[Nematocyst]

After a lot of reading for weeks about sharpening with sandpaper/emery cloth,
and being temporarily too poor to invest in good ceramic (but soon),
today I went to both local hardware stores seeking sand.

My research has suggested that I start with 400, then go to 1200.
So, I sought those grits. (I grew up in the south, so "grits" has multiple meanings.)

At the locally owned - which I want to support -
I the finest was 400. I picked up a couple of sheets. Right: sheets.

Then I went to the big box hardware up the hill by the Interstate.
There, the finest was 600, and it was only available in a package.
I bought a package. It has a purple color.

I brought them home, ate dinner, cut one sheet of each into fourths,
and started sharpening my Spyderco Manix 2. It's my EDC
(but soon to be replaced as EDC (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=669653); will become a backup),
and has always had a good edge, but not great.
(Blame it on my stone technique; I'm learning.)

But after < 10 min work with the sand,
this Manix has the - THE - sharpest blade
since it came out of the box two years ago.

I'm NOT suggesting that
sand paper is the best way to sharpen.

I'm acknowledging that I finally understand grits,
and why starting rougher than the stone
and working finer is important.

[hso]

It is very important to put the paper on a stable surface that is flat and smooth.

[Nematocyst]

^ Totally agree. Thanks for pointing that out.

I put mine on my desk top, right on the edge -
bent the paper over the edge -
just for starters, to try it out.

I'm reading about other ways to make
a block with wood or - better - glass.

I am very open to tutoring.

[jbkebert]

Auto parts stores that sell automotive paints typically have a great selection of fine grit sandpapers. Also quality paint stores will have a better selection than a box store.

I picked up a couple sheets of 4000 grit to gently buff a onyx panel. Its about as rough as a kleenex. About $2.50 a sheet at Napa auto parts about 6.25 a sheet at a paint store.

[Nematocyst]

^ Excellent suggestion, JB.

Don't know why I didn't think of that.

[hso]

A table or desk isn't a good choice.

Try to find a piece of float glass or a flat die block. A chunk of granite counter top or composite like synthetic granite is a good choice.

The table/desk/etc. just isn't flat and level enough.

Alternately, you could work the edge into a convex using leather or high density rubber balsa wood and strop instead of using the paper like a stone.

A pawn/junk shop palm sander that you can strip the mounting backing off makes for a good plate.

[Nematocyst]

Repeating from post 3, with emphasis.

I put mine on my desk top, right on the edge -
bent the paper over the edge -
just for starters, to try it out.

I'm reading about other ways to make
a block with wood or - better - glass.

Yes, we're on the same page.

[kBob]

Yep, auto parts places in the paint section and if you were raised in the south you gotta go to NAPA.

If there is a hobby shop locally that sells Cub Scout "Pinewood Derby" supplies they some times have packets with small sheets of paper about 4"x4" of various grits from "pretty rough" to "are you sure this is sand paper" also such packets of mini sheets show up wherever plastic models are sold as well. More expensive for what you get than big sheets at the auto store, but a good sample to play with.

Keep in mind that perfect is the enemy of good enough..... and good enough is good enough. Get'er done.

-kBob

[sniperlongshot]

the beveled edge of your car window can do a nice job also

[Nematocyst]

Keep in mind that perfect is the enemy of good enough.

I like that.

There's no NAPA in this city, but there's an AutoZone
on the other side of town where I'll be on Monday.

Sniper, I don't own a car right now,
but I'll check my bicycle window. :D

It's an interesting suggestion, though. I'll file that one.

[Jason_G]

FWIW, if you're going to go the sandpaper route, I found that it helps prevent scratches and imperfections in the edge if you at most double the grit count as you move up (at least IME). For example, maybe start with something around 400, then something close to 800, then 1600 (I've never seen a 1600 grit, so you'd likely go to 1500 here). You can go more gradually than that, but double is the max I will jump as I transition up. That's not to say that you can't go from 400 to 1500 or so, but this gradual approach to sanding makes less scratches for me, and is also a little faster (maybe not that noticeable on the tiny area of a small knife edge, but definitely on edges of bigger blades or larger flat areas that need polishing/refinishing). That's counter-intuitive to most people. Folks tend to think that they're doing more work faster if they jump to a much higher grit, but if they want the scratches out, they're making much more work for themselves. Once you start approaching 2000, you're basically working with a mirror edge (which may or may not be sharp, depending on your technique). I sand both sides equally, working up to the finest grit I want to use, and then with the final grit, I make a burr all along the edge of one side, then remove it by sanding the other side. It usually doesn't take much to get the burr off, so I try to use a light touch. After that, I strop on leather or cardboard.

