Maryland Finally Goes Shall Issue


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P.O.2010
July 24, 2012, 08:03 PM
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bal-access-widens-to-maryland-gun-carry-permits-20120724,0,7660075.story

"In two weeks, the Maryland State Police must stop denying gun carry permits to applicants who don’t present a “good and substantial reason” for wearing a firearm, according to a federal court ruling handed down late Monday.

The ruling loosens restrictions governing gun possession on the state’s streets and is expected to significantly widen the pool of people carrying firearms.

U.S. District Court Judge Benson E. Legg struck down the “good and substantial” requirement as unconstitutional in a March ruling, but temporarily delayed implementation of his decision to consider whether it should be stayed for a longer period pending an appeal by the state’s attorney general’s office.

But in an eight-page memorandum signed Monday, Legg determined that there was no basis for a stay and issued an order dissolving the temporary delay effective 14 days later..."

"The federal decision struck down that requirement and effectively shifted Maryland to a “shall issue” policy, like a majority of states, which automatically issue gun-carry permits once basic safety conditions are met."

_______________________

All I can say is it's about time. Finally citizens throughout the State, and Baltimore City in particular, will be able to shoot back when threatened with murder, rape and armed robbery and not have to fear arrest for a "wear, carry, transport" charge. Hopefully the Court will uphold Judge Legg's ruling when Maryland's appeal is heard.

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Rob G
July 24, 2012, 08:06 PM
Yay! Gotta love freedom.

I predict that the bureacrats in Maryland will be very busy processing CHL applications.

Alaska444
July 24, 2012, 08:10 PM
Wow, one for the Gipper!! I hope it is not over ruled at a higher court.

GoWolfpack
July 24, 2012, 08:27 PM
That's great for the people that live there, but the next step is to get them honoring permits from other states. I really can't wait to go freely armed through my neighbor to the north.

P.O.2010
July 24, 2012, 08:31 PM
http://www.marylandshallissue.org/share/order.stay.pdf

A copy of the order, signed by Judge Legg, lifting the stay and ordering the state to begin issuing concealed handgun licenses.

bushmaster1313
July 24, 2012, 08:50 PM
The NJ fed judge came out the other way.

Twmaster
July 24, 2012, 09:10 PM
The NJ fed judge came out the other way.
Care to explain what you mean?

hermannr
July 24, 2012, 09:18 PM
coming soon to NY, NJ, MA, HI, CA....

bushmaster1313
July 24, 2012, 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bushmaster1313
The NJ fed judge came out the other way.
Care to explain what you mean?


Similar case in New Jersey the Federal Judge found that there was no 2nd Amendment right to bear arms outside the home and even if there was, may issue was constitutional.

Case has been appealed

No. 12-1150

DANIEL J. PISZCZATOSKI, et al.,
Plaintiffs-Appellants,
v.
THE HON. RUDOLPH A. FILKO, et al

This is the brief of the State on Appeal:

http://anjrpc.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/Legal_Motions___Briefs/NJ_AG_Appellate_Brief_RTC.pdf

leadcounsel
July 24, 2012, 09:59 PM
Congrats to MD!!!!!!

Hope for reciprocity soon!

INMY01TA
July 24, 2012, 10:00 PM
That's great for the people that live there, but the next step is to get them honoring permits from other states. I really can't wait to go freely armed through my neighbor to the north.
Why not just get your own Md permit? Anyone out of state can apply.
Application process is the same.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/maryland.pdf

Midwest
July 24, 2012, 11:13 PM
Congratulations to the fine people of Maryland.

bushmaster1313
July 24, 2012, 11:55 PM
Congratulations to the fine people of Maryland.

The result of a George H. W. Bush appointee taking a fair look at the Second Amendment.

Note this from the opinion (i.e., the State could not show that shall issue caused more violence):

