30-30 / Unique / Large Pistol Primers


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Dudemeister
July 29, 2012, 02:10 PM
OK, SO I'm finally getting around to loading some 30-30.

So far the only caliber I've actively reloaded for has been .45LC. But I've accumulated some brass I already shot, and even bought some extra brass, and I'm ready to give it a go.

Given I already have some pistol ingredients, I'd like to use those as much as possible. So what do you folks think of the ideas below.

I got some Hornady 170gr. interlock plated bullets, I already have a full bottle of Unique, and I have a few thousand Large Pistol primers. I also have a couple of bottles of Trail Boss.

I seated a few primers in the 30-30 brass and other than it being just below the face, it appears to fit just fine. I'm pretty sure the firing pin will ignite it, but is it going to be "powerful" enough to ignite the powder? Is Unique going to be location sensitive in the huge cartridge?

I've read a few posts around the web where folks have successfully used this combination.

So I'm looking for a light load recipe for target plinking at 100 yards (my local range allows centerfire rifle cartridges only on the 100).

Thanks

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x_wrench
July 29, 2012, 02:52 PM
i do not know about the pistol primer / unique / rifle load question. but this is a good place for pistol powder loads for rifles.....http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

mbopp
July 29, 2012, 03:17 PM
Unique may work for cast bullets in a 30-30 but I'd use a different powder for jacketed ones.

rcmodel
July 29, 2012, 03:32 PM
Yep!
No pistol powder plinking loads using jacketed bullets.

Not enough gas volume from it to insure a jacketed bullet won't stick in the bore.

BTW: Hornady 170gr. interlock are NOT plated bullets.
They are conventional cup & core jacketed bullets with thick center rings inside the jacket to lock the core in place.

Definitely not suitable for Unique reduced loads!

rc

GP100man
July 29, 2012, 03:36 PM
If I were to be lookin for a low powered low recoil fun load I`d be lookin at cast lead boolits! Save the jacketed for hunting loads .

Ya did`nt say which rifle ya have but I got a Marlin 336 & the micro grooved barrel does just fine with the Lyman 311041 sized to 310 Gas Checked over 20 grs of 3031 & a CCI 200 or no Gas Check over 8gr. of reddot for plinkin.

pistol primers as noted are not as tall as rifle & may cause ignition problems , they`re also prone to being peirced in rifles (not good!) I`d deprime & go with a std. rifle

I have used a bit of Unique 7-10 grs. for the above boolit ,but reddot grouped better .

Also useing jacketed bullets for low pressure loads the danger of lodging a bullet is very real.

Maybe look at data for youth loads using jacketed.

The 30-30 can be alot of fun & a serious game getter also !

I`ll bet more game has fallen to the 30-30 & the 30-06 than all the other calibers combined !!

Centaur 1
July 29, 2012, 03:46 PM
Unique may work for cast bullets in a 30-30 but I'd use a different powder for jacketed ones.
I agree. Especially since the Hornady bullet is jacketed, not plated. If you want to plink go buy some cheap lead bullets and load with the trail boss. You really should buy rifle primers and powder for those jacketed bullets.

Dudemeister
July 29, 2012, 04:05 PM
Great input guys, thanks.

I guess I'll need to get some cast lead bullets if I'm to use the Unique powder and pistol primers.

In the meantime I still have the 100 jacketed bullets. I guess I can buy 100 rifle primers to go with them, but what about the powder. I just don't want to buy yet more powder that is going to be used for a few rounds then sit there. I have some Clay's Universal, the Trail Boss and the Unique. Isn't there anything that will work with that? It doesn't have to be a reduced load, I'll do those with the lead bullets.

BTW. The rifle is a stock 1970 Winchester Model 94.

rcmodel
July 29, 2012, 04:16 PM
Clay's Universal, the Trail Boss and the Unique. Isn't there anything that will work with that?Yes. Lead bullets.

You need to buy some rifle powder to use your Hornady Interlok bullets.
IMR-4064 would be a good choice.

100 rounds will use not quite half of a 1 pound can to load them.

rc

Walkalong
July 29, 2012, 05:02 PM
I also have a couple of bottles of Trail Boss.Load it to 100% load density under the 170 Gr jacketed bullets. Do not compress it, and do not load it lighter.

Buy a cheaper bullet for playing around. Cheap pulled 147s will work, and be much cheaper, unless you are looking for accuracy, then you will have to buy a decent bullet, but I wouldn't waste those 170 Gr interlocks.

Centaur 1
July 29, 2012, 05:11 PM
The 30-30 is suuch a light round anyway that mild plinking rounds get boring after a while. I use RL-7 and gas checked cast bullets loaded to about 2000fps. They're still easy on the shoulder, but stout enough to let you know that you're not shooting a .22.

powell&hyde
July 29, 2012, 05:26 PM
The old saying for 30/30 using IMR 3031 was 30gr for a 170gr bullet and 31gr for a 150gr bullet.

FROGO207
July 29, 2012, 06:27 PM
No one has mentioned that the large pistol primers are shallower than large rifle primers and will probably be prone to misfiring as well as made softer and not safe for rifle pressures in particular. Go get some LR primers when you get your propellant of your choice. I do shoot 170 grain Laser Cast lead bullets with IMR 3031 in all my 30-30's with good results and no leading to speak of.

