What Self Defense Rifle?


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LouisianaGunner12
July 29, 2012, 10:35 PM
I know most say use a shotgun for home defense, but I don't care for them.

I want a rifle/carbine that I can use as my "go to" self defense rifle. It'll be for home defense and truck gun, may use it to take deer or such if the occasion calls for it. It should also be suitable for any catastrophes that some call "SHTF." But mainly it's a home defense, truck defense, hiking defense rifle. Preferably semi auto, though I'd consider lever action if it's plainly the best choice.

What would be something good for this? I want it to be in a caliber that's really known and proven to stop a determined aggressor who may be on some substance. (We have a lot of that here.)

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Natsmith77
July 29, 2012, 10:42 PM
Hard to beat a beater old SKS.

The round is abundant, cheap, and a proven man/animal killer.

Size wise it is small enough to maneuver with, but large enough to maintain a longer barrel for accuracy.

It is cheap enough to "abuse", as far as leaving it in a trunk, banging it around in the woods, or whatever. Yet rugged enough to stand up to abuse and keep running with very little maintenance.

No magazines to maintain/keep track of. If having a 30 round magazine is a requirement, they can be modified to accept them, but there are tactical and practical reasons that being able to slap rounds in the top using a stripper or not. It is also less to get snagged on or jacked up in the woods.

Not the most glamorous or "tacticool" choice...but for the cost/practical matter they are pretty hard to beat.

C-grunt
July 29, 2012, 10:43 PM
Im a huge fan of the AR15. Preferably one from the likes of Colt, LMT, Daniel Defense, BCM, KAC and Centurion.

Fred_G
July 29, 2012, 10:46 PM
AR in the 6.8SPC is a good rifle option. What part of Louisiana are you in? I am in the north.

LouisianaGunner12
July 29, 2012, 10:50 PM
AR in the 6.8SPC is a good rifle option. What part of Louisiana are you in? I am in the north.




I'm a few miles south of Alexandria

Fred_G
July 29, 2012, 10:53 PM
Well, that is a bit of a drive. Any reason you don't like the shotgun for HD?

briansmithwins
July 29, 2012, 10:53 PM
Either a AR or AK will work very well. Load with the JHP of your choice.

BSW

DeMilled
July 29, 2012, 10:55 PM
I'm an FAL fan but I think SKS would be a decent choice for someone on a budget.


What is your working budget, if you don't mind sharing?
It really can make a huge difference.

LeonCarr
July 29, 2012, 11:16 PM
Of the above mentioned, the SKS is a good one. Combat proven, will stop a dope fiend trying to kill you if necessary, cheap to purchase and cheap to shoot.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Fred_G
July 29, 2012, 11:20 PM
Well, maybe we can meet and do some shooting.

jpwilly
July 29, 2012, 11:58 PM
For me it's and AR-15 that works and has worked for the 8 years I've owned it (DPMS). If I was on a low budget I would consider the Hi-Point 45ACP Carbine too. But if you want a good all around rifle that is good for deer hunting maybe a 30-30 lever gun would be a good fit. No matter witch one you pick learn it and use it well.

crazy-mp
July 30, 2012, 12:07 AM
When I started reading this the first thing that came to my mind was a good old lever action 30-30, cheap(er) very reliable and good for 2 and 4 legged critters.

Then I continued reading and seen the semi-auto, what about a 300 Blackout? 220 grain .30 cal bullet moving around 1000-1050 fps or the hotter 125 gainers are proven deer killers as long as your not shooting at 500 yards. Like every gun and caliber there is going to be some trade off, caliber vs. capacity vs. weight vs. cost.

The SKS would be a great choice if your on a budget though, proven effective design

PabloJ
July 30, 2012, 12:08 AM
For all around use I would pick Beretta M59 'Tanker' chambered for 7,62x51 Nato cartridge.

TonyAngel
July 30, 2012, 12:16 AM
Have you considered a handgun? Rifles can fill the role, because something is usually better than nothing; but using a rifle in a home defense role can have its short comings.

gp911
July 30, 2012, 12:18 AM
On a budget a .30-30 lever, SKS, or .30-06 pump rifle (Remington 7600, etc) should drop an attacker if you do your job. for more money several calibers and rifles will do what you want, just pick your platform (AR, AK, etc).

briansmithwins
July 30, 2012, 12:22 AM
Have you considered a handgun? Rifles can fill the role, because something is usually better than nothing; but using a rifle in a home defense role can have its short comings.

Such as?

Ammo capacity? Nope, most modern auto-loaders have 20-30 round mags.
Power? Nope, pretty much any center fire rifle has 4-5X the foot pounds of energy as most handguns.
Ease of getting hits? Nope, rifles are much easier to get hits with.
Handiness? Maybe. Rifles are bulkier than handguns. OTOH, a decently durable rifle give you the option of striking with the muzzle or butt, if needed.

BSW

Roadking Rider
July 30, 2012, 12:39 AM
SKS,30/30,or Mini 14.

ScottieG59
July 30, 2012, 01:07 AM
I have not consider using a rifle for home defense in many years. If I were to choose a rifle for what it can do, I would choose the one I feel I know the best: something based on the M16, or, more currently, the M4. I hated the M16A1 when I first was issued one. Thirty+ years later, it have become very familiar.

If I decided against the AR15 variant, I would look at the Ruger Mini 14 or Mini 30. It is also a familiar design.

I am not sure what scenario would have me going for my rifle. The most likely thing would be if coyotes were getting too close to the kids and/or family pets. So far, the coyotes do not hang around long when I am around.

I also have an M1 Carbine, though along with many others, I do not see it as a rifle. With the right ammo, it can be very capable against most threats I would see.

If I could only choose one, right now, I am very tempted to go with the Ruger Mini 30. Being broke makes this exercise somewhat safe.

Rexster
July 30, 2012, 01:39 AM
I used to have several options in this category, from .223 AR15 to Marlin 1894 lever rifles in .357 Magnum and a Winchester 1894 Trapper in .30-30. I have narrowed it all down to a couple of Mini-14 Ranch Rifles.

coalman
July 30, 2012, 02:11 AM
Civilized = AR. Lighter, higher maintenance and better accuracy past 200m.
Uncivilized = AK. Heavier, lower maintenance and good accuracy under 200m.

IMO, a shotgun remains a better all-around choice. Slugs, 00 and buckshot (and all in between) offer lots of options.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 30, 2012, 02:16 AM
Here is my choice, an Interarms Tantal. AK74 based rifle firing 5.45x39. I use Hornady V-Max for my HD loading in a 20 round magazine.

Yes I know the optic isn't the best but it works.
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r617/FIVETWOSEVENTHR/IMG_0327.jpg?t=1342671115

Uncivilized = AK. Heavier, lower maintenance and good accuracy under 200m.

Uncivilized and accuracy under 200? :rolleyes:

47 based rifles are effective up to 400 yards and 74 based rifles are effective up to 600 yards.

IMO, a shotgun remains a better all-around choice. Slugs, 00 and buckshot (and all in between) offer lots of options.

Before my AK, my only long gun besides my bolt action was a shotgun. I sold it and got my AK. Wasn't happy with the limited range of the shotgun.

TonyAngel
July 30, 2012, 03:06 AM
Quote:
Have you considered a handgun? Rifles can fill the role, because something is usually better than nothing; but using a rifle in a home defense role can have its short comings.

Such as?

Ammo capacity? Nope, most modern auto-loaders have 20-30 round mags.
Power? Nope, pretty much any center fire rifle has 4-5X the foot pounds of energy as most handguns.
Ease of getting hits? Nope, rifles are much easier to get hits with.
Handiness? Maybe. Rifles are bulkier than handguns. OTOH, a decently durable rifle give you the option of striking with the muzzle or butt, if needed.

BSW

OK, are you talking about defending your home from invasion or fending off the zombie hords? Caliber or capacity has little to do with what you can effectively employ to defend your home should it become the target of those with ill intent.

A typical home is characterized by tight spaces and a lot of clutter in the form of hallways, doorways and furniture. There are loads of places to hide and obstacles that you have to contend with. Defending your home isn't going to be like shooting at the range or in the woods. And all of this is compounded by the fact that intruders rarely announce themselves and will likely be more alert than you are if this sort of thing happens.

Try doing a 180 in a hallway while holding a rifle at the ready, or sweeping a room and checking behind curtains or couches without leaving your back exposed to some other place where a bad guy can be hiding. You've gotta remember, you are likely to be doing this alone, without backup, so you have to do it in a manner that leaves you the least vulnerable.

The biggest problems with any sort of long gun is that they take two hands to handle and are largely dependent upon the position of your body when it comes to taking aim. There is also a greater probability that the invader will have the opportunity to get their hands on it and possibly take it away from you.

At least with a handgun, you will have one hand free to defend yourself against attacks and hopefully buy you some time to use your firearm. Handguns are also not as dependent upon body position and posture when employing them. There is also less of a likelihood that the bad guy would be able to get their hands on it.