For this reason, the Court directed the parties to file supplemental briefs addressing how
Maryland‟s permitting scheme, without the “good and substantial reason” requirement, compares
to the systems in force in other states and how Maryland‟s rate of handgun violence compares to
that of other states with more liberal regulations. The Second Amendment does not “require
judges to assess the costs and benefits of firearms restrictions and thus to make difficult
empirical judgments in an area in which they lack expertise.” McDonald, 130 S. Ct. at 3050.
Nevertheless, persuasive evidence that states with more permissive regulatory schemes suffer
from more handgun crime, or that states experience an increase in handgun violence when
moving from a “may issue” to a “shall issue” framework, would certainly militate in favor of a
stay.
The parties have conducted commendably thorough research on the subject, and each has
dedicated considerable time and energy to debating the relative merits of the studies and statistics
offered by the other. The inescapable conclusion, however, is that the evidence does not point
strongly in any one direction. As Defendants aptly state, “Identifying causal trends in crime data
is notoriously difficult in any circumstance because of the multiplicity of variables that impact
crime and the different effects of those variables in different places and on different people.”
Defs.‟ Supp. Brief 5, Docket No. 68. On this dimension, then, the Court cannot say that a stay
would demonstrably serve or disserve the State‟s goal of preventing a potential increase in
Case 1:10-cv-02068-BEL Document 71 Filed 07/23/12 Page 7 of 88
handgun violence pending appeal. Defendants have not established that the public interest
weighs in favor of a stay.
IV. CONCLUSION
Having given due weight to the four Hilton factors, the Court determines that a stay
pending appeal is not warranted. The Court will, by separate Order, lift the temporary stay now
in effect.
Dated this 23rd day of July, 2012

/s/
_______________________________
Benson Everett Legg
United States District Judge
Case 1:10-cv

Hugo
July 25, 2012, 01:34 AM
About $#%ing time. Now for NJ, IL, CA, MA, and anywhere else this BS is law. So stupid and as Mr. Spock in Star Trek would say, "Extremely Illogical".

Twmaster
July 25, 2012, 05:17 AM
Bushmaster, thanks for the NJ link.

As a former resident of MD I am happy to see this day. Not happy enough to move back. For now Texas suits me just fine.

Carl Levitian
July 25, 2012, 07:45 AM
Hold on guys!

As a life long inmate of the Peoples Republik Of Maryland, my attitude is; knowing the state police I'm gonna believe it when I see it. Just too god to be true. I guess I'll fill out the paper work, but I'm not gone hold my breath. The state police in this republic have too long played footsie with the crooked liberal politicians in the state house up in Annapolis. Somehow, there're going to try to toss a monkey wrench in the works.

But I'm putting in my paperwork. We'll see.

WVleo
July 25, 2012, 07:46 AM
Well let's just wait and see if this really goes into action or if another route is taken by the politicians in Maryland to thwart this ! I hope for the sake of Maryland residents that they can now legally carry a concealed weapon for self defense. We'll see soon enough !....WVleo

wbwanzer
July 25, 2012, 09:52 AM
Hold on guys!

As a life long inmate of the Peoples Republik Of Maryland, my attitude is; knowing the state police I'm gonna believe it when I see it. Just too god to be true. I guess I'll fill out the paper work, but I'm not gone hold my breath. The state police in this republic have too long played footsie with the crooked liberal politicians in the state house up in Annapolis. Somehow, there're going to try to toss a monkey wrench in the works.

But I'm putting in my paperwork. We'll see.
I'm with Carl on this. I'll turn in the paperwork and other requirements and hope that I can get a permit before new laws are put in place to foil this change. I wouldn't be surprised if a special session of the legislature isn't called just to address this issue. The liberal ani-gunners running this state aren't going to take this lying down.

Sam1911
July 25, 2012, 10:10 AM
Oh holy goodness that is AWESOME news! :)

This former Annapolis resident is thrilled. A victory celebration at the Rams Head on West Street is a must!

Johnny, I'll see you there, for sure! :)

BullfrogKen
July 25, 2012, 10:49 AM
I remember reviewing the application when the decision first came out, but was still under a temporary stay.

From my memory, doesn't it ask you for information like who your doctors are, the medications you take, whether you've ever been to a counselor or mental health professional?

Anyway, I thought the whole application process was a bit much.

The other concern I have with it is I don't know the criteria the MD State Police are going to use to make their determination. But I DO know the way they operate, and I wouldn't be surprised if an Eagle Scout couldn't pass their scrutiny.

I'd be very concerned they'd tell a whole lot of good and decent people "No, you can't have one." Many other states ask if you've ever been denied a license or permit by another state, and then they'd have to answer yes if they move or otherwise apply for an out-of-state license/permit elsewhere.

Trent
July 25, 2012, 12:52 PM
Congrats!

(Illinois still sucks.)

JShirley
July 25, 2012, 01:57 PM
Yes! One more reason to look forward to returning!