Sandpaper is a totally legit way of sharpening, although I use stones much more often. Sandpaper will produce a very sharp edge if done properly.


Jason

[Nematocyst]

Sounds reasonable to me, Jason. I can understand the logic there.

I read something interesting last night on a sharpening page - bookmarked somewhere - in which a guy sharpened his short blade differentially, with finer grit at the tip for a more polished edge, but with a courser grit on the rear half of the blade, to leave the edge a bit more coarse. His argument - based ostensibly in his experience - is that he uses the rear (straighter edge, less belly) to slice through things, and found that easier if it wasn't as polished.

I think I'm representing his argument correctly, but could check if this is of interest.

[LeonCarr]

It is amazing the grits of sandpaper you can find if you look around. A buddy of mine who was a Weapons Troop (Loads Ordnance/Guns on Aircraft) in the Air Force had a bunch of what looked like brown wrapping paper lying all over his barn/shop. I asked what all of this paper was and he said its not paper, its 8000 grit sandpaper used for cleaning the cockpit glass on F-16s. Great for final polishing.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[zhyla]

I do something like 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1200, 2000, and then some honing paper. The lower grits are skipped depending on blade condition.

This is how I sharpen things where sharpness actually matters (straight razor, plane irons). If done correctly you'll end up with a mirror finish and a killer edge. Careful with your angles though, you want to mimic the original bevel unless you really know what you're doing.

[Jason_G]

I read something interesting last night on a sharpening page - bookmarked somewhere - in which a guy sharpened his short blade differentially, with finer grit at the tip for a more polished edge, but with a courser grit on the rear half of the blade, to leave the edge a bit more coarse. His argument - based ostensibly in his experience - is that he uses the rear (straighter edge, less belly) to slice through things, and found that easier if it wasn't as polished.

Yeah, that's not too too uncommon. The scratches from the coarser sandpaper will act like little micro-serrations if done well. I've never had any luck with that approach. It seems like it just quickly turns into a mediocre edge for me when it gets used. Of course, I've honestly never given it too much of a chance, either, since I prefer a polished edge anyway. YMMV. It's definitely worth trying out if you think it might be of benefit to you. I can see the appeal if having to cut through certain tough materials like plastic, where some tooth on the edge would be of use. I haven't found a way to make that "toothiness" last very long though. Could just be me though.

It is amazing the grits of sandpaper you can find if you look around. A buddy of mine who was a Weapons Troop (Loads Ordnance/Guns on Aircraft) in the Air Force had a bunch of what looked like brown wrapping paper lying all over his barn/shop. I asked what all of this paper was for and he said its not paper, its 8000 grit sandpaper used for cleaning the cockpit glass on F-16s. Great for final polishing.


Yes. They also make lapping films for different uses, including fiber optic line repair, that get up to some ridiculously high grits (over 10,000), although they tend to start measuring the grit size itself in micrometers, rather than the standard grit count like you see on sandpaper. At least I believe that's the convention. There are also Japanese water stones that go up above 10,000 as well (pricey).


Jason

[ugaarguy]

Yes. They also make lapping films for different uses, including fiber optic line repair, that get up to some ridiculously high grits (over 10,000), although they tend to start measuring the grit size itself in micrometers, rather than the standard grit count like you see on sandpaper. At least I believe that's the convention. There are also Japanese water stones that go up above 10,000 as well (pricey).
I actually started researching this when I was looking at additional stones and micro diamond paste strops for a Wicked Edge sharpener. Grit sizes vary from standard to standard, and there are several standards. A quick comparison is that the 6.5-7 micron size equates to a JIS (Japanese) 2000 grit, FEPA-F (one of several European standards0 800 grit, and ANSI (one of several American standards) 1000 grit.

