.308 For Home Defense?


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BluedRevolver
July 29, 2012, 04:14 PM
I was looking at some low-penetrating .308 hollow point and ballistic tip loads from Hornady and Corbon.

In a handy rifle like a socom16 or something, would this be practical for self defense? You get many more rounds than a shotgun in a similar sized weapon with reasonable penetration. (Only obvious problem is noise and flash, which, if I can get the wife to agree, could be remedied with a short suppressor)

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Guillermo
July 29, 2012, 04:16 PM
over penetration would seem a problem in an urban environment even with light rounds. And a miss could be a bad thing.

just how big are the perps in your area? :what:

19-3Ben
July 29, 2012, 04:18 PM
The problem I can foresee is that the .308 is well past the point of diminishing returns as a CQB round. It's not really going to stop someone significantly better than a bunch of smaller/less powerful rifle rounds but it will have deafening thunderous crack inside a home as well as a flash that will be like a stun grenade going off.

I wouldn't do it unless it's for "property defense" and you've got 100 yards on any side of your house that might need to be defended.

rcmodel
July 29, 2012, 04:19 PM
.308 flash & blast out of a 16" SOCOM would be quite enough for me to quickly change my mind.

That sucker will peel the wall-paper off the walls and set it on fire inside a house!!

rc

TexasPatriot.308
July 29, 2012, 04:45 PM
yup, the muzzle blast alone should stun any perp, and in a house you too, and I doubt you are gonna be wearing hearing protection at the time.....get real, there are so many better, reasonable choices.

ByAnyMeans
July 29, 2012, 04:56 PM
I agree with the fact there are many pros to choosing a rifle over a shotgun as a home-defense long arm. However, I would choose a 5.56 chambered rifle over a .308. I would also seriously consider hearing protection being kept with the rifle or spending the money for a stamp and purchasing a suppressor. Even better if you spend for another stamp and shorten the rifles barrel. If your going to do it then do it right.

YMMV, and the above statement is made by a guy who uses a trusted pump action for home defense. I spend my money on busting clays and running drills with the above mentioned shotgun than building the rifle I describe above which would be used if I ever get around to getting it.

Sam1911
July 29, 2012, 05:04 PM
Yup. You could successfully defend yourself with a double rifle in .600 Nitro Express.

But you'll agree that there's no need for that kind of power and it's going to come with some drawbacks. (Recoil, blast, bulk, cost to practice, practice, PRACTICE!)

A .308 in any rifle is somewhere on the "diminishing returns" end of the spectrum as well. There's plenty of cartridges and weapons that will do the job just as well, but with less blast and recoil (keeping you more in control and faster on the follow-up), less penetration risk, and with costs that are much easier to handle when firing thousands of rounds in making yourself proficient with the weapon.

If that's what you HAVE, by all means get some of the TAP type rounds and practice until you are one with the gun. If you're deciding what to buy for that role, there are better choices.

RCArms.com
July 29, 2012, 05:05 PM
If you're using this as a justifying argument on the wife to get a suppressor for it, well good to go. However there are far better choices available for HD/SD that a .308 Winchester M1A SOCOM rifle.

As stated, a 12 gauge pump would be exceptionally hard to beat as a HD/SD long gun. I am also very partial to 9mm carbines like the Beretta Storm.

Don

adelbridge
July 29, 2012, 06:15 PM
You can mentally play out and practice all the home defense scenarios you brain can spit out and if something were to happen I can promise you it will be something you haven't thought of. If you like the SOCOM get it but if you have a lot of people in the house it may be an issue.

788Ham
July 29, 2012, 06:55 PM
Get 12 or a 20 ga. shotgun, if you happen to miss, you won't kill the guy down the street 5 blocks away! The shotgun will take care of any intruder coming into the house, leave the .308 for this years deer season.

pat701
July 29, 2012, 07:04 PM
get a 20ga. shotgun.

14427H
July 29, 2012, 07:24 PM
Zombie prevention maybe? But I do like the old Thompson machine gun ad with the cowboy on his porch blasting away.