Thanks for the heads up :banghead: IMR 3031 not Hodgdon ---oops.

Eb1
July 29, 2012, 06:30 PM
Shoot the Trail Boss with the 170 grain Hornady's or use some 125 grain Jacketed HP from Sierra if you want to use Jacketed bullets and a reduced load.
Better yet, use 20 or 20.5 grains of H4985 with the 125 grain Jacketed HP as this is Hodgdon's reduced youth load.

You would probably be alright using 2400 in some reduced loads as well, but you'll have to decide that for yourself. I will not give you load data for 2400 and the 30-30.

Eb1
July 29, 2012, 06:31 PM
Never heard of H-3031, Frogo207.

Cosmoline
July 29, 2012, 06:34 PM
Ditto on the TB. I really find it much easier to work with than grease Unique. No double charges are possible, either.

Make sure you very thoroughly de-copper your bore with copper cleaner and elbow grease until there's no more green coming out before you shoot cast. Doing that really helped improve my cast loads out of the .30-30.

res7s
July 29, 2012, 07:17 PM
I talked to a tech at Sierra Bullets after reading an article in the Shooting Times touting 10.0gr of Unique as a universal rifle load. This was in the late 80's. I tried it and it worked well.

Give the folks at Sierra a call and ask them, before you try it. If you have any of the Sierra 125gr HP's they should be able to give you a pretty good low velocity small game load using Unique. I'd personally save the 150-170gr jacketed bullets for big game and either cast or buy some .311-.312"(for a 336) cast bullets or Hornady 100gr short jackets to plink with.

Steve C
July 29, 2012, 07:17 PM
Back to the OP equestion. I'd suggest you get some large rifle primers as large pistol primers are shorter in height than the rifle primers and since the primer polcket in the .30-30 case is deeper for the LRP you may experience FTF if the rifle's firing pin is of minimal length. The LPP may work but don't load up a bunch until you check to see if the go off reliably.

Lyman has published loads using Unique and other pistol powders with their lead bullets for the 30=30 for many years so no need to get a different powder.

popper
July 29, 2012, 09:47 PM
Carolina bullets has a good 170 LFN with GC for a good price(win 94 version). H4895 will let you go from youth to full loads in 30-30, unique works OK. Rifle primers, only way to go, but I've used LP before. Unique isn't position sensitive. Half jacket hornady are fun(~$15/100) with unique but accuracy is poor past 50 . Set your die for correct HS, probably won't need to trim.

mbopp
July 30, 2012, 12:47 AM
Remember - if you're going to load cast bullets you'll need to expand and flare the case neck with a Lyman "M" die or equivalent. This will prevent shaving lead off the bullet and ruining accuracy.

ArchAngelCD
July 30, 2012, 12:58 AM
I have been shooting 165gr Hard Cast bullets in the 30-30 using H4895 and a LR primer. They are very accurate out to 100 yards and probably more but I haven't shot them past 200 yards yet. I get no leading at all from the Missouri Bullets I'm shooting.

rsrocket1
July 30, 2012, 01:02 AM
My favorite plinker for .308 is a 110g Xtreme plated bullet (http://xtremebullets.com/plated.htm) (designated as 30 carbine) with 11 grains of Unique or 10 grains of Bullsye with a LRP. 1800 fps, 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards, recoil and noise of a 22 magnum.

100g Hornady short jacket #3005's work well also, but are more expensive.

popper
July 30, 2012, 11:45 AM
CB Co. has .311 lubed and GC, MBC and lazercast only have .310, no GC. Xtreme in 40SW are very good, but I changed to cast for everything.

Dudemeister
August 3, 2012, 02:36 PM
OK, so I've taken "some" of the advice here, and got a 1K box of CCI #200 rifle primers. I also bought 500 rounds of Bear Creek, 115gr. .309 molly lubed cast bullets.

I will start loading these with Trail Boss, but I still plan on (eventually) using the Unique powder.

I've already cleaned, deprimed, resized and reprimed the cases, but I still have some questions:

1. This is my first experience reloading for a rifle (I've previously reloaded pistol), and I realized the dies do not include a means to flare the case neck to accept the bullet. I can barely fit the bullet in the neck, is this how it should be?

2. While a 170gr bullet fits nearly half it's length in the case, the 115gr has less then 3/16" to the crimp groove. Is this going to be enough to properly hold the bullet? Should I push the bullet in further (up the line indicated by the green arrow). It will reduce the OAL from 2.55" to 2.50"

http://digistealth.com/Public/Guns/Reloading/30-30%20bullets.jpg

3. As you can see from the pictures above, the lead bullet groove is pretty deep. Do I crimp the bullet into this? It would be a pretty dramatic crimp and I don't think the case mouth would last too long.

4. The Lee die set I got also included a factory crimp die. Should I use it? I don't think it would work on the deep groove of the lead bullet anyway. I can see it work on the 170gr. or if I push the lead bullet deeper into the case, past the groove. Obviously it's not necessary, or it wouldn't be optional, but now that I have it, should I bother with it?

Meanwhile, I'm still looking for a reduced load recipe, but this time for the 115gr. lead with Trail Boss (or Unique).

