliable and accurate.

Bozwell
July 27, 2012, 12:43 PM
To all the CZ-75 users who's pieces have choked repeatedly on WWB, what other ammo other than Speer Lawman or Sellier and Bellot do you recommend which CZ 75s seem to like? I've seen PMC mentioned here. Is 9mm PMC ammo a sure fire cure for the WWB curse?? Do federal 9mm hi-shoks feed well in CZ-75s?

Are there a lot of those people? I personally haven't heard of or experienced CZ's being very picky when it comes to ammo. I've shot quite a lot of WWB from a variety of CZ's and I've never had any problems.

It's possible you got a bad batch of ammo. I'd try diagnosing the problem by using a variety of different magazines and buy half a dozen different types of ammo. Head to the range and keep good notes about what magazines experienced problems and with what ammo. Last time I did this, we reviewed our notes at the end of the day and discovered the problem was not with the gun but instead with my friend's wrist.

Walt Sherrill
July 27, 2012, 01:45 PM
At one time -- and that may not be the case NOW -- the extractor groove on the WWB Value Pack ammo was different than most ammo, and didn't allow the CZ extractor to get a good grasp on the rim with SOME guns. (Extra-strength extractor springs seemed to help remedy the problem.)

The rim (viewed on the side, with the base to the right) looked like this: \/ rather than the more standard \|.

I've had a bunch of CZs and only had a few problems with WWB, and that went away with the changed-out extractor spring.

itchy1
July 28, 2012, 07:44 AM
The only ammo that has ever choked my 75b was WWB. Upon closer inspection of the remaining rounds, the OAL for several was noticeably shorter.

PabloJ
July 28, 2012, 07:54 AM
Dear All,

I previously posted about how I was having problems with my made in 1995 CZ-75 (No B) that had been bought un-used from a dealers armoury in NIB condition. In the first 1200 rounds, all of which was WWB, it gave me 13 FTEs and even after I swapped out the recoil spring for an improved one and changed the extractor and extractor spring for factory fresh spares from CZ, it still gives me FTEs and stovepipes! Today, I shot 400 rounds of WWB 9mm and I experienced 10 FTEs even after I had changed recoil and extractor springs before shooting and has swapped out the recoil spring for a new one at the end of the last range session! :fire:

Do any of you guys who own cz-75s have problems with 9mm WWB especially the 100 round value packs? If you do then do other brands of 9mm provide better reliability?
You should have sold that gun instead of doing all this work to it. I would have moved on long ago.

briang2ad
July 28, 2012, 10:36 AM
after I had changed recoil and extractor springs before shooting and has swapped out the recoil spring for a new one at the end of the last range session!

I've read and been part of the CZ forum for years, and have never heard of a CZ 75 series in which the problem wasn't either the extractor spring or MAYBE a wrong slide stop (9mm in a .40).

MAYBE changing the recoil SPRING ALSO only changed the problem. Change one thing at a time. CZs were designed with a fairly weak recoil spring. WWB is weak ammo. "Improved" usually means stronger, and this MAY lead to issues with weak ammo like WWB. Glocks are now having issues with weak ammo, and at least early on was from STRONG springs.

Normally, patience in a CZ bears fruit. They are very reliable and normally very accurate.

Does this happen with other cheap ammo?

f4t9r
July 28, 2012, 10:42 AM
visit the CZ forum , contact CZ. I have two 75B and never a problem with ammo. It feeds everything and is very dependable and accurate.

Tired_and_hungry
July 29, 2012, 04:42 AM
I live in a 75-85% humidity environment and the WWB rounds that I acquired were apparently stored in a humid environment for at least 1 year before I got them. Hence, the cartridges are tarnished with oxidisation spots occuring everywhere, even on the extraction groove/rim. Will corroded cartridges affect extraction and lead to FTEs?

Kiln
July 29, 2012, 04:48 AM
Sorry, wish I could help but both CZ75B pistols I've shot (including mine with several thousand rounds through it) have digested everything I have tried to fire flawlessly.

Sometimes you get a lemon with every firearms maker. I bought a Norinco 213 that jammed 2-3 times per mag and almost every review I could find online was positive. It took tons of adjustment to the magazine to get it working properly.

Tomahawk674
July 29, 2012, 08:18 AM
Hey guys, I wanted to give my 2 cents.

I have a Smith & Wesson 659 9mm. This gun functions flawless unless the extractor is really dirty. Yesterday I tried some of that Winchester White Box 124 grain ammo, and was getting FTEs here and there. I tried pressing an empty case into the chamber and it was really tight, my gun was clean.

Also, "TiredandHungry" the brass on the rounds were really tarnished, but I also don't know if that had anything to do with it.

