[EnglishmanInArizona]

Apologies for a relatively ugly question.

What length of blade is considered a reasonable minimum for reaching the kidneys, from behind?

I'm aware that a blade can penetrate deeper than it's length due to compression, but I would rather leave that out of things as too variable.

[highorder]

I think that's outside the scope of our forum.

A quick google human body will answer your questions.

[Texan Scott]

hmmm... well, it's a non-firearms WEAPON, i suppose... if we can discuss shooting people in the context of guns, i'm not sure why stabbing (in the context of knives) is off limits.
The answer to your question is probably a) depends on the person, b) depends on what they're wearing, c) keep in mind you need to not only reach the kidney, but through it, d) width of the blade is as important as length, e) 5 inches. (LOL, thats a wag... but a 5-inch knife is not a small knife.) and finally f) ummm.... why do you ask?

[Owen Sparks]

They are not very deep at all, just under the 11th and 12th ribs.

[EnglishmanInArizona]

Well, to justify the question - the kidneys are a particularly good target for a rapid stop with a blade. Fighting within any system that emphasizes movement off the opponent's line of attack gives a reasonable probability of rear targets being open. Also, if pressed body to body, as in a pin, rear targets may be easier to access than front, particularly if the blade is being drawn from around the beltline or a pocket.

This is not an assassination question.

A quick Google search is not actually such a great source for something like this. It appears to me that the kidneys are under 2-3 inches of muscle depending upon angle, but I am really not sure that this corresponds to a 3-4 inch blade.

[EnglishmanInArizona]

Cross posted. Thanks to those offering answers.

[glistam]

Bad sign when "rapid stop" and "blade" appear in the same sentence. Even bullets to the kidney don't necessarily cause "rapid stop."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18210067

Only literature I have seen that advocated thrusts to the kidney are sentry-removal texts. And that isn't all that useful for self-defense.

[EnglishmanInArizona]

Bad sign when "rapid stop" and "blade" appear in the same sentence. Even bullets to the kidney don't necessarily cause "rapid stop."

"Rapid" is very relative in this case. That abstract also only demonstrates that the individual survived. It gives no indication of whether he was stopped. I'm not using "stop" as a euphemism for "kill" here.

Only literature I have seen that advocated thrusts to the kidney are sentry-removal texts. And that isn't all that useful for self-defense.

It's not just in sentry removal texts, but the reason they advocate thrusts to the kidney is because of the high likelihood of serious, instantaneous shock, creating TIME to do whatever is next, usually cut the throat in that context.

In self defence, time is equally valuable. That moment created by shock may be enough to escape a pin, to run away, or to do some other type of damage to an opponent.

The biomechanical/bleeding/organ shock argument has been going on for a long time, I'm not looking to go over it again. If it ever came down to it, I'd be looking to hedge my bets and go for all three. A stab to and cut out from the kidney hits two of those approaches.

[Odd Job]

Here you go:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/kidneys.jpg

This is an adult male with a fair amount of muscle and fat.
Skin to renal capsule, short distance is 6cm.
Skin to renal artery or renal pelvis is around 9cm.
If you don't have a straight shot, then you can be looking at 10cm to hit something vital on a kidney.

[EnglishmanInArizona]

Thank you Odd Job!

That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for, and the detail on sex and build was really useful. I could have been estimating off a section from a 90lb woman and had no idea.

Looks like 3" barely stands a chance, 4" is a realistic minimum then, and 5" would definitely be an improvement, particularly if someone is heavily muscled or just plain fat - or both. Looks like Texan Scott's WAG was about right. As he says, not a small knife by EDC standards, and it's got to be in as far as it will go.

Thanks again.

[hso]

Not at all. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-13892.html

The problem is that there are very few SD opportunities to stab to the kidney.

[EnglishmanInArizona]

The problem is that there are very few SD opportunities to stab to the kidney.

Probably so. In the rare event, however, it would be good to know whether it's worth trying, or if it's better to use your time trying something else.

I note from the other thread someone states 5-10 seconds for a good stab to the kidneys to take someone down. If that's true - that is pretty fast for a knife wound, and seems well worth having as an option. If you also get a stunning effect, then it seems excellent.

Thanks again for the inputs from people.

[Texan Scott]

It's a rare opportunity I'd be happy to never have, yeah... and "rapid stop" and "blade" don't sound good together, no... but if (God forbid) your life, your last and only hope for ever again seeing the loved ones who think you're running to the corner for a loaf of bread, ever depend on it.... English, do all the damage you can, keep doing it, and pray it works....

[Gordon]

7" attack blade length was not just pulled out of the air!:rolleyes:

[Nematocyst]

And if all else fails, jugulars, carotids
and trachea (http://teleanatomy.com/General%20Anatomy/Introduction%20to%20Anatomy%203rd%20Edition/Fascia_files/image010.jpg) are not nearly so deep.