Big diference in "defending your home" and "defending IN your home".

wrs840
July 29, 2012, 07:30 PM
Probably a tad stout for indoors.

dnilson
July 29, 2012, 07:44 PM
I agree with what most of the others have said. A .308 is WAY more firepower than you need for home defense. Also, I'd be less worried about the noise than the penetration. Depending on the type of home and neighborhood you live in, not only could it shoot through several walls, it could potentially go straight into your neighbor's home!!!!! Plus you have to have a plan. I have a 556 and a .308 (being built) but also have a 12 gauge shotgun with a light and loaded bandelaro, a .40 cal Glock with crimson trace and IWB holster and a .45 cal Glock with light/laser also in an IWB holster, all under the edge of my bed (near my head) in their holsters (all loaded with HD ammo). I also have IWB magazine holsters for both of the Glocks. I have several other handguns but this is my home defense set up. If anyone ever broke in, I'd lock my bedroom door, grab the 12 gauge and rack it...if they hear that they may just take off :neener:. If they come after you, at least you're ready for them. Then I'd put the .45 Glock and extra mag, at my side. Then the .40 Glock and extra mag goes in my back (DO NO FORGET TO LOCK AND LOAD YOUR PISTOLS). Then call 911! Remember...when seconds count, the police are just minutes away :cuss:!!!! BTW, I mean NO DISRESPECT towards LEOs!!!! It was just a joke I heard and thought it was funny and true (not they're fault though...they CAN'T be anywhere in seconds!). If you have children or other family in the house, you'll have to get to them (otherwise just stay in your bedroom). Try to get to your family, then just stay there rather than trying to get everyone back to your bedroom. You should have locks on ALL your bedroom doors. Put everyone in the closet, then get behind the bed or move a piece of heavy furniture around for cover. If they break through the door, blast away...they asked for it!!! :mad:

If you're just trying to justify getting a .308, tell your wife that there may be black bears where you plan to hunt and a 556 just won't take them down.;)

The_Armed_Therapist
July 29, 2012, 08:11 PM
No, no, and no! :eek:... Only situation in which a .308 makes a good home defense weapon is one in which it's your only weapon. Use another tool and/or save up for one ASAP. Pump shotguns can be had for $200.

BluedRevolver
July 29, 2012, 08:22 PM
Well, it's sounding like it might not be the best idea, even with a suppressor and "light" penetrating rounds. I would like to have more than the 5-8 rounds of a shotgun though, but with better terminal performance than just a .45 pistol or something similar.

Matthew Courtney
July 29, 2012, 08:27 PM
While angles of fire need to be though out with a .308, the same is true with any firearm, especially any long arm. The flip side of that is that a .308 turns cover into concealment ine many scenarios. There are trade offs with caliber and ammunition choices, and only you can weigh the options and balance those trade offs. I would look at TAP and Vor-tx.

dnilson
July 29, 2012, 08:58 PM
.45 ACP (what I use in my .45 cal. Glock) is a GREAT round for home defense!!! It makes GREAT BIG holes and is slow enough that it's less likely to blow through your neighbors bedroom! I prefer the 185 grain, but for some reason, the 230 grain is usually on sale, so that's what I use for practice. It's got a kick, but pushes backwards, so it's very manageable...so much so, that I can shoot pretty accurately one handed, with even the 230 grain.

Also, as someone else mentioned, a nice used shotgun can be had for only a couple hundred bucks. You can get a brand new Mossberg, for around $400-500. Plus you can get a couple of 25-50 round bandoleros and shotguns are easy to reload quickly!

Also, I'm curious...do you already have a .308 or are you just interested in getting one. If you're not dead set on a .308, a 556 with frangible ammo might be a good alternative.

skoro
July 29, 2012, 09:02 PM
Maybe if you need to defend your home against moose and bears... ;)

rcmodel
July 29, 2012, 09:08 PM
I would like to have more than the 5-8 rounds of a shotgun though,Either you are:
1. Expecting Attila the Hun and his hoards to invade your home?
Or
2. You are expecting to miss a lot?

