AK supposed to eat anything; same can't be said for HK91/PTR?


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DefiantDad
July 30, 2012, 04:05 PM
I was reading this

http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/05/pats_product_reviews_the_ptr91.html

so, what are your thoughts on the HK91 and/or the PTR91 regarding ammo versatility?

Should I just throw away the assumption that either of these HK91 platforms will actually feed reliably with a very wide range of .308?

(I like the highly durable roller delayed blowback action).

Thanks.

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dmancornell
July 30, 2012, 04:49 PM
The PTR91 GI model has the correct fluting and will work with milsurp ammo. Plus it's cheaper to boot.

DefiantDad
July 30, 2012, 04:56 PM
I want rails for bipod + scope.

How about the Squad Carbine?

http://www.ptr91.com/products/PTR91SC?id=9

GCMkc
July 30, 2012, 05:04 PM
I have a lower serial AW# PTR-91K (the ones that aren't supposed to like milsurp) and it has shot the following without a single malfunction:

Wolf
Silver Bear
Brown Bear
Pakistani Milsurp
Federal
Remington
Privi
Reloads

PTR now has a lifetime warranty on all factory parts which is a big plus. My rifle looks great and shoots even better. You will NOT be disappointed with a PTR rifle.

dmancornell
July 30, 2012, 05:11 PM
I want rails for bipod + scope.

How about the Squad Carbine?

http://www.ptr91.com/products/PTR91SC?id=9

The issue is the fluting is not deep enough on regular PTR's and they won't extract tar-sealed ammo. The GI model is the only one with the correct chamber, none of the other PTR's have it.

robertrtg sells a wide handguard with an integrated bipod.

For scopes, he also has claw to rail scope mounts. Or you can buy the superb surplus Hensoldt Z24 4x scope instead.

gunnutery
July 30, 2012, 05:18 PM
As others have said, the fluting should make it much more versatile in ammo choices. I didn't realize that the GI model was the only one that was in "spec."

DefiantDad
July 30, 2012, 05:22 PM
Question: If I clean the non-GI versions, after every 50 or 100 rounds, do you think the shallow flutes will be a problem? I know this goes against the whole point of the high reliability of the roller action but, just asking.

dmancornell
July 30, 2012, 05:32 PM
Question: If I clean the non-GI versions, after every 50 or 100 rounds, do you think the shallow flutes will be a problem? I know this goes against the whole point of the high reliability of the roller action but, just asking.
A friend tried some of my German DAG in his newly cleaned PTR91 with the shallow fluting, and it choked within 20 rounds.

DefiantDad
July 30, 2012, 05:38 PM
Yikes.

I am not happy with this discovery...

AK103K
July 30, 2012, 06:39 PM
Dont know about the PTR, but the two HK91's I owned gobbled up anything I put in them without issue.

DefiantDad
July 30, 2012, 06:47 PM
I have to really work the budget to get the HK91. My LGS sells a few of them, for maybe the price or 2 or 3 PTRs. I have to give this real consideration.

Trent
July 30, 2012, 09:45 PM
HK91's will eat anything.

And they'll shoot until they're so damn gummed up its ridiculous.

And the GET so damn gummed up when you shoot them, it's ridiculous.

Dirtiest damn rifle I've ever laid my hands on.

LOVE shooting it.

HATE.. absolutely HATE cleaning it.

DefiantDad
July 30, 2012, 10:51 PM
How often do you clean it?

stubbicatt
July 31, 2012, 08:38 AM
Cleaning is a breeze with the proper brushes and cleaning rod. Use Simple Green diluted or other water based solvents on a 4" square of t-shirt wrapped around the brush and it cleans right up. No crusty piston to stress over or anything else like that.

Trent
July 31, 2012, 11:24 AM
DefiantDad;

I've shot my HK91, G3, and CETME's all to the point of failure numerous times. Usually I only clean them if I know I'm going to do a bunch of shooting with it. Or they fail WHILE doing a bunch of shooting. :)

The delayed roller blowback operation results in a massive amount of carbon crud getting thrown back in to the bolt, around the bolt, in to the receiver, and so on. That design is the most heavily fouling one I own, period.

The failures I've experienced are universally failure to feed. These rifles eject so violently you don't want to be on the receiving end - you MUST give shooters to your right fair warning before shooting to avoid raining burning brass on to them - even if they're 50+ feet away...

Failures start happening when enough "crud" builds up to slow the forward motion of the bolt carrier group down. This is a combination of residue in the receiver/on the bolt carrier, and to a much lesser degree, the chamber proper.

Powder Blast (made by break free) is probably THE best solution for these, in the field, as you can take the bolt out, hose it down, hose the chamber down, and the inside of the receiver.