[Texan Scott]

My teeth aren't all that sharp. :(

[EnglishmanInArizona]

7" attack blade length was not just pulled out of the air!

I think there are a LOT of reasons that 7" is an ideal length (said the actress to the Bishop).

Unfortunately, many of us cannot carry a 7" knife with us as an EDC. For me, I am able to carry anything under 5" onto university grounds (an environment where I cannot carry a gun) - and information in this thread shows that the kidneys, a target I have been taught, is still a very viable target with a blade that pushes to the limits of that envelope. It's not a viable target with my current pocket knife.

And if all else fails, jugulars, carotids
and trachea are not nearly so deep.

Yes indeed, and probably as rapid as can be achieved with a knife. A generally preferable target, especially with your new ESEE 3 :) Your enthusiasm about it is quite contagious.

[9mmepiphany]

Probably so. In the rare event, however, it would be good to know whether it's worth trying, or if it's better to use your time trying something else.
It is not, it is better to try something else

I note from the other thread someone states 5-10 seconds for a good stab to the kidneys to take someone down. If that's true - that is pretty fast for a knife wound, and seems well worth having as an option. If you also get a stunning effect, then it seems excellent.
It isn't as fast as you might think. 5-10 seconds is a lifetime in a fight...I can accurately empty a 15 round magazine and reload in 5 seconds...a long fight is one lasting more than 15 seconds

In a face-to-face knife encounter, you'd be better served by removing your attacker's ability to grasp their weapon, raise their arm and support their body weight.

I have personally witnessed more fights involving blades than I'd care to remember and seen live footage of more. The kidneys aren't really a practical target, except for sentry removal

Fighting within any system that emphasizes movement off the opponent's line of attack gives a reasonable probability of rear targets being open.
Systems that I have experience in, have taught to have completed at least 2 cuts before you even get there...you're attacker wouldn't be standing at that point, much less holding a weapon

[Nematocyst]

Your enthusiasm about it is quite contagious.

And genuine. :cool:

Read 9mm's advice ^,
along with JShirley, Hso and Conwict,
and check out the 3"ers. ;)

[EnglishmanInArizona]

Thank you 9mm. Your experience is valued.

Systems that I have experience in have taught to have completed at least 2 cuts before you even get there

Likewise.

In your opinion, then, if you do find yourself in the advantageous position of being practically behind them, having already made at least two cuts, you would go for the throat? That's been my preference in practice, and I generally find that my knife is high at that point anyway and the throat is also the nearest target. There are just a few situations where I tend to find the kidneys the more immediate target, and given their use in sentry takeouts I am loath to dismiss them.

In a face-to-face knife encounter, you'd be better served by removing your attacker's ability to grasp their weapon, rise their arm and support their body weight.

Clearly you favour the biomechanical cutting approach. Of the three approaches it is the only one I don't doubt the theory of, because no matter how much adrenalin, amphetamine or whatever else is in someone's system, if tendons are no longer connected they will not work. Period. All that I do doubt is the practical application - my/your/someotherguy's ability to effectively make those cuts with a relatively short blade. For everyone who says it is feasible, someone else says it is not. If you have seen it working with EDC sized knives, I would really like to know.

I started out with cutting swords. Biomechanical cutting is obvious in that case. If I was using a 12" knife I wouldn't be concerned, either. Using a 5" knife - it ain't much to slice with.

5-10 seconds is a lifetime in a fight

Agreed. For a single wound, though, it seems quite fast. In a multiple opponent situation (which is, for me, the most likely situation in which I wouldn't be able to run away) where I don't have the luxury of continuing to press the advantage over a single opponent, it seems valuable.

Admittedly, a multiple opponent situation is seriously bad, but it really does seem the most likely situation in which my knife is drawn. It's the situation in which I am most likely to have it concealed in my hand before anything kicks off.

As said above, experience is valued, and I'd appreciate comments.

[Nematocyst]

My suggestion in the middle of this blade talk is this.

Make sure at least one of your hands holds a 16 - 20" stick.

For me, it's my left hand. The stick blocks,
breaks a hand or arm, then reverses direction
to cap a knee from the inside. Something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGgaQ07D09Y).

If necessary, the knife slashes or stabs.

[9mmepiphany]

After the two cuts and now being behind my attacker, my next move would be to escape or move on to the next attacker. In MBC, my last cut is leaves the blade low...having just taken the quad. The technique was based on using a 3" blade...which will go though any arm or leg muscle to the bone. A longer blade takes a different technique, but you really aren't at much of a disadvantage with a 5" blade...plus it is easier to reverse blade orientation and grip.

