7mm mag vs300 win mag target shooting


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kestak
July 29, 2012, 10:51 AM
For those of you who shoot long distance: 700+ meters, which one would be the funnier to shoot?

Funnier meaning precision, handloading, recoil,etc...

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chaser_2332
July 29, 2012, 10:56 AM
this is all personal opinion but to me its hard to beat the 7mm with the high BC bullets avaliable. with the 180 bergers i have had hits on MOA steel at 1580yds. that being said your not into the magnum distances with 700 meters, any reason you want to go that big.

CountryUgly
July 29, 2012, 11:07 AM
Between your choices I'd go with the .300 win mag. Now if you are just looking for a challenge you might want to look into the 30-06, .270, .280 or .260. All of these are capable of hits out to 1000 yards if you do your part. It's a lot easier on you shoulder than the Magnums and more interesting than the .308. Besides "Going Long Range" with a "hunting rifle" these days is not only doable but is way fun. Also it's fun to watch the guy with the $5K rifle get mad when you hit the same shot with a $500 hunting rifle

Art Eatman
July 29, 2012, 11:28 AM
Since it depends on the quality of the setup and the skill of the shooter, odds are that it's six of one, half-dozen of the other.

At one time, the 7mm bullets generally had higher BCs than the .30s and that might well be why the 7mmMag held the world record for 1,000 yards for some years. Bullet R&D pretty much wiped out that advantage.

kestak
July 29, 2012, 11:28 AM
Indeed it is fun to show off to the little-kit-5000$ of the shooter next to you.

This week, I went with my ar-15 mounted with an ACOG to the range. I put steel at 300, 400, 500 and 600. I layed down on the ground, sling up and shot 5 rounds on 200 in rifleman cadence. Then did the same thing with the other steel plates. All 20 shots under 1 minute. The guy on the table next to me with his 5k$ kit was on bipod, rear squeeze bag, wind calculator and spotting scope. My wind calculator was my wet finger and the simple formulae: distance X wind speed / 1000 = moa deviation.

Of course, my shots did not touch each other, but the theoretical commie was still dead....hehehe

The_Armed_Therapist
July 29, 2012, 11:41 AM
The .300 Win Mag will give you about a 50-100y advantage over the 7mm Rem Mag as far as power is concerned and maybe a couple inches of less drop at the same distance. Also, the .300, I think (from what I've heard) is better for reloading. Lastly, the .300 Win Mag is rapidly growing in popularity, meaning it may be even more available than the 7mm Mag... if not now, then soon. The price that you pay for the slight edge of the .300 Win Mag is in recoil, of course. It has about 20-25% more than the 7mm Mag.

Dthunter
July 29, 2012, 12:05 PM
There is no practical difference between them. Both will shoot the same distances when tuned in the right rifles/load components. The 7mm will recoil less, making it more enjoyable to shoot. But the right platform for the 300WM will be just as fun!

Just pick your favorite and shoot. There's nothing like hitting a gong at 1760 + yards!

Trent
July 29, 2012, 01:20 PM
FreedomFreak;

Incorrect information PAST 600 yards.

The 7mm will, in many circumstances, hit HARDER at a longer range than the 300 Win Mag. It all depends on the ballistic coefficient of the bullet in question. Longer, sleeker bullets slip through the air better, which causes (most) 7mm loadings to outperform the 300 Win Mag (in velocity and kinetic energy) at a certain cut-off point.

The trade-off is lighter rounds are affected by wind more.

Edit: As Art pointed out, modern loadings are pretty damn good. A 220 Gr. Sierra Matchking in a 300 Win Mag is hard to beat.

jmr40
July 29, 2012, 02:08 PM
Actually the 7 mag pulls even with the 300 mags at about 400 yards with the best bullets. As a hunting chambering, beyond 400 yards the 7 mag not only shoots flatter, but carries more energy. Inside 400 yards the trajectories are about the same, but the heavier 300 bullets have a slight edge in energy. The 7 mags also generate quite a bit less recoil. The 300's do have a slight edge in the wind because of heavier bullets.