Handguns also lend themselves to being hidden in key places around the home, rather than a rifle that is sitting in a closet someplace. Think about it, if you walk into a room holding a long gun and come across three guys, it is highly likely that you may get one or even two of them, but the odds of getting all three, without winding up in a hand to hand situation, are against you.

As far as firepower goes, I certainly wouldn't question the stopping power of a high capacity .40 or .357 Sig, nor even a good 8 round .45acp.

Of course, not everyone's situation is the same. I'm just pointing out that there are considerations other than caliber and capacity.

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 07:55 AM
Thanks for the responses everybody. It helps a lot.

Well, that is a bit of a drive. Any reason you don't like the shotgun for HD?


Yeah it is haha! To be honest, I don't know why I don't like the shotgun. It just doesn't "feel" right and I'm not very confident with it. I'd prefer a fast firing semi auto carbine.

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 08:10 AM
OK, are you talking about defending your home from invasion or fending off the zombie hords? Caliber or capacity has little to do with what you can effectively employ to defend your home should it become the target of those with ill intent.

A typical home is characterized by tight spaces and a lot of clutter in the form of hallways, doorways and furniture. There are loads of places to hide and obstacles that you have to contend with. Defending your home isn't going to be like shooting at the range or in the woods. And all of this is compounded by the fact that intruders rarely announce themselves and will likely be more alert than you are if this sort of thing happens.

Try doing a 180 in a hallway while holding a rifle at the ready, or sweeping a room and checking behind curtains or couches without leaving your back exposed to some other place where a bad guy can be hiding. You've gotta remember, you are likely to be doing this alone, without backup, so you have to do it in a manner that leaves you the least vulnerable.

The biggest problems with any sort of long gun is that they take two hands to handle and are largely dependent upon the position of your body when it comes to taking aim. There is also a greater probability that the invader will have the opportunity to get their hands on it and possibly take it away from you.

At least with a handgun, you will have one hand free to defend yourself against attacks and hopefully buy you some time to use your firearm. Handguns are also not as dependent upon body position and posture when employing them. There is also less of a likelihood that the bad guy would be able to get their hands on it.

Handguns also lend themselves to being hidden in key places around the home, rather than a rifle that is sitting in a closet someplace. Think about it, if you walk into a room holding a long gun and come across three guys, it is highly likely that you may get one or even two of them, but the odds of getting all three, without winding up in a hand to hand situation, are against you.

As far as firepower goes, I certainly wouldn't question the stopping power of a high capacity .40 or .357 Sig, nor even a good 8 round .45acp.

Of course, not everyone's situation is the same. I'm just pointing out that there are considerations other than caliber and capacity.

I mostly just want to defend against a home invasion. Your point about a long gun being too long in hallways and such is a concern of mine, that's why I kind of wanted a short, handy carbine, perhaps with a folding stock.

However, I don't want it to be in a caliber with any less power than a .45 ACP. (By the way, this is not my first gun, I own several revolvers, a couple of pistols, and a .308 bolt action.)

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 08:13 AM
To give you all my thoughts so far, my main considerations are an Arsenal SGL21 AK47 7.62x39 or a Russian SKS. I've saved up about two thousand dollars to spend and I'm willing to spend it all on a rifle, but that doesn't mean I have to, I could spend the rest on ammo if I went with an SKS or AK. I don't really care much for 5.56. My brother, when in Iraq, told me on several occasions about having to shoot insurgents four or five times before they'd finally drop, especially because they were sometimes extremely under the influence of opiates. I'm sure a good expanding 5.56 JHP would do much better, but overall I just don't want that caliber.

How does a good expanding 7.62x39mm HP compare with a good expanding .45 ACP JHP as far as terminal ballistics or "stopping power"?

If it's better, please present evidence or test results. If it's not, then 7.62x39 is off the list and I'll go back to the drawing board on a caliber to choose. It's very important to me to be able to stop the threat with as few rounds as possible; I may not have time to get off more than a shot or two if he's charging me or something.

gotigers
July 30, 2012, 08:26 AM
For an all around SHTF, survival, truck gun....it is hard to beat a good lever action. Fast shooting, lite to carry all day, always fires, good hunter, etc.

second would be an AR. I have 4 ARs in 5.56/223, but i am thinking hard about an AR in 300 blk, SBR'd and suppressed. Perfect HD.

6.8 spc/spc II and 300 blk are both great, but more expensive and will be hard to find if SHTF. So, home defense? yes. SHTF? No.

I to think a SKS would be good for this. If you have a line on ammo when SHTF. 7.62x39 is popular, but you just can't get it anywhere.

JShirley
July 30, 2012, 09:15 AM
You might try an AR in 7.62x39mm, for the best of both worlds: heavier bullets, ability to find cheap ammo, and great ergonomics. Hornady loads quality defensive ammo in this caliber.

I am quite confident in the 5.56x45mm's ability to rapidly stop a close threat, when loaded with good expanding ammo. Hell, I think 5.45x39mm is quite sufficient.

The experts I listen to all suggest a carbine for defense, if you have the choice. I agree. The only reasons to choose a shotgun would be (1) it's the only short-barreled longarm you have, or (2) you shoot shotguns so much that it's second nature.

John

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 09:20 AM
The AR is certainly a consideration, but I've heard the 7.62x39 conversions don't work very well.


But I'm still trying to find out if 7.62x39 is the caliber I want. I want the caliber I choose to have better terminal ballistics or "stopping power" than a quality expanding .45 ACP +P.

fanchisimo
July 30, 2012, 09:35 AM
Given your parameters, I would go with the SKS or AK option. Then put a folding stock on it to shorten it up to increase maneuverability in a house situation. Also take into consideration with a rifle is the penetration. If you're in a rural area then the chances of hitting someone on the other side of a wall is minimal but in an urban enviroment you might shoot a neighbor through the wall, and you become liable for that person.

cfullgraf
July 30, 2012, 09:57 AM
I feel that the 30 Carbine would be a dandy home defense weapon. Short, handy, easier to hit with at longer ranges, high capacity magazines, and plenty of oomph for home defense ranges.

Trouble is, I feel WWII veteran carbines should be kept for their historical value and post WWII commercial carbines can be hit or miss.

But, along comes the 300 AAC Blackout. Performance from a 16" barrel is a better than 30 Carbine, M4 style rifles are as handy as the 30 M1 Carbine, M4 style rifles can be easily outfitted with any of the available tacti-cool accessories on the market, as effective as 7.62x39, uses standard 5.56 NATO magazines, and ammunition is available commercially.

You could even get approval for a suppressor and/or a short barrel rifle (even handier in a house environment). Parts are available as opposed to getting custom stuff made.

This is the route I have taken for my farm, replacing my 223 Rem M4gery.

dnilson
July 30, 2012, 10:39 AM
I'm a little confused. You're asking for one weapon that will take care of a variety of situations. You really need the right weapon for the right job. Also, I've heard (but don't KNOW) that getting a permit for a short rifle isn't that easy. You have to have a good reason for needing one. Saying you want it for HD will probably not be sufficient.

For HD, EVERYONE I have ever spoken to, including several LEOs, have said shotgun...period! A 12 gauge has the stopping power you need, but without the over penetration you'd face with equally powerful rifles (going through your walls and into your neighbors house). I know you said you don't like them, but you never said why. Plus both the rifle and ammo are REALLY cheap. Based on your budget, you could easily get a nice 12 gauge with HD ammo AND whatever it is that you REALLY want. If there are intruders and they're smart, they'll take off. If they're NOT smart or are on drugs, they'll probably still take off, because EVERYONE knows what a 12 gauge can do!!! :eek: As for deer, you said you already have a bolt action, in .308. You also said you have handguns, but didn't mention the calibers. I have a couple of .45s, a .40 (both Glocks) and a small 9mm (S&W). I also have revolvers in .357 mag (Ruger) and a .45LC/.410 shells (The Judge). If you want to always be prepared, you should get your CC permit (unless you already have one) so you can carry at all times.

My SHTF guns will be my Daniel Defense in 556 and my Christensen Arms in .308 (currently being built). Plus my shotgun and handguns! I'll probably end up getting another shotgun as well as another 556 and .308 (from good manufacturers but not necessarily match grade like I have now). I wouldn't be so quick to write off a 556 just because someone you know had problems with them. I can assure you that if the S&IT really DOES hit the fan. You won't find many people on drugs, because they won't be available for very long...those who do have them will horde them or use them to barter. What ever you get, you need to get calibers that will be easy to find. I'm CONSTANTLY buying ammo (I am NOT a survivalist, I just see prices going up, so I buy whenever I can). In fact, I actually have an inventory (on my iPhone) and right now have 1000-2000 rounds for everything i have except my .308. You should see the look on peoples faces when I see something on sale and say "let me check my inventory first".:what:

Art Eatman
July 30, 2012, 10:40 AM
Stay with "light and handy". AR, Mini, SKS or AK, that sort of thing. A lever action in .357 would be quite adequate, as well. And, most any expanding bullet; no need to over-think about that. They'll all work.

