C & R rifle


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Red Cent
July 30, 2012, 10:26 PM
I have the normal stuff. 7s, 6s, 308, 243,....... If I wanted an inexpensive bolt action that is reasonably accurate, moderate recoil, accessible and relatively cheap ammo, what would I get? A 6.5 really appeals to me.

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adelbridge
July 30, 2012, 10:30 PM
curio & relic? If so anything before 1962

SaxonPig
July 30, 2012, 10:49 PM
The cheap ammo part sinks it. Ain't no such any longer.

Red Cent
July 31, 2012, 11:17 AM
Hey, you guys give up quick.

You know, something smaller than the 7.62X54R. I heard those things hurt. I am a prolific reloader and need something. All my handguns, rifles, and shotgun are either cowboy or relatively modern. I usually spend an enormous amount of time researching but I thought I could save some time giving you guys some criteria.

I see the $99.50 ( or thereabout ) bolt actions at Gander Mountain as I walk by. I am not sure I want to pull the trigger on something like that but what do I know.

I read Garry James' reviews on old guns but the specifics do not remain. I have never been really interested until now.

SO. What is out there in a 6.5? I get stuck on the 6.5 because of the inate accuracy of the bullet. Now I need a rifle. Throw out the possibilities so I can research specifics.

Red Cent
July 31, 2012, 11:40 AM
I guess the 6.5 Carcano is out.

gbeecher
July 31, 2012, 11:41 AM
I assure you that the 7.62x54R does not 'hurt'. I'm 5'-5" and weigh 190 lbs. My Mosin-Nagant 1891/30 is actually fun to shoot and the recoil is more of a 'push' than a hard 'kick'. Besides, you said you have 7's and a .308? Look up Chuck Hawks recoil table and you'll see that the 7.62x54R has less recoil than the .270 Winchester and .308 Winchester! Also, the 203 grain soft-point ammo I shoot has a ballistic coefficient of .333 and a sectional density of .303. The rifle/cartridge accuracy is good and penetration is above average. Don
't believe everything you hear! My gunsmith told me that the Mosin 'kicks like a mule' - he couldn't have been more wrong. I bought my Mosin-Nagant in 2010 for $89.95 online. It is completely dependable and rugged. Where else will you find that power in a centerfire rifle for that price?! It's the best bargain in firearms today. ;)

Red October
July 31, 2012, 12:29 PM
The shorter Mosins push a little harder than the 91/30s (the cheapest ones). Unless they have been sportered, they have metal butt plates, which doesn't help. These are about the least expensive entry into C&R.

In 6.5x55, your options are pretty much:
- a Swedish Mauser (several different models here)
- an AG-42 Ljungman, which won't be cheap
- a Norwegian Krag (I like these, but they are the weakest action of the bunch)
There may be others, but these are the 6.5s that I know about

Red Cent
July 31, 2012, 12:34 PM
I hear you gBeecher. Filed away for reference. I won't be hunting with it. Got old and cannot pull the trigger on deeror the other animals. Done the mule deer, white tail, hog, etc.

I compete with firearms almost every weekend.. Some of us have been talking about doing it with old bolt actions. And I started looking.

Red Cent
July 31, 2012, 12:37 PM
Red October, I just looked at this. I probably won't buy this one, but if I should want one, is it accurate enough to hit a beer can at a 100 yards, consistently? Maybe better with handloads?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=297905399

Choctaw
July 31, 2012, 01:01 PM
What about a Lee Enfield in one of its many variations? The actions are slick and 303 is a pleasure to shoot.

NCsmitty
July 31, 2012, 01:40 PM
The Swedish Mauser that you referenced at gunbroker should be a great shooter, and the 6.5x55 round is easy to load and shoot. There is little milsurp ammo available but components are readily available, and usually the Swedish Mausers are very accurate. They are a quality rifle, and usually bring around $300, give or take.
Drilling and tapping for scope mounts detract from it's historical value, but that's a choice you would have to make.


NCsmitty

hirundo82
July 31, 2012, 04:56 PM
Since you are a reloader, why not look at the Swiss K31. You can still find them for around $300, and it is tough to think of much more accurate surplus rifles. Surplus ammo isn't cheap, but reloadable brass is available from most of the usual sources and it uses .308 caliber bullets (so available in any flavor you can think of).

Dentite
July 31, 2012, 06:06 PM
Red Cent,

You can't have everything you want in your post (6.5 + cheap ammo) but you have some nice options.

The last real bargain in C&R rifles are the Russian Mosin Nagant 91-30s. These are full sized rifles that fire a full power 7.62x54R. Both the rifle and the surplus ammo can still be found cheap.