The potential of both is probably the same, but there is more data for a shooter to use, and a better selection of match bullets to choose from in .30 cal. Someone else has already done the R&D and I think it would be easier to get an accurate load/rifle combination in the 300's simply because there is a larger sample of data to work from. You would be doing more trial and error load development with fewer bullet options with the 7 mag.

Remember, in a long range target rifle a flat shooting cartridge is not a prime concern, nor is power, you just have to have enough power to punch a hole in the paper target. You are shooting at the same known ranges every time and the sights can always be adjusted. On a hunting rifle you may be shooting at any possible range and they are unknown most of the time. You also need enough power to cleanly kill the animal you are hunting.

Dthunter
July 29, 2012, 02:10 PM
If a bullet is

(140 grains 6.5cal, B.C .642 Berger Vld),

or a (180grain match boattail target Berger,.284cal, B.C. .643), if the ballistic coefficient is equal, niether will deflect more/less in the wind.

Weight specifically has nothing to do with deflection.

B.C. is the value that represents a bullets profile that is exposed to wind deflection/velocity bleed off.

The 7mm diameter is not magically superior, it is simply popular enough to get the bullet manufacturers to make the best profiles for the diameter. Popular means there is more money in it.

I shoot 7mm allot as well by the way.

Just shoot the one you feel most confident in.

The_Armed_Therapist
July 29, 2012, 02:26 PM
Actually, this is a little bit embarrassing. Trent, I completely agree! I mixed up my numbers for the two. :o

I honestly meant to say that the 7mm gets a 50-100y advantage over the .300 and that the .300 will drop a few more inches at the same distances.

Now, the rest of what I said should be accurate... That the .300 has 20-25% more recoil and is more easily reloaded (though this has come from what I've heard others say rather than my own research). It is also true that the .300 mag seems to be gaining popularity.

redneck2
July 29, 2012, 02:36 PM
Funnier meaning precision, hand loading, recoil,etc..I have a 7mm mag for 1,000 yards. Until you get into the higher weight bullets in .30 cal, it's tough to beat the 7's BC. The .30's beat you up more.

If I were starting over, it would be a 6BR, the .260 Rem, or another 6.5. The 6BR with 105's will match or outperform (ballistics wise) either of the two you listed. You'll have a real hard time exceeding the accuracy of the 6.

If you're really serious, there's a guy on another site that has a match grade 6.5x284 that's priced pretty reasonable. It's all top of the line components. Shoots 1/4" . You couldn't come close to building something for the money.

Trent
July 30, 2012, 12:27 PM
Dthunter - respectfully disagree. Might be splitting hairs here, but BC is a measurement which affects the DRAG while the projectile is moving in a forward direction.

Wind affects the projectile based on weight. The "medium" which the projectile is "swimming in" is moving, in currents. Lighter objects have less resistance, inertia, to this.

BC is the drag induced by forward motion in a specific air density. Wind "hits" the bullet from the SIDE (well, can be any direction, but we're really concerned with side pressure here). Which means the surface area being measured is significantly different than that which is used for determining B.C.

For a matching BC a HEADWIND or TAILWIND will affect both projectiles equally. But any cross winds will affect the lighter bullet more. This is a function of exposed surface area to the crosswind component, mass, and how fast the bullet is already moving in that axis. (E.g. a bullet will "accelerate" sideways UNTIL it's sideways velocity component reaches almost the speed of the wind itself, and no more).

So, yes and no.

Dthunter
July 30, 2012, 01:02 PM
Trentt:

You have a few points trent, but, this splitting hairs doesnt change anything when it comes to wind deflection. plug the two bullets I gave into a ballistic program like Brian Litz (Applied Ballistics) and there will be no difference in wind deflection out past 1000 yards. (given an equal muzzle velocity).

I have had the great opportunity to talk to Brian Litz VIA emails a few times, but I can only absorb so much info. (LOL!) At this level of shooting/ballistics discusion the difference is truely moot.

Either way, your first line in your response to my post is exactly my point. I am not the best in explaining myself at times.