The main thing is familiarity and skill with whatever choice is made.

Roadking Rider
July 30, 2012, 10:54 AM
For inside the house it the Mossberg shotgun. For outside the house where I might have to reach out and touch someone or something it would be the Mini14,SKS or 30/30. For mushy headed zombies it would be the 10/22. I'm not wasting good ammo on a zombie. :D

dnilson
July 30, 2012, 11:10 AM
I'm curious, because you've mentioned it at least a couple of times...why are you so opposed to a .45 cal. I've been told by several people far more knowledgeable than I that my .45 ACP Glock is the BEST caliber and gun for CC and second best for HD (the 12 gauge being first). The .45 makes BIG holes, but is slow enough that it won't go through your walls and into your neighbors house. You seem like a really smart guy, so why the aversion to a .45 cal? :confused:

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 11:19 AM
I'm curious, because you've mentioned it at least a couple of times...why do you feel that you need something with better terminal ballistics than .45 cal. I've been told by several people far more knowledgeable than I that my .45 ACP Glock is the BEST caliber and gun for CC and second best for HD (the 12 gauge being first). The .45 makes BIG holes, but is slow enough that it won't go through your walls and into your neighbors house. You seem like a really smart guy, so why the aversion to a .45 cal?



no no no, I love the .45 ACP! It's my main pistol caliber. I have some semi auto pistols in it and revolvers in it, it's my handgun cartridge of choice. But for a carbine, I'd like something as or more powerful. It's just sort of my "rule of thumb" standard. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I keep my S&W m25 .45 ACP by my bed at night, but I'd like a long arm too.

BearGriz
July 30, 2012, 11:29 AM
I like pistol-caliber carbines. I have a CX4 Storm, and it is pretty fun! It takes the same magazines as my Beretta 92.

Many others like the Kel Tec Sub-2000. Depending on the model, it can share mags with Glock, S&W, Berretta, or Sig handguns. It also folds for compact storage.

These carbines are easy to handle (they are much shorter than rifle-caliber carbines), they are very easy to control, and they are fun to shoot as well. Plus you have one "load out" (same magazines for pistol and rifle). Something to look at.

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 11:47 AM
I like pistol-caliber carbines. I have a CX4 Storm, and it is pretty fun! It takes the same magazines as my Beretta 92.

Many others like the Kel Tec Sub-2000. Depending on the model, it can share mags with Glock, S&W, Berretta, or Sig handguns. It also folds for compact storage.

These carbines are easy to handle (they are much shorter than rifle-caliber carbines), they are very easy to control, and they are fun to shoot as well. Plus you have one "load out" (same magazines for pistol and rifle). Something to look at.


That's certainly something to consider. If I were to go with the pistol cal carbine route, I'd probably just buy an AR and buy a .45 upper or something for it. But I really want something in an intermediate rifle caliber.

Does a good JHP 7.62x39 have as much stopping power as a good JHP .45 ACP?

charlie fox
July 30, 2012, 11:50 AM
Not a sexy as a semi-auto, but I would second a 30-30 carbine for a number of reasons - easy to find, ammo is easy to find and fairly inexpensive, it has been taking medium to medium-large game for a century (it should handle any two legged predator with equal efficiency), and lastly it doesn't scream "EVIL BLACK RIFLE". This may or not be a concern, but I like to practice the "Gray Man" philosophy. That said, I do own an AR because of my familiarity and comfort with the platform, but it wouldn't be my first choice if I had to grab one rifle. YMMV.

JShirley
July 30, 2012, 12:35 PM
It is really tiresome to continually hear the same misinformation, when the truth can be found with just a few minutes' worth of research or (gasp!) actually taking a day to go test it yourself.

High-speed, lightly constructed bullets penetrate less in structure than heavier, slower ones. This means that a lightweight .223 HP or ballistic tip will tend to have less, LESS, LESS penetration in building materials than a .45 ACP, while having significantly more destructive power (there's really no such thing as "stopping power" with a shoulder-fired conventional firearm). This well-known tendency is one of the main reasons most SWAT teams have abandoned the pistol-caliber submachine guns in favor of the carbine. Further, a high-speed (rifle), lightly constructed bullet will also penetrate considerably less in both tissue and building materials than 00 buck.

I have heard some of the absolute stupidest advice ever- such as dragging a deceased home invader back into your home- from LEO, so saying LEO has said something doesn't automatically mean anything positive.

It is incredibly thoughtless to imagine there is a single "best" caliber and platform for concealed carry, given the variables of varying body size, hand size, carry style, proficiency, grip strength, etc. The "big" holes of the .45 ACP are pathetic compared to the damage any expanding rifle round produces.

So, in summation, every time someone who hasn't the faintest clue screams "think of the neighbors!" when the use of a good carbine and rapidly expanding bullets is contemplated, reply, I am.

John

Ramone
July 30, 2012, 01:02 PM
While I have a selection of rifles and pistols that would give me an ideal choice for a wide variety of situations, for Home Defense, my go to is a 9mm carbine, loaded with subsonic ammo.

I suspect that home defense, more often than not, might involve low light and enclosed spaces, and having fired an M60 in a stair well in the early '80s left me with a strong impression of the value of low retort and muzzle flash in such a situation (took a week till my ears stopped ringing, and I couldn't see any thing but purple spots for about 1/2 hour).

While it *is* easier to go around a corner or through a door with a pistol, 'snap shooting' from a carbine will always be more accurate, even from the hip (especially with a light laser attached).

A few minutes wrestling with a friend with a short bit of broomstick will prove that it is easier to retain, AND control the muzzle of something that you are holding with two hands than a pistol.

Opening doors and the like is also not restricted as a pistol caliber Carbine can be handled one handed when such situations arise, while still allowing better muzzle awareness.

When I was young, it was explained to me the the M1 Carbine was invented so shavetail lieutenants would be less likely to shoot themselves in the foot, or one of their troops. This makes some sense to me, so a small carbine would be the first thing I'd want to hand off to someone less experienced so they could back me up as I switched to a pistol or rifle.

9mm ammo is the next cheapest thing to .22LR, and commonly available, which means more practice with less fuss.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-enYU3v9G9A0/T86VHXEneaI/AAAAAAAAH64/lLWwBX3JmRs/s800/sSUB2K_002.jpg

JShirley
July 30, 2012, 01:08 PM
Well, you could do worse, but I'd like to see any data showing that 9mm subsonic load won't have extremely deep penetration in both tissue and building materials.

J

The_Armed_Therapist
July 30, 2012, 01:27 PM
The semi-autos that I can think of have very penetrating rounds, which scares me away for "Home Defense." But...

I think the M1 Carbine would be a good choice for home defense and truck defense. It wouldn't be ideal for hunting, but you could make it work

Outside of the M1, I'd go lever action. A .44 lever action, loaded with .44 mag in the woods, and loaded with .44 special at home/in the truck would be a great choice!

Quoheleth
July 30, 2012, 01:46 PM
Well, I've been looking for what's best for me for a while.

Tried a Yugo SKS, but it's over 7lbs (wood stock) and almost as bulky as my Garand. Decided to sell it - got out of it what I had in it.

I've got shotguns and those will fit the bill, but I want a rifle, too.

I'm thinking lever action, but in either .45 Colt or .357 Mag. Here's why:

First, they're lever actions and not "black." Pull out a lever action, and you're a good guy - the Lone Ranger, the Rifleman, a simple man ready to defend his ranch. Pull out a AR or AK - especially now after the Colorado shooting - and you get the stink eye from the uneducated masses.

Second, I have handguns in both calibers. If I have to hit the road, or stuff my pockets with ammo, I have the same ammo for both guns.

Third, looking at the ballistics of a .357 out of a 20" rifle barrel, you're knocking on the low end of .30-30 territory. Even cowboy .38 Special loads get bumped up near +P levels! I haven't researched .45 Colt ballistics out of a rifle barrel, yet, but even it it isn't jazzed up much, it's still a 255 grain slug at/near 1000fps.

With the right bullets, these rifles are great from paper-punching to plinking; from small game to medium size game or home defense.

I know they have limitations: lower magazine capacity, slower for a full reload, slower to run than a semi-auto, no rail for optics, etc. But for me, my family, and my plan, it fits the bill.

Q

kcshooter
July 30, 2012, 01:54 PM
A 12 gauge has the stopping power you need, but without the over penetration you'd face with equally powerful rifles (going through your walls and into your neighbors house). 12ga with defensive ammo will penetrate far more than .223 caliber AR-15.



If you don't like the AR or AK platforms, which would best serve your needs based on the OP, an M1 carbine, SKS, or even lever action rifle would fit your needs nicely, as others have stated.

Plus, I agree these 3 look much less scary to a hoplophobe than the terrifying blackness of the AR-15 or AK patterns.