I've only worked against multiple opponents in practice melees and I'm getting the same 3 basic cuts in as I step through each one...bagua footwork and body motion help. Another advantage of stepping into your attacker is that it limits the targets you offer the other attackers. The short blade needs to be used with a different mind set than a long blade...it isn't about holding them at bay and trading strikes and parries. I can't even imagine engaging and only making a single cut

[Jason_G]

7" attack blade length was not just pulled out of the air!

Unfortunately, many of us cannot carry a 7" knife with us as an EDC. For me, I am able to carry anything under 5" onto university grounds (an environment where I cannot carry a gun)

Double check to make sure that they aren't referring to overall length of the entire knife when they say 5". I may be wrong, but a 5" blade sounds awfully lenient for most college settings. I suppose if kitchen knives are allowed in dorms, and there is no special exception for dorm rooms, then it is possible that they allow such a long blade, but again, I'd double check if I were you. Where I went to school (at two different colleges), the blade couldn't be more than 2.5", IIRC, and there was an OAL limit too, if my memory serves me correctly.

Silly that there's a perceived need for such laws, but I wouldn't want you to get in trouble with your school or the law. If you're sure you are reading it correctly, then I apologize for being so nosy. ;)


Jason

[JShirley]

I can accurately empty a 15 round magazine and reload in 5 seconds

9mm is a better handgun shot than I am in general, but I'm pretty sure I can beat him on a mag dump, probably accompanied by getting offline simultaneously. (I was next to the shooter who took top honors out of 60 students in our Gunsite class, and handily outshot him on non-traditional responses.)

After 2 cuts to get behind an attacker (wrist/forearm, leg or side of stomach, for example), if I didn't immediately have to defend against someone else, I would tend to give a quick kidney-aimed jab to reduce the chance the attacker could continue to attack/pursue me.

you're attacker wouldn't be standing at that point, much less holding a weapon

Unfortunately, while this would be my hope, if I'm responding at lightning speed with a sub-4" blade, I wouldn't count on it being true. If nothing else, I will have moved too fast for my attacker to fall, and I'm not going to wait to see if my slashes have been effective. I'm going to fight until there's no threat, I can get away, or the lights go out. Further, that kidney stab will push my attacker away from me, or if I'm scared enough and there aren't other assailants- and the attacker is wearing appropriate clothing- I can grab his collar and put more stabs in until he realizes the universe wants him to stop trying to hurt me.

John

[hso]

The kidneys aren't really a practical target, except for sentry removal

That's a very true statement.

From a SD standpoint there's almost no chance the depth to the kidney is relevant.

From the historical standpoint there might be some interest in the various military sentry removal philosophies.

[JShirley]

It's also possible that I was unduly influenced by reading old Marine hand-to-hand fighting techniques as a preteen.

I assure you, the tips about how to attack from behind have greatly helped my choking technique over the years! I've trained with very tough people who outweighed me by over 50%, who made the mistake of letting me get a good grip before they tried to dislodge me. :D I hope they learned the importance of stopping the attack before that point!

[hso]

I think that a lot more people recognize the value in being able to choke an opponent into submission these days thanks to televised MMA matches.

I used a kidney stab sparring many years ago, but that was because it "was there" and I didn't waste any opportunities to score/damage. It was a very unique situation.

OTOH, John and 9mm have pointed out that you don't want to stand there and fence with an attacker. Circling and cutting to get the attacker's back is what my CB instructor taught us. Finishing the attack once you were behind was also taught. We did not target the kidney much in the sequences because it just wasn't that easy to hit.

[Alaska444]

Apologies for a relatively ugly question.

What length of blade is considered a reasonable minimum for reaching the kidneys, from behind?

I'm aware that a blade can penetrate deeper than it's length due to compression, but I would rather leave that out of things as too variable.
From the front or the back?

Honestly, strange question my friend.

[EnglishmanInArizona]

Well, excellent, that is a lively debate :), and very good food for thought.

I am in the company of my elders and betters here, and I truly appreciate the responses.

Yes, the University of Arizona has a fairly lenient weapons policy compared to many universities. Knives with blades under 5" are not defined as weapons, and they're unambiguous about that. No apologies required, Jason.

Alaska444 - I assume you haven't read the whole thread. I think it's worth reading.

And Nem - I'd have been disappointed if you or someone else hadn't come in to say "use a stick" ;). I haven't been carrying a stick, because at my age it would obviously be a weapon and for the next four months I am sadly surrounded by hippy academics who I need to believe I am not crazy. These forums are making me think about revising that idea.

[JShirley]

I think that a lot more people recognize the value in being able to choke and opponent into submission these days thanks to televised MMA matches.

Oh, there's a trick I learned from that old Marine manual that I haven't really seen anywhere else, that goes along with the choke. Lots of people expect the choke- they don't expect the bonus. ;)

[JShirley]

EIA,

To answer what I think is your real question, if someone's mitts are slashed to ribbons, it's hard for them to hold weapons to use upon you. Yes, hands are smaller, faster targets than other body parts, but hands are mounted on arms, which are a bit slower, and much larger, and which hands depend on for movement.