The former is very unlikely.
And the latter can be fixed with a little shotgun practice & training.

Spray & pray will not win you any gunfights, so you need training & practice to prevail.
Then, 5-8 rounds in a shotgun will prevail, with ammo left over.

rc

BluedRevolver
July 29, 2012, 09:14 PM
Either you are:
1. Expecting Attila the Hun and his hoards to invade your home?
Or
2. You are expecting to miss a lot?

The former is very unlikely.
And the latter can be fixed with a little shotgun practice & training.

Spray & pray will not win you any gunfights, so you need training & practice to prevail.
Then, 5-8 rounds in a shotgun will prevail, with ammo left over.


I don't intend to miss, it's just that sometimes there's more than one or two attackers and only in a perfect world would I hit and stop both with two (or however many attackers there are) shots. I guess my line of thinking is "better have it and not need it than need it and not have it"

rcmodel
July 29, 2012, 09:18 PM
Buy an AR and a few 30-round mags then.

Too much ammo in or hung on a shotgun will just slow you down because of excess weight in all the wrong places.

The thing is, a pump or auto shotgun with a 5-round mag tube never runs out of ammo.
Because you can stuff more in the bottom during every lull in the action.

rc

TexasPatriot.308
July 29, 2012, 09:21 PM
no matter your arguement, the .308 is not what you need. you been reading too much or just hell bent on a .308. like I said before.....get real.

valnar
July 29, 2012, 09:30 PM
Let's not all jump to conclusions. He could be defending against bears in body armor.

Kachok
July 29, 2012, 09:32 PM
NO! Overpenatration is your enemy for home defense and 308s drive through bad guys quite easly, sheetrock and 2x4 studs too. Only way you could do something like that is to custom load some fragmenting varmint rounds or something to that effect. I have 125gr Ballistic Tips pushing 3200fps in my 308 for hunting the farm where overpenatration is a concern.

TexasPatriot.308
July 29, 2012, 10:22 PM
then there's always a grenade launcher thru the .308....kinda like the atomic hand grenade.....destroys everthing within a square mile, but you can only throw it about 10 feet.

Kachok
July 29, 2012, 10:28 PM
then there's always a grenade launcher thru the .308....kinda like the atomic hand grenade.....destroys everthing within a square mile, but you can only throw it about 10 feet.
That is the MAD (mutually assured destruction) of the home defense world :D

DeMilled
July 29, 2012, 10:51 PM
I would have no problem using my FN FAL (carbine length, not my Izzy HB) for home defense.

My house layout works for me and there are no kids bedrooms between my bedroom and the living room/kitchen/dining room/garage. I have no worries that I'm going to shoot through five interior walls and into a neighbors house.

I have it good like that and feel no need to down grade to a smaller rifle caliber.

Over penetration has been addressed by commercial ammo. manufacturers for some time now. 7.62 NATA/308 Win. is a perfectly viable option for home defense.


http://www.ssarmory.com/7.62x51_ammunition_150gr_barnes_rrlp_fb_frangible.aspx

Electronic ear muffs would be a good idea for hearing protection, but don't worry that you're going to light the walls on fire with the muzzle flash.

TexasPatriot.308
July 29, 2012, 11:22 PM
have you a good lawyer on speed dial.

DeMilled
July 29, 2012, 11:25 PM
Well, it's sounding like it might not be the best idea, even with a suppressor and "light" penetrating rounds. I would like to have more than the 5-8 rounds of a shotgun though, but with better terminal performance than just a .45 pistol or something similar.
Have you looked at the SAIGA 12?

I have a couple and my wife and I love them.

? rounds of #1 buck in a semi auto shot gun, that you reload as fast as you can change magazines, is a pretty nifty tool to have at your disposal.

You do need to restore them to original-ish specs before they really shine.

The balance, handiness and ease of swinging it about just plain work soo well that I have to rate it tops on my list of home defense guns to shop for.

10 round, 5 round, 12 round stick mags are available.
20 round and 12 round drums are also available.

12 round drums are on my to buy list as the perfect compact package O fire power.

Google SAIGA 12 and you'll see what I'm saying.