James2
August 3, 2012, 03:15 PM
Go back and read #19. Yes, you should bell for cast bullets. Yes, I would seat to the green arrow.

3031 is a good powder for 30-30 and jacketed bullets.

Sorry, I am not much help on lead bullets for 30-30 rifle. I have always used jacketed. I work up a good load for my rifle, and stick to it, since I hunt a lot I want to know what my rifle will do and always do, so messing around with different loads fouls up that "always do" theory. Once the load is found and the sights adjusted, no more fooling around. Just shoot.... plenty..... and pretty soon making a good score with that 30-30 is just second nature and no need to remember what load is in it today, hold high or low to compensate for the load. You ain't got time for that when game is in your sights.

I do cast for handguns, but have never used lead in a rifle. You should be able to get some inexpensive plinking loads worked up with lead bullets and Unique.

Have fun.

PS I do not like the "factory crimp die" and would never use it.

James2
August 3, 2012, 03:23 PM
My old Lyman manual lists for 30-30 and a 125 grain cast bullet: suggested gr 13.0 Unique.

popper
August 3, 2012, 06:20 PM
FCD works fine on the 30-30. Adjust the die so it crimps at the edge of the mouth, (use a LIGHT crimp or you will crush the CB) length of CB doesn't make any difference. You can use unique for those. The large groove is lube groove, the one above it is the crimp groove. Load some dummys to just below the crimp groove, no crimp. See if they get marks on the CB, seat deeper until you don't get marks. crimp there. Belling can be done with needle nose pliers, push in and rotate - isn't too accurate but works. That is a pointy CB so SINGLE load them, you have a TUBE mag.

35 Whelen
August 3, 2012, 08:12 PM
Trust me when I say you're good to go with large pistol primers using reduced loads in your 30-30. Since about '05 when we moved to the country and I set up my own range, I've fired literally thousands of reduced cast and jacketed bullet loads, mostly cast. In the first three months after I set up the range, I used almost an entire carton (1000) of CCI-300's in these loads.

In Feb. '09 I began shooting High Power locally and use cast loads exclusively. I fire around 10 matches per year and an occasional MBAR match. That pretty easily adds up to 1000 rounds per annum not including testing, evaluating and practicing. Every single load I've fired without exception has used large pistol or large pistol magnum primers. (Performance-wise I can't tell much difference in standard and magnum though I prefer magnums when charges exceed 20 grs) The calibers include 7.62x54r, 303 Br, 308 Win, 30-06 and most of all 7.5x55 all using Bullseye, Red Dot, AA#7, AL2400, SR4759 and IMR-4198. The heavier loads, in the 308 & 30-06 used up 21 grs. of 4198 and 22.0 grs. of 2400. Not a single pierced primer or failure to fire. One must remember that cartridges such as the 480 Ruger and 475 Linebaugh use large pistol primers and operate at over 45K psi.

Regarding Unique and jacketed bullets, I used to load 12.0 grs. and a Hornady .312" 150 gr. SP in both the 303 Br and the 7.62x54r. This load was very accurate in both calibers. I'd not hesitate to reduce it a bit and use it in your 30-30.

If you have good neck tension with the cast bullet, they shouldn't slip as recoil with your light loads will be very minimal. If you're concerned, place the nose of a bullet in a loaded cartridge on your loading bench, press on the base of the case and see if you can push the bullet in. Betcha can't. But if it does or you're still worried, put a light crimp where you show the green arrow.

I measured a few of the primers I have on hand and came up with the following:
Pistol:
Fed. 150 & 155- .120"
CCI-300- .122"
CCI-350- .118"
WLP- .120"

Rifle:
WLR- .127"
CCI-200 & 250- .124"

Real world difference in the average heights is about .005". That's about the thickness of a piece of printer paper.

35W

1911Tuner
August 3, 2012, 08:33 PM
Can't use pistol primers. Large rifle primer pockets are too deep for pistol primers.

35 Whelen
August 3, 2012, 10:08 PM
Can't use pistol primers. Large rifle primer pockets are too deep for pistol primers.
I'd love to hear your experiences.

35W

PO2Hammer
August 3, 2012, 10:22 PM
I would recommend the Lee universal expander (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die) as an all purpose flaring tool. It has two different flaring cones that cover all calibers and it's cheap.

Trail Boss was made for lead bullets and the 30-30. Enough TB to reach 1,000 fps with a 115 grain lead bullet with give you about 60 load density, low velocity spreads and top accuracy. I doubt Unique will do any better.

R.W.Dale
August 3, 2012, 10:33 PM
I'd love to hear your experiences.

35W

Now that I have my 30/30 bfr back I fully intend to try your advice re pistol primers for trail boss loads rather than burn up my precious LR primers

Ill report on my results.

I have tried pistol primers in 7.62x39 but they craters badly at those pressures and as a reverse I've used large rifle primers in 45win mag (not 458) cases to handle higher pressures and give more consistent velocities in a savage bolt action.

I have no doubt that you're correct in your assessment 35w

Dudemeister
August 3, 2012, 11:33 PM
According to this IMR PDF (http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf), "Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets".

Following the instructions listed in that PDF, It looks like for the 115gr lead bullets, my starting load is at 9gr., and for the 170gr jacketed the starting load is about 8gr.