I have always had the knack to figure all this trajectory stuff out, and shoot to 1760 yards (MOA or better in good conditions) without too much difficulty. I have even shot to 1900 yards. But, I "do" have trouble writing a post that a fellow educated shooter cant pick/split hairs with. I guess its the nature of these sites.

At any rate, I enjoy these discussions! There is not many shooters up here that are interested in much more than the bang! LOL!

Take care and keep it fun!

Trent
July 30, 2012, 01:25 PM
DThunter -

The nonlinear mathematics behind it are estimations. Ballistic programs are only as effective as the math behind them. Not saying his math is wrong or right (not wanting to get in to a math discussion - it's WAY beyond the point of the thread lol), but mass is absolutely a component of wind drift; a major one.

ALL ballistic software programs that I know of, ESTIMATE the wind drift based on constants. They are not true 6-independent-axis programs that truly model the flight of the projectile.

I know of NO 6-axis ballistic programs commercially on the market. The US Army did quite a hell of a study on this, including the use of doppler radar to get an idea of what happens to a bullet when it enters the transsonic space (right at and below mach 1). Even with all the fancy equipment there was STILL a heck of a lot of unanswered questions and speculation.

Anyway, wind drift is damn near impossible to model on a computer. Period. You can get CLOSE, but you'll never really get it, at least, not unless you want to model a true 6 axis system and burn a LOT of supercomputer time. Even then, it'll be an estimation, because all of the really interesting stuff happens on the atomic level.

Ballistic software will get you close, sure. But I've personally shot in conditions where it was just flat wrong, based on the load I was using.

You've probably got a lot more practice at longer ranges than I do (I'm not aware of any 1000 yard ranges in Illinois, and the furthest I get to shoot regularly is just upwards of a quarter mile). I would imagine that as those distances grow substantially, so does the wind concern.

And it's your Mk. 1 eyeball, studying the terrain and getting a feel for how that wind is really moving back & forth across the flight path, which really matters. WE have a supercomputer right between the ears, and that gut feeling you get is it's "best answer". :)

hardluk1
July 30, 2012, 03:15 PM
kestak I guess you like being used as a recoil stop and when shooting the 300 or the 7mm rem mag you will get tired of being be on with the average bolt rifle and weight. That is only one reason the more season shooter shooting your shooter distance or useing differnt short 6.5 and even 6mm cartidges and shoting groups under a 1/2" at 600 yards.

Nothing magic about ether round and I hunt with a 7mag. If I was looking for a new rifle today i would shoot a short action 6.5 cartidge.

Guess by now everone knows how great the 338 lapua is. The 260rem can have less fall and less wind drift at 600 yards than a 338 lapua does with its best load. .

kestak
July 30, 2012, 03:28 PM
I use bench rest only for initial zero. Afterward, I shoot prone with a ling (Appleseed style) and refine my zero with the new POI. A sling removes A LOT of the recoil. In fact, the first time my wife shot a Nagant, it was prone with a ling and she commented the recoil was "like a 223".

This morning I shot 40 rounds in my garand, 50 rounds in my Nagant and 12 rounds in my .270. My shoulder is perfectly ok because I use a sling.

JDMorris
July 30, 2012, 03:32 PM
If you want a good magnum round for reloading, I would reccomend a 300 WSM or 7mm WSM.

The short magum case is easier to reload and takes the complications of a belted case out of the picture, all while being able to be shot out of the Remington 700 short action.

kestak
July 30, 2012, 03:39 PM
I want 300 win mag or 7 win mag also because I have half a box of each of once fired brass I got during the last year...

It is my problem, I am a handloader addict. I had too much 270 brass, I had to buy a 270. Then too much 30-30 brass, got a 30-30.....oh well..

chaser_2332
July 30, 2012, 05:37 PM
your baseing your caliber decision on the fact you have 10rds each of brass?

kestak
July 30, 2012, 05:52 PM
Oupsssssss. It is what happen while one-finger typing on my ipad: half a large usps box of each caliber. More like 300-400 brass of each...:)

With the 270, I had 2 large usps boxes...

