affordable .45-70 Double rifle


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guitarguy314
July 30, 2012, 01:12 PM
Hey guys!

I was wondering if anyone had any idea about .45-70 double rifles.

I'm not looking to shell out tens of thousands for a H&H (In my dreams), so does anyone know of any good double rifles currently in production that won't break the bank?

Thanks!

L

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JohnBT
July 30, 2012, 01:52 PM
Oops, it doesn't come in .45-70.

www.americanrifleman.org/articles/sabatti-model-92-deluxe-review

Texan Scott
July 30, 2012, 01:53 PM
EEA imports one by Sabatti... the fancy one's about 6 grand... the case-hardened, unengraved .45-70 was more like 3 something... 24 in barrels, nice wood, best prices I've seen in a double... reviewed by Roy Huntington a couple years ago... he seemed to like it. still pricey.

H&Hhunter
July 30, 2012, 02:19 PM
Beware of Sabatti rifles they have some serious issues. The primary one being that they try to regulate them by grinding out rifling at the crown. Cabelas has a huge return rate on these rifles for QC issues.

Here is an all to common example of what I'm talking about. There is no excuse for this kind of shoddy crud. This a photo of a crown ground down from the Sabatti factory on a .450 NE. This rifle came out of the factory this way!!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/Sabatticrown.jpg

H&Hhunter
July 30, 2012, 02:27 PM
So to answer the OP's question to get a functional reliable properly regulated light double you are looking at a minimum of about 5K. Sorry to be the buzz kill but that is the hard cold truth. Any cheaper than that and you are just pissing your money away on junk. You are money ahead to save up the extra couple of grand and get a real rifle.

Look at a Chapuis UGEX in 9.3x74R that is about the cheapest, dependable, shootable, useable double rifle made.

Texan Scott
July 30, 2012, 02:48 PM
Or... get a .45-70 lever action.

H&Hhunter
July 30, 2012, 03:13 PM
Not nearly as mystical but probably one heck of a lot more useable for the average guy, those lever guns are..:D

However there ain't no getting over desire sometimes! BTDT.

Texan Scott
July 30, 2012, 03:42 PM
All I know is, 5k would about cover the cost of everything i could justify to the wife and find a place to put... I could have a LOT of nice, new, perfectly servicable guns for 5k....

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 03:45 PM
Pedroseli, if you can find one. Under 2K.

Also liked the Merkels, but they don't come in the caliber you are looking for.

guitarguy314
July 30, 2012, 04:50 PM
Thanks guys!
@ Texan Scott: .45-70 lever guns are nice, and fun to shoot besides, but like H&H said, not as mystical. I've always been a sucker for unusual large bore guns. XD

Now if I could find someone to build a double lever action rifle. haha

Dr.Rob
July 30, 2012, 05:07 PM
Cabela's used to sell a Pedersoli made copy of a Colt 1878 double rifle in .45/70.. while it looked attractive I don't know anyone that actually HAS one.

Prices have gone way over 5k in recent years.

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 05:36 PM
Are you talking about the external hammer model?
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/Jack%20and%20the%20jug/Jackandjug2.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/Jack%20and%20the%20jug/Jackandthejugtheshot450nitro.jpg

500 grains, @ 2150 fps.
:what:

Cheap double rifle stopper.

paintballdude902
July 30, 2012, 05:38 PM
there was a remington pretty sure it was made by EAA

huntsman
July 30, 2012, 05:43 PM
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Sabatti-Basic-Double-Classic45-70-NEW/1185086.uts?Ntk=GunLibrary&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch%2F%3FN%3D%26No%3D80%26Ntk%3DGunLibrary%26Ntt%3D45%252F70%26Ntx%3Dmode%252Bmatchallpartial%26WTz_st%3D%26WTz_stype%3DSP%26form_state%3DsearchForm%26recordsPerPage%3D20%26search%3D45%252F70%26searchTypeByFilter%3DGunLibrary%26x%3D32%26y%3D5&Ntt=45%2F70

or instead a #1

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Ruger-No1S-45-70-Govt/1402894.uts?Ntk=GunLibrary&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch%2F%3FN%3D%26No%3D80%26Ntk%3DGunLibrary%26Ntt%3D45%252F70%26Ntx%3Dmode%252Bmatchallpartial%26WTz_st%3D%26WTz_stype%3DSP%26form_state%3DsearchForm%26recordsPerPage%3D20%26search%3D45%252F70%26searchTypeByFilter%3DGunLibrary%26x%3D32%26y%3D5&Ntt=45%2F70

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 05:48 PM
There is a double for 715. on gun broker, in 45-70.
By someone I've never heard of.