Sam1911
July 25, 2012, 07:13 PM
I just got off the phone with a good pal of mine who (an MSI Executive Board Member) is involved deeply in this issue. He strongly recommends that anyone interested read this thread on the MD Shooters forum:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=87576

As a teaser I'll say the news is GOOD. Really REALLY GOOD. MSP is not fighting the matter, and we have some allies where most of us never expected.

There are hundreds of permit apps which have been received and completed already, and which WILL be issued in the next two weeks.

I'm sure there are battles to fight yet, but if you have a strong itch to do a few preliminary steps of the dance of joy, there in the privacy of your home, that would probably be appropriate. :)

And when you get done moonwalking across the den, drop MSI a thank you and maybe a donation. Few times will you ever get to see so few fight so hard for so long, and WIN.

cbrgator
July 25, 2012, 07:13 PM
Maryland is governed by the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals and New Jersey is in the Third. If these district judges rulings are appealed and the Circuits rule differently, that's a fast track being granted certiorari bu the Supreme Court.

hirundo82
July 25, 2012, 10:36 PM
Wow, this is amazing news. I'm looking very seriously at moving to Maryland next summer for further training after I graduate, and this makes me feel much more positive about that. Now let's just hope this doesn't get put on hold by the 4th Circuit.

bushmaster1313
July 25, 2012, 10:54 PM
This from the State of New Jersey's Brief:

The carrying of a handgun inherently comes with the dangers and risks of its
Case: 12-1150 Document: 003110942906 Page: 47 Date Filed: 06/28/201242
misuse or accidental use. These dangers and risks are borne by everyone with whom
the person encounters. The State has a significant, indeed compelling, interest in its
citizens being kept safe from those inherent dangers and risks. This compelling
interest cannot be ignored or dismissed, and it is simply reasonable, in the face of that
interest, to require an applicant to show a justifiable need before subjecting his fellow
citizens to the possibility of great harm.
In sum, the justifiable need requirement combats the dangers and risks
associated with the misuse and accidental use of handguns that are borne, not only by
the person seeking the permit, but by the citizenry he encounters. It is a constitutional
and integral component of New Jersey’s carefully considered and long-standing
scheme to reasonably regulate firearms in the furtherance of public safety.

This From the Honorable District Court in Maryland:

At bottom, this case rests on a simple proposition: If the Government
wishes to burden a right guaranteed by the Constitution, it may do
so provided that it can show a satisfactory justification and a
sufficiently adapted method. The showing, however, is always the
Government’s to make. A citizen may not be required to offer a “good
and substantial reason” why he should be permitted to exercise his
rights. The right’s existence is all the reason he needs.

INMY01TA
July 26, 2012, 12:20 PM
I'd like to buy Benson Legg a beer. My app was turned in back in March. I should hopefully be in the first wave of apps to be issued. :)

Creature
July 26, 2012, 12:25 PM
Does this ruling differentiate between open carry and concealed carry? Does this mean that Maryland "shall issue" for CC?

INMY01TA
July 26, 2012, 01:30 PM
Marylands handgun permit does not specify open or concealed but open carry is pretty much non existant and I'm sure would attract the attention of law enforcement.

brickeyee
July 26, 2012, 04:35 PM
They will simply not process the application.

They have decided what is safe and correct for you.

JERRY
July 26, 2012, 04:38 PM
i will wait until there is actual shall issue being issued.

INMY01TA
July 26, 2012, 04:40 PM
They will simply not process the application.

They have decided what is safe and correct for you.



Nonsense. The application does not and can not specify open or concealed carry.

i will wait until there is actual shall issue being issued.
The judge has already struck down good and substantial. Unless the CA4 issues an emergency stay we are shall issue but this can happen anytime during the whole appeal. You'd be waiting quite awhile till that's over.

Sam1911
July 26, 2012, 04:41 PM
They will simply not process the application.

They have decided what is safe and correct for you.
Did you read the link? They cannot simply "not process" the application. It isn't up to them and they don't want to fight this anyway. The MSP is working WITH US on this.

i will wait until there is actual shall issue being issued. You only have to wait until Aug. 6th, as there are hundreds of completed, approved applications which will be hitting the mails that day. That's straight from the MSP's mouth.

Seriously guys, please go read the link and get informed.

brickeyee
July 26, 2012, 04:57 PM
Did you read the link? They cannot simply "not process" the application. It isn't up to them and they don't want to fight this anyway. The MSP is working WITH US on this.

The MSP is beholden to the politicians.

Do you really think they will go against their master's?

Get real.