I also think the M1 carbine makes a perfect HD gun, but whatever you choose, it's all about your skill with your chosen rifle.

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 02:56 PM
Based on the posts here helping me, here is what I've come up with as my main choices (in no particular order):

AK47 7.62x39
SKS 7.62x39
AR15 5.56 with a .45 ACP upper
Lever Gun in 30-30, .357, or .44 (I know it's not semi auto like I said I wanted, but I do see advantages to it.)



My main concern: I'd go with the SKS or AK in a heartbeat if I knew what kind of stopping power the 7.62x39 JHP has compared to .45 ACP or 30-30. (I've heard that 7.62x39 is slightly less powerful than 30-30?)

The_Armed_Therapist
July 30, 2012, 03:06 PM
I'd go with the SKS or AK in a heartbeat if I knew what kind of stopping power the 7.62x39 JHP has compared to .45 ACP or 30-30.

The .45acp is about 1,000ft/s and about 500ft-lbs.
The .30-30 is about 2,250ft/s and about 1,850ft-lbs.
The 7.62x39 is about 2,400ft/s and about 1,650ft-lbs.

All-in-all, I'd call the .30-30 and the 7.62x39mm about even. The major difference besides platform (semi-auto vs. lever action) is that the 7.62x39 has a little more range. This is fairly irrelevant to your needs, though. But there's no reason to think the 7.62x39 isn't as good as the .30-30 in stopping power. In fact, your only issue should be whether or not the .30-30 and the 7.62 are too over-penetrating. The .45acp isn't nearly as likely to do that and less likely to lose energy into your neighbors. If you want .45-type abilities in a HD/SD rifle, then go with the .44mag/.44special.

mljdeckard
July 30, 2012, 03:08 PM
The reason I don't keep my M-1 carbine in the truck is that it's a family heirloom. I keep my Tapcoed SKS in the truck, I wouldn't feel nearly as bad if something happened to it.

Reloadron
July 30, 2012, 03:13 PM
Lever Gun in 30-30, .357, or .44 (I know it's not semi auto like I said I wanted, but I do see advantages to it.)

If you want an overall good rifle that is semi-automatic in a nice magnum handgun caliber you may want to consider walking a few gun shows or looking used. Between about 1961 and 1974 Ruger marketed a real slick little semi-auto carbine style rifle in .44 Magnum. The Ruger Model 44. I owned a few and regret selling them, if I see another it is on my short list. :)

Read about it here. (http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/ig/Ruger-44-Carbine-Instructions/Ruger-Carbines-1.htm)

Something to consider if you don't mind looking.

Ron

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 03:15 PM
The .45acp is about 1,000ft/s and about 500ft-lbs.
The .30-30 is about 2,250ft/s and about 1,850ft-lbs.
The 7.62x39 is about 2,400ft/s and about 1,650ft-lbs.

All-in-all, I'd call the .30-30 and the 7.62x39mm about even. The major difference besides platform (semi-auto vs. lever action) is that the 7.62x39 has a little more range. This is fairly irrelevant to your needs, though. But there's no reason to think the 7.62x39 isn't as good as the .30-30 in stopping power. In fact, your only issue should be whether or not the .30-30 and the 7.62 are too over-penetrating. The .45acp isn't nearly as likely to do that and less likely to lose energy into your neighbors. If you want .45-type abilities in a HD/SD rifle, then go with the .44mag/.44special.

Only reason I'd think the .45 ACP may have some stopping power advantage is because it's a much larger diameter, heavier bullet, although it's moving very slow compared to 7.62x39 or 30-30

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 03:19 PM
Just to add to it:

Mosin Nagant M44. Short barreled, handy.
7.62 X 54 R= a cheap version of 30-06. Plenty of soft points I would NOT want to get hit with, and steel jacketed for those armour piercing days. Plus, it has a bayonet for close quarters combat.

If you have to use it, you won't mind the fact that the police destroyed your 100-200 dollar rifle by letting it rust while it's being held in an evidence locker.

Use the money you save to practice working the bolt, and point shooting.

There is no more battle proven rifle then the Mosin Nagant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_BM59



If you want a powerful, expensive, semi-auto for close range the Garand BM 59 in 30-06 is an awesome choice.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_BM59

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/05/08/the-t26-tanker-m1-garand/

mac66
July 30, 2012, 03:25 PM
From my experience as a rifle instructor you would want something that is ergonomic and easy to handle under stress. Small motor skills deteriorate under stress so you want something that is easy to manipulate and whose controls are easy to find and use.

The Ar15 is very ergonomic and the controls (safety/mag release) are easy to use except for the charging handle. It is light weight and easy to load and reload under pressure. The mags slide right in. The mag release and safety are in a good location.

The AK is less ergonomic. The safety lever while large and easy to manipulate is in a bad location. The "rock the mag" in loading and reloading is difficult under stress unless you practice a lot. It is the number one operator error that I see on the line.

The Mini 14/30 is a pretty good rifle but it too has the "rock the mag" loading feature. Otherwise the controls are good. The mag load and reload is a weakness IMO.

M1 Carbine, good controls, easy to load and reload, the mags slide right in without having to be rocked into place. Depending whether you have the push button safety or flip lever safety depends on how effective you might be. Overall it is very ergonomic/user friendly.

The SKS is a pretty good choice though it is heavy and somewhat cumbersome in a house. Controls are fairly ergonomic. Loading the mag with stripper clips or by hand takes some skill and is much more difficult under stress.

Personally I would pick the AR15 as the easiest rifle to use. On the other hand, shooting rifle inside is not fun so I don't see any advantage of a rifle over a pistol inside a house.

mdauben
July 30, 2012, 03:30 PM
I agree with many of the previous posters, I think an AR, AK or a lever action would all be good choices. I notice that for the lever action ther .30-30 was recommended, but you could also consider one in .357mag, .44mag or even .45LC pistol calibers, too. ALl three should be excellent performers in a carbine lenght barrel with modern JHPs.

Pistol caliber semiauto carbines look good on paper, but I've heard a lot of worrying things about their reliability. If you can find a reliable one, that's another option.

If you have to use it, you won't mind the fact that the police destroyed your 100-200 dollar rifle by letting it rust while it's being held in an evidence locker.
Its your decision. Personally, I'd be more concerned with having the best and most appropriate gun in my hands when there is trouble than worrying about some hypotetical damage after the fact. If you ever have to shoot someone, believe me you will have more important things to worry about. I'd rather kiss a $600-800 gun good bye, knowing it saved my life or the life of a family member, that risk fumbling with a cheap bolt action in a life-or-death SD situation. YMMV.

rolandedwinjohnson
July 30, 2012, 03:31 PM
My home defense rifle is my Brothers SKS. I'm holding on to it for his girls (he died a few years ago) as soon as one of them asks she gets the SKS. In the mean time It's a memory I can hang on to.

Now, the self defense rifle could double as a deer / general purpose rifle; but, I have a Marlin 336 in 30 30 to fill that role. Similarly, I have a bolt action 22Mag that would also serve as a light utility rifle. It would serve as a varmint / small game gun

JShirley
July 30, 2012, 03:39 PM
The 7.62x39mm, with quality bullets, is considerably more effective than .45 ACP, and less likely to dramatically overpenetrate building materials, as well. But the .223 with quality ammunition is also considerably more effective than a .45 ACP, even from a carbine barrel.

The .30-30 is a little more powerful than a 7.62x39mm, as typically loaded, BUT unless you load your own ammunition, you will not be able to get low-penetration rounds as you can with the x39mm. IOW, all commonly available .30-30 rounds will tend to overpenetrate, even if you correctly hit your attacker.

The 7.62x54mm is not a serious home defense round. The similar-power-level .308, on the other hand, is because of the availability of quality platforms and low-penetration ammo. The BM 59 is a battle rifle that weighs over 9.5 lbs. A Moisin-Nagant rifle would be a worst choice for home defense, but other than that, you'd be hard pressed to find one.

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 04:01 PM
Another choice for me is any version of the Mac 10. 32 rounds of .45 ACP ball ammo. Light, fairly accurate at close range. Full auto may also be an option.
Don't know your situation. Thompson's aren't bad either, but a bit heavy.

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 04:20 PM
The 7.62x39mm, with quality bullets, is considerably more effective than .45 ACP


Can you show me any information on this?

DeMilled
July 30, 2012, 04:26 PM
With two grand to spend I think you should see if you can find someone in your area who will let you shoot their FAL and see how it tickles your fancy. Reach out online and talk to the FAL folks in your neck of the woods, there are plenty of them in LA.

You should be able to find one in whatever flavor you like (they come in many) and still have enough left in the budget to get into reloading 308.
Mil. Surp. 7.62 is not as inexpensive as it used to be but it's still out there.

I got into reloading so I can shoot more and also to work up hunting loads.
I like the 165grain Sierra Game Kings, very accurate and very effective at dropping medium sized game it it's tracks.