You must got a good laugh at the stupid kestak who buys a gun becausevhe has 10 brass cases...rotflol

JDMorris
July 30, 2012, 10:06 PM
Sell that brass, the WSM cases are easier to load for and IMO a short action is preferable.

Dthunter
July 30, 2012, 10:07 PM
trent:

Yes our personal "super computer" is what really matters!

I have on numerous occasions shot 3 or 4 rounds of a group only to have a new wind condition show up and try to spoil a decent group in progress! lol!
Some times I can adjust and still tuck it in there, but some times....... well, not so much. LOL!

At longrange I feel allot of it is instinct. (if there is no flags). that makes those first round hits sooooo satisfying! I wish I had more of them!

Trent
July 30, 2012, 10:57 PM
Dthunter - I just wish I had a long range to shoot at!!!!

I've been looking for a stretch of land for over 4 years to buy, JUST so I can shoot at a longer distance than 450 yards. A 300 Win Mag at 300-450 yards is just .. boring, after awhile. Same reason I rarely shoot my 50BMG anymore.

Also (referring to another post) 300 Win Mag belt doesn't matter with reloading - it doesn't headspace off of it. So it loads just like any other ammo. Cases wear out a lot faster if you full length size, but I have got a lot of life out of my brass by neck sizing.

hardluk1
July 31, 2012, 09:11 AM
The reasons folks use to pick a cartidge !!!! amassing

Trent
July 31, 2012, 12:28 PM
I'm guilty of buying a gun because I had ammo for it.

I have at least one box of just about every type of popular commercial ammo left over after I closed down my gun shop. I have about 2000 rounds of 7.62x25, for instance, but no gun to shoot it in. Same for 10mm, 30-30, 30 carbine, 458 ruger, 300 STW, 270 Win, 9x18, etc, etc. I mean, I probably have ammo for about 40 different calibers in the basement, guns for none of them.

Every once in awhile, I'll get a burr up my butt to shoot it, and I'll need to buy a gun to do so. :)

kestak
July 31, 2012, 01:39 PM
It is America!!! oups.....hmmm.......Amerika!!!!!
Let's buy and enjoy guns because we can before we go too much FORWARD! ;-)

Dthunter
July 31, 2012, 02:09 PM
Trent:

We are lucky up here for land use!

I have at least 5 different ares where I can shoot to 1200 yards, and two 1 mile areas.

I just sent my payment for a one mile shoot I will attend to this september! Man I am looking forward to that! Its so much fun socializing with other experienced shooters! Lots to learn, and do!

We are looking to get our range out to 2000 yards in the near future! I hope it turns out!

hardluk1
July 31, 2012, 09:18 PM
Trent if you owned a gun shop then you should have real good idea of what to buy. Not many junk guns today. But not many are going to be worth while in 7mm or 300 mag for "Target" shooting. Build one for a change.

Trent
August 1, 2012, 11:19 AM
Dthunter - what state you live in?

hardluk1 - You'd be surprised, just because you own a shop doesn't mean you know everything about every kind of gun. :)

Regarding what's good - the savage 112 I started with in 300 Win Mag had a factory barrel capable of .3 MOA (after 10 years of refining reloads, I was shooting 0.92" groups at 300 yards; by then the barrel was fouling horrible so I had to replace it). Only changes I made to the original rifle were the addition of a choate stock.

The match grade custom Krieger barrel I put on shoots sub MOA but nowhere close to where I had the original factory barrel shooting - it'll take a great deal of time and effort to get my ammo "tuned" to what the rifle likes, with the new barrel. I have no doubt the Krieger will perform well, but getting from point A to B with ammo is a long and expensive process.

hardluk1
August 1, 2012, 06:09 PM
Sounds like you answered your own question. You know it takes working up good loads and even with a good rifle and what loads works for one my be worthless for another. I still have a 788 rem that is a hunter only but 36 years later it will still shoots 1/2" moa groups. Would I expect any remmy today to do as well. NO. Not with out some luck with the rifle and a long list of trial and error. Today you picks one and hope you gets a good one.