Sam1911
July 26, 2012, 05:56 PM
Ok, so you won't read it and inform yourself. That's too bad, but you really should. The information in that thread is, in part, coming FROM MSP. :)

INMY01TA
July 26, 2012, 06:31 PM
The MSP is beholden to the politicians.

Do you really think they will go against their master's?

Get real.When ordered by a Federal court order concerning a civil right they will. Not even Owemalley is that stupid. Believe what you want.

rajb123
July 27, 2012, 12:58 AM
The Supremes struck down the restrictions on the DC gun control laws about 2 years ago but citizens are still waiting for relief....and permits are not being handed out like candy...

Unfortunately, the antis in this case will continue to place road blocks in the way....so don't cellabrate anything yet...

hermannr
July 27, 2012, 01:17 AM
the MSP are trying to do the right thing...read the MD link...it is worth the read. The politics (many blood sucking insects) will come later.

INMY01TA
July 27, 2012, 01:25 AM
If the antis here in Md want to place road blocks in the way they'll have to wait till the next legilative session. For now good and substantial has been removed. Permits will just be processed without it for now.

Bubba613
July 27, 2012, 05:58 AM
The website for the Maryland State Police still lists the good and substantial criterion, and a list of approvable people based on that.
http://www.mdsp.org/Organization/SupportServicesBureau/LicensingDivision/HandgunPermit.aspx

cpileri
July 27, 2012, 08:20 AM
i am SO tagging this thread! As soon as someone actually receives their permit under the new system, especially an out-of-state resident; i will get mine (*), and add MD back onto the list of places i dont mind visiting.

Good news!
C-

(*) unless they decide to reciprocate with Texas, then its all the better

Sam1911
July 27, 2012, 08:49 AM
The website for the Maryland State Police still lists the good and substantial criterion, and a list of approvable people based on that.
http://www.mdsp.org/Organization/Sup...gunPermit.aspx
Like almost every other organization everywhere, updating all their documentation and website stuff will probably lag a bit. Especially as the last stay was announced to be ending just four days ago!

swinokur
July 27, 2012, 09:14 AM
Please remember that MD has appealed the ruling to the 4CA in Richmond.

This is not yet a done deal.

Fingers crossed however. The stay is officially lifted on 8-8-12

INMY01TA
July 27, 2012, 07:38 PM
Just remember every other state in the 4th is already shall issue also.

MAKster
July 27, 2012, 10:22 PM
The new rules don't go into effect until August 7 so you won't see a revised application on the Maryland State Police web site until then.

Norton
July 28, 2012, 06:42 AM
They will simply not process the application.

They have decided what is safe and correct for you.
We've been listening to this for 8 years now.

"You're wasting your time"
"It will never happen"
"Don't bother"

Meanwhile we keep moving forward every time and still have to listen to the naysayers.

I guess some people just can't accept that it's going to happen.

AirForceShooter
July 28, 2012, 08:33 AM
It's the District Court.
Anyplace else it's called round one.

We have a long way to go.
This will eventually wind up at the SCOTUS door

AFS

Creature
July 28, 2012, 09:28 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/maryland-attorney-general-seeks-stay-pending-appeal-of-gun-permit-ruling/2012/07/27/gJQA2BcbEX_story.html

Maryland attorney general seeks stay pending appeal of gun permit ruling
By Associated Press, Published: July 27

Still waiting for the stay ruling.

crossrhodes
July 28, 2012, 10:14 AM
This is good news but I think it will be a "when pigs fly" you can CCW in that state. Hope I'm wrong.

Zeeemu
July 28, 2012, 11:54 AM
I wonder, will Maryland CC holder names and addresses be listed in a public database or be available for newspapers to publish?

swinokur
July 29, 2012, 07:38 AM
Currently, the database can't be dumped. Certain elements in the database are publicly available. Maybe the GA will close it to public access.

swinokur
July 29, 2012, 07:40 AM
Maryland attorney general seeks stay pending appeal of gun permit ruling
By Associated Press, Published: July 27

Still waiting for the stay ruling.
__________________

The CA4 told Gura-SAF to have their reply brief into the court by 7-31. This is going to get a quick ruling IMO.

brickeyee
July 29, 2012, 10:38 AM
coming FROM MSP

Do you really think he is going to put his job and pension on the lie if the politicians say no?

He can SAY whatever he wants, he is NOT the final authority.

