Calling all Mosin ID experts!


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fireman 9731
July 28, 2012, 12:22 AM
What the heck do I have here? I picked it up at the gun shop today to use as the donor for my HK-59 machine gun barrel build. I figured it had already been bubba'ed a little, had a bent bolt, and a very smooth action and great trigger, why not?

The pictures are of the dissembled rifle of course.

Its a 1945 Izzy M-44.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/396088_10100216022296863_842747785_n.jpg

With what looks like an original bent bolt.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/418238_10100216022706043_533624082_n.jpg

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s720x720/557377_10100216022805843_532572844_n.jpg

And here is the kicker...

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/s720x720/555160_10100216025929583_1498650578_n.jpg

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/387082_10100216023279893_320659308_n.jpg

7.62x54R.net says that is a Yugoslavian refurb mark on the stock. No stock escutcheons. It has obviously been re-finished (I think).

The bore is mirror bright. Best bore I have ever seen on a Mosin. It was missing the rear sight, so I figured somebody had a scope mount on there before.

I paid $150 out the door. I figured with an already bent bolt, recoil pad, decent stock, SMOOTH action, and good trigger(Someone has had to of gone over it, there is no play in it) it was worth it. Plus I plan on selling the barrel and bayonet once I get my project done.

So does anybody have any idea what this mutt is? Or is it just a mutt? Izzy receiver and barrel, sniper bolt, and Yugo stock?

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LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
July 28, 2012, 12:37 AM
I would say a mutt, but a good looking mutt. Going to be working on a project myself here, soon.

ETA: That bold doesn't look like any Russian bolt that I've seen, what with the SN on the cocking piece and all. That's curious.

fireman 9731
July 28, 2012, 12:42 AM
yeah, the bolt is well worn finish wise. A rougher texture than any of my 3 other Mosins, almost like it has been sand blasted or something.

One_Jackal
July 28, 2012, 12:48 AM
It appears to be a plain jane Mosin-Nagant M91/30. The sniper model has a hexagonal receiver and a laminated stock.

fireman 9731
July 28, 2012, 12:56 AM
91/30's don't have side folding bayonets, or bent bolts. And are about a foot longer.

meanmrmustard
July 28, 2012, 12:58 AM
Looks to have been a project rifle. Stock looks amazing, which to me screams refinish.

TurtlePhish
July 28, 2012, 01:39 AM
Bent bolt must have come off of a 91/30 sniper. Cocking piece definitely looks like older manufacture, and the SN on it is unusual. Also no Soviet arsenal stamp on the upper surface.

Does anyone know if any of the Westinghouse, Remington, or Chatellerault productions were numbered like that?

Also take note of the SN crossed out on the side of the bolt body- unusual location.

The rifle itself seems like it's just an M44, but that bolt assembly has history.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
July 28, 2012, 04:06 AM
Agreed, TP. (LOL) It was probably after-arsenal, when they came to our markets, because the Russians and AFAIK, the Yugos as well, restored the rifles to near-new conditions.


~On The Road Again...~

fireman 9731
July 28, 2012, 09:43 AM
I didnt know of any Yugo Mosins? Where they captures? And yes, the receiver and barrel are pretty much standard M-44, but the stock and the bolt are what is throwing me off.

The cocking serrations on the back of the bolt are much less defined than my other Mosins, and they only go around about two thirds of the way, the bottom is beveled smooth. The numbers on it look very western to me.

ThorinNNY
July 28, 2012, 10:29 AM
Nicely done modification of a rifle that is not easy to sporterize.

TurtlePhish
July 28, 2012, 01:46 PM
The cocking serrations on the back of the bolt are much less defined than my other Mosins, and they only go around about two thirds of the way, the bottom is beveled smooth. The numbers on it look very western to me.


I think it's one of the French or American manufactures. Do you think you could disassemble the bolt and take pictures of any stamps you find on it?