Like you, I like big blades. Hell, Sam and others have shown various Camp Defenders, which, despite its usefulness in the woods, really is my idea of the knife I'd want in my hand if I can't be holding a firearm when bad things happen. But even very short blades can inflict devastating wounds on muscle and sinew, have no doubt. But don't trust- it's not over until it's over, but my point is that a very long knife is not an absolute requirement to defend yourself, if you must use a knife.

I don't know if you've seen them, but Sam has made several examples of the Active Resistance Knife, which is a purpose-built knife for preventing sexual assault. Its blade is less than 2" long, because after your fingers stop working, raping someone will no longer be your first motivation.

You might think about using the butt end of a properly chosen knife as an impact tool. A hard smash with a sturdy G10-scaled knife is likelier to quickly end an attack quicker than a stab to almost anywhere. So, if you cannot reasonably escape an attack, and your attacker foolishly is not using a weapon that outranges fists, several quick slashes to arms, followed by a smash to the ocular orbits, temple, or base of the skull will likely end an attack.

John

[Texan Scott]

my understanding is that he wanted to know what would work if he were grappling face to face with an attacker (eg if the attacker is on top of him, putting his hands BEHIND the man). At that distance, he might no longer be able to get his hands in front, so he's thinking about doing damage to his assailant from the back, even though he's in front. the kindeys afford the most potential for damage, but only if the knife is large enough. personally, my BUK is a crkt dogfish (go ahead, laugh) but I keep it REALLY sharp... the kidney stab wouldn't work for me. then again, with knives, I don't rely on penetration injuries to do it... I go for deep, long cuts. (A punctured lung might not register to a meth head, not for a long while if the lung doesn't collapse.) a cut an inch and a half deep and more than a foot long ANYWHERE gets noticed, damages muscle, and draws a LOT of blood... and I'm sorta of the opinion that if fear and pain won't end a fight, blood loss and physical failure may be the only thing that will. Go for the trapezii/ latissimii... you know, those long muscles right near the surface of the back, the ones that hurt so darn bad when they knot up between the shoulders.... slice that an inch deep and a foot long... and keep slicing. Keep telling yourself "I wanna see my family again, I wanna see my family again..."

[EnglishmanInArizona]

Thanks John.

Actually, I was more concerned about how much damage a small knife can inflict in a cut to the hand or forearm, rather than the issue of hitting small, fast targets. I've found that to be much easier than a lot of self-proclaimed experts make it out to be.

You might think about using the butt end of a properly chosen knife as an impact tool.

While I have adjusted most things from swords down to knives just fine over the years, I had forgotten that the difference in lethality between the ends of a knife is much different than with a sword. I love pommel strikes with a sword, but I have always though of them as being softeners on the way to a conclusive cut.

That is a very, very useful piece of advice. Thank you.

[Odd Job]

I think the 5-10 seconds incapacitation time for a kidney incision is fairly optimistic. You have several problems:

1) The kidneys are mobile with breathing, on inspiration they move inferiorly, on expiration superiorly.
2) There is a reasonable amount of variation in the size and position of kidneys even if you consider them as being static.
3) A kidney can take a lot of damage, you would have to be fairly lucky to cut someone so that you render that kidney not viable.

In my opinion you may be better off trying to cut the spinal cord at a high enough level to render him less mobile. If you can hit higher, root of neck will be even better.
That's for a defensive last resort if you are on your back on the ground and you have a knife in hand.

[EnglishmanInArizona]

I really need to type replies faster instead of doing other things at the same time :)

Looks like I will mostly forget about kidneys.

ARK
I'd not seen the ARKs. I like the designs a lot. The clip point LOOKS more dangerous, and I think for a knife aimed at the untrained as much as the trained that's probably a good, confidence inspiring factor, even if it makes little difference in use.

[9mmepiphany]

I love pommel strikes with a sword, but I have always though of them as being softeners on the way to a conclusive cut.
Look up Yawara stick (kongo) techniques. I was going to post a picture of just the stick, but this picture came up and it reminded me of a childhood favorite escapist read...lets see how many recognize her

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/55549/1119998-untitled_1_super.jpg

...or it's more modern form the Kubotan

While I have adjusted most things from swords down to knives just fine over the years
Many techniques from the Western sword transfer well to a large knife like a Bowie...look up James Keating...but the smaller knives seem to work better with techniques that originate from the East...think Arnis and Silat

[EnglishmanInArizona]

Look up Yawara stick (kongo) techniques.