Remember how democratic republics work?

ilbob
July 29, 2012, 11:14 AM
Do you really think he is going to put his job and pension on the lie if the politicians say no?

He can SAY whatever he wants, he is NOT the final authority.

Remember how democratic republics work?
Like with all employees keeping one's job is a big deal and one will normally not do things that will directly put that job at risk.

The antis know the gig is up, or at least think there is a good chance that it is up. They are just playing out their hand.

They will throw up whatever road blocks they can but they will not directly defy the federal courts. They might just eliminate the LTC provision entirely, and then you start over.

Sam1911
July 29, 2012, 11:38 AM
Do you really think he is going to put his job and pension on the lie if the politicians say no?This individual has a job and his job is to follow the law and the law doesn't give him leeway in denying permits just because some Assemblymen don't like it.

FWIW, there are individuals in the MSP licensing department who have taken clear stands in favor of gun rights and carry rights, in opposition to political pressures from above. There is a lot more going on here than a simplistic, cynical view will encompass. If you're interested in learning about who's done what and for which side, I'd be happy to put you in touch with some people who have that information, but if you're content to disparage without knowledge, by all means proceed! :)


He can SAY whatever he wants, he is NOT the final authority.

Remember how democratic republics work? Yes. That's what we've been pointing out. This is going through the proper channels of review. It is not in the hands of the MSP, it is no longer in the hands of the MD Assembly. The last step came out very positive for our side. The next step looks very promising as well. If it happens to falter at this next step (CA4), the steps after that look even better!

I'm really not sure what the purpose of a bunch of "when pigs fly" talk serves. I guess the glass is always half empty from some folks' points of view. :)

brickeyee
July 29, 2012, 11:56 AM
This individual has a job and his job is to follow the law and the law doesn't give him leeway in denying permits just because some Assemblymen don't like it.

Unless the law sets both time limits AND a penalty for not following the time limits (and you can find a state attorney to pursue violations of the time limit) there is nothing forcing any bureaucrat to operate in an expeditious manner.

Sam1911
July 29, 2012, 12:04 PM
Unless the law sets both time limits AND a penalty for not following the time limits (and you can find a state attorney to pursue violations of the time limit) there is nothing forcing any bureaucrat to operate in an expeditious manner.

As of July 24th, MSP was already sitting on 365 completed permits waiting to go out as soon as the stay is lifted. (Don't know how many more they've completed in the last 5 days.) So, in this case they're way out in front of the law and are actually slowed down by it.

Is that because they want to stall and refuse to process to appease their political masters?

Have you read the linked thread yet?

swinokur
July 29, 2012, 04:12 PM
MSP follows the law, not the whims of politicians or the organization's own internalopinions. They've been more than fair in their dealings so far. They even returned uncashed checks and apps to folks who applied after the District Court stay. They could legally have cashed every check but they took the HIGH ROAD.

We need to do the same. I applied pre stay so I'm patiently waiting for my permit too. It's a process.

tek610
July 29, 2012, 10:47 PM
Great news! When I lived in VA where I was a CCW holder, I'd have to leave it at home when I worked in MD. I owned a studio in PG County, perhaps where CCW is needed most.

Congrats, MD. It may be slow to implement and for processing to become routine, but it's a GIANT step in the right direction.

It'll probably be another two decades before DC gets it right. If ever.

brickeyee
July 30, 2012, 04:43 PM
Have you read the linked thread yet?

I read it beofre the first time you asked.

There appears to be NO law that compels the police to have a time limit.

As a bureaucrat they can take whatever time they feel necessary.

Not being the highest bureaucrat in the pecking order, they can be pressured by their bosses.

We used to have a 5 day period for the police to check on handgun transfers in Fairfax County VA.
The police routinely dragged their feet, sometimes to double that.

The Commonwealths Attorney in Fairfax County (Horan IIRC) refused to take ANY action to make the police comply with the law, and repeatedly threatened any FFL who transferred a handgun without the postcard approval returned from the police with criminal prosecution.

Guess what happened?

NOTHING.

The police took their own time, and if anyone asked it was a "manpower limit" problem.

It would appear you take politicians (and the head of the state police is a politician) at their word.

Let us know when someone has a permit in their hand.

It was not until preemption was passed at the state level removing the local power (Virginia is a Dillon rule state) that the waiting periods died.

The same preemption is what allows Virginia 'shall issue' for concealed handgun permits to function in a number of counties and cities.
Arlington County sends a 'wish list' to the state legislature every years wanting the CHP power back.