I also found some Unique recipes at Lever Gun Performance Studies (http://www.gmdr.com/lever/3030w170_dat.htm). They call for a starting load of 6gr under a 170gr bullet which generates just under 1100fps.

As for the pistol primers, I had originally primed 10 cases, so I inserted each primed case manually in the chamber and fired it: 100% ignition. The cases are now re-primed with rifle primers, but I have no doubt the pistol primers would work just fine.

I also ordered a Lee Universal Neck expanding die and a Perfect powder measure to complete the setup.

As a side note, since my normal Lee Turret setup is currently in a closet, I'm using a Lee Breech Lock Hand Press for the 30-30. So far I'm pleasantly surprised by the ease of use. I was afraid that case resizing and decapping would be a bear, but it's actually pretty smooth.

A Pause for the Coz
August 3, 2012, 11:38 PM
I will pop a bit in here. I have been playing with the 30-30 for the better part of two years trying to find good cast plinking loads. Also some lower powder jacketed loads.

For full power jacketed I use I 3031, H4895, BLC-2 and H335 Other than not really liking BLC-2 I havent done enough to find one really any better than the others. SO I load what I have on hand.

Cast is different story. I have loaded about 1500 different combos of those in two years.

Store purchased cast I use lazer cast 170 gr sized at .309 and .310.
Gas check and not. These bullets are very hard cast some thing like 23Bn.

These do not seem to react to well to pistol powder loads. Cant even get them to print in 8 inches at 100 yards.
With the noted exception of Trail Boss Powder. 9 grains of trail Boss will clover leaf these at 50 yards all day long. Must have to do with the higher pressure this powder is working at.
This bullet also works well with H4895 gas checked. You need to have the pressure on to get these to fly.

The main reason I added that about the store purchased cast is because if your not casting your own. You are buying them. if your buying them your getting hard cast. Hard cast in my opinion and experience is not the right mix for low velocity plinking. Too bad too because I have about 1500 of them.

Casting my own using a softer melt maybe 13 Bn to 17Bn. And thats good because petty much any lead you find will work good.
Using the LEE 150 gr and a NOE 170 gr bullet.

I get pretty good results with Unique and also with Universal.
8.5 gr Unique seems to be the sweet spot No gas checked is fine.

But the best of the best is 16 gr of 2400 behind the LEE 150 gr sized to .309 gas checked. Kicks them out of both my M336 and a Savage 340 at about 1800 fps and hits where you aim them every time.

Load some up and see for your self.

170gr NOE plain base and GC base.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_8362.jpg

This is what you can get with the 2400 load at 100 yards.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_8302.jpg

Another plinking load I have been playing with some. Is to take a 115gr 32-20 pistol bullet and size them down to .310
These make a pretty light, cheap, Low recoil load.
Again using hard cast bullets, the results pretty much sucked. Except with Trail Boss.
Soft cast again does a fantastic job. Ahead of 8 gr Unique.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_7778.jpg

There now... Go have fun.

Eb1
August 4, 2012, 12:33 AM
I thought 2400 would do pretty well in a 30-30.

GooseGestapo
August 4, 2012, 04:20 AM
1. Even at .313", a cast bullet isn't to big for the .30/30 if it chambers easily. With a Marlin w/microgroove rifling, you'll get much improved accuracy with .311" or larger. I size all my cast bullets to .311" for .30cal rifles. My .30/06 also shoots better with the .311" bullets.

2. #2400 works very, very well with cast bullets. Will work with reduced velocity loads with jacketed bullets. Just be very careful of double charges. Double check each case with a pen light to make sure they aren't double charged. A double charge will wreck a l/a rifle.
I've used 12.5gr of #2400 with cast bullets in .30/30, but generally prefer 10.0gr of Unique.

Remember, these are "nerf balls". A friend of my older brother used a Lee 150gr FN w/o gas-check, unsized over 7.5gr of Unique to take a white-tail doe. He'd forgot he'd loaded it as he was going to shoot a rabbit, but rabbit got away. While walking back to camp, he jumped a doe. Shot the doe in the ribs, angling away. Bullet raked through 18" of deer and exited with a 2"x1/2" exit wound. Deer ran ~75yds and dropped.


3. Do use the Lee factory crimp die. Also be sure to trim your cases to uniform length before loading, and DO use the expander die, or a Lyman "M" die to expand the cases before seating the bullets...

Walkalong
August 4, 2012, 08:37 AM
Can't use pistol primers. Large rifle primer pockets are too deep for pistol primers.
I'd love to hear your experiences.
Facts:

Large rifle primers stand higher than large pistol primers, and large rifle brass primer pockets are deeper to handle the higher large rifle primer.

A fully seated large pistol primer will be farther away from the firing pin.

Large rifle primers use thicker cups designed for higher pressures.

Potential problems:

Some guns may fire them fine, while others may not, due to the firing pin not being able to reach it and give it a sufficient whack.

If you try to run max rifle pressures with them you can get in trouble, assuming they work in your rifle.

Obviously they will fire in some guns. Be careful using them in rifle calibers. Use common sense.

1911Tuner
August 4, 2012, 09:14 AM
A fully seated large pistol primer will be farther away from the firing pin.

If it even seats to the bottom of the pocket...and if it doesn't, misfires and/or hangfires are the usual result.