Also a Pedroseli double for 2800 in .45-70 with external hammers.

dprice3844444
July 30, 2012, 05:52 PM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=298986159
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=298891249
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=299037418

drsfmd
July 30, 2012, 06:36 PM
there was a remington pretty sure it was made by EAA

Made by Baikal in Russia and it's a horribly regulated piece of junk. Save your money.

joecil
July 30, 2012, 06:45 PM
I've never seen one with 45-70 Gov but have seen a filler piece to fit into a 20 ga and 12 ga shotgun. I personally just bought a Rossi Rio Grande at Bud's today for $437 + sales tax of 6% with 20" barrel, blued with scope rail. After cleaning the gun is very smooth, no blemish of any kind in the wood or machine marks on the gun. I was actually impressed with the fit and finish on this gun.

WardenWolf
July 30, 2012, 06:49 PM
The Baikals are actually pretty nice, as I understand. They just need a little bit of tuning (as any side by side rifle does) to get the barrels to both hit the same spot.

Dr.Rob
July 30, 2012, 06:53 PM
Yes prosser that's the one I meant. ;)

drsfmd
July 30, 2012, 07:13 PM
The Baikals are actually pretty nice, as I understand. They just need a little bit of tuning (as any side by side rifle does) to get the barrels to both hit the same spot.

I've seen a few, and was tempted to buy one, but they look like they were finished with a grinder in a high school shop class. Atrocious quality, and well known for poor barrel regulation.

HankB
July 30, 2012, 07:35 PM
I really like the balance of the Sabatti .45/70 that I hefted at Cabela's . . . but it seemed awfully stiff, had extractors only, and was in the company of several "refurbished" rifles in the rack.

Being wary of a new rifle that has a large "refurbished" population already, and having been burned by being an early adopter of a new pistol (Kahr P9) that was a lemon, I decided to pass on the Sabatti until it's been around enough years to get some feedback in forums like this.

H&H's picture of the "regulation" method the factory uses verified I made the right decision.

JohnBT
July 30, 2012, 07:42 PM
"regulate them by grinding out rifling at the crown"

They do WHAT? Oh dear me, as my mother used to say. I've never even considered such a thing.

John

WardenWolf
July 30, 2012, 07:50 PM
I've seen a few, and was tempted to buy one, but they look like they were finished with a grinder in a high school shop class. Atrocious quality, and well known for poor barrel regulation.
The newer ones at least look nicer.

Jim Watson
July 30, 2012, 07:56 PM
500 grains, @ 2150 fps.


That is an awful lot out of a .45-70 econo-express, more than .458 Win Mag or .450 NE.
Has it been cut to .45x3.25 or .450 NE?

hang fire
July 30, 2012, 08:50 PM
"regulate them by grinding out rifling at the crown"

They do WHAT? Oh dear me, as my mother used to say. I've never even considered such a thing.

John
There was a time when muzzleloading smoothbore doubles were regulated for shot by cutting ends of the muzzles at a desired angle.

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 09:08 PM
Mr. Watson:
yes, the gun was converted to .450 Nitro Express, and a stalking safety added.
Jack Huntington's gun, and work. That's Jack in the pictures shooting the gun.

He used it to kill a beefalo, around 2200 pounds, that felt like the truck they were in was a threat to his territory. Or, more likely, he was just flat out mean with a bad temper.
He was trying to gore the side of the truck, with good results. Jack managed to get out, get off one barrel. The Beefalo went down, hard. What they don't tell you, in his words, is the animal gets right back up. As it was doing that, he brained it with the other barrel. Dead Beefalo, alot of meat and butchering to be done.

The rifle was sold a while back.

The gun was pretty much regulated @ 50 yards. Jack did very little accuracy tuning.

conhntr
July 30, 2012, 09:26 PM
If your willing to go 9.3x74 beretta and valmet had some nice o/u double rifles that can be had for under 5000$

Like this
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Beretta-S689E-93x74R-OU-Double-Rifle/1347200.uts?Ntk=GunLibrary&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DGunLibrary%26Ntt%3DDouble%2Brifle%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-Gun%2BLibrary&Ntt=Double+rifle

2360fps/3359ft-lbs for a 286 gr

Most 45-70 loads dont exceed that by much if at all

musicman10_1
July 30, 2012, 09:40 PM
I've been reading Dangerous Game Rifles by Terry Wieland and it seems that one needs to really have a lot of knowledge and a lot of money to buy a safe - working properly - regulated double rifle. It is actually kind of depressing because I have been bitten by the big bore bug and really want a big express rifle.

barnbwt
July 30, 2012, 09:41 PM
The worst I've heard (consistently) about the Baikals is how heavy they are. I've been awfully tempted by the combination guns, in anything from 30-06/12ga, to .223/20ga. Finish quality aside, they are probably the most available "budget" factory-new double rifles (or combo guns) that don't fall apart after 100 rounds. As far as accuracy; unless you pay 1000's for hand-regulated precision doubles, none will likely be particularly suited for anything beyond close range work.

I mean, that's the point, you snipe the game animal with the "known" POI of the first barrel, and use the second as a backup if your first shot just pisses off Yogi, Bullwinkle, or Rhino (can't think of a character). How accurate can you be with express sights, anyway? That said, I'd love to see some targets from an actual owner to answer the question once and for all.