Thanks. Part of the problem with pommel strikes using a sword is that you have two or three feet of steel sticking out of the other side of your hand. There's now a whole new world of bludgeoning open to me :D

Many techniques from the Western sword transfer well to a large knife like a Bowie...look up James Keating...but the smaller knives seem to work better with techniques that originate from the East...think Arnis and Silat

I'm familiar with the Bowie, and with Keating, and using large knives like a sword or like a knife, but yes, I really have a lack of techniques for smaller knives. What I do have with small knives is mostly from that most controversial of men, James Loriega.

[Alaska444]

I think the 5-10 seconds incapacitation time for a kidney incision is fairly optimistic. You have several problems:

1) The kidneys are mobile with breathing, on inspiration they move inferiorly, on expiration superiorly.
2) There is a reasonable amount of variation in the size and position of kidneys even if you consider them as being static.
3) A kidney can take a lot of damage, you would have to be fairly lucky to cut someone so that you render that kidney not viable.

In my opinion you may be better off trying to cut the spinal cord at a high enough level to render him less mobile. If you can hit higher, root of neck will be even better.
That's for a defensive last resort if you are on your back on the ground and you have a knife in hand.
From a medical perspective, there are a whole lot of much better targets than trying to go for the kidneys. You have two lungs that are easily punctured through the front, side or back of the thorax and can quickly incapacitate a person.

[JShirley]

Oh. Surprised to hear this advice from you. Gonna disagree.

[hso]

Quickly?

With all due respect, NO.

There are far too many examples of pnumothorax that the victim has survived for hours without being resolved.

I agree that the lungs are much better targets if you can puncture both. BUT the times involved in a fight for your life are of an entirely different scale than most physicians are used to dealing with. Minutes are an eternity.

I would certainly try to open both lungs to collapse, but you can still be killed by your attacker. We're talking about minutes and moments in these fights instead of hours and minutes.

[rcmodel]

Kidneys?

Why not the Carotid arteries in the neck?
Or the axillary arteries under the arm pits?
Or the femoral arteries between the legs?

All will dump the blood pressure out of the brain before you hit the ground.

rc

[Nematocyst]

In other words, if you want to reduce pressure
at the end of the hose, cut the hose.

[Texan Scott]

This is all (ok not ALL, but some of it) very interesting reading... wrt lung injuries... I have a bit of experience here... it hurts like hockeysticks. It's the only injury I had in the service that made me bawl like a little girl, and I've had a couple. That said, potentially fatal though it was, I remained completely ambulatory. (Actually, the thing that 'put me down' was 30cc morphine, intravenious).
Don't count on a lung hit to stop an attacker. Don't count on anything to stop your attacker. Even without drugs, he's tougher than you give him credit for - and so are you. If he's already engaged with lethal intent, start cutting as deep as you can, as much as you can, anywhere you can, and don't stop until one of you is a loose pile of mess. Pray to (Whomever) that you never have to; pray that if you have to, it's enough. Stay safe.

[Nematocyst]

If he's already engaged with lethal intent, start cutting as deep as you can, as much as you can,
anywhere you can, and don't stop until one of you is a loose pile of mess.I suspect that pretty much sums it up.

[9mmepiphany]

I'm sure it has been brought up before, but it still bears repeating as it is much more applicable when using a short blade.

Don't engage in a Monkey Dance with your opponent. Bringing a knife into a fight is just as serious, if not more so, than a gun. It requires a total commitment to engage in bladework

[Jason_G]

Bringing a knife into a fight is just as serious, if not more so, than a gun. It requires a total commitment to engage in bladework

Yes.

I have no training in any martial arts that involve blades of any kind, but I have done ride-outs with paramedics when I was considering applying to med school; talked to them quite a bit about runs they've made involving various sorts of violent acts, and I also have a good friend that works in a very busy ER that is known for treating all of the trauma in our area. Also have many friends in law enforcement. The basic underlying theme in all of their testimonies is that if it's a knife fight, it's probably going to be a horrible bloody ordeal, with lots of permanent maiming, possible death, and it will probably be hard to tell who was the winner until after surgery.

Obviously serious training could mitigate some of that (although I'm not sure to what extent), but I would not enter into a knife-to-knife SD scenario if I could avoid it in any way whatsoever. I carry a pistol (a weapon I am much more proficient and trained with) as a defensive tool. I know the OP made this thread with the premise of being in a setting that precluded the carrying of a firearm, but in that situation, I am not above running away if that's what it will take. Hey, it's fight or flight. I'll take the latter if it means getting back to my family safe.



Jason

[Nematocyst]

... I would not enter into a knife-to-knife SD scenario
if I could avoid it in any way whatsoever. Have I mentioned sticks today?

[EnglishmanInArizona]

Have I mentioned sticks today?

I think without checking we can give you the benefit of the doubt there, Nematocyst :D

I am very glad I asked the original question. The discussion has gone way beyond what I hoped, and in a very good way. It's also led me to decide that, weird looks or no weird looks, convenient or inconvenient, I will be taking a stick to school this year. I know what I'm doing with it better than a small knife, and it is is the superior weapon. Besides, I'm English, I can get away with a little more eccentricity even at my young age.