I'd love to hear your experiences.

All of'em? Put on the coffee. You're gonna be here a while.

35 Whelen
August 4, 2012, 09:23 AM
I have tried pistol primers in 7.62x39 but they craters badly at those pressures and as a reverse I've used large rifle primers in 45win mag (not 458) cases to handle higher pressures and give more consistent velocities in a savage bolt action.

Sometimes primer cratering is not caused by pressure at all, rather by the hole through which the firing pin protrudes being large enough to allow metal from the primer cup to enter. As I said earlier, large pistol primers are used in cartridges such as the 375 Linebaugh and 480 Ruger whose pressures exceed 45,000 psi.

35W

1911Tuner
August 4, 2012, 09:33 AM
The majority of the time, cratering is caused by a weak striker spring or excessive headspace.

A Pause for the Coz
August 4, 2012, 09:39 AM
The reason I hit on the 8.5 gr of Unique is because I ran a ladder from 7gr to 11.5 gr in 1/2 gr increments at 50 yards.
The changes in group size was very pronounced. You could see with each set the groups get smaller and smaller until I hit 9 gr then the groups opened back up.
At 11 gr it was at 5 inches at 50 yards and stringing.

Barrel harmonics is very important with these powder/ Bullet combos.

The 16 gr 2400 load no ladder is necessary. Thats the tried and true 30 cal cast bullet load.
Use it in all 30 cal stuff down to the 30-30 and accept that it is the one. because it is.

Oh and another great reason to shoot cast bullets. You will never wear a barrel out shooting cast. Unlike jacketed.
I can shoot 50 30-30's at one time and the barrel is not to hot to touch. try that after 5 jacketed shots.
They actually shoot better the more you shoot. A slightly dirty barrel is better. ( fouling shot is true)

But dont just accept my word read this.
http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf

Walkalong
August 4, 2012, 02:12 PM
If it even seats to the bottom of the pocket...True enough, some setups will not be able to seat them fully. Never tried it myself, the books all said is was a bad idea, and their reasons all made sense.

Dudemeister
August 10, 2012, 08:14 PM
I just finished loading 50 rounds using the Hornady 170r. jacketed bullets. I used 8gr. of Trail Boss, which is 70% of the full (uncompressed) load, and the IMR recommended starting load. I'll be running those next time at the range, and we'll see how they perform.

Meanwhile I also loaded 50 rounds with the Bear Creek lead bullets. The same formula was applied to these, so the starting load was 9gr. for this 115gr. bullet. Seating the bullet produces a slight ring around the bullet that can be seen in the images below. I didn't use the factory crimp, just the normal roll crimp the seating die applies. The bullet is seated just barely above the crimp groove, producing a OAL of 2.525".

http://digistealth.com/Public/Guns/Reloading/30-30_finished_1.jpg http://digistealth.com/Public/Guns/Reloading/30-30_finished_2.jpg

That is a pointy CB so SINGLE load them, you have a TUBE mag.

This is just about the only concern I have. Is the round nose on these bullets going to cause problems and ignite the primer of the bullet in front of it.?

So I call on all you experts that have loaded the 30-30. IS this something I should worry about?

Thanks

R.W.Dale
August 10, 2012, 08:37 PM
Its not something I'd worry about but I'm shooting a revolver. But in your case id stick to only single loading them as you have the combination of softer primers combined with hard RN bullets.

Great timing, I was about to bump this thread myself as I just got to do some load testing of my own.

7.5 g of trail boss in a FC case under a 147g FMJ ignited with a WOLF large pistol primer is good for 950 fps from a 10" BFR. accuracy was good @ 25 yds and the spent casings would fall out of an upturned chamber, ejector rod not needed

Dudemeister
August 10, 2012, 08:52 PM
But in your case id stick to only single loading them as you have the combination of softer primers combined with hard RN bullets.
Are you referring to the pistol primers?

Other than 4 cases I primed with the large pistol primers, then subsequently re-primed with rifle primers, everything is currently primed with CCI #200 LRP's.

R.W.Dale
August 10, 2012, 08:56 PM
I didn't catch that part.

I still don't like that bullet profile for tube mag use though, just an opinion so take it for what its worth. Just curious why didn't you order bear creeks 170f fp bullets for $1 more per package?

Keep me posted on how these shoot though

Dudemeister
August 10, 2012, 09:21 PM
I had both boxes in my hand, but there were a couple of things that made me get those.


First I was looking for a lighter load, so 115gr. vs. 170gr was one of the considerations. Second, the price is the same, but the 170gr box only has 400 bullets, the 115gr. has 500.

But ultimately it wasn't the money, it was the idea of a lighter load.

ArchAngelCD
August 11, 2012, 05:57 AM
Dudemeister,
You said you loaded 50 rounds using the Hornady 170gr jacketed bullets. You do realize IMR recommends you NOT use Trail Boss with anything other than Lead bullets, right? I have read it's not safe...

Pete D.
August 11, 2012, 07:32 AM
When I started loading for the 500 S&W, there were two types of cases being manufactured. One was for use with LRPs, the other with LPPs. This required attention. The biggest problem by far was using a rifle primer in a case that was spec'd for a pistol primer. The primer will not seat deeply enough and will jam the cylinder as it rotates. The other way round never caused a problem.

