[mljdeckard]

Ok, so I took out my maiden lot of newly loaded .45s to shoot. This is a mix of mostly WWB brass, with a few Federal nickle ones thrown in. (This problem was all with the brass ones.) I shot a few mags through new Wilson 47Ds, about 30 of them through my Kimber, no problem.

Switched to the Para SF-45A, (Para SA, double stack,) and first round fails to go into battery. Not only does the slide fail to go forward, a little more than 1/8", it locks up completely. I had to take off the bushing, plug and spring and serious jiggle the thing to get it to unlock. With great force, it opened and ejected. I set the round aside and re-assembled the gun. I repeated this four times, same result each time. I took these four rounds and loaded them into the Kimber magazines, all four cycled with no problems. I loaded a magazine for the Para with WWB, cranked through about ten rounds, no problem.

So, I'm trying to figure out what the difference is. The para has a ramped barrel, where the Kimber doesn't. The Para is new, it only has a few hundred rounds through it. SO, what is it I'm doing wrong in the process, that I need to change? A good handload should crank through any gun like a new round, right?

[mljdeckard]

Oh, the bullets are 230 gr hornady XTP FMJs, with 6.0 grains of Unique, using RCBS carbide dies with the crimper/seating combination die.

[NeuseRvrRat]

did you pull the barrel out of each gun and try one of your handloaded rounds to see if it "plunks" into the chamber? folks round here call it the plunk test.

[mljdeckard]

I have a Wilson test gage I was using, A few of them were tight, but ok. Lemme look,

[rfwobbly]

All it takes to have that effect is as little as .001" difference. So...

► Your new barrel might be tighter than the others.

► Your sizing die might not be getting the cases as small as it used to.

[mljdeckard]

Ok. I tried it, and.....the chamber is tighter. So.....I need a little more crimp, right?

(And that Wilson test gage is full of crap. ;)

[NeuseRvrRat]

i doubt it has anything to do with crimp

what is your COAL?

[mljdeckard]

I spot checked them as I went, and just tried three, 1.255, consistently.

[mljdeckard]

A factory HST drops right in, these handloads won't go flush.

[MEHavey]

Your case mouth should be taper-squeezed to ~.470-.471 to
pass most plunk tests (the plunk gauge being the barrel)

[mljdeckard]

Ok, is that the interior of the case, or the exterior?

[Jim Watson]

In the barrel or in the gauge?

You might be buckling the case mouth trying to seat and crimp an uncannelured bullet in one step.

Tweak the seating die not to crimp.
Then take the decapping spindle out of the seating die and just barely bump the case mouth of a loaded round into the sizing ring, about half or one turn of the die threads worth. That will give a slight taper crimp.

[NeuseRvrRat]

exterior. i.e. outside diameter

see if your resized cases will plunk in your chamber w/o a bullet seated. just resize a case and then stick it in the chamber. report back.

[MEHavey]

When all the dust settles... regardless of brass brand or bullet/sizing diameter ... this is what you want:

http://i48.tinypic.com/be7xvr.jpg

[mljdeckard]

I'm not sure I have any re-sized that I didn't already bell. Most of them are .472. Is that a no-go?

[NeuseRvrRat]

just run the belled case back through the sizing die. takes 2 mins and the results might tell us something.

[MEHavey]

Most of them are .472. Is that a no-go?
If 0.472" passes the plunk test,then 0.472 (or just slightly less) is what you load for.
From that point on the calipers tell you if your set up is producing viable rounds,
and you don't need to "plunk" things again. :)

[mljdeckard]

Well, I will have to test the dies tomorrow night. But I'm still a little confused. How can it be a sizing problem if the crimping die squeezes it after?

[MEHavey]

Does 0.472 for your assembled rounds pass the plunk test?
Always?

Or do some hang up (even slightly)?
If so, taper crimp down to 0.470 and test again.



Postscript:
I'm assuming you are full length resizing all the way down to the die solidly meeting ram. That should not be the issue.
As far as belling goes, it should just barely enough that the bullet edge will enter the mouth instead of being shaved by it.

[Maj Dad]

I think your problems would go away with the use of a taper crimp die, assuming your sizer is properly sizing the cases. I used to have an occasional problem with rounds entering the chamber too far secondary to a slight roll crimp caused by my improper crimping. Taper crimp cured the problem and I use them on all my cases which headspace on the case mouth (45, 9mm etc).

[cfullgraf]

Well, I will have to test the dies tomorrow night. But I'm still a little confused. How can it be a sizing problem if the crimping die squeezes it after?

A crimp die only affects the case mouth while the resizing die resizes most of the body. (The Lee FCD is a different animal, it has a post loading resizing ring. Lots of different opinions on the value of the Lee FCD)

With 45 ACP, and most other semi-auto handgun cartridges, you only want to remove the belling of the case mouth. The case stops on the case mouth in the chamber, otherwise called, the case headspaces on the case mouth in the chamber.

If a roll crimp is used, it can apply too much crimp and bulge the case mouth. It is not impossible, but difficult to use a roll crimp properly with auto pistol cartridges. Fortunately, most die sets made today for auto pistol cartridges come with taper crimp seating dies. You should be able to verify that on the seat die or with the manufacturer's specifications for your die set.

If the case mouth belling is not adequately removed, it can restrict the chambering of a round.

It is possible to get a combination of dies and chambers where the die is at the large side of the tolerances and the chamber is at the small side tolerances and chambering problem can occur. Not very common but it can happen. Check the chambering of a few resized case, but before expanding the case mouth. That will be a quick and dirty check to see if your resizing die is resizing the case enough.

You pistol barrel is the best chamber gauge out there for rounds to be used in that pistol.

[MrCountyCop]

Had the same problem with one of my 45's. I had to crimp them to .469 to get them to feed every time. The wilson gage is good to have and use and the plunk on the gage is kinda just a guide but it works for me.

[mljdeckard]

I am using a taper crimp die. I'll look at this stuff tonight.

[JRadice45]

Deckard,
I suggest you leave your dies set the way they are for now, force an assembled bullet / case into your para chamber and remove. Look for scratches on the bullet, around the shoulder area. I was running into problems using a 200 gr plated hp that had a truncated cone shape. What was happening was that I was loading them too long and the bearing surface of the bullet was engaging the rifling before the round was completely seated. All it took was to start from scratch and work up from the min powder charge with the bullet seated deeper into the case. I did not have to change crimp.

[rcmodel]

What JRadice45 said.

This is a simple OAL problem that has nothing to do with crimp.

1.255" is too long for any Hornady bullet.
The bullet is hitting the rifling leade.

Hornady suggests 1.230", and you may have to go shorter then that in some barrels.

Keep seating shorter and doing the "plunk test" until they plunk in the chamber and fall back out on their own.

Anyway, adjust your taper crimp to measure .470" and it will be just like factory ammo.

But again, that isn't your problem, length is.

rc

[gamestalker]

Since you are not loading lead or non jacketed bullets, back your seating die out to the point it is not crimping at all. Then chamfer the inside of the case mouth slightly to allow the bullets to seat smoothly rather than belling it, then seat the bullets to an OAL that consistently clears the lands, cycles and fits the magazine.

It is not necessary to utilize a crimp with jacketed bullets for auto laoding actions, this will also provide maximum neck tension. I have been seating all my auto loading handgun cartridges like this for decades with no probnlems. FYI, for jacketed bullets and auto loading actions the crimp is not intended for, nor does it produce neck tension. The crimp on these cartridges is only for the purpose of closing the bell of the mouth back to it's original diameter.

GS