[Nematocyst]

I will be taking a stick to school this year.
:cool:

I know what I'm doing with it better than a small knife,
Most of us do. We swung sticks before we cut with blades.

and it is is the superior weapon.I don't think I fully agree there. I want a stick guarding my perimeter (beyond arm length).

But if a psycho gets inside that perimeter, I'll take a sharp E3.

[JShirley]

Range is good if you're the defender.

EIA, you need to think outside the box. You want both range and legality, plus convenience.

This is doable.

[Odd Job]

Yep, stabbed lungs aren't always a big deal. Here's a memorable case I saw, a young lady got stabbed by a jealous ex-girlfriend. She got stabbed several times in the back and the assailant was kind enough to let her take the blade with her:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/X-BladeInChestProne.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/X-BladeInChestHBL.jpg

That last stab is quite deep. What isn't obvious on these pictures is the young lady has bilateral pneumothoraces. Very difficult to reproduce here with the limited resolution images, but I saw them myself. Small clue on the left side is surgical emphysema in the tissues overlying the scapula area.
This woman walked right into the ER. She was treated as a resus, one of the few cases I have seen treated prone (the knife had a handle which is radiolucent at these exposure settings).

[EnglishmanInArizona]

My current EDC for campus is pepper spray and a folding knife. I will definitely be going to a fixed blade and keeping the folder as a backup and for cutting cheese etc. when I don't want to scare the liberals. A fixed blade is permissible but is just too likely to result in 911 calls in that environment. It will stay totally concealed.

I've been seriously considering a collapsible baton. They're not specifically barred from the campus, but they are clearly weapons rather than ADA-protected mobility aids. Far more convenient than a cane, if a little slower in deployment. I don't know if they will work for thrusts, though, even with the newer twist lock types, and that would limit them a lot if the measure got tight. If I can transition smoothly to knife while controlling the baton in my left hand, then it's not so bad, but that seems a little unlikely in the middle of being rushed.

The other thing is repurposed sports equipment. A racquetball racquet has been suggested. Doesn't seem any more convenient than a cane, though, and everyone who vaguely knows me would very quickly realize that it was not for playing ball, which leads me to think I might as well be the apparently able-bodied guy with a cane as the non-player with a racquet.

[qwert65]

Two things one regarding the lungs there is a pneumo-thorax and a tension pneumo thorax(sucking wound) a tension pneumo will stop someone who is exerting themselves fairly quickly, a normal pneumo thorax not so much.

The other is just a story from a ling time ago, before I learned to keep my mouth shut.
I got attacked by two guys anyway one started choking me and the other backed off. I was up against a wall I managed to grab a screwdriver on a table next to me and started stabbing, I have no idea where I cut him but there was quite a bit of blood and they fled. My point is know your techniques cause I didn't know any, further I couldn't reach my knife and slashing with a screwdriver is out of the question. So don't anybody just focus on slashing moves. Everybodies sit awareness fails sometimes

[conw]

I do think the kidneys are a potentially viable defensive target simply due to the fact that they are accessible. At slight range, hands and face in that order are more likely (hands due to proximity, and people tend to thrust their hands out and face as a follow-up as taught by Southnarc) - simply put, it's the most bang for your buck, probably, in terms of disruption (for that matter, so is punching someone in the face) - but in a "clinch" the kidneys are a natural target for a reverse-grip blade style (I'm mostly referring to "Forward Grip Edge-up" or FGEU - if you make a vertical fist with your arm held straight out while holding the knife, the tip would be pointing at the ceiling, with the sharp edge pointing back at the wielder), as are all of the muscles on the back and the armpit (which is artery-laden).

People will generally argue all day long that clinches "don't happen," shouldn't happen, won't happen because they train to stay at range, etc, but the fact is, if someone is trying to bear-hug you, you essentially have to bear-hug them back to make them let go; in the process of this type of thing, if that person was much bigger than you and was, say, trying to put you into a white windowless van (I guess you should have listened when people said northwest Mexico was a bad summer road trip destination! :D), "expedient target" starts to make a lot of sense, and since a solid bear-hug will make elbow and shoulder articulation difficult, getting to the upper thoracic region is an iffy bet.

Just a good basic grappling knowledge is better than any knife for this, but there are people out there who by virtue of their size can manhandle any much smaller person regardless of the skill disparity; and a backup option that is compatible with a good basic grappling knowledge is better than either by itself in any case.

[Nematocyst]

Depth of kidneys must relate to bunker busters in some way.

[hso]

I think we have explained why the kidney is a poor target in a self defense situation.

The human body is remarkably resilient in a fight and to survive an attack is our only objective. This is difficult to do if we mistake sentry techniques for SD.