In a pinch, lacking cleaning supplies, you can also get some motor oil off the dipstick of your truck and liberally coat the bolt with it and the chamber. This will return this type of firearm to functional for awhile, but it will also rapidly accelerate the rate of fouling from that point because oil and carbon crud makes a nasty combination after awhile. (Whatever oil doesn't burn off starts to form a thick sludge).

They're great rifles, don't get me wrong, but DUDE.. they are horribly dirty to shoot.

dmancornell
July 31, 2012, 02:22 PM
DefiantDad;

I've shot my HK91, G3, and CETME's all to the point of failure numerous times. Usually I only clean them if I know I'm going to do a bunch of shooting with it. Or they fail WHILE doing a bunch of shooting. :)

The delayed roller blowback operation results in a massive amount of carbon crud getting thrown back in to the bolt, around the bolt, in to the receiver, and so on. That design is the most heavily fouling one I own, period.

The failures I've experienced are universally failure to feed. These rifles eject so violently you don't want to be on the receiving end - you MUST give shooters to your right fair warning before shooting to avoid raining burning brass on to them - even if they're 50+ feet away...

Failures start happening when enough "crud" builds up to slow the forward motion of the bolt carrier group down. This is a combination of residue in the receiver/on the bolt carrier, and to a much lesser degree, the chamber proper.

Powder Blast (made by break free) is probably THE best solution for these, in the field, as you can take the bolt out, hose it down, hose the chamber down, and the inside of the receiver.

In a pinch, lacking cleaning supplies, you can also get some motor oil off the dipstick of your truck and liberally coat the bolt with it and the chamber. This will return this type of firearm to functional for awhile, but it will also rapidly accelerate the rate of fouling from that point because oil and carbon crud makes a nasty combination after awhile. (Whatever oil doesn't burn off starts to form a thick sludge).

They're great rifles, don't get me wrong, but DUDE.. they are horribly dirty to shoot.
Thanks for the info, I've holding off on cleaning mine until it fails to see how far it will go, 2k rounds so far and it's still going strong.

splithoof
July 31, 2012, 04:20 PM
Don't hold your breath. I have seen a number of 91 A2's & A3's go for several years of hard use without cleaning. However, because of their value in today's market, I think it wise to take good care of the bores.
I have handled a number of PTR 91's, and was not impressed by what I saw at the time as compared to the original HK product. As for ammunition, I have yet to see a real HK 91 or 93 that failed to eat just about anything. Save up for the original, it is worth the wait.

DefiantDad
July 31, 2012, 04:26 PM
Trent, thanks very much for the detailed description. I am actually really surprised because based on what I read / hear, the HK91 is supposed to be the most durable, even more than the AK, and should NEVER require cleaning, and eat anything. Designed as the ultimate durable battle rifle for extended field conditions without support or maintenance.

No?

AK103K
July 31, 2012, 06:19 PM
Everything requires cleaning and maintenance, regardless what it is. I always cleaned my 91's after every outing, just like I do my AR's, AK's, or anything else. Ive never understood the mentality of not cleaning them. Just sounds like lazy to me.

Even under extended conditions, if youre planing on counting on them for anything, the guns get cleaned and maintained all along. This aint "Call of Duty". :)


As far as ejection goes, if you want to reload your brass and/or shoot with others nearby, you'll want to get a port buffer. It redirects the brass, and keeps it from getting damaged by impacting the edge of the port.

DefiantDad
July 31, 2012, 07:07 PM
I think you misunderstand slightly. The intention was not to DELIBERATELY not clean them, but that when you HAVE NO CHOICE (no cleaning supplies, no time) and have to use whatever .308 ammo you can get, then which is the more dependable .308 SLR?

HK91? M1A? AR10? FAL?

Supposed to be HK91.

splithoof
July 31, 2012, 07:25 PM
I believe in the above scenario, based on some experience with each, the AR10 will require maintenance sooner. With regular proper care they will all work just fine.

AK103K
July 31, 2012, 07:27 PM
I think you misunderstand slightly.
No, I understood what you were saying. You always have a choice and time at some point, and in certain situations, weapons get priority for care and maintenance.

Any of those rifles you have listed will run without issue for thousands of rounds without cleaning. Its really not a realistic "test", but they will easily do it. Ive shot a case or two though my 91's, AK's, AR's, M1A's, and FAL's at an outing and they never skipped a beat. My MP5 and MAC have had five times that on occasion, and no problems. All were cleaned at the first reasonable opportunity, some in the field, some when I got home, depending on where and what we were doing.

If you have a "true" spec gun, any of those in your list shouldnt be a problem. Its the "copies" that usually are the problem.

DefiantDad
July 31, 2012, 07:32 PM
OK.

The_Armed_Therapist
August 1, 2012, 11:48 AM
The reliability of the PTR91 relative to all types of ammo is an X-factor. Mine eats anything. It's newer (2 years old max) with the bull barrel. I was very skeptical when I purchased it, but I had a good friend willing to buy it from me if I didn't like it; so I tried it, and it shoots everything.