They are one of the counties that refused to issue ANY permits.

Sam1911
July 30, 2012, 07:48 PM
Let us know when someone has a permit in their hand.


That will be a pleasure!

(Though I know a few already, but they don't count as they were issued under the G&S standard.)

MAKster
July 31, 2012, 12:51 AM
Arlington County issues permits. They are required to use the exact same criteria as every other county in the state, so they could not reject permits even if they wanted to. They have 45 days max to process your application.

Norton
July 31, 2012, 08:35 AM
It was not until preemption was passed at the state level removing the local power (Virginia is a Dillon rule state) that the waiting periods died.

The same preemption is what allows Virginia 'shall issue' for concealed handgun permits to function in a number of counties and cities.
Arlington County sends a 'wish list' to the state legislature every years wanting the CHP power back.

They are one of the counties that refused to issue ANY permits.

Maryland already has preemption. So goes the state, so goes every locality. In fact, once this comes down we'll in many ways be better than WV where they have grandfathered prohibited areas.

Since Maryland has never had local laws, thanks to preemption, localities will not be able to enact prohibitions after Woollard.

brickeyee
July 31, 2012, 05:28 PM
Arlington County issues permits.

Only now that we have preemption and a shall issue law.


Before that they would NOT issue permits .

NONE.

Lived around here very long?

Pay any attention to local politics?

I lived in Arlington for 30 years.

Arlington initially tried to charge $25 for the police, $25 fot the sherrif, and $25 for the Commonwealths Attorney to process permits after shall issue wnet into affect.

The State AG came down hard on them.

ONE fee.

The judges in Arlington did NOT want to even sign the permits, thus the change that allows Clerks of the Court to sign them.

They often run right up to the 45 day limit for new permits and renewals.

It is just to expensive to take any action against them since the CA in the county is not about to lift a finger (since they are the office sitting on everything til the last minute).

rajb123
July 31, 2012, 05:43 PM
in my state, the police routinely loose all applications..... a simple fact. after resubmitting a new application, 6 months will pass and you will get a rejection letter....

....there will be a number of roadblocks and additional hurdles and I will not hold my breath.... this is going to be a long haul process and it has not even close now.....

the anti's are very strong and well funded... they do not give up easily

brickeyee
August 2, 2012, 04:09 PM
It seems the 4th Circuit has put the change over to shall issue on hold until October arguments.

Why am I NOT surprised?

bushmaster1313
August 2, 2012, 10:54 PM
This is good news but I think it will be a "when pigs fly" you can CCW in that state. Hope I'm wrong.

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/9302/flyingpig.jpg

Sam1911
August 2, 2012, 11:37 PM
I agree. The 4th Circuit court has to be convinced that MD has a compelling reason to resist this argument.

As the article says:
The state lawyers claim Legg's ruling conflicts with other courts' interpretations of the Second Amendment and will cause "irreparable harm" to law enforcement's ability to protect public safety.

The legislature "enacted the good-and-substantial-reason requirement to help protect the people of Maryland from the scourge of handgun violence," the motion to the Richmond, Va.-based appeals court states.
And that's going to play REAL well against the backdrop of every other state in the district. What does the Court look to for its most direct evidence for such a clam? The track records of VA, WV, NC, and SC. MD will essentially have to sustain a claim that it is somehow substantively unique from its neighbors and that reinstating the right of the individual to LAWFULLY carry arms is going to produce significant harms to society that none of the other states in the district have seen the slightest hint of.

While nothing is certain, it does seem that MD will be arguing its case on very hostile turf and they've already shown that given what, 270 days worth of stays already? -- they can't produce a shred of credible evidence to support those claims.

I'm thinking it will be quite entertaining to watch this unfold. :)

627PCFan
August 2, 2012, 11:38 PM
The rest of the 4th Circuit is solid 2A.WV,VA,SC,NC.

This for the win

mgkdrgn
August 4, 2012, 03:31 AM
I ain't heard no "fat lady" yet! MD will fight this down to the last taxapyer dollar and beyond.

bushmaster1313
August 5, 2012, 12:03 AM
MD will essentially have to sustain a claim that it is somehow substantively unique from its neighbors

Maryland's strict gun laws have eliminated all violent crime in places like Baltimore.