Here are several links:
http://www.reade.com/resources/particle-measurement/1585-international-sieve-chart-micropowder-grit-chart-astm-ansi-jis-bsi-afnor-din-tyler-uss-
http://www.washingtonmills.no/products/grit-sizes.html
http://www.uama.org/Abrasives101/101Standards.html
http://www.fine-tools.com/G10019.htm

Enjoy deciphering all that. :evil:

[Jason_G]

I wonder if the conversions between standards are linear?


Jason

[hso]

Take a look at the posts from The Tourist here on sharpening.

A dedicated sharpener, he used a range of materials and grit to sharpen based on the application.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

His argument - based ostensibly in his experience - is that he uses the rear (straighter edge, less belly) to slice through things, and found that easier if it wasn't as polished.

The only place I've had much luck with that myself is cutting line. By and large, it seems like a polished edge works better, though it will occasionally want to slide off some surfaces instead of bite.

[blindhari]

Hello nematocyst,
When I started carving I needed to be able to sharpen and touch up tools and knives. I did not have a lot of money but my brother in law had a cabinet shop. What we did was utilise sink cut outs that are normaly thrown away. We found some flat ones in fake marble, checked them with a machinists level, then cut into size for a 1/2 sheet of sand paper. A little spray on glue with a heavy weight made a decent sanding block. Then we drilled each one to take a 1/2" bolt and used a wing nut to hold it to my bench. In this manner I could change paper by just bolting down a different sanding block. Total cost, less than twenty bucks and I can put a mirror edge on anything from an axehead to Twin Cherries carvers.

blindhari

If you really want serious sharp go to a lapidary, rock, shop and do this with cerium oxide and a tight stretched piece of leather. As iremmeber cerium oxide is around 25000 grit

[conw]

How's the edge holding up on the sandpaper sharpened manix? I ask because I've seen knives get pretty sharp with an edge that wouldn't last if it wasn't held at a consistent angle. Imagine an overly obtuse rounded bevel with just barely enough meeting at the very edge to last a bit. It looks and feels sharp but doesn't last long.

You see this a lot with novice sharpeners (I am one sometimes :)).

As for sandpaper, it works well. The semi convex strategy hso mentioned is the most expedient. You'll find the sandpaper sharpens aggressively but doesn't have a long life compared to any other sharpening media.

[Nematocyst]

Guys, thanks much for continuing to add advice and suggestions.

I'm a little behind reading here, let alone putting this into action, because my new ESEE 3 arrived yesterday (go here, scroll to post 21 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=669653); I'll be spending extra time in that thread for the next week or so), so I'm kinda pre-occupied. :rolleyes:

Fortunately, it came out of the bag very sharp, so I won't need to touch it up for a few days, until after I get to know its edge.

[Deltaboy]

Shoot I have used a 4 way emery board I grabbed on day at a Sally's Beauty Supply Store.

[Zeke/PA]

Believe it or not, in the past I've touched up a filet knife using one of the wife's emory boards while surf fishing.
Since then I make sure that I have a ceramic stick in my surf fishing gear.

[Nematocyst]

Zeke, which ceramic rod, please? I want one of those in my basic portable sharpening kit along with sandpaper. (I'll probably start a different thread on V-sticks, but would enjoy knowing which portable stick you use.)

[Jason_G]

Believe it or not, in the past I've touched up a filet knife using one of the wife's emory boards while surf fishing.

Yeah, there's a lot of makeshift abrasives that can be used in a pinch. The unglazed bottom of your favorite coffee mug can work, too. I think someone already mentioned the frosted edge of a car window. You can strop on cotton clothing, too, if you're so inclined.

Jason

[Nematocyst]

I picked up some 1000 grit sandpaper today at Autozone. They had higher grits - 1500 to 3000 - but it comes in packets, and I'm short on cash (I just bought an Izula 2 last night; it's on the way !!!!!!!!), so I just went with some 1000 to start.