DefiantDad
August 1, 2012, 02:13 PM
The reliability of the PTR91 relative to all types of ammo is an X-factor. Mine eats anything. It's newer (2 years old max) with the bull barrel. I was very skeptical when I purchased it, but I had a good friend willing to buy it from me if I didn't like it; so I tried it, and it shoots everything.

Which model is it? Thanks.

The_Armed_Therapist
August 1, 2012, 03:50 PM
PTR91F, AW series.

Like I said, it seems to be an X-factor. I've had no problems, but obviously others have. The only mishap I've had was a light primer strike and/or a bad round (really not sure which is most likely), but that was with good ammo, not steel or surplus or anything.

jason41987
August 1, 2012, 04:21 PM
problem with the HK91 is it literally eats your ammo... fluted chambers tend to weaken brass by leaving longitudinal creases in the metal.. just reduces how often you can reuse your brass... also, HKs tend to get dirtier quicker than for example, an AK, due to being blowback in nature you tend to get more gasses blown into it

however, with all of this ive still never known one to be unreliable

AKs very from country to country, factory to factory and there never really was any standardization, and quality control is suspect from some places so its not uncommon to get an AK that jams often... so i think it would be erroneous to assume AKs wont jam

M1key
August 1, 2012, 04:52 PM
Trent, thanks very much for the detailed description. I am actually really surprised because based on what I read / hear, the HK91 is supposed to be the most durable, even more than the AK, and should NEVER require cleaning, and eat anything. Designed as the ultimate durable battle rifle for extended field conditions without support or maintenance.

No?
Ask the Contras in Central America how reliable they were. With no/low maintenance they rusted shut with regularity. They were nowhere nearly as reliable as the AK.

Also, if you ever dent the charging handle housing hard enough, you will have a non-functioning weapon.

Keep the rollers clean and oiled...

M

Trent
August 1, 2012, 05:02 PM
M1key - judging by the condition of some of the bolts I've seen in the G3 parts kits I've handled, I COMPLETELY believe those stories.

(Then again, I've personally SEEN an Ak-47 rusted shut after it was shot in the rain and not cleaned or used for 3 months - happened to a friend of mine. We had to use a 6 pound sledge hammer to break the bolt loose. The piston was rusted SOLID in to the gas tube.)

M1key
August 1, 2012, 05:10 PM
But it worked then right? :D

M

AK103K
August 1, 2012, 05:56 PM
problem with the HK91 is it literally eats your ammo... fluted chambers tend to weaken brass by leaving longitudinal creases in the metal.. just reduces how often you can reuse your brass...
What tends to beat up the brass is not using a port buffer. The cases tend to get heavy dents in the case form impact with the edge of the ejection port.

The flutes dont normally do any damage to the brass that effects reloading. Hard extraction and ejection, especially into hard objects does.

The only time I ever saw brass damaged to the point of not being reloadable, was when using 9mm Uzi "black tip" in my MP5. It actually started to fire form the brass into the flutes, leaving a raised portions in the brass. I dont know if it was a bad lot of brass, or overly hot loads, or maybe a combo of both, but it was the only time it occurred. I never had any troubles with any of the hot SMG only ammo I fired in it.

The soot on the brass cleans right up in the tumbler, the scratches from the flutes are usually just very light and barely noticeable.

The HK's in the rifle calibers are a lot harder on the brass than the pistol calibers. I ususally loaded the 9mm's to failure and they last forever. The rifle brass was somewhat shorter lived than my other .308 autos, and I usually only got 6-8 loads out of them, where the others were 10+.

jason41987
August 1, 2012, 06:04 PM
the flutes do effect the brass.. you can still reload it, but it will limit the number of times you can reload it, because even though its slight, it increases every time you fire the brass through it... not nearly as bad as the lack of a buffer though

another issue though with delayed blowbacks is before the bolt fully flies rearward, as the rollers are being pushed out of the way, bolt comes out slowly while the chambers still under pressure which can over-expand the mouth of the brass and further weaken it this way which is a problem of all roller or lever delayed blowbacks that im familiar with, which isnt going to be a problem on pistol calibers, which is probably why you notice their SMGs having less issues

AK103K
August 1, 2012, 06:19 PM
Ive reloaded a lot of HK91 fired brass, and the scratches from the flutes were never an issue, or at least for me.

Beat up case mouths, and sometimes the cases themselves, from impacting hard surfaces, and "stretched" brass, requiring more trimming and bringing on the case head separation "ring" sooner, were the main causes of brass being taken out of service.

Driftertank
August 3, 2012, 04:06 PM
Just watch out for AW-serial numbers below 8000. That's PTR-91F, KF, KMF, etc.

Most A# guns and AW# over about 8000 don't have issues, as far as i'm aware.

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