I really get a lot of bang for my buck with the rifle. I can hunt with them, defend my castle with them, tear up cars and block walls for recreational shooting and they are very reliable.

They are also addictive and you may find that you end up buying more than just one. It's also pretty easy to build your own and that's when you know you're in trouble :neener: I've built five soo far and actually have plans for two more. You've been warned...

Oh, and you can also get side tracked into what sort of scope you want to put on there. Almost forgot about that.

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 04:35 PM
Same argument can be made for the M1A. Fantastic rifles as well.

http://www.impactguns.com/springfield-m1a-socom-16-aa9626-706397852665.aspx

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 04:45 PM
With two grand to spend I think you should see if you can find someone in your area who will let you shoot their FAL and see how it tickles your fancy. Reach out online and talk to the FAL folks in your neck of the woods, there are plenty of them in LA.

You should be able to find one in whatever flavor you like (they come in many) and still have enough left in the budget to get into reloading 308.
Mil. Surp. 7.62 is not as inexpensive as it used to be but it's still out there.

I got into reloading so I can shoot more and also to work up hunting loads.
I like the 165grain Sierra Game Kings, very accurate and very effective at dropping medium sized game it it's tracks.

I really get a lot of bang for my buck with the rifle. I can hunt with them, defend my castle with them, tear up cars and block walls for recreational shooting and they are very reliable.

They are also addictive and you may find that you end up buying more than just one. It's also pretty easy to build your own and that's when you know you're in trouble I've built five soo far and actually have plans for two more. You've been warned...

Oh, and you can also get side tracked into what sort of scope you want to put on there. Almost forgot about that.



Would .308 be a viable home defense option? It's not too... excessive?

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 04:59 PM
Another thread here on that very topic. Look for it.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=670258

.308 can be loaded with light bullets, though I'm not sure why you would want to.

Again: depends on what you hit if you miss.

Dr.Rob
July 30, 2012, 05:22 PM
A few years ago I would have picked a shotgun over a carbine every time.

Fact is I'm shooting my AR a lot more than my shotgun these days and my confidence and competence is better with a carbine at present.

You can get a good AR for less than $800.

Dr_2_B
July 30, 2012, 05:51 PM
Quote:
The 7.62x39mm, with quality bullets, is considerably more effective than .45 ACP

Can you show me any information on this?

Louisianna, I've read this entire post and someone finally got around to answering one of the questions you'd been asking from the start. There is plenty of information on the net that backs up his assertion. Some of it is listed above... the significantly greater energy transfer represents the answer to your question. You may have a hard time finding a comparison between the 7.62X39 and .45 because many people see it as axiomatic.

Now anecdotal experience. I shoot an empty large peanut can with a 45 and it bounces around a bit. I have shot a can with an AK and several times watched the offending can fly 30+feet into the air. And I'm not exagerating, it may have been closer to 40 ft. And this has happened many times. There's no question that an AK has considerably more destructive capacity than a 45.

And as for the .308, it could be loaded light enough to decrease the likelihood of super-penetration. But as someone before me asked, why would you want to?

Fiv3r
July 30, 2012, 05:58 PM
The 7.62x54mm is not a serious home defense round. The similar-power-level .308, on the other hand, is because of the availability of quality platforms and low-penetration ammo. The BM 59 is a battle rifle that weighs over 9.5 lbs. A Moisin-Nagant rifle would be a worst choice for home defense, but other than that, you'd be hard pressed to find one.

I dunno, John. What if the home invader is riding on horse back down your hall? Wouldn't it be prudent to have a 9lb piece of wood with a 14" spike?:neener:

I really enjoy my 91/30, but yeah it's a fun gun and not a serious home defense rifle.

If you would have asked me a couple of years ago I would have never thought I would have picked the AR-15. I always thought of myself as more of a lever or AK guy. However, once I got my Stag 2L...oh my. Happiness is a paper target full of .223 caliber holes right where I willed them.

Would I go on a moose hunt with it? No. Could I take a deer with it in a pinch, probably. Do I think I could defend my home and life with it? No doubt about it. I keep 5 magazines loaded. If I need more than that, then I would already be dead.

That said, I'm a shotgun guy. A pump 12 is my weapon of choice. OP isn't a huge issue as I would be firing away from the living quarters in my house and if it DID happen to make it through the kitchen and into my neighbors home, the floor plans are mirrored meaning that it would have to travel all the way through her garage and kitchen before it even got to the first bedroom.

DefiantDad
July 30, 2012, 06:07 PM
Can you show me any information on this?
This might be interesting reading for you and help you with your rifle choice (e.g., I noticed you had a list with an AR chambered with 45ACP upper; which does not make sense to me as the whole point about the AR is using the widely available and powerful .223/5.56):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=662941

".45 ACP versus .223; 10 feet away"

DefiantDad
July 30, 2012, 06:11 PM
Would .308 be a viable home defense option? It's not too... excessive?
I have been going through much of the same decision process you are going through (still not completed my journey, since I am still in the market for a .308).

So, for home defense, I will go with my AR15 chambered in .223/5.56. Purely as a backup, I will use one of my handguns (now 9mm, later I will get a .45ACP, probably Glock 36).

If I expect the bad guy(s) to come in with body armor (or need to shoot them or their truck far away), I will bring out the semi-auto .308 (I am still finalizing which .308).

(In the particular situation, if I am worried about over penetration, I might just go with lighter weight .223 HPBT, instead of the .308.)

Notice that I have not even listed a shotgun yet. That will be last on my list. It is not necessarily a hard and fast rule that the shotgun is the perfect home defense weapon, so you are not alone in that.

wrs840
July 30, 2012, 06:17 PM
I own and like ARs (kinda expensive), AKs (no real complaints), SKS-D/Ms (fun but kinda heavy, and nowhere near as cheap as they used to be)...

That said, for a light, dependable, utility/truck/tractor-cab/home quick-grab rifle, I've gravitated to Marlin 336s and Mini-14s for some reason.

oldpapps
July 30, 2012, 07:14 PM
" LouisianaGunner12
What Self Defense Rifle?
I know most say use a shotgun for home defense, but I don't care for them.

I want a rifle/carbine that I can use as my "go to" self defense rifle. It'll be for home defense and truck gun, may use it to take deer or such if the occasion calls for it. It should also be suitable for any catastrophes that some call "SHTF." But mainly it's a home defense, truck defense, hiking defense rifle. Preferably semi auto, though I'd consider lever action if it's plainly the best choice.

What would be something good for this? I want it to be in a caliber that's really known and proven to stop a determined aggressor who may be on some substance. (We have a lot of that here.)"

I will go with you not living in a boxed together apartment or up close housing development and that a rifle is appropriate.

Shot guns and pistols are not a discussion option and greater energies than the .45ACP is desired. We can work with these parameters.

I saw the SKS and civilian version of the AK listed. Where I have a personal problem with them, they could meet your needs.

I would opt for an AR with two uppers. One being your fall back for SHTF in .223/5.56. And the second being in .300 BlackOut for your normal daily business needs. Both with 16 inch barrels and hard sights. Add whatever optics you like later.

The .223/5.56 loading would serve you well. I think the .300 BlackOut could/would serve a little better. Its only draw back being the availability of loaded ammunition. In a SHTF occurrence, the second upper would come into play. For day to day needs, MidwayUSA currently lists some 17 different loadings running from just under $11 a box of 20 up.
Hopefully you are a re-loader and your needs become what and when you want to load. Only a matter of cutting down and forming .223/5.56 brass.

I feel that muzzle blast is a plus when deterring a home invasion. Just like the sound of racking a pump shotgun. I also detest the idea of having to jump through paper hoops and paying fees to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights. So 'suppressors' and 'SBR' are not in the running for me, you may well desire to go that route.

I don't want to get into any arguments about energies or the like. Think of it like this: the .300 BlackOut is near the same as the 30-30 only in an autoloader that takes 30 round mags. Uses all the same everything as the normal/little .223/5.56 (weapon wise less the barrel).

This is not to say the a lever action in 30-30 could not do as well, but you are the one that stated you preferred a semi auto.

You will have to check your local gun emporium to determine what ammunitions are common in your area, if this is a concern.

CountGlockulla
July 30, 2012, 07:18 PM
AR15 or AK47

/endthread.exe

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 08:47 PM
Louisianna, I've read this entire post and someone finally got around to answering one of the questions you'd been asking from the start. There is plenty of information on the net that backs up his assertion. Some of it is listed above... the significantly greater energy transfer represents the answer to your question. You may have a hard time finding a comparison between the 7.62X39 and .45 because many people see it as axiomatic.

Now anecdotal experience. I shoot an empty large peanut can with a 45 and it bounces around a bit. I have shot a can with an AK and several times watched the offending can fly 30+feet into the air. And I'm not exagerating, it may have been closer to 40 ft. And this has happened many times. There's no question that an AK has considerably more destructive capacity than a 45.

And as for the .308, it could be loaded light enough to decrease the likelihood of super-penetration. But as someone before me asked, why would you want to?