That gives me three grits to practice on: 400, 600 and 1000. I want next to find some suitable "block" material and glue it. (I have some ideas, but it'll take a few days.)

I'll keep you posted.

[19-3Ben]

I asked what all of this paper was and he said its not paper, its 8000 grit sandpaper used for cleaning the cockpit glass on F-16s. Great for final polishing.

When I touch up my straight razor I use a Norton Waterstone that is 4000 grit on one side and 8000 grit on the other. The edge of that blade has a mirror shine to it. Good thing too! That's the LAST cutting tool you'd want to slip with!

[Nematocyst]

Good to 'see' you, Ben.

Wow. 8000.

[Zeke/PA]

Nematocyst,
The Ceramic rod that I have is an El Cheepo that I picked up at a local kitchen store for around five bucks.
Dosen't do too bad for an occasional touch up.
For sharpening with "crotch sticks" my Sharpmaker is hard to beat.

[Hunter125]

My dad bought a Razor Edge system from these guys: http://www.razoredgesystems.com/. They advocate a steeper (sharper) angle blade with a few passes with a shallower (less Sharp) angle right on the blade edge. The second edge is put on with <10 passes with a very fine grit after the sharper edge is finished. I'm talking like a 19-23 degree for the upper part and a 25-30 degree for the edge. The result is an edge that generally acts like a sharper angle, but holds the edge longer like the shallower angle. I have used this idea for years now and it really works. The edge holds much longer than a single Sharp angle.

If you are going to go the sandpaper route I have a suggestion. Get a piece of glass, a piece of wood, and a piece of rubber cut the same size. Then cut your sandpaper about 2 inches longer, same width.
Put down the wood, rubber next, then glass. Tack or staple the sandpaper to one end of the wood, pull it tight, and tack the paper to the other side. You might knock the edges of the glass with sand paper as well so it won't cut your sandpaper.

Once you have some more cash I would highly suggest the Razor Edge or similar system where it holds the angle for you. No matter how good you are, a clamp will be better.

[Nematocyst]

Hunter, hang out here, please.

I understand your second paragraph.
Good description. Will do.

[Jason_G]

Once you have some more cash I would highly suggest the Razor Edge or similar system where it holds the angle for you. No matter how good you are, a clamp will be better.

I've not used a Razor Edge, but be aware that those types of systems (in general, anyway) will change the angle of the grind out toward the tip if you don't readjust the clamp as you move towards the end of the blade. Again, not sure if it is the case with this particular system, but look out for that just in case.


Jason

[Nematocyst]

Thanks, Jason.

[Jason_G]

Actually, my last post mightn't apply here. I just looked at the link Hunter provided, and that is not at all the system I was picturing. I was thinking that the Razor Edge was similar to a Lansky, but it doesn't appear to be so. A "nevermind" might be in order here.

Looks almost like a planer blade sharpening jig.


Jason

[Nematocyst]

Regardless, the key word is "angle".

[Hunter125]

Jason, with the Razor Edge there are very detailed instructions (and a dvd I think) on where to place the clamps to keep that from happening.

There was a whole lot more to my post, apparently it didn't take. The gist is that a steeper angle with a shallower edge with make the blade act like a sharper edge, but not lose the edge so fast. The second (shallower) edge is only put on after a full bur is acheived for the length of the blade. The shallow edge is put on with a very fine grit and <10 strokes/side.

If you are going the sandpaper route here is a suggestion. Get a piece of wood, glass, and rubber all the same size. Cut your SP 2 inches longer, same width. Stack wood first, then rubber, then glass. Knock off the edges of the glass with the SP first so you don't cut the SP when you put it on. Then tack one end of the SP to the wood, pull it tight over the whole thing, tack the other end.

The glass gives you a flat surface, the rubber gives you tension and helps keep any imperfections in the wood from affecting or breaking the glass.

This will work, but I highly suggest something like the Razor Edge or similar system with a clamp to keep the edge consistent.

[Jason_G]

Jason, with the Razor Edge there are very detailed instructions (and a dvd I think) on where to place the clamps to keep that from happening.