Unique in the .30-30. Some years ago, I shot postal matches regularly with the Cast Bullet Association. I had some success using T/C Contender with a 10" barrel in .30-30. The load was the Lee 120 grain RNGC and seven grains of Unique, LRP. ES for that load was about 10-12 fps, IIRC. Very consistent.
Pete

Dudemeister
August 11, 2012, 11:26 AM
Dudemeister,
You said you loaded 50 rounds using the Hornady 170gr jacketed bullets. You do realize IMR recommends you NOT use Trail Boss with anything other than Lead bullets, right? I have read it's not safe...

Actually, IMR does state in this pamphlet on reduced loads (http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf), that "Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets".

So unless something has changed since, and if you have a link to the contrary I would really appreciated it, it looks as if Trail Boss is good for any type of bullet, Lead or Jacketed.

Shinbone
August 11, 2012, 11:30 AM
How do you flair a 30-30 case mouth?

popper
August 11, 2012, 04:13 PM
Dudemeister - Roll crimp? not needed, just use a light taper crimp, lightly use the roll crimp die. No just use 1 in the tube and 1 chambered. I tried 170 LFN with 71/2 unique and got lousy accuracy, I guess I need to do a ladder. Got some 2400 to try now. Anyone have a 170ish LFN no GC load with 2400? Flare with needle nose pliers or get a real flaring die - Lee universal, RCBS cowboy or lyman M die.

Dudemeister
August 12, 2012, 02:22 AM
I used a Lee Universal Expanding die. It works really well and it's fast.

As for the roll crimp, I should have just said "crimp"s I'm not exactly sure what type of crimp the standard seating die makes. It looks slightly rounded, so I called it a roll crimp, but it could very well be tapered.

I did have the same thought, load only 2 at the time, that way there aren't any rounds one behind the other when I shoot them. I also considered loading a bunch of dummies with a live primer and bullet, but no powder then fire a few manually fed live rounds and see if anything goes "little bang" in the tube.

Walkalong
August 12, 2012, 10:17 AM
Nothing wrong with roll crimping .30-30 into a cannelure on a jacketed bullet or a crimp groove on a lead bullet. The cases will need to be trimmed for good uniformity of the crimps.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=126790&stc=1&d=1283098860

Dudemeister
August 12, 2012, 04:07 PM
Walkalong, did you ever have any issues shooting those round nose bullets out of your rifle? Are you using them in a tube fed rifle?

I mean, the round nose profile on those bullets looks very similar to the profile on the lead bullets I have, and there appears to be some concern here over them detonating the primer in the bullet in front.

Walkalong
August 12, 2012, 05:41 PM
Those SP Core-Lokt bullets (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601157469/remington-core-lokt-bullets-30-30-winchester-308-diameter-150-grain-soft-point) are designed for .30-30 and tube magazines, compared to these PSP Core-Lokt bullets (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601168026/remington-core-lokt-bullets-30-caliber-308-diameter-150-grain-pointed-soft-point). I shoot them in my tube fed .30-30, as do many hunters.

Fishslayer
August 13, 2012, 09:43 PM
3. As you can see from the pictures above, the lead bullet groove is pretty deep. Do I crimp the bullet into this? It would be a pretty dramatic crimp and I don't think the case mouth would last too long.


That big groove is for lube. Since the bullet is moly coated it isn't used. In a bare lead boolit that groove would be packed with a greasy looking lube.

Dudemeister
August 16, 2012, 02:23 AM
Well, I'm about to try a new experiment.

As many of you who have been following this thread have pointed out, the lead bullets I used have a somewhat pointy nose which may ignite the primer of the adjacent bullet.

So today I loaded 6 "dummy" rounds with primer and bullet only, no powder. The idea is to load the tube with these dummies, then manually feed and fire a few real rounds to see if the concussion of the shot would trigger a chain reaction in the dummy rounds.

I plan on taking the rifle to the range this weekend to try my experiment. But before I do, I have a couple of concerns:

1. What would be the worst that could happen if the dummy rounds go off? Could they damage the rifle?
2. If by some fluke I end up chambering and firing one of the dummies, would the bullet clear the barrel, or would it end up lodged in there?
3. If I do end up with a lodged bullet, what is the easiest way to get it out? can it be pushed out (forward or back)?

35 Whelen
August 16, 2012, 02:48 AM
Well, I'm about to try a new experiment.

As many of you who have been following this thread have pointed out, the lead bullets I used have a somewhat pointy nose which may ignite the primer of the adjacent bullet.

So today I loaded 6 "dummy" rounds with primer and bullet only, no powder. The idea is to load the tube with these dummies, then manually feed and fire a few real rounds to see if the concussion of the shot would trigger a chain reaction in the dummy rounds.

I plan on taking the rifle to the range this weekend to try my experiment. But before I do, I have a couple of concerns:

1. What would be the worst that could happen if the dummy rounds go off? Could they damage the rifle?
2. If by some fluke I end up chambering and firing one of the dummies, would the bullet clear the barrel, or would it end up lodged in there?
3. If I do end up with a lodged bullet, what is the easiest way to get it out? can it be pushed out (forward or back)?
1. Nothing. I recently inadvertently left the powder out of some of my 7.5x55 rounds. They too were loaded with lead bullets. Chambered one, pulled the trigger, "Click". Same results for 8 more rounds and that's what will happen if you inadvertently chamber and fire one of your dummy rounds. As long as the neck is on the 30-30 cartridge, it'll have a death grip on the bullet that a primer alone won't overcome.
2. See answer #1.
3. See answer #1. If by some fluke the bullet does manage to leave the case, it won't go far enough into the rifling to amount to anything and will be able to be easily tapped out with a cleaning rod.