Shadow 7D
July 28, 2012, 02:06 PM
it's a Westinghouse, I do believe, look in the otherside, there probably is a H with an arrow off the middle bar, but yeah, the M is a US mark.

fireman 9731
July 28, 2012, 02:31 PM
There is what looks like a Pi symbol right in front of the bolt handle, and then on the bolt heard there is a circled C on one side and a circled L on the other.

Maybe a circled (+) mark (or Izzy bow and arrow?) on the Wiggly slotted piece on the bottom of the bolt. I don't know what that is called!

I don't see any other markings on it anywhere other than those. I can disassemble it if you want.

Would they of made sniper bolts out of Westinghouses?

And 7.62x54r.net says that the stock marking is a Yugo refurb mark. The picture they have says it was on a Russian sniper stock. Any coincidence that I have a sniper bolt and (maybe) sniper stock? On an m-44?

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
July 28, 2012, 03:21 PM
it's a Westinghouse, I do believe, look in the otherside, there probably is a H with an arrow off the middle bar, but yeah, the M is a US mark.

My Izzy 44 has an M on it.

ETA: There is no "M" in that location on my bolt.


~On The Road Again...~

Sergei Mosin
July 28, 2012, 05:58 PM
The bolt is much older than the rest of the rifle and has probably been to Finland. The bolt body is not from an original sniper but was bent later on, probably by Bubba (albeit a nicer job than most I've seen.) What appears to be an "M" may be a well-worn New England Westinghouse marking. The remains of a struck-through serial number can be seen on the bolt body, which is typical of Finnish rifles.

The cocking piece is the really interesting bit; it's the early type and as it has a serial number on it, it is from either early Russian production or the WWI Remington contract. Not very common any more but another point in favor of the bolt being off a Finnish rifle.

It looks like you have somebody else's project rifle - a Soviet barreled action that probably came in from the Balkans (I don't see any Soviet refurb marks), a Soviet stock that was refurbished in Yugoslavia and badly refinished in this country, and a bolt off a Finnish rifle that was bent in this country.

fireman 9731
July 28, 2012, 07:28 PM
I dunno about the bolt... The "M" is very crisp and clear. Its more than just a standard bolt with the handle bent. It looks like it was made that way. The "M" is right where you would have to do work to bend it. Like you said, If it was done in the US, it was done VERY well.

If it is a Finn bolt then that makes sense why its so smooth. Smooth and light effort to work the action.

Where would somebody get a bolt like this anyway? The face had a little soot around the edges, but no erosion and is in too good of shape to have come off of a junk gun that somebody would sell for parts....

joeq
July 28, 2012, 07:56 PM
That stock is really good looking.

macadore
July 28, 2012, 08:48 PM
it's a Westinghouse, I do believe, look in the otherside, there probably is a H with an arrow off the middle bar, but yeah, the M is a US mark.
I'm pretty sure Westinghouse was long out of the Mosin–Nagant business by the beginning of WWII and Westinghouse never made an M44. the rifle began live as a plain jane 1945 Izzy M-44. If the serial number on the bolt matches the one on the receiver, then the bolt handle has been bent down to accommodate a scope. If the serial number does not match the receiver then it's a replacement bolt. The stock does not look like the Russian arctic birch stock, but it could be. I don't believe it's a laminated stock either. The folks here http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?3-The-Collector-s-Forum-Mosin-Nagant-HQ can tell you more than any place I know.

Sergei Mosin
July 28, 2012, 09:22 PM
I dunno about the bolt... The "M" is very crisp and clear. Its more than just a standard bolt with the handle bent. It looks like it was made that way. The "M" is right where you would have to do work to bend it. Like you said, If it was done in the US, it was done VERY well.

There's a fellow who trades under the name Jim the Boltman who does very good work. There's a pretty good chance that that bolt is his work. It's very unlikely that it came from a true Mosin sniper; the bolt body is the older type that predates Mosin sniper rifles and it has the struck-through serial that usually indicates Finnish use; Finland had very few scoped Mosins and those bolts generally would have stayed with the rifles they were captured with or used on.

If it is a Finn bolt then that makes sense why its so smooth. Smooth and light effort to work the action.