There was a whole lot more to my post, apparently it didn't take.

:confused:

I'm not sure what part you think didn't take.


Jason

[Hunter125]

That's because the same thing apparently happened again. I will have to do it from a computer, apparently my phone isn't cutting it.

[Hunter125]

Here is what I meant to post. Apparently either Tapatalk is screwed up, or I took too long typing it.

Jason, with the Razor Edge there are very detailed instructions (and a dvd I think) on where to place the clamps to keep that from happening.

There was a whole lot more to my post, apparently it didn't take. The gist is that a steeper angle with a shallower edge with make the blade act like a sharper edge, but not lose the edge so fast. The second (shallower) edge is only put on after a full bur is acheived for the length of the blade. The shallow edge is put on with a very fine grit and <10 strokes/side.

If you are going the sandpaper route here is a suggestion. Get a piece of wood, glass, and rubber all the same size. Cut your SP 2 inches longer, same width. Stack wood first, then rubber, then glass. Knock off the edges of the glass with the SP first so you don't cut the SP when you put it on. Then tack one end of the SP to the wood, pull it tight over the whole thing, tack the other end.

The glass gives you a flat surface, the rubber gives you tension and helps keep any imperfections in the wood from affecting or breaking the glass.

This will work, but I highly suggest something like the Razor Edge or similar system with a clamp to keep the edge consistent when you have the cash available.

I have a regular Lansky system that I have gotten some diamond replacement hones. I use it to do this same double edge idea and it works pretty well. I don't know much about the knives you mentioned buying, but I get the idea they are pretty high end knives. My own preference would be to match it with a sharpening system that will allow a good consistent angle. At least more consistent than I can be without it, and I am pretty practiced at it.

[Hunter125]

Wow, I'm not sure what happened. I looked at the all my posts on my phone and they were only about two sentences long. Sorry for double posting some of that.

[Wildcat_Charlie]

Does anyone else use a belt sander to sharpen knives? I use one on a S30V knife and it works great. I am using 600 grit belts that I ordered on the net but I could have bought 8000 grit belts if I wanted. I figured it would take too long to sharpen a hard steel knife with something that fine. But turned out I can sharpen my Kershaw in about 10 seconds with the 600 grit. I practiced on some cheap knives before I ever worked on a good knife so I know that it's possible to ruin the temper on a blade real quick if the blade isn't good to start with or if I leave the best running against the blade for very long at all. But I was able to get a super sharp edge on a knife that I had a lot of trouble sharpening to a really sharp edge before.

[Jason_G]

Does anyone else use a belt sander to sharpen knives?

I use a belt sander occasionally, but mostly just to set a bevel. I feel like I have better control free hand with stones. Especially with a deeply curved or recurved belly. Not to mention, I rarely order belts finer than 400 grit. I have a 4x36 sander, and most of the better abrasive belts for knife making and sharpening come in 2x72. There are some really nice super high grit belts, and cork belts, etc, out there for that purpose. Be careful around the edge of those thin sheet belts. They can cut your finger to the bone if you're careless, and running at a high enough rpm. Think paper cut from hell.


Jason

[Hunter125]

Just a word of warning, if you are new to sharpening blades you may want to stay away from any kind of motorized sharpening apparatus until you get the feel of it. You at least might want to practice on some cheapo knives first.

[MikeJackmin]

I use a sheet of 800 grit, placed on two or three sheets of ordinary printer paper, place on my kitchen countertop. Light stropping motion, maybe ten or twenty strokes per side. No muss, no fuss, leaves an edge I'm perfectly happy with.

One nice tip is to darken the edge of your knife with a black sharpie. The sandpaper will take the ink off and show you exactly where the action is happening. It's surprisingly easy to miss the edge, and have your "sharpening" happen higher up on the bevel.

[Jason_G]

One nice tip is to darken the edge of your knife with a black sharpie. The sandpaper will take the ink off and show you exactly where the action is happening. It's surprisingly easy to miss the edge, and have your "sharpening" happen higher up on the bevel.

Yes, I've used a magic marker a time or two. A Sharpie or some Dykem certainly can't hurt.