The bullet you plan on using won't set off a primer in the magazine for a couple of reasons. First, if this occured, it would be due to recoil. You're using a really light load and as a result, recoil will be non-existent. Second, as another wise poster already mentioned, the little bullet you plan on using is no more "pointy" than many factory bullets. So, relax.

As my wise mother used to say, "Don't borrow trouble".

35W

popper
August 16, 2012, 05:05 PM
Primer by itself in a large rifle case probably won't push the bullet out of the case. Pistol case is different, it will probably go 1/2-1". You might not want to load a tube mag full so if it does leave the case the spring will have some give..

Jayhawk Dan
August 16, 2012, 06:22 PM
DON'T do any reloading, Dudemeister, until you've obtained and read a reloading manual for reloading the .30 WCF (.30-30) cartridge!! :uhoh: This is a fundamental step in reloading safely!

Jayhawk Dan

Dudemeister
August 20, 2012, 01:23 AM
DON'T do any reloading, Dudemeister, until you've obtained and read a reloading manual for reloading the .30 WCF (.30-30) cartridge!! :uhoh: This is a fundamental step in reloading safely!

Jayhawk Dan
Oops... A little late....

Dudemeister
August 26, 2012, 01:04 AM
Today I took my first loads to the range.

I took both the 115gr lead, and the 170gr. jacketed along with 20 factory loads (Remington 150gr. Core-Lokt).

I first shot 5 factory rounds to zero the rifle in. Since it's been a couple of months since I shot the rifle, I had forgotten how much kick it has. I know that there are those here who'll tell you that 30-30 rounds are light, but that's now what my shoulder was telling me.

Then I shot my first rounds of the 115gr. lead. WHAT A DIFFERENCE IN RECOIL !!. Not quite a .22, but very light, a pleasure to shoot. :D:D

But how well did they do? My first few shots were really low, about 10" below the bullseye, so I raised the rear sight 2 notches up the ramp, which brought me just about 1" below dead center. Windage wise, I was more or less on.

My groups were not the best, I was shooting seated, and resting my left arm on the table, but I still managed to group about 4-5". Not all that great, but considering I'm shooting without any optics, and that the front sight dot is as big as the bullseye at that range, not bad either.

I next tried the 170gr. not quite, but nearly as soft as the others in recoil, but they shot a lot lower than the leads, and quite a bit to the left. I'm not sure why they dropped so much, I mean at least 6" low and 3" to the left.

I thought that maybe I had done something or that I somehow lost the zero on the sights, but no, I reloaded a few 115gr. leads and they were back up where they should have been.

So after shooting only 15 rounds of the 170gr. and not liking that load, I concentrated on shooting the 115gr. At the end, the 6" bullseye was pretty much shredded, a very satisfactory outing.

All in all, I think that if I want to shoot for accuracy, I'll have to buy a scope and mount for this rifle. I'm sure I can shrink the groups down to 2" or less. As for the load, I think that my 115gr. bullet with 9gr. of Trail Boss is my new favorite load.

Note: I also found out that my freeloaded rounds were not properly sized. They would not seat fully and because of it, I had to literally crunch the lever down on each one just so I can overcome the trigger/lever safety on the rifle.

When I got home I started to look at the spent rounds and realized that they were not necked all the way, so the case shoulder was actually too high, preventing the round from seating in the chamber all the way. After inspecting my sizing die I found that I hadn't screwed it in as far down as possible, and there was a gap of at least 0.05" at the top travel of the ram. I've now adjusted the die so there's barely any visible daylight at the top of the stroke between the bottom of the die and the top of the holder. I sized and dropped some shells in the rifle and they chamber perfectly now.

Is there a way to resize the neck & shoulder without taking the bullets apart ( I still have about 100 rounds I had already done).

zxcvbob
August 26, 2012, 01:18 AM
You might try about 10 grains of Red Dot or 12 grains of Unique with 150 to 170 grain bullets (cast bullets will work better because there's less bore friction) The large pistol primers will be fine *if* you seat them all the way and if your firing pin is long enough to set them off.

BTW, they don't look like it but these are max loads, or at least close to it.

Sport45
August 26, 2012, 01:54 AM
Is there a way to resize the neck & shoulder without taking the bullets apart ( I still have about 100 rounds I had already done).

The Redding Body die will do this, but it's expensive enough I wouldn't buy one for 100 rounds.

Redding 30-30 Body Die at MidwayUSA (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/493641/redding-body-die-30-30-winchester)

Keep in mind the 115gr bullet is a "plinking" load only and don't try to chase good accuracy with it. I imagine the bullet is way too short for your rifling to properly stabilize.