[Nematocyst]

I think we have explained why the kidney
is a poor target in a self defense situation.

I agree.

The human body is remarkably resilient in a fight ...

It's that homeostasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis) thing.

... and to survive an attack is our only objective.

If we do not survive, we do not reproduce.
If we do not reproduce, our genes do not
continue with the species.

Darwin called that 'fitness' = survive + reproduce.

This is difficult to do if we mistake sentry techniques for SD.
Please explain the term "sentry techniques".

[velo99]

As I was reading thru this thread, aside from the fact there are some very well trained and intelligent people here, I think given the original setting and to incapacitate the BG how about the tendons of the knees right below the hamstring or the hamstring itself ? One thing is sure, he won't be chasing anyone soon. Even a short knife will do the job right.

[9mmepiphany]

You don't have to reach either down or behind so far for a more effective cut. Remember that the hamstring only retracts the leg. If you take out the quad, the leg can't be extended...won't be able to stand

[hso]

We probably should open another thread on the incapacitation of limbs by cutting. It is a whole study unto itself.

[conw]

I don't think kidney shots deserved their own post, BTW, but I do think reifying self-defense concepts into different categories such as sentry-removal, or only-bad-guys-can-do-that, can be a big mistake.

One concept that's often overlooked in "knife-fighting", and I credit some of Southnarc's affiliates for cluing (that looks like it needs to be spelled "clueing", doesn't it?) me in to this, is that punching and striking is a valid concept unto itself for self-defense, and that is NOT changed by having a knife in one's hand.

I did some striking drills with a partner today on focus pads, just a quick refresher for the basic motor movements.

Boxing (empty-hand) incorporating basic strikes; forward-grip knife (right-hand); reverse-grip knife (left-hand - same knife, held in different grip); tac-pen (left and right hand, and it's interchangeable with how I use a 2-cell flashlight); and sap (right-hand only).

What is interesting is that, aside from the sap, judging from my partner's feedback and the obvious impact on the pad (just a relatively cheap pad similar to this one (http://www.tigerstrike.com/handpad.html)) the back-handed left-hand reverse-grip "jab" type strikes seemed to be as powerful or more powerful from a pure striking perspective as any of the punches.

I was going for pure form rather than generating additional power past using crisp, tight technique and staying loose; and I found that the angle of incidence to the flat surface was more controllable with an object in my hand, allowing for a more direct impact, with no loss of ability to generate striking power.

Conversely the forward-grip methods did not allow for this same level of control nor power generation (mostly due to the wrist articulation required for a forehand, forward-grip jab with an implement - this is why I don't bother with forward-grip pen or flashlight techniques).

What am I getting at? Well, again, striking is valid all by itself. Adding a knife or other object, particularly a small knife, does not lessen the ability to transmit power similarly to a strike. (Yes, I know people frequently say good knife technique doesn't rely on power - but what is the outcome-based definition of "good?" - this is like shot placement vs power; I want both for an optimal outcome!).

Kidney shots in particular, that are striking based, are known in boxing as fight-enders.


From: http://coxscorner.tripod.com/louis.html

Emmanuel Steward after studying film of Louis-Schemling 2 concurred about Louis paralyzing power, making the following observation, (Pacheco, 45), "Louis body punches were unbelievable. After Max had been immobolized by a right to the kidney, he took a left hook to the solar plexus which paralyzed him. Even though Max was hurt and wanted to fall down, he couldn't even fall."

The June 23, 1938 NY Times quoted Schmeling as saying he was hit with a kidney punch, a devastating right, which so shocked his nervous system, that he was "dazed" and his "vision was blurred." He was hit so hard to the body he lost his sight for a few seconds.

There are lots of other documented effects of body-shots, both anecdotal and reasonably well-documented in boxing fights.

Here is a review from Sportsci.org:

http://www.docspal.com/viewer?id=syppfwq-2005866

It mostly covers the aspects related to chronic low-grade kidney impact, but does have some interesting tidbits, such as the fact that the kidneys are closer to the surface in a typical "crouch" fight stance, and may be displaced by the diaphragm (pushed outward) due to exertion.

Anyway, in summary, in case I wasn't clear:

1) The kidneys and some other regions that may or may not be super-deadly (liver, solar plexus) are valid boxing/striking targets as demonstrated and witnessed in boxing fights - they CAN end a fight

2) I doubt having a knife in the hand will reduce the viability of these targets!