P.S. Don't forget that you can keep a magazine of slugs on hand and stretch the SAIGA-12's range to 100M, or turn cover into concealment. Versatility is a good thing.

P.P.S. You can put a bayonet on your semi-auto shot gun. Just saying...

DeMilled
July 29, 2012, 11:27 PM
have you a good lawyer on speed dial.

Very helpful to the discussion.

Pertinent, educated, applicable and totally above board.

rcmodel
July 29, 2012, 11:28 PM
There must be a VERY good reason every SWAT Entry team in the country carries .223 M4 carbines and 12ga shotguns.

If something else worked better & safer to stop a threat, that is what they all would carry.

But they don't.

rc

DeMilled
July 29, 2012, 11:41 PM
There must be a VERY good reason every SWAT Entry team in the country carries .223 M4 carbines and 12ga shotguns.

If something else worked better & safer to stop a threat, that is what they all would carry.

But they don't.

rc

Budget considerations?

SWAT gets a lot of military gear from the government for pennies on the dollar. M4s are cool, I carried one, and I wouldn't turn down a free one.

I know what 5.56 does to a human.

I know what 7.62 does to a human.

When I want to stop a threat I am not going to reach for the smallest caliber that can do that job.

I don't mind swatting flies with a sledge hammer.

People look just a nasty with cute little 5.56 holes in them as they do with bigger 7.62 holes in them.

People are stopped faster by the 7.62 and that's what I'm trying to do.
Stop the threat. That's all.

I agree that 12 gauge is a great home defense tool.
Pump 12 gauges work well and should not be discarded.

DeMilled
July 30, 2012, 12:02 AM
And the best reason to use 30 cal., it's what Clint would use...
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii134/desertford/get_fce9d8_832636.jpg

Guillermo
July 30, 2012, 01:42 AM
RC nailed it (again)

BTW
I have a handgun by my bedside for the "gee, what is that noise" that is probably nothing

a 870 w extended mag for "someone is in the house!!"

and a Rock River AR for when the car alarm goes off or some outside noise

PabloJ
July 30, 2012, 01:50 AM
I was looking at some low-penetrating .308 hollow point and ballistic tip loads from Hornady and Corbon.

In a handy rifle like a socom16 or something, would this be practical for self defense? You get many more rounds than a shotgun in a similar sized weapon with reasonable penetration. (Only obvious problem is noise and flash, which, if I can get the wife to agree, could be remedied with a short suppressor)
Great HD round if you reside in STONE-Walled villa.

JShirley
July 30, 2012, 02:07 AM
The people screaming about overpenetration while you're using a varmint round designed to fragment in just a couple of inches of tissue have no idea what they're talking about. Such a round would be less likely to overpenetrate a home invader than any other round capable of a decisive stop, and clearly, using varmint ammo against a bear would be idiotic.

The ones who mention blast, noise, and weight have valid points.

John

Warp
July 30, 2012, 02:16 AM
Blast, noise, weight, and cost of practice ammo.

I have an M1 and an AR. I just got both this year. They are my only semi auto magazine fed centerfire rifles. The .30-06 of the M1 can be considered ballistically identical to the .308 for this discussion, I think. I could have added the relevant accessories (red dot site mostly, but also a flashlight) to either, making it my go-to rifle and primary HD tool.

The AR is what now sits ready and waiting in the bedroom. It's lighter, recoils less, holds more rounds, is less expensive to practice with, and ought to stop an attacker/intruder very well. I'll save the big bore .30 stuff for outdoors where longer ranges and barriers are more likely. And where the blast/concussion has somewhere to escape to.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 30, 2012, 02:31 AM
Well, it's sounding like it might not be the best idea, even with a suppressor and "light" penetrating rounds. I would like to have more than the 5-8 rounds of a shotgun though, but with better terminal performance than just a .45 pistol or something similar.

5.56 is what you are looking for.

I know what 5.56 does to a human.

I know what 7.62 does to a human.

Please expand on what you know, I'm eager to hear. :)

mljdeckard
July 30, 2012, 02:39 AM
I don't believe in overpenetration. I believe in penetration, and you want all you can get.