Jason

[StrawHat]

Do a internet search for Scary Sharp and read about how they use wet and dry paper for sharpening. I use a similar method when folks bring me chisels or plane irons to be sharpened.

Steve Bottorff has writen a book called "Sharpening Made Easy" and it is quite helpful to those starting out and quite informative to those who have been doing it for a while.

I have used or still use a variety of things to get the job done. Belt sanders and electric wheels don't get used much but they are still in my arsenal. Mostly it is a foot powered grinder, files, flat stones and fixed strops that I rely on to ply my trade. The key to any style of sharpening is to maintain a consistant angle, from the bolster to the tip. Once you get the hang of that, the rest is easy.

[Nematocyst]

Mike and Straw, welcome to our discussion.

Excellent ideas.

[Nematocyst]

I discovered a new twist to sand paper sharpening yesterday.

I wrapped sandpaper - first 400, 600, then 1000 -
around my short stick (1" diameter) and
dragged blades across at a tangent.

As a result, all of my blades are
sharper now than in the past.

It's kind of like I created
a poor man's ceramic stick.

It's all about the 'tangent' angle,
keeping the blade edge on the tangent,
which is SO much easier to see on a cylinder
than on a horizontal block. That's what did it for me.

The tangent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent).

Nem

[DylNger]

The sandpaper I like to use comes in belt format and fits a belt sander. It's possible to order about any grit you want and you can get lots of different materials that get the paper to the desired grit other than just plain sand.

I have a Kershaw Blur with S30V steel. I had a heck of a time getting a real top notch edge on that blade even though it is cut at an angle that is normally good to work with. I tried every method I ever use and the best I could do was ok but certainly far from being as sharp as a lot of knives I've got right out of the box.

Then I bought a belt sander from Harbor Freight which set me back about $40. I bought some belts at HF but none of them really got as fine as a good edge needs. I worked with what I had on other knives just to learn a few things like how fast would I burn up the temper on various types of steel. I didn't use any of my good knives of course. I just buy old stuff at the flea market to practice on plus I work on old knives I gave up on a long time ago because the method I was using just wouldn't get them sharp any longer.

I learned pretty quick I needed a fine grit to keep from ruining the temper on my Kershaw. So I bought some 1000 grit belts. I knew it wasn't a complicated blade angle (multiple angles, etc.) so I wasn't too worried. I started out with a 3 second grind. Wow! I made that knife far sharper in 3 seconds than it had ever been before. I left it that way for a good while and I learned some more through practice on other blades. Then I got brave and tried a 10 second grind with 5 seconds on each side. I knew I had a rolled edge on the off side from my 3 second grind. So I thought 5 seconds with more work on the point and another 5 seconds on the back side.

I'm here to tell you this knife is as sharp as any knife I've ever seen now. And S30V is notoriously hard to sharpen really well. The thing will send arm hair flying in all directions and it will shave my arm bald in about 3 strokes for every spot. It's freaky sharp in fact. And being S30V it's going to stay sharp like that until I put it through a lot of abuse or show off too much slicing up newspapers.

Some knives won't work well at all on the belt sander. They were cut to have a special edge from the factory like a convex edge (continuously gets a steeper edge). I don't have the best eyes in the world so maybe that isn't even the problem. It could be that there's some really odd edge on the blade (like a recurve blade). I actually wonder if the belt actually gives me a convex edge because of the way it curves when you apply even a little pressure from the blade. The belt gives slightly which could actually result in putting a convex edge on a blade. I'm really not all that good about figuring out these things. My methods are generally "practice makes perfect" and "if you screw up just buy another one". I'm willing to take a chance because I want a sharp blade though. They just work way better. And I have certainly put a sharper edge on the Kershaw but I've also ruined some cheap steel knives because the temper just wasn't there.

BTW I buy my belts from True Grit Inc.. (http://trugrit.com/) I've only had to buy belts the one time after buying some the day I bought the sander. The ones I bought worked out really well. They were made of standard sand type material. True Grit sells a lot of abrasive stuff too. It might be possible to find all sorts of sharpening supplies there.