Dudemeister
August 26, 2012, 01:58 AM
"You might try about 10 grains of Red Dot or 12 grains of Unique with 150 to 170 grain bullets"

Yeah, I'm not looking for max loads at all. I really like my reduced loads with Trail Boss and wimpy 115gr. lead

Also, 12gr of Unique? Isn't that a bit heavy? I thought that about 10.5gr was the max for a 170gr. bullet and Unique

ljnowell
August 26, 2012, 02:18 AM
Casting my own using a softer melt maybe 13 Bn to 17Bn. And thats good because petty much any lead you find will work good.
Using the LEE 150 gr and a NOE 170 gr bullet.


I noticed when browsing the Missouri Bullet website they casted for 30/30 in 18bhn. I really thought that wouldnt be enough, but I have never loaded cast in a rifle. I guess when I pick up a 30/30 this year I will try some of thier cast bullets.

zxcvbob
August 26, 2012, 02:30 AM
Also, 12gr of Unique? Isn't that a bit heavy? I thought that about 10.5gr was the max for a 170gr. bullet and Unique

Yes it is heavy. 10 would be a good starting point and 11 a reasonable maximum. But according to Quickload you can go to 12 (and a little beyond) safely and that's where I got the number. I thought it was OK since I rounded it down. :o

I don't load .30-30, but I do sometimes shoot max loads of Red Dot in .30-06 -- it's an accurate and enjoyable (and cheap) load.

Dudemeister
August 26, 2012, 03:17 AM
Yes it is heavy. 10 would be a good starting point and 11 a reasonable maximum. But according to Quickload you can go to 12 (and a little beyond) safely and that's where I got the number. I thought it was OK since I rounded it down. :o

I don't load .30-30, but I do sometimes shoot max loads of Red Dot in .30-06 -- it's an accurate and enjoyable (and cheap) load.
To me, max loads are not enjoyable. Especially when I shoot them out of guns that have not comfort amenities like recoil pads.

I guess I'm getting old and fragile, cause the few factory shots I ran through the rifle today left an impression on my shoulder. This probably explains why I'm always on a quest for a light, reduced load.

popper
August 26, 2012, 05:18 PM
No, you will have to pull the bullets. You should resize, save the primers, just resize SLOW. Your factory rounds should give you close to proper headspace measurements. Lube the case and neck, mark the shoulder with a sharpie, Keep slightly sizoing the case till it marks the shoulder, then a tad more. I use 7 1/2 gr unique for 110 gr and 170 gr CBs, about the same recoil. Lighter Cbs will shoot faster (higher POI).

zxcvbob
August 26, 2012, 06:03 PM
To me, max loads are not enjoyable. Especially when I shoot them out of guns that have not comfort amenities like recoil pads.

I guess I'm getting old and fragile, cause the few factory shots I ran through the rifle today left an impression on my shoulder. This probably explains why I'm always on a quest for a light, reduced load.

A maximum pressure load of shotgun powder in a rifle cartridge is still a low recoil load.

Pete D.
August 29, 2012, 06:47 AM
Despite what Quickload spits out, those two loads - 10 grains of Red Dot and 12 grains of Unique are both over maximum in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
Lyman lists 9.0 grs of RD and 11 grs of Unique as max with a 150 grain cast bullet. For a 170 slightly less at 8.5grs RD and 10.6 Unique.
Just adding info.
Pete

Critter getter
December 27, 2012, 12:46 PM
Been loading Unique in 30-30 cast load for 20 years now. Works great.:o I would really stay away from using the pistol primers in the rifle cartridges. The Lyman manual uses Rifle primers in Rifle cartridges....and they cost the same anyway.

Hungry1
December 27, 2012, 07:00 PM
Throwing my .02 in,

For 30-30 cast loads, I've excellent results with 18 gr of IMR4198 and a G/C 170 FP sized to .311 out of my Remlin Micro Groove.

Large Rifle Primer. :)

DeadFlies
December 27, 2012, 09:20 PM
30-30, cast lead, and Trailboss go together like bread, peanut butter and jelly. So simple yet so delicious.

Unique works well too but the possibility of double or overcharging is a worry I don't need.

jcwit
December 27, 2012, 09:30 PM
30-30, cast lead, and Trailboss go together like bread, peanut butter and jelly. So simple yet so delicious.

Unique works well too but the possibility of double or overcharging is a worry I don't need.

I concur.

I've developed a mild cast bullet plinking load. Using a Lee cast bullet #90362 at 113 grs. and 10 1/5 grains of Trail Boss. Excellent accuracy for a lever carbine and a pleasure to shoot all afternoon.

James2
December 28, 2012, 02:14 AM
Lyman Neck Expander M Die 30 Caliber Long

Someone asked how to bell a 30-30 casing.

I have loaded for 30-30 for many years. It was the first caliber I loaded for. I have not used lead bullets. Might be fun for some plinking ammo, however to get the most out of your 30-30 you need to use something like Hornady 150 Gr. Round Nose jacketed bullet and 31 gr of IMR 3031. Now you have a deerslayer round.

DeadFlies
December 28, 2012, 12:34 PM
Lyman Neck Expander M Die 30 Caliber Long

Someone asked how to bell a 30-30 casing.
.

I have found that a quick way to expand the mouth of the case for easy seating of cast bullets is to use a small needle-nose pliers. It takes a bit of practice to get it right consistently but it only take a second or two and it works great as long as you give it a crimp when you're done.

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