There is no magical round that will effectively stop the bad guy and never go through him with enough energy to injure whatever is behind. Mag-safe, varmint grenades, whatever, you're not going to stand grandma behind the bad guy, shoot him, and say; "It's ok. The manufacturer said it wouldn't hurt her." And even if this magical round DID exist, you don't know that all of your shots are going to hit. You STILL have to plan on bad things happening behind the target. They don't negate Rule Number Four.

Plan the layout of your house, do the best you can to make your likely lanes of fire aren't where people are likely to be at the times you will be defending your house. Use overwhelming force, no reduced power anything. End the fight as quickly as possible, reduce the chances you will have to have a PROLONGED fight. THIS is the best way to reduce the chances of lead flying places you don't want it.

Warp
July 30, 2012, 02:43 AM
I don't believe in overpenetration. I believe in penetration, and you want all you can get.

There is no magical round that will effectively stop the bad guy and never go through him with enough energy to injure whatever is behind. Mag-safe, varmint grenades, whatever, you're not going to stand grandma behind the bad guy, shoot him, and say; "It's ok. The manufacturer said it wouldn't hurt her." And even if this magical round DID exist, you don't know that all of your shots are going to hit. You STILL have to plan on bad things happening behind the target. They don't negate Rule Number Four.

Plan the layout of your house, do the best you can to make your likely lanes of fire aren't where people are likely to be at the times you will be defending your house. Use overwhelming force, no reduced power anything. End the fight as quickly as possible, reduce the chances you will have to have a PROLONGED fight. THIS is the best way to reduce the chances of lead flying places you don't want it.

Penetration, both in tissue and through objects, is something that should be taken into consideration when making a platform/caliber/round decision, though. It would not be prudent or wise to use a .308 or .30-06 loaded with black tip AP ammunition living in a big city apartment. If, however, you were staying in a sweet cabin in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming, well, now things are quite a bit different.

The penetration of your chosen round through your residence's walls as well as whatever else is around you is something that you should consider when picking a weapon for home defense. Failing to do so is, IMO, negligent.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 30, 2012, 03:33 AM
There is no magical round that will effectively stop the bad guy and never go through him with enough energy to injure whatever is behind. Mag-safe, varmint grenades, whatever, you're not going to stand grandma behind the bad guy, shoot him, and say; "It's ok. The manufacturer said it wouldn't hurt her." And even if this magical round DID exist, you don't know that all of your shots are going to hit. You STILL have to plan on bad things happening behind the target. They don't negate Rule Number Four.

I understand what you are saying but there is a difference between thinking that the round won't over-penetrate and getting something that penetrates less to make things safer for the innocent neighbors.

mljdeckard
July 30, 2012, 03:39 AM
But even if you reduce the likelihood, you can never ELIMINATE it. You still have to make all of your plans assuming that it WILL. If I am assuming the risk, I want the benefit too.

However, I should probably make clear that I don't see myself using a .308 as a home defense weapon. I recommend trained persons use an AR with appropriate ammo (like Hornadt TAP), but really for effectiveness, not for reduced penetration. Right now my primary is a shotgun with #4 buck, my backup (and my wife's primary) is an M-1 carbine with 110 gr sp ammo.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 30, 2012, 03:43 AM
But even if you reduce the likelihood, you can never ELIMINATE it.

Wearing a seatbelt may not save your life in a head on collision but it's nice to wear it in the chance that it may save your life. :)

Plus with my AK, I wouldn't want to use anything other than Hornady V-Max or military surplus for defense and I will be getting back a very rusted gun from the Police if I used surplus.

I just prefer to plan for the worse considering I'm in a residential neighborhood.

-v-
July 30, 2012, 03:48 AM
Couple of points:

Penetration is Penetration: Anything that will punch into a assailant far enough to stop him, will punch through multiple sheets of drywall, studs, etc. We've yet to figure out how to escape from the laws of physics in regard to ballistics. Birdshot wont go through much drywall and interior structure, birdshot also wont go far enough into a BG to incapacitate him, and anything that will, will also go through most interior walls with ease

If thats all you have...: If all he has is a .308 and no spare assets to buy anything better, then its pointless to say "you need X, Y, or Z" - might as well just suggest he hire a few body guards to stand watch around the house all the time, for all its practical.