On a more serious note:

If a majority of the Court holds that the Second Amendment applies outside the home, what do the Liberal Justices do when faced with the question of whether it is Constitutional to require an individual to show a justifiable need to exercise a Constitutional right?

bushmaster1313
August 5, 2012, 02:35 AM
Official to private individual seeking to exercise Constitutional right:

"Please explain to me why you have a justifiable need a to:"

Consult with a lawyer
Read THAT book
Say THAT
Assemble with THEM
Practice THAT religion
Etc.

swinokur
August 5, 2012, 08:57 AM
4CA issues another stay.

No surprise to many folks.

WVleo
August 5, 2012, 09:33 AM
And the Pigs wings just got clipped ! How can these liberal idiots maintain power in these States is beyond Me ? .....WVleo

swinokur
August 6, 2012, 05:10 AM
Because 3 uber liberal counties run the state.

PG, Montgomery and Baltimore. The rest of the state is somewhat normal.

mgkdrgn
October 11, 2012, 05:41 PM
I ain't heard no Fat Lady yet! As long as there is a single taxpayer $ left in the treasury, they'll keep on fighting this.

swinokur
October 11, 2012, 06:13 PM
Orals to be heard at 4 CA on 10-26.

Uncle Richard
October 23, 2012, 12:21 PM
Oral arguments are to begin today through 26th regarding the appeal. Anyone hear anything?

swinokur
October 23, 2012, 01:01 PM
Woolard (MD G & S law) is tomorrow and will be fairly short. probably no more than an hour according to an appellate attorney I know who is familiar with the case and the 4CA. There is another hearing involving Gura today as you mentioned.

Starts at 9:30

There are a total of 4 cases tomorrow.

http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/calendar/internetcaloct232012ric.pdf

INMY01TA
October 23, 2012, 07:18 PM
Wish I could go watch but work owns me.

627PCFan
October 25, 2012, 11:33 AM
MSI posted some informal feedback from yesterday on Facebook, but have not updated their website yet. Ill try to copy the info over.

627PCFan
October 25, 2012, 11:36 AM
Looks like its up

http://marylandshallissue.org/2012/10/initial-woollard-review/

mgkdrgn
October 25, 2012, 12:57 PM
Well, that didn't read as very encouraging.

swinokur
October 26, 2012, 02:40 PM
MP3 of Orals: http://coop.ca4.uscourts.gov/OAarchi...7-20121024.mp3

Uncle Richard
October 30, 2012, 05:51 PM
When is the court supposed to provide a verdict?

swinokur
October 30, 2012, 05:59 PM
Conventional wisdom from most folks says 3-6 months. The court can issue when they feel like it.

Uncle Richard
November 28, 2012, 12:31 PM
I know it's probably too soon to ask.........but any word on the appeal?

swinokur
November 28, 2012, 04:33 PM
30-60 days after orals is what the experts say. The ruling in NY didn't help us either.

Twmaster
February 4, 2013, 04:15 PM
Has there been any word on this?

swinokur
February 4, 2013, 04:21 PM
Still waiting on the 4h Circuit ruling.

Twmaster
February 4, 2013, 05:44 PM
Thank you. As a former PRM subject I'm interested in seeing the lunacy end and the subjects get CCW.

xXxplosive
February 4, 2013, 06:17 PM
Boy, I sure hope, but I feel not likely......here in NJ it's like asking to see the Great Oz.....never happen.

BullfrogKen
February 5, 2013, 10:21 AM
Not many people willingly admit to being from Dundalk. :)

Go Ravens!


Wednesday hearings are scheduled on some real onerous gun legislation.

wbwanzer
February 5, 2013, 02:03 PM
I hate to be the pessimist, but since the Connecticut tragedy, O'Malley has stepped up his anti-gun attack. I don't see him letting the CCW through without some serious roadblocks. I know that AG Gansler will go to the Supreme court with this if it passes the 4th Circuit.

So I'm not holding my breath for CCW in Maryland.

Twmaster
February 5, 2013, 02:09 PM
I'm sure the AG will fight this to the bitter end.

And hey! Which of youse has a problem with Dundalk? (I grew up in Dundalk too. My great uncle owned Capt. Harvey's!)

JERRY
February 5, 2013, 03:44 PM
let us know when the first couple dozen shall issue permits get issued....

bushmaster1313
February 5, 2013, 08:45 PM
Baltimore Ravens used to be the Cleveland Browns, till they sold out.

mgkdrgn
February 6, 2013, 10:18 AM
I'm sure the AG will fight this to the bitter end.