Zak Smith
August 2, 2012, 12:25 AM
At long-range shooting events, both 7mm WSM and 7mm RM are popular with folks who want better long-range performance than the .308-class 6.5mm cartridges. Recently at the SnipersHide Cup in Douglas Wyoming, a 7mm WSM/RM would have been the ideal cartridge to compete with.

hardluk1
August 2, 2012, 07:46 PM
Got to be sure to tell the guys that when there shooting sub 5/8" at 600 yards. Theres allways going to be larger calibers and it does depend on the class and the meet but a bbut the newer and smarter shooters are slowly moveing away from bigger bores atleast to 600 yards. I would be one with the 7 rem mag only because I don't want to start from scratch again till this ones junk. The 260 can fly flatter and with less wind drift than a 338 lapua out to 800 yards so the 6.5's ain't to bad.

Zak Smith
August 2, 2012, 07:49 PM
That might be overstating it just a little bit

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 | YARDS
338LM 300 0.77* 2800 > 0.00 1.41 5.85 13.65 25.23 41.05 61.67 87.71 | wind (inches)
338LM 250 0.645 2950 > 0.00 1.57 6.55 15.39 28.62 46.88 70.91 101.51 | wind (inches)
260 139 0.615 2900 > 0.00 1.69 7.07 16.66 31.07 51.04 77.46 111.12 | wind (inches)
260 123 0.540 3050 > 0.00 1.79 7.56 17.93 33.68 55.76 85.29 123.27 | wind (inches)

338LM 300 0.77* 2800 > -0.00 0.39 1.68 3.22 4.96 6.92 9.13 11.63 | drop (mil)
338LM 250 0.645 2950 > -0.00 0.33 1.51 2.96 4.63 6.56 8.77 11.35 | drop (mil)
260 139 0.615 2900 > -0.00 0.35 1.59 3.12 4.90 6.96 9.36 12.17 | drop (mil)
260 123 0.540 3050 > -0.00 0.30 1.43 2.87 4.57 6.58 8.97 11.84 | drop (mil)

338LM 300 0.77* 2800 > 2800 2602 2413 2231 2057 1891 1734 1585 | velocity (fps)
338LM 250 0.645 2950 > 2950 2708 2477 2260 2054 1859 1677 1511 | velocity (fps)
260 139 0.615 2900 > 2900 2649 2411 2186 1975 1776 1592 1429 | velocity (fps)
260 123 0.540 3050 > 3050 2757 2480 2221 1979 1754 1548 1370 | velocity (fps)

hardluk1
August 2, 2012, 08:08 PM
I know a cartidge I don't care to shoot. MI might be a bit over stated but those small cartidges at 600 to 800 look pretty good and hang right in there. And the 260 has somewhat been over shadowed by more efficient other 6.5 today and a few 142gr bullets.

Zak Smith
August 2, 2012, 08:15 PM
Not really. The .260 is probably the dominant 6.5mm bore shot in practical/field type competitions.

Dthunter
August 2, 2012, 11:50 PM
Trent:

I live in Northern Alberta, Canada

Lots of farm land, mixed with Foothills of the Rockies.

Trent
August 5, 2012, 10:08 AM
Dthunter -

Sounds beautiful! I live in central illinois. The only scenery changes we have here is when we are driving along the highway and a soybean field changes in to a cornfield. It's depressing.

I drove to North Carolina this summer and back again, and I have to tell you.. when I got to West Virginia all through the first leg through Virginia, my mouth was on the floor. I love the mountains. I didn't want to keep driving. Wanted to stay there.

Took my wife out to the rocky mountains on our honeymoon, think I left a big piece of my heart out west! Best 13 days I've ever had, climbing, hiking, etc.

Anyway sorry to get so off topic!

Yelovitz_503
August 5, 2012, 02:06 PM
I love my 7mm Remmington Mag, it's got some recoil but it's a great round to shoot. Both will serve you well, but it will ultimately come down to what is comfortable for you, and what you can afford. Sorry for the non answer, but this is truly a question of personal preference. I personally would recommend the 7mm but that's just the one that I like better.

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