As for the original question: Well, any rifle round will do the job. The thin-skinned light .308 rounds (eg Hornady's 110gr TAP) would probably be the best bet for minimizing over-penetration. Generally, anything light and fast will be close to the results you are wanting.

JDMorris
July 30, 2012, 03:55 AM
In a realistic indoors home defense situation, practically I'd take my Glock 22 loaded with 15 rounds of 40 S&W, and if there is not a budged involved, give me an AR chambered in .300 BLK with subsonic rounds.. SBR upper too..

Art Eatman
July 30, 2012, 11:32 AM
Back in my jackrabbit hunting daze, I loaded 80-grain pistol bullets ahead of 55 grains of 3031 in my '06. Right at 4,000 ft/sec. That load regularly strewed rabbit pieces across the pasture.

Probably not a lot of excessive penetration--but what happens in a Bad Guy stays in a Bad Guy. I guess you could call it a Las Vegas load. A wee bit noisy indoors, though. :D:D:D

Patocazador
July 30, 2012, 11:50 AM
get a 20ga. shotgun.
And use # 6 shot. It will kill when used short range (inside a house) and not penetrate walls to hit something or someone else.

BP Hunter
July 30, 2012, 01:53 PM
OK, I guess I won't be needing extra mags for my newly purchased DSA STG58 FAL...:D

But seriously, if you can handle a SOCOM then you can handle a pump shotgun. If you can afford a SOCOM, then you can most definitely afford to buy a pump shotgun.

Warp
July 30, 2012, 02:33 PM
And use # 6 shot. It will kill when used short range (inside a house) and not penetrate walls to hit something or someone else.

1. It isn't about killing and killing is not the goal.
2. #6 shot does not penetrate far enough to reliably stop an attacker

Bartholomew Roberts
July 30, 2012, 02:50 PM
Look at the Hornady 110gr TAP loads in .308 - less penetration in ballistics gel than many pistol bullets.

Of course the flip side of that is you get a marginally bigger permanent cavity in ballistics gel (compared to say, .223 at the same distance) in return for losing onboard ammo, bigger rifle, recoil, flash and noise. You can mitigate the flash and noise with a suppressor (in return for significant additional length) but you'll still be stuck with the bigger rifle, recoil and lost onboard ammo.

mljdeckard
July 30, 2012, 03:56 PM
#4 is as light as I will go. Still devastating at close range, and it's what I keep on hand for coyotes anyway.

DeMilled
July 30, 2012, 04:15 PM
I don't find my FAL, with a 20" barrel too heavy to use inside my home, your mileage may vary. To keep that in perspective; I am 33, weigh in at 170lbs and work out a few times a month and in general live an active lifestyle.

The low round count is a non-issue since I have plenty of 30 round magazines.

The recoil is a non-issue for me, your mileage may vary.

Muzzle flash is not bad at all on my rifles. I have a Vortex Flash Hider and it works very well.

I think a lot of people would benefit from actually shooting a .30cal from the shoulder and do some training with it before talking themselves out of the caliber.

Here is a video put together by DSA where you can see guys shooting a shorty FAL, some of it full auto, and also shooting the M4 of some flavor. It is a nice visual comparison of just how much recoil you actually get out of a .30cal carbine versus 223. It's kind of cheesy since it's their promotional video.

http://youtu.be/CmJhFIPKmcc

DeMilled
July 30, 2012, 04:27 PM
5.56 is what you are looking for.


Please expand on what you know, I'm eager to hear. :)


Since I mentioned knowing what the two calibers do to people I guess I should say how I know that.