And hey! Which of youse has a problem with Dundalk? (I grew up in Dundalk too. My great uncle owned Capt. Harvey's!)
Right down to the last taxpayer dollar and beyond.

And if they can't win, they'll just ignore the court. WHO is going to force them to issue carry permits? The Obama administration?

Sam1911
February 6, 2013, 11:01 AM
WHO is going to force them to issue carry permits? Remember, the MSP licensing folks were not only "ok" with this before the injunction, they had processed quite a few (hundreds!) of them already and are just waiting for the word "go" to send them out.

There are some really positive folks in MSP who are sympathetic to the cause. It won't be THEM fighting us.

mgkdrgn
February 6, 2013, 10:42 PM
Remember, the MSP licensing folks were not only "ok" with this before the injunction, they had processed quite a few (hundreds!) of them already and are just waiting for the word "go" to send them out.

There are some really positive folks in MSP who are sympathetic to the cause. It won't be THEM fighting us.
It won't have to be. The MD SP works for the Governor. If he says 'Nyet", then Nyet it ls. They won't issue permits in direct violation of the guy that signs their checks.

Sam1911
February 7, 2013, 06:34 AM
Well, we shall see. If the law is "shall issue" than his say-so may or may not matter much.

wbwanzer
February 7, 2013, 09:20 AM
If the decision turns out to be 'Shall Issue", I'm sure that O'Malley already has a lot of other roadblocks planned to make it difficult for us to actually carry. He won't take it lying down.

Jeff H
February 18, 2013, 11:51 AM
Any update on this?

I heard from my wife that one of her coworkers in Maryland testified during some sort of hearing a couple of weeks ago regarding this issue but I haven't been able to find out any more information because my wife generally doesn't care about gun issues.

swinokur
February 18, 2013, 11:53 AM
Still waiting on a ruling from the 4th Circuit in Richmond.

Uncle Richard
March 3, 2013, 08:31 AM
Still waiting?

swinokur
March 3, 2013, 08:32 AM
yes

Uncle Richard
July 30, 2013, 01:10 PM
Any progress with Maryland becoming "shall issue"?

swinokur
July 30, 2013, 01:40 PM
Not really. We lost in the 4CA. SAF has requested CERT from SCOTUS but we won't know that until October. A circuit split may be our last chance if CERT is denied.

wildbilll
July 30, 2013, 07:56 PM
Totally amazing. A may issue criteria that is subject to the whims of the political office occupants. Sounds really like equal protection. I really hope SCOTUS takes this. I would love to hear the state explain to the court how they think its fair to deny permits to people who have absolutely zero criminal record, who don't meet the arbitrary definitions that the state can't rationally explain.

swinokur
July 30, 2013, 08:24 PM
Sad indeed.

mgkdrgn
July 31, 2013, 11:47 PM
Still waitin on The Fat Lady .... and yes it is sad, one of the many reasons I left.:banghead:

GoWolfpack
August 2, 2013, 02:54 PM
Not many people willingly admit to being from Dundalk.



I haven't been tracking this thread, but my coworker sitting less than 20 feet from me is proudly (I assume) from Dundalk.

Uncle Richard
October 8, 2013, 12:42 PM
any progress with the fat lady singing?

Pilot
October 8, 2013, 01:11 PM
The problem is that the Supreme Court in Heller indicated that "reasonable" restrictions may be put on the right to keep and bear arms. This leaves a huge interpretation open to what each judge considers "reasonable". Those in places like MD, IL, CA, NJ, NY, MA, etc that bought by liberal politicians interpret reasonable to be any restriction the pols want.

swinokur
October 8, 2013, 02:50 PM
SAF requested CERT from SCOTUS. The hearing is the 11th. We'll know after that meeting.

Uncle Richard
February 14, 2014, 01:52 PM
Will and how can the win in the 9th District Court affect this case in Maryland?

swinokur
February 14, 2014, 02:03 PM
If it is upheld by the 9CA en banc and then CERT is granted by SCOTOS and SCOTUS affirms, it will strike down the ruling from the 4CA that overturned Woolard, thus allowing a path to removing G&S as a reason for MD to deny permits. That's a long way off however.

INMY01TA
February 14, 2014, 07:12 PM
SCOTUS could however grant cert to Drake much sooner though.

mgkdrgn
February 15, 2014, 03:35 PM
Coming up on TWO YEARS now, and still no fat lady. I told you they would delay and drag out and fight this down to the last tax payer dollar and beyond.

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