JROC
July 29, 2012, 02:57 PM
I have a 93 model pre-B I bought surplus and I've never once had a FTF/FTE. I've never fired WWB with it, but I have shot plenty of cheap/budget 9mm ammo with it, and have never had a problem. My favorite ammo for it is Winchester Ranger,(I liked the old 147 gr JHP, but I haven't seen that stuff in a while) but that's usually not what I plink with. lol

SharpsDressedMan
July 29, 2012, 06:07 PM
If it is the ammo, and the case heads are smaller than industry standard, etc, that would explain why I got some FTE's with reloaded ammo made from range brass (WWC and Win) a few times with several of my guns.

Ohio Gun Guy
July 29, 2012, 06:12 PM
I have a new-er CZ-75B, 5 years old +/-. I have never had (Knocking on wood after reading this post) any problems with any ammo. Not 1....

I shoot primarily Winchester White Box, which I believe you are referring to WWB. I've used CCI & anything else I've found on sale.

Sounds odd to me. My spare mags are the CZ factory mags, fyi.

Let us know.

CmdrSlander
July 30, 2012, 03:17 AM
I had a lot of problems with a Rock Island Armory M1911 in 9mm. I used WWB at the time. I came on this forum and complained about WWB only to discover that the ammo was not the problem. Apparently the pistol was not lubricated well enough for reliable functioning, especially with lower end ammo. Before you go to the range, field strip the gun and apply gun lube liberally to all metal on metal contact points, to the point that the gun drips when you pick it up, it should be flawless after that. I also like to put a little Hoppes gun lubricant on the magazine follower as well, not only does this make loading easier, but each casing is lubed on its way into the chamber maximizing reliable feeding and ejection.

According to another person on this forum who's name escapes me at the moment, this, shall we call it 'over-lubrication' was common practice in the early days of competition autoloader shooting, shooters at the time often jokingly referred to their shooting hand and arm as the pistol's "drip point."

Pilot
July 30, 2012, 09:08 AM
You should have saved up $150 to $200 and gotten a Sig. For the same money you paid you could have gotten a CPO SIG

Sigs are fine guns, and I've had a few. I find my CZ's just as reliable, and easier to shoot well. The Sigs are a bit blocky with a higher bore axis, and don't seem to fit my hand as well. The control placement is also counter-intuitive.

My P228 sits in my save while my CZ PCR rides in its holster daily.

Tired_and_hungry
August 1, 2012, 10:20 PM
Had a glimmer of hope yesterday that my pre-B cz-75 was not a total lemon. Got my hands on some 129gr PMC FMJ rounds that were manufactured for the Jamican Constabulary Force IPSC team and shot 250 rounds as a reliability test to see if they fed reliably in my pistol.

Long story short, the 129gr rounds shot about 4-5"s lower than the 115gr WWB but THERE WERE ABSOLUTELY NO JAMS WHATSOEVER. :)

The only problem was that one casing ejected from my pistol and bounced off the top of my hearing protection headband and another ejected to hit me in the right bicep. Also, in one particular instance, the last cartridge ejected but that slide did not lock back.

Are there any technical reasons why a heavier projectile loaded to the same power as WWB would function more reliably? I'm going to buy some CCI lawman 124gr rounds soon......keeping my fingers crossed that they all extract without hiccups! :uhoh:

schmeky
August 1, 2012, 10:25 PM
Tired and Hungry,

I wish I could find the pic I took and downloaded onto my computer. I was a macro pic of a WWB round that ABSOLUTELY NO CRIMP. In fact, the case mouth was still belled.

I did not check back on this thread, but you do know WWB is the stuff that did not make through QA/QC? It's a cheap, medium pressure plinking load.

atblis
August 1, 2012, 10:29 PM
WWB is known for undersized/malformed rims and also problems with CZs. Grab a set of calipers and start measuring.

Walt Sherrill
August 2, 2012, 07:25 AM
From what you describe, sounds as though the 129 gr round is about as erratic as WWB. The fact that rounds aren't all ejecting the same suggest inconsistencies in the loads.

Typically, heavier bullets hit HIGHER than lighter bullets, because they're traveling a bit slower and recoil has caused the barrel to tilt up a bit more. That yours are hitting lower suggests a much less powerful round.

The slide not locking back after the last round typically means a weak magazine spring (not pushing the slide stop UP enough for it to engage the slide), although the fact it seems to occur ONLY with that specific type of round and not others, is puzzling.

(What I have done with such problems, after I've given up, is take the gun and a box of known good ammo, to my gunsmith, and asked him to figure it out. It generally works.)

I have always had good results from Sellier & Bellot ammo, and the S&B 124 gr. round is what CZ says they built the gun around. I also like ammo from Georgia Arms; I buy in bulk from them, on the web.

larryh1108
August 2, 2012, 08:09 AM
+1 on the S&B ammo for any European gun. For whatever reason S&B is the answer to a lot of issues with the European made arms.

CZguy
August 2, 2012, 03:41 PM
+1 on the S&B ammo for any European gun. For whatever reason S&B is the answer to a lot of issues with the European made arms.

Any gun really.........S&B is good ammo.

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