Thank you, that's a good answer.

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 08:58 PM
Statistically, at least in my part of Louisiana, home invasions are frequently by criminals on meth, crack, heroin or pcp. These drugs can arguably increase the amount of damage someone can take from a gunshot. I know an old man who lives in a bad neighborhood, his home was invaded, and his assailant was rather large and very intoxicated on PCP. It took five shots of .38 Special to bring him down, and the old man had to go to the hospital for deep cuts.

I want to avoid such a fate. Although I don't live in an especially bad neighborhood, in the event that a large man on PCP breaks into my house and charges me, I really want him to go down with the first shot. Of course, I'll keep shooting until I'm sure he's down, but for my safety I want a reasonable rifle/carbine cartridge that will take him down as fast as possible. I understand that 12 gauge shines in this, but I really would like a carbine of some sort.

DeMilled
July 30, 2012, 09:04 PM
Ya know, if you do go with an FAL carbine you'll also have a great hog rifle too.

Just saying...

DefiantDad
July 30, 2012, 09:08 PM
Statistically, at least in my part of Louisiana, home invasions are frequently by criminals on meth, crack, heroin or pcp. These drugs can arguably increase the amount of damage someone can take from a gunshot. I know an old man who lives in a bad neighborhood, his home was invaded, and his assailant was rather large and very intoxicated on PCP. It took five shots of .38 Special to bring him down, and the old man had to go to the hospital for deep cuts.

I want to avoid such a fate. Although I don't live in an especially bad neighborhood, in the event that a large man on PCP breaks into my house and charges me, I really want him to go down with the first shot. Of course, I'll keep shooting until I'm sure he's down, but for my safety I want a reasonable rifle/carbine cartridge that will take him down as fast as possible. I understand that 12 gauge shines in this, but I really would like a carbine of some sort.
If THAT is your scenario, and I were in your shoes, and I recall you have .45 handguns, I would get a carbine chambered in .45 ACP using exactly the same magazines as your handgun, and use the hottest largest load possible in .45 ACP with the carbine, with red dot sights. Or get a handgun/carbine combo that uses interchangeable magazines if your existing handgun magazines don't match with any carbine.

jdub3
July 30, 2012, 09:10 PM
Mini-14 or Mini-30. Or an AR or AK.

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 09:13 PM
If THAT is your scenario, and I were in your shoes, and I recall you have .45 handguns, I would get a carbine chambered in .45 ACP using exactly the same magazines as your handgun, and use the hottest largest load possible in .45 ACP with the carbine, with red dot sights. Or get a handgun/carbine combo that uses interchangeable magazines if your existing handgun magazines don't match with any carbine.



So you don't think 7.62x39 is a good manstopper?

DefiantDad
July 30, 2012, 09:18 PM
It is simply based on your need to shoot an unvested criminal, and reduction of confusion in a state of emergency (one caliber, both guns, one magazine).

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 09:48 PM
Mini 30? That sounds like a great gun. Fun to shoot, accurate,
light, and not absurdly expensive. You may have sold me.

I just looked at the ft-lbs of energy for the 7.62 x 39.

I have three pistol rounds that with proper loads exceed the 1600 ft-lb range, the last nearly doubles the 7.62.
They are:
.475 Linebaugh.
420 grains at 1350 fps
.500JRH: .440 grains at 1350 fps
.500 Maximum: 525 grains at 1550 fps.

Used in a carbine, these might give you a lot more velocity, and hit very hard due to their diameter. I imagine with a slightly lighter bullet, say 300-350 grains you could limit penetration a bit, and get near 2000 fps.
Put that in a lever action rifle...

The .458 Socom does pretty much the same, but you can't shoot it in a revolver.

Also you have about a 70% chance you will have 2-3 attackers, and, if you are like most, about a 30-50% hit rate. Dim light for sure.

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 10:15 PM
Also you have about a 70% chance you will have 2-3 attackers, and, if you are like most, about a 30-50% hit rate. Dim light for sure.



Exactly. So I think ten rounds would be the absolute minimum, and more would be preferred. That's another reason why I don't really want a shotgun, I know it's devastating, but I want more than 8 rounds at most.

LouisianaGunner12
July 30, 2012, 10:17 PM
I mean, is a good 7.62x39 defensive load like the Hornady TAP something that could be relied upon to stop a large, charging assailant on PCP?

Or do I have to move up to 12 gauge, .308, or .458 SOCOM and such high power rounds?

wlewisiii
July 30, 2012, 10:30 PM
My SD rifle is my deer rifle & pretty much everything rifle.

Winchester 94, 20" barrel, .30-30.

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 10:44 PM
Since we don't have a lot of data on the subject:
.223 War seems to indicate it isn't a great stopper.
7.62 X 39: Looks like the minimum for a proven stopper to me.

My rule of thumb is compare the weight of the attacker to the same size feral pig, or deer. Sure the pigs are tougher, but they don't often wear things that stop bullets, like kevlar. Guys that attacked me where over 300, maybe 350.
What would stop that size hog?

The 39 is pretty much half the energy of the .308, 30-06, or 7.62 x 54R.

There is a large difference in stopping when moving from .308 to .458 in rifle rounds. Make your choices...

Calibers I have picked:
7.62 X 54R cheap ammo, 18 cents a round, all over the place.
30-06. Had it since 1980. A classic, good enough for the 48.
.375 H&H. Great deal on the rifle. Yes, it would work on 350 pound hogs.;)
.22lr Everybody should have one.

Wish list:
.308 so when the ammo is there, I can buy it. Same with 7.62 x 39.
In Kali AK's are bringing Rolls Royce prices. :barf: Don't like inaccurate guns.
M1A, Mini 30, maybe.
AR 15, last on the list. Just never liked them that much.
YMMV.

One_Jackal
July 30, 2012, 10:57 PM
I would just find a used high point carbine. They are accurate and reliable. You can drag it behind a 4 wheeler and it will function. (I did drag mine behind a 4 wheeler) Yup, it's made of zamac and it's uglier than a bulldog after a fire. But it works and if it breaks you send it to MA and they will repair it or send a new one. For $250 it's hard to beat.

DavidMS
July 30, 2012, 11:51 PM
Figure out what works for you ergonomically and buy that.

Me? I would go with the AK47 with a folding stock and fit it with a red dot and weapon light given the choices on the list. Good stopping power and more than accurate enough for self defense at the ranges you are most likely to need it. 7.62x39 Hollow Points are more than adequate for self defense and practice ammo is cheap.

The only reason that I won't consider the mini-14 is that I would not trust the folding stock options and suspect it would loose some of its handy ness.

Good luck!

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 30, 2012, 11:53 PM
9mm ammo is the next cheapest thing to .22LR, and commonly available, which means more practice with less fuss.


You for the most part have to go online to get it but 5.45x39 is cheaper than 9mm.

The AK is less ergonomic. The safety lever while large and easy to manipulate is in a bad location. The "rock the mag" in loading and reloading is difficult under stress unless you practice a lot. It is the number one operator error that I see on the line.

I'm an AK guy and love my rifle but I agree with you. Practice does make perfect and it's instinctual for me to use it but the AR has the advantage.

Figure out what works for you ergonomically and buy that.

Me? I would go with the AK47 with a folding stock and fit it with a red dot and weapon light given the choices on the list. Good stopping power and more than accurate enough for self defense at the ranges you are most likely to need it. 7.62x39 Hollow Points are more than adequate for self defense and practice ammo is cheap.

The only reason that I won't consider the mini-14 is that I would not trust the folding stock options and suspect it would loose some of its handy ness.

Good luck!

Not sure where you would need the folding stock. I changed out the one on my AK.

coalman
July 31, 2012, 12:40 AM
Quote:
The 7.62x39mm, with quality bullets, is considerably more effective than .45 ACP

Can you show me any information on this?
The 7.62x39 offers more energy, penetration, momentum... pretty much every valuable measure that causes damage. ILLUSTRATIVE visual:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/RussianWP.jpg

So you don't think 7.62x39 is a good manstopper?
It's very good. However, IMO, one big issue here is OP has dismissed the most effective up close self-defense longarm shot-for-shot: 12 guage. ILLUSTRATIVE visual:
http://i48.tinypic.com/2100in6.jpg

Note: 30cm = 11.8"

Infidel4life11
July 31, 2012, 07:30 AM
Personally I think a rifle for HD is a bad idea all around. I have a 12ga w/tactical loads and a 9mm w/ personal defense rounds by my bed, AR's and Bolt guns in my safe. I've shot and been shot at inside of houses, if the intended target was hit all went well. However I've seen rifle rounds with my own eyes not hit their intended targets and end up 3-4 rooms away and once in someone else's house. IMO a 410 is best inside your house, Saiga 410, Mossberg 500 410 even H&R singshot 410 you can shoot down a hallway and not hit dry wall but if something is stand there it won't be after the bang. Now if I had to have a rifle for HD and all the other things you've laid out I would say a Ruger mini-14/30 if the old wood stock isn't to your liking changing them out for a folding stock isn't hard.