TCB

Prosser
July 30, 2012, 09:46 PM
Merkel's and Chapuis work just fine. They are in the 4-7 grand range, new.
9.3 x 74R hits like a 375 H&H with the right ammo, and carries and shoots like a 6 pound 22lr.

The point of a double stopper is your first shot, taken in haste, stuns or drops the animal for a second, giving you a chance to brain it with the other barrel.
They suck if you decide your chasing the same buffalo as a pack of lions...

H&Hhunter
July 31, 2012, 11:13 AM
That said, I'd love to see some targets from an actual owner to answer the question once and for all.


barnbwt,

Ask and you shall receive !

My Searcy .470 NE this is my regulation load at 50 Yards two from the right barrel two form the left off of a sand bag rest. The rifle will shoot a sub 3" group with express sights from both barrels at 100 yards.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/DSC03509.jpg

This from my .404 Jeffery with express sights @50 yards off of shooting sticks from a standing position.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/Dakotatarget1.jpg

There are many misconceptions about double rifles and big bores express rifles one of which is a myth about poor accuracy. It's been my experience that most big bore rifles are capable;e of extreme accuracy . Most shooters however are not capable of shooting them to their potential. IT takes a lot of time and effort to learn to shoot a double or any heavy rifle well. There is some definite technique differences involved that differ from a "standard" light rifle in the .270 through say the .338 WM level as an example.

Sheepdog1968
July 31, 2012, 12:24 PM
H&H Hunter, I respect your opinion. You had said, "Beware of Sabatti rifles they have some serious issues. The primary one being that they try to regulate them by grinding out rifling at the crown. Cabelas has a huge return rate on these rifles for QC issues." This grinding does seem like a shoddy way to regulate the barrels. Personally I've been holding off on a double till I can afford one at a higher price point. Having said that, are there any safety issues or reliability issues with the Sabatti's? Do they seem to hold up ok? A friend of mine bought a Sabatti in 45-70. He has several nice doubles and he was curious and at the price point he figured what the heck. He's been too busy with other firearms to take it out that much. We did take it out once I I only shot four rounds and it seemed to work as advertised. He's had it out a few other times and seemed to enjoy it. I've decided to hold off till I can afford more but I understand the appeal. Just curious what else you know about them, good or bad.

DPris
July 31, 2012, 12:52 PM
The Pedersoli Kodiak in .45-70 at around $4500 is a nice gun, regulated to 50 yards, and is decently accurate & not too heavy.
Has hammers, but if you don't mind those it's a candidate.
Denis

macadore
July 31, 2012, 01:54 PM
I've been looking at the Baikal. Not a bench rest rifle, but looks like an excellent short range thumper.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/60304

H&Hhunter
July 31, 2012, 07:37 PM
Having said that, are there any safety issues or reliability issues with the Sabatti's? Do they seem to hold up ok?

I don't know of any safety issues in particular to a Sabatti, in fact I don't know of any reliability issues either. The main problem is accuracy and regulation. The way they are put together it is very difficult to unsolder them to re regulate. That is why they try and fix them on the cheap with a Dremel tool inside the barrel. So if your gun is poorly regulated from the factory you are kind of stuck with it.

So you'll have a 3K + toy that can't hit an elephants butt if you were riding him. That's enough to keep me away. Especially when for just 2K more you can get into a real rifle that is properly built and supported from the factory.

Hizzie
July 31, 2012, 07:57 PM
I had a Baikal in 30.06 that was a blast. Built like an AK, rough but servicable. Shot M2 ball to POA with no adjustments at 50M. New owner slapped a 3-9 on top and with mid grade 180gr ammo both barrels shoot to POA putting 6 shots (3 each barrel) into 3" @ 100yds. They are hit or miss though.

Jalexander
July 31, 2012, 11:06 PM
Not cheap, but Bailey Bradshaw has taken to building double rifles in the last few years. I've never handled one, but if the quality of his rifles is anything like that of the knives he used to make, they're worth every penny.

http://www.bradshawgunandrifle.com/Farquharson_Double_Rifle_1B.php

James

H&Hhunter
July 31, 2012, 11:33 PM
Bailey Bradshaw's double falling block rifles are cool out of this world. Expensive but for what you are getting they are a serious bargain. You couldn't duplicate it for twice the money.

I have seriously considered trying to swing one of those. It just ain't happening right now.:(

barnbwt
July 31, 2012, 11:34 PM
Cool, glad to hear some folks get good results from the Baikals. Even if rough made, they seem a bit too cheap to be true, but it looks like they really are a good deal. I do figure that they're like cheap double shotguns, in that they shoot loose far sooner than their pricier counterparts. However, unlike a SxS 12ga, it's much tougher (and much more expensive) for most folks to tally the hundreds of rounds needed to shake even a cheap action loose on a rifle. Anyone have any longevity experience with the cheap doubles? Durability/breakage issues?

TCB

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