Probably has more to do with having been thoroughly cleaned and properly lubricated than anything the Finns did. Sticky bolt syndrome is usually caused by excess cosmoline.

Where would somebody get a bolt like this anyway? The face had a little soot around the edges, but no erosion and is in too good of shape to have come off of a junk gun that somebody would sell for parts....

No telling where he got it. Could have been from a box of parts, could have been from a Finnish Mosin that the original owner chopped up, could have been he grabbed the wrong bolt when he went to sell this rifle, could have been something else entirely.

fireman 9731
July 28, 2012, 10:11 PM
Hmmm...

Well I have a date with a new gunsmith tomorrow. I'll see what he thinks about a scope mount and if I need to have the barrel turned down.

Its just odd that it has the mix of parts that it does...

When I'm done with it will be ugly. I plan on keeping the original stock but cutting down so the barrel fits, adding an AK pistol grip and a bi-pod. I'm not sure on what scope yet.

caribou
July 29, 2012, 03:26 AM
The cocking knob on the bolt is either French or Remington or New England Westinghouse because the serial number at the time of manufacture is stamped on the cocking knobs of those made in the USA. France, in the frst 4 years of Mosin Manufacture also serial the cocking knob to the rest of the rifle.

Its not been to Finnland as the date on it is 1945, and Finland ceased hostilitys with the Soviet Union in late 1944.

Its Bubba and a mix match arsenal referrb.

Most Soviet Sniper rifles were of round reviver type, especcially common are 1943-1944 made at Isvehsk. The last 'Hex' reciverd Mosin's were made in 1936.

No M-44's were ever made with a scope or bent bolt.

What you have is a "fun gun", with a bayonet ( I see the tip folded there)

Shoot it, clean it, do it again, its all fun.

fireman 9731
July 29, 2012, 12:13 PM
I think it was consensus that the bolt had been to Finland, not the rest of the rifle. At some point it got bent, and ended up on a standard M-44 over here.

caribou
July 29, 2012, 08:30 PM
I doubt the bolt has been to Finland, I think it was most likely bent here in the US and assembled here, with parts, commonly bought on internet. Mixmatch happend where ever Mosin Nagants were issued and maintained. The Finns would have renumberd the bolt on the handle knob, regardlesss.
The Finns reused as much of a Mosin as possible, but Sako also made the bolt and various parts, just not the recivers. A 'Gear'd S" Sako stamp would be there.
Romainia and the Soviets rebuilt many a Mosin after WWII, Yougoslavia stored then traded away their Mosins.

fireman 9731
July 29, 2012, 11:21 PM
Well the gunsmith today didn't have any luck parting the barrel and receiver. He didn't have an action wrench. So it's time to find another smith or just buy a stripped receiver for 30 bucks online.

caribou
July 30, 2012, 01:54 AM
What is interesting is that the trangle mark was used on Yugoslav Mosin Nagant Sniper rifles.
Could be that Bubba, in all his wisdom, took a perfectly rare and very valuable Yugo Sniper and cut the stock to fit a 50$ M-44 barreled action, with the addition of moveing the bolt body (where the bolt handle is mounted) to the M-44 reciver for something "Handy" with a bayonett....... the world will never know.....

Shadow 7D
July 30, 2012, 02:20 PM
Lets not forget, MOSINS were one of the first 'new surplus' guns of the modern era,
see the commies tool over russian, and the US companies wouldn't send what the Czar
which meant that many were left in the US

also, many countries made little to no effort to keep a gun '100%'
I have a westinghouse head on a Tika and Izzy marked bolt body with...
point is, pretty much every mosin is a mix master.

fireman 9731
July 31, 2012, 05:11 PM
I ended up making a relief cut around the barrel to part it and the receiver. I hated to do it to a good barrel but I think a good smith could make a collar to fit the cut part and it may have some more life left in it.

Anyway, its all back at the gunsmith now and it should be done by the end of the week!

I'll start a new thread for the final product, but thanks for all the info! This beast will certainly be unique!

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