LouisianaGunner12
July 31, 2012, 08:20 AM
7.62 X 39: Looks like the minimum for a proven stopper to me.



That's kind of what I thought too. And honestly I'd like a rifle cartridge well above minimum, but still practical for home defense.

Then again, .45 ACP is considered more than adequate and 7.62x39 is considered more powerful than .45, so maybe I'm reading into it too much.

One_Jackal
July 31, 2012, 09:06 AM
The reason I favor the 9mm carbine is ammo. I just buy 147gr FMJ ammo for everything. 147gr american eagle ammo rips right through 24 inches of ballistic gelatin. Winchester Rangers are off the hook. The NATO load makes shooting a golf ball at 75 yards real easy. Every shot either hits the golf ball or hits so close the flying dirt moves the golf ball.

The_Armed_Therapist
July 31, 2012, 10:10 AM
With all due respect, it sounds to be like the OP doesn't like, and doesn't want to like the 7.62x39. That's fine; there's nothing wrong with that. Many have been saying, myself included, that the 7.62x39 is a great man-stopper and it's been ignored. Then, when one person mentions that the .223 is great and the 7.62 is minimal (not true), he believes it. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, I just find it odd.

LouisianaGunner12
July 31, 2012, 10:32 AM
With all due respect, it sounds to be like the OP doesn't like, and doesn't want to like the 7.62x39. That's fine; there's nothing wrong with that. Many have been saying, myself included, that the 7.62x39 is a great man-stopper and it's been ignored. Then, when one person mentions that the .223 is great and the 7.62 is minimal (not true), he believes it. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, I just find it odd.



Actually, I want to go with the 7.62x39. It's cheap and I like the guns that shoot it (SKS and AK). But I really want to make sure that the cartridge I use is more than enough for the job but still be practical. Based on the test results I've seen above, it actually seems that the 7.62x39 may be sufficient for my requirements, I'm just not sure yet.

LouisianaGunner12
July 31, 2012, 10:46 AM
I have been looking around though, I like those 18" barreled STG58 DSA FAL's in .308.

I wonder if, with a short suppressor (which I know would take some NFA paperwork), this could be a viable, practical self/home defense rifle. I do live out in the country, and I would also probably use light loads or load my own to acceptable specs.

kingcheese
July 31, 2012, 11:43 AM
A sterling is an affordable gun for most people, weighs a ton but its simple, shoots a 9x19, costs around 300-400, you could drop a deer if you had to

Art Eatman
July 31, 2012, 12:08 PM
To repeat: There is hardly ANYTHING that WON'T work.

"Defense" means up close and personal. While I doubt that I'd choose a carbine which uses a pistol round, they'd likely be sufficient in 99% of events. In all honesty, I figure that even a bolt-action deer rifle would be quite usable--but I really don't figure on pagan hordes in large numbers.

A plain-vanilla SKS, AR, Mini, AK, etc., etc., will serve quite well.

coalman
July 31, 2012, 12:16 PM
Quote:
With all due respect, it sounds to be like the OP doesn't like, and doesn't want to like the 7.62x39. That's fine; there's nothing wrong with that. Many have been saying, myself included, that the 7.62x39 is a great man-stopper and it's been ignored. Then, when one person mentions that the .223 is great and the 7.62 is minimal (not true), he believes it. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, I just find it odd.
Actually, I was thinking the same thing. That, or trying to just keep the pot stirred and the thread going.
Actually, I want to go with the 7.62x39. It's cheap and I like the guns that shoot it (SKS and AK). But I really want to make sure that the cartridge I use is more than enough for the job but still be practical. Based on the test results I've seen above, it actually seems that the 7.62x39 may be sufficient for my requirements, I'm just not sure yet.
Sufficient? Honestly, I've never really read/heard someone - being serious, and who is not an AR disciple - question if the 7.62x39 is "suffient". It more than is and that comment raises my eyebrows some as to the sincerity of the inquiry. Whether you like it or not, and whether it meets your imagined/real needs or not, is different.

Regardless, I keep coming back to the 12 guage as the most effective (i.e. more than "sufficient") and versatile longgun for up close use. If it must be a high power rifle, the AK47 for the fantasy "SHTF" only use, or an AR for SHTF+plinking IMO.

shaggy430
July 31, 2012, 12:17 PM
Just to add to it:

Mosin Nagant M44. Short barreled, handy.
7.62 X 54 R= a cheap version of 30-06. Plenty of soft points I would NOT want to get hit with, and steel jacketed for those armour piercing days. Plus, it has a bayonet for close quarters combat.


I know this is going back a couple pages, but good Lord, can we not get through one single thread without someone talking about a Mosin. A 6 foot long (with bayonet) clunky, stiff bolt action rifle would be the absolute last thing I would ever use.

Matthew Courtney
July 31, 2012, 12:20 PM
Since you already own a .308 Bolt rifle, that is what I suggest for you- .308. With respect to stopping power in centerfire rifles, quality hits are more important than caliber. If you practice in low light, you can get hits in low light. Training and practice are much more important than caliber.

JShirley
July 31, 2012, 01:18 PM
Post #84 scientifically illustrates that a .223 is not only more effective, but considerably safer for home defense than 9x19mm, .45 ACP, or 12 gauge loaded with 00.

John

Prosser
July 31, 2012, 02:53 PM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu143.htm

"Conclusions:

Hereís the bottom line: Rifles > Shotguns > Pistols.

Do as you please, but thatís just the facts. "

Warp
July 31, 2012, 03:26 PM
Personally I think a rifle for HD is a bad idea all around. I have a 12ga w/tactical loads and a 9mm w/ personal defense rounds by my bed, AR's and Bolt guns in my safe. I've shot and been shot at inside of houses, if the intended target was hit all went well. However I've seen rifle rounds with my own eyes not hit their intended targets and end up 3-4 rooms away and once in someone else's house. IMO a 410 is best inside your house, Saiga 410, Mossberg 500 410 even H&R singshot 410 you can shoot down a hallway and not hit dry wall but if something is stand there it won't be after the bang. Now if I had to have a rifle for HD and all the other things you've laid out I would say a Ruger mini-14/30 if the old wood stock isn't to your liking changing them out for a folding stock isn't hard.

Good bet that the 12 gauge and the 9mm will penetrate more walls than 5.56 out of an AR.



I choose an AR. If for some reason you doubt its capacity to stop, use a quality defensive load, there are a lot aimed at LEO use that are very good.

Prosser
July 31, 2012, 03:43 PM
"I have been looking around though, I like those 18" barreled STG58 DSA FAL's in .308.

I wonder if, with a short suppressor (which I know would take some NFA paperwork), this could be a viable, practical self/home defense rifle. I do live out in the country, and I would also probably use light loads or load my own to acceptable specs."
1100 dollars for an Austrian FAL? That sounds too good to be true. If it's that good, go with it.
I gather you are in .308 already? Then stay there. I'm not sure for the possibility of home defense I'm running out and getting a new caliber.

Is that rifle adjustable for light loads? Gas pressure setting?

I would also be looking at the M1A. Very accurate, and they seem to shoot better with short barrels. Less Barrel whip.

Don't know if I'd want this short a barrel:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_41/products_id/32596/Springfield+M1A+SOCOMII+308+CARBON+Black

Prosser
July 31, 2012, 03:45 PM
Politics determine how your law is applied in your area. Since the HR suggests we don't discuss law, I'm not going to make a recommendation for your HD gun, since I can't discuss your states law.
What I would suggest is you contact your LEO and DA, and an attorney that would represent you, and find out how your state's written law is applied in your area.

hirundo82
July 31, 2012, 03:47 PM
So you don't think 7.62x39 is a good manstopper?


The Soviets apparently didn't think it was superior to the 5.56x45, since they switched to a similar round after observing their allies' experience against it in several conflicts.

And yes, I'm aware the considerations that go into choosing an issue weapon are very different from those for a HD weapon.

Prosser
July 31, 2012, 04:22 PM
Politics determine how your law is applied in your area. Since the HR suggests we don't discuss law, I'm not going to make a recommendation for your HD gun, since I can't discuss your states law.
What I would suggest is you contact your LEO and DA, and an attorney that would represent you, and find out how your state's written law is applied in your area.

DeMilled
July 31, 2012, 04:52 PM
I have been looking around though, I like those 18" barreled STG58 DSA FAL's in .308.

I wonder if, with a short suppressor (which I know would take some NFA paperwork), this could be a viable, practical self/home defense rifle. I do live out in the country, and I would also probably use light loads or load my own to acceptable specs.

A word of caution about DSA; they don't seem to put much effort into customer service on retail sales. Google DSA and customer service, DSA FAL bolts and read up on them before you spend your money.

Call up Mark Graham at Arizona Response Systems and talk to him about what sort of FAL will suite you needs. His rifles are second to none and he'll take care of you.