I joined the Army, decided that being a Cavalry Scout was the job for me, picked Ft. Stewart as duty station of choice, went to Iraq with 3/7 Cav. and saw plenty of dead folks. Some people had been shot with 5.56, some with 7.62 NATO.
The people shot with 7.62 had bigger holes in them and died faster. There were plenty of people who took a few 5.56 rounds and ran off to bleed out somewhere else.
No one, that I saw, took a few 7.62 rounds and ran off to bleed out.

Just my personal experience and that's what I based my decision to go with 7.62 NATO upon.

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 04:38 PM
.308 for Home defense?

Depends on your situation, and how big your bad guys are. I hear they get pretty big in Louisiana swamps, like the gators.

If there is any place in the US that in theory should be gun friendly to a home invasion defense , law wise, it's the French law based state of Louisiana. YMMV, depending upon your local DA.

Without more details, can't say if it's a good choice.

Since most of us never have to use our HD guns, I'd give 99% consideration to getting something you can use for other things, and something you would enjoy shooting, and can afford to shoot a lot.

I really don't get all the naysayers about battle proven rifle rounds for home defense. If you know where they are going, like into the wild, or into a berm
or levy, then go for it. Be prepared for blast a bit like a concussion grenade.
I think that makes a GREAT home defense weapon, and, combined with the muzzle flash and burn, a devastating defense weapon.

I would be concerned that the ammo you pick cycles your semi auto. That means testing and shooting with that ammo.

Before I forget, some of the full weight soft points in .308 are pretty devastating, and don't penetrate much. You might not need varmit rounds, depending on where you live, and where your shots go if you miss.

Also keep in mind that your expensive rifle may end up destroyed in a police evidence locker if your local DA thinks you committed murder instead of home defense. They can't exactly oil your gun after a shooting. Destroys evidence.

I've got a Mosin Nagant M44 ready to go. Short, handy, and 7.62 X 54R is pretty much .308, or .30-06, but cheap.

Since most criminals are under the influence of something or other, the extra power the proven rounds provide is certainly a valid concern.

The problem with shotguns is you need a place to practice with them, and for me, that is nowhere around here.

I've always wondered how many times home invasions are foiled by the presence of a rifle vs. a handgun. I know I would be the LAST person that would want someone shooting at me with a .308, and I would be running as fast as I could the other way if someone had one pointed at me.

The above observations in war are from .308 NON-EXPANDING AMMUNITION, or should be. Using expanding ammunition the .308 would be even more effective.

Patocazador
July 30, 2012, 06:48 PM
1. It isn't about killing and killing is not the goal.
2. #6 shot does not penetrate far enough to reliably stop an attacker
Tell that to people who shoot deer dead with a load of # 8's while bird hunting. I killed an 8 pt. with #7 1/2 shot while snipe hunting in a swamp. The wad will penetrate if they're close enough.

Warp
July 30, 2012, 07:45 PM
Tell that to people who shoot deer dead with a load of # 8's while bird hunting. I killed an 8 pt. with #7 1/2 shot while snipe hunting in a swamp. The wad will penetrate if they're close enough.

I will tell it to anybody, because it is true.

I will also tell anybody that .22lr is not a reliable stopper, even though people have been stopped/killed with a single round of it. (similar example)

wrs840
July 30, 2012, 07:57 PM
#4 is as light as I will go. Still devastating at close range, and it's what I keep on hand for coyotes anyway.

You shoot at coyotes with 12ga Hi-brass #4 bird? I'm not doubting or slagging, I've slayed many a rabid skunk with it, but at 40 feet or so.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 31, 2012, 01:09 AM
I joined the Army, decided that being a Cavalry Scout was the job for me, picked Ft. Stewart as duty station of choice, went to Iraq with 3/7 Cav. and saw plenty of dead folks. Some people had been shot with 5.56, some with 7.62 NATO.
The people shot with 7.62 had bigger holes in them and died faster. There were plenty of people who took a few 5.56 rounds and ran off to bleed out somewhere else.
No one, that I saw, took a few 7.62 rounds and ran off to bleed out.

Just my personal experience and that's what I based my decision to go with 7.62 NATO upon.

Thanks for your service and that is a valid observation. What ranges where those people mostly shot? Were some at close range indoors like HD?

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