3) Caveat regarding #2 - some styles of holding and using the knife would let one deliver massively more impact to a region - in general, reverse grip allows greater transmission of force, but as range decreases, forward-grip edge-up (FGEU) becomes more viable - at the extreme end of the spectrum (being crushed physically against something by another body), FGEU is probably more effective since angle of incidence is going to be improved (more perpendicular) when you are reaching around someone's back out of necessity while being bear-hugged

Be opportunistic! If your fighting style changes massively due to having a small sharp object in your hand, maybe that's an issue. Kidneys are viable before the small sharp object appears, whether it appears or not, and I don't think you want to run a massive Windows Update to your Operating System just because of a small hardware improvement during a fight. Do you? The concept of "shoot to stop" is better expressed until "shoot to stop UNTIL stoppage occurs," and I believe fighting is no different. There's no harm striking a particular region if you don't have the mindset of "wait and see what happens next."

[Gordon]

I really appreciate Odd Job 's input , all ways a breath of reality and enlightenment for me!
Conwict is pretty right on as are the mods and others.
I grew up in Italian and Puerto Rican adolescent knife fights in Jersey. I got a Randal 8" #1 from Bo hissef in 1967 after I graduated Benning Jump school.
I used that #1 Randall that garnered me respect from most real men over there in a genuine bayonet to my knife fight that occurred when a 300+ pound Islander mess sarge, drunk out of his mind lunged into the NCO's and Lt. & Company Commander tent who were engaged in a friendly game of poker. The man was seriously getting after the stunned Officers knocking both down and trying to gut them as they wiggled around on the ground trying to avoid the M-14 Bayonet !
We all screamed at the guy with his Japanese first name to zero effect and the first sarge and an e-7 could not stop his lunges. There was no readily available bludgeons in the party hooch and I don't think they could of stopped this amped giant figian.
Not wanting to stab a fellw soldier in the back I drew my Randall and held in a low retracted stance tried to back him off and succeeded in getting a lunge for my efforts! I have fast reactions and pushed the M-14 forearm to the outside with a full power shove and stepped in and severed the forearm tendons of his right armwhich was extended in the lunge.
End of fight, dude sits on floor holding dangling right arm with his left and howls like an animal. I still remember the howling until the medics got him sedated with much morphine!
MP's took my knife , but Company commander gave it back to me not long after. I made a statement to CID officer, the Cook went home with his "war wound" .
Couple years later I did manage two days with Michael Echanis down in LA or San Diego at a dojo he was teaching in, I still have all his books and their elaborate (but effective) moves but learned about 4 good moves from him; 3 from behind!:scrutiny:

[Nematocyst]

OK, I searched "sentry techniques (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=13892)" myself.
______

On the topic of strikes (as in Conwict's treatise above), I belong to the school of thought that says don't strike with a closed fist; broken hand bones are a very common result of 'fist fights'. (That's why boxers wear padded gloves.) Instead, I train with open-handed strikes or hammer fists.

Of course, in a last ditch, I guess you do what you need to stop the fight, but I'd rather leave my hand bones intact. If they break while punching while holding a knife, then you cannot hold the knife or punch. (Yes, I understand that fist loading may help, but still ....)

But then I don't have the training that many of you do, so I'm stating this as opinion, and will defer to the experts.

Conwict: thoughts?

[hso]

Impact to kidneys isn't as dependent on the precise targeting of the kidney with a blade. You don't have to consider whether the blow is going to slide past or roll off the kidney.

I think the discussion of fighting with a knife vs. knife fighting is a whole separate topic that keeps getting touched on and it is probably time for a thread just on that. Conwict, want to start that thread since you're the most frequent and vocal person here about the differences?

[Nematocyst]

Guys, will someone please post a link to the new thread when it begins?

[conw]

Sure, I will do that as a little fun project soon. I wish there was a way to hide this stuff from Google because it is a bit of an untoward subject. Hmm...

Btw hso, I'm still in agreement with you regarding the impact vs stabbing! I do keep thinking about ways to convey some of these things that broaden others' and my own perspective rather than put people into artifical camps.

Nem Chrome and some other browsers let you highlight text and right click to Google search it - nice easy way to get up to speed.

Regarding closed fist, I think respectable people fall on both sides of that.

Here is an article by someone I respect. His tone may be a bit strident at times but does know what he's talking about. http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/articles/non-firearms-defensive-tools/closed-fist-strike/

[9mmepiphany]

Sure, I will do that as a little fun project soon. I wish there was a way to hide this stuff from Google because it is a bit of an untoward subject. Hmm...
There is often a perception of evil that seems to attach itself to blade work...which is funny when you consider that it doesn't attach to archery

Btw hso, I'm still in agreement with you regarding the impact vs stabbing! I do keep thinking about ways to convey some of these things that broaden others' and my own perspective rather than put people into artifical camps.
Whenever I think of effective impact the first image that pops into my mind is of the agent in the movie Serenity :p

...the second image is of Bruce Lee's 1" punch, which had nothing to do with hand, arm, shoulder or hip energy/force/speed/strength...how's that for broadening perspective? :neener:

[hso]

Boxing video or real bouts are much better value than fictional representations.
Punching to the kidney is not legal in boxing, but it took place in the old days.