I don't remember the details but FALs don't seem to like suppressors. Might want to google that one for a few minutes before you get your heart set on it.

Reloading for the FAL is well worth it! I have great hunting ammo, plinking ammo worked up from military pulled bullets, and I get to shoot a lot more with the savings. The only commercial ammo I own is one magazines worth of the RRLP for home defense.
http://www.ssarmory.com/7.62x51_ammunition_150gr_barnes_rrlp_fb_frangible.aspx

No need to use "light loads" for anything you want to do, just use the proper bullet for the job and you'll see great results.

mljdeckard
July 31, 2012, 04:57 PM
By the way, yet another place I went fishing as a kid just got busted for a pot grow, over 4000 plants. Three persons arrested, weapons seized, belived to be run by Mexican organized crime. Just sayin'.

FMF Doc
July 31, 2012, 05:01 PM
If you have a revolver in .357 or .44, I would get a lever action carbine in the same caliber. You only need to carry one kind of ammo, but if you handload, you can taylor the loads to the purpose. You really get the best of both worlds. If you are an auto loader buy, then I would go with what you can afford. If you budget is lower, then you will probably want to look at the various AK varients. If money is less of an issue, you can get into the quality AR platforms. If you really have some cash, the 6.8SPC ARs are about as good as you can do.

One_Jackal
July 31, 2012, 05:21 PM
@Prosser just because someone is on your property you can't shoot them without doing time.. The LA castle doctrine says you have to be in fear of your life. Not go ahead and shoot trespassers. If you are out there exchanging rifle shots with your neighbor you both are going to jail. I know everyone fears the river rats but 90% of them can do no more than paint a pentagram in your driveway and leave a dead chicken in it. That doesn't constitute the use of deadly force, only a good ass whipping.

Prosser
July 31, 2012, 05:46 PM
Deleted due to
"6. We cannot provide a comprehensive list of "Things Not To Say". Posts that are contrary to the above policies, or to the mission of The High Road, may be edited or deleted at our sole discretion. Membership may be temporarily or permanently revoked if such a step is deemed necessary by us. We're a private venture enabled by an all-volunteer staff. Please treat this venue as a polite discussion in a friend's home and respect the wishes of the hosts.


We have learned from bitter experience that discussions of politics, abortion, religion, and sexual orientation often degenerate into less-than-polite arguments or claims that "my God is better than your God". For this reason, we do not discuss such subjects on THR, and any threads dealing primarily with these subjects will be closed or deleted immediately. Threads which deal with other subjects, but which mention abortion, religion or sexual orientation as a side issue, may be allowed to continue, but will be closely scrutinized, and closed or deleted if they "cross the line".
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__________________

Prosser
July 31, 2012, 05:53 PM
Deleted due to
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We have learned from bitter experience that discussions of politics, abortion, religion, and sexual orientation often degenerate into less-than-polite arguments or claims that "my God is better than your God". For this reason, we do not discuss such subjects on THR, and any threads dealing primarily with these subjects will be closed or deleted immediately. Threads which deal with other subjects, but which mention abortion, religion or sexual orientation as a side issue, may be allowed to continue, but will be closely scrutinized, and closed or deleted if they "cross the line".
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__________________

FMJMIKE
July 31, 2012, 09:19 PM
I bought a cheap Saiga .223 caliber rifle and converted it to pistol grip configuration. The .223 round will be effective without having too much over penetration. The rifle will fire with the stock folded too for maneuvering around the house or exiting a vehicle. It has low recoil also. Ammo for it is easy to get. A scope can be easily mounted if you want to hunt with it. Red dots can also be mounted for low light situations. Its an AK so it will be very reliable. Only downside is magazine prices.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/SAIGA2.jpg

Ignition Override
August 1, 2012, 01:29 AM
In typical civilian settings excluding an urban riot, it surprises me that an attacker would reveal ('telegraph') his intentions from more than about ten yards away, if that far. Why would they not want to sneak up on people?

Even the M-1 Carbine with Soft Tip bullets is often considered as an adequate self-defense rifle from a civilian self-defense distance.

Prosser
August 1, 2012, 01:33 AM
Gentleman lives in the country, in Louisiana. People often have dogs, or views that provide early warning of incoming bad guys.

Inebriated
August 1, 2012, 01:38 AM
Arsenal or Saiga AK in 7.62x39.

With Hornady defensive loads, you get very good expansion and limited penetration, but in the woods, a good SP load would do beautifully for anything in the Louisiana area.

One_Jackal
August 1, 2012, 01:52 AM
@Prosser I own 80 acres just north of Alexandria. Your telling me it's OK to shoot a trespasser when he presents no threat to me or my family. I trained horses at the Fairgrounds, Evangeline Downs, LA Downs and Delta Downs for over 20 years. The entire time I have had one or more off-track training facility. It is not OK to shoot someone for messing with a valuable horse. But shooting some poacher or trespasser is OK. I am very familiar with LA laws and how they are enforced. You keep believing that. I hope you have someone to look after you while you are in prison.

Warp
August 1, 2012, 01:54 AM
@Prosser I own 80 acres just north of Alexandria. Your telling me it's OK to shoot a trespasser when he presents no threat to me or my family. I trained horses at the Fairgrounds, Evangeline Downs, LA Downs and Delta Downs for over 20 years. The entire time I have had one or more off-track training facility. I am very familiar with LA laws and how they are enforced. You keep believing that. I hope you have someone to look after you while you are in prison.

Note that Prosser added the "and displays firearms" qualification.

What I don't understand, though, Prosser...how does the intruder "refuse to leave" when s/he is 200 or more yards away? Refusing to leave, if you ask me, implies that you have requested/demanded they leave. How do (actively...not just the presence of a sign) you do that when they are hundreds of yards away?

snake284
August 1, 2012, 02:00 AM
I know most say use a shotgun for home defense, but I don't care for them.

I want a rifle/carbine that I can use as my "go to" self defense rifle. It'll be for home defense and truck gun, may use it to take deer or such if the occasion calls for it. It should also be suitable for any catastrophes that some call "SHTF." But mainly it's a home defense, truck defense, hiking defense rifle. Preferably semi auto, though I'd consider lever action if it's plainly the best choice.

What would be something good for this? I want it to be in a caliber that's really known and proven to stop a determined aggressor who may be on some substance. (We have a lot of that here.)

It's not always about what you care for. A shotgun in my opinion is a much more practical choice for home defense, a hand gun more practicle for traveling or carry, and a rifle for hunting and target shooting. The problem with a rifle is that it will penetrate a house and can penetrate a neighbor's house. Also, you've got to be more accurate than with a shotgun. You point a shotgun and you aim a rifle.

For my own use, I prefer rifles over any firearms. But when you're carrying or you need to defend your house, a shotgun is more effective.

Warp
August 1, 2012, 02:51 AM
It's not always about what you care for. A shotgun in my opinion is a much more practical choice for home defense, a hand gun more practicle for traveling or carry, and a rifle for hunting and target shooting. The problem with a rifle is that it will penetrate a house and can penetrate a neighbor's house. Also, you've got to be more accurate than with a shotgun. You point a shotgun and you aim a rifle.

For my own use, I prefer rifles over any firearms. But when you're carrying or you need to defend your house, a shotgun is more effective.

.223/5.56 penetrates fewer walls (less house) than handgun rounds or buckshot out of a shotgun.

So, if you consider .223/5.56 for the rifle the handgun/shotgun are more of a penetration problem...quite the opposite from what you are saying.

Prosser
August 1, 2012, 06:24 AM
Deleted due to
"6. We cannot provide a comprehensive list of "Things Not To Say". Posts that are contrary to the above policies, or to the mission of The High Road, may be edited or deleted at our sole discretion. Membership may be temporarily or permanently revoked if such a step is deemed necessary by us. We're a private venture enabled by an all-volunteer staff. Please treat this venue as a polite discussion in a friend's home and respect the wishes of the hosts.


We have learned from bitter experience that discussions of politics, abortion, religion, and sexual orientation often degenerate into less-than-polite arguments or claims that "my God is better than your God". For this reason, we do not discuss such subjects on THR, and any threads dealing primarily with these subjects will be closed or deleted immediately. Threads which deal with other subjects, but which mention abortion, religion or sexual orientation as a side issue, may be allowed to continue, but will be closely scrutinized, and closed or deleted if they "cross the line".
Warning by JShirley.

Para-Medic
August 1, 2012, 08:40 AM
I don't plan on shooting someone more than 20 yards away, really. I'm not gonna shoot someone just because they're trespassing. Even if they were vandalizing or something, I don't think shooting them would be the proper action. I put an immense value on human life, and unless mine or that of my family is in imminent danger, I don't think shooting is the best option.

Robert
August 1, 2012, 08:51 AM
This has become too personal with too much bickering and inability to follow the simple rules and mission of THR. OP you have 5 pages of opinion to pick through. Good luck.

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