You should easily be able to find the rifle and a tin of 440 rounds of surplus ammo for $200 or less. The ammo is corrosive but is no big deal as long as you are aware of it and you are willing to spend an extra 5-10 minutes after shooting to flush the barrel of the corrosive salts.

Does it have more recoil than a .22LR? Sure, but with a slip on rubber butt pad it's very managable IMO. Standing it's very comfortable with no discomfort for me. Shooting off a bench or prone you'll feel more of a push but it's not painful with the slip on recoil pad.

Now I love 6.5 as well and in C&R your best option as mentioned above is a Swedish Mauser. The M96 is the more common variety, it's a full length rifle. This rifle will be an upgrade in quality and likely accuracy compared to a Mosin Nagant. The price reflects this...plan on $300-400 for a decent example. No cheap surplus so you'll want to reload this one.

Recoil on the 6.5x55 is noticeably less than 7.62x54R (especially in off the shelf 6.5x55 ammo because it's considered by most to be a bit downloaded compared to the original military ammo). The M96 is not considered as robust as the K98 Mausers so you can't load them up too hot.

But I would only buy either of these two rifles you want them because your interested in a military rifle.

If you just want a cheap rifle the 91-30 qualifies.

If you just want something in 6.5 there are some modern sporter style rifles made by a few of the big names in 6.5 chamberings.

firesky101
July 31, 2012, 07:47 PM
I know it is not a 6.5 but a whole lot of people love their K31's. Very good quality and accuracy even with milsurp (I should say especially with milsurp).

Dr_2_B
July 31, 2012, 07:55 PM
The shorter Mosins push a little harder

Red October wins the understatement award for this thread. First time I fired my Mosin carbine, my buddy was standing beside and behind me. I turned and looked at him after pulling the trigger and he rolled his eyes (after putting them back in his head). He explained that he felt the heat and concussion on his face before deciding that he wasn't interested in shooting it after-all.

Red Cent
July 31, 2012, 08:37 PM
Dr 2 B, that is the type of stories I get around here. Maybe they are not holding them correctly. I can tell you my memory tells me that the worst kicking rifle ws a sporterized 03.

When I started cowboy, there were "sidematches" at the big shoots that included Long Range Rifle Caliber. Most used the 45/70 in single shot or lever (two different classes). Some used the other hyphenated calibers including the 45-110. Lordy.

My research disclosed a round which fit my bill. The 38-55. I picked up a nice 336 CB 26" barrel, put a tang sight on it with a globe front that had a single half post. Did a polish job, worked on the trigger and it is a very nice shooting rifle. 10 grs of Unique, a 245gr lead RNFP .380" bullet will do (with a scope) 1/2" at 50 yards. Only place I could shoot at the time. A sweet round that will do super up to about 600 yards with stronger loads.

Thats why the 6.5 is appealing. We shoot offhand and off sticks. The Swedish Mauser looks to be rather svelte and made for offhand shooting as well as off sticks. And I won't develop a flinch that will inhibit follow through.

I suppose the action and trigger can be smoothed out, lightened, and be made to be somewhat competitive?

Red Cent
July 31, 2012, 08:52 PM
Dentite, I want something different. I built a 6MM Remington with a Savage action and a Douglas barrel.

I built a 243 on an 03 action and a Douglas barrel. The 7MM Mag is an Argentine MKX Mauser with a Douglas barrel. Aand a few others. Used to live within a couple of miles from Douglas Barrels, Inc. and know Tim Gardner. (throwing around names :cool:)

Has to be a "military" rifle.

In the latter 70s I put together a 7 X 57 for friend. I would consider this round also.

I think I would rather soothe the 6.5 itch first. Then...............

meanmrmustard
July 31, 2012, 09:26 PM
I know it is not a 6.5 but a whole lot of people love their K31's. Very good quality and accuracy even with milsurp (I should say especially with milsurp).
I happen to be one of them. I second this suggestion.

rookorami
July 31, 2012, 10:28 PM
Red October wins the understatement award for this thread. First time I fired my Mosin carbine, my buddy was standing beside and behind me. I turned and looked at him after pulling the trigger and he rolled his eyes (after putting them back in his head). He explained that he felt the heat and concussion on his face before deciding that he wasn't interested in shooting it after-all.
I have shot both the carbine and the 91/30 and when you are back behind the rifle it seems a lot worse than when you are on the trigger. I didn't realize how it sounded till I let my buddy shoot it and it was louder when I wasn't on the trigger. Sure it kicks, but I think some make it out to be worse than it is.

Red Cent
July 31, 2012, 11:49 PM
What about an 1895 Spanish Mauser carbine? 7 x 57. I like the full stock look. Seems to run around $400.00. Action should be typical Mauser. Control feed? 5 round box mag.

Or the Swedish M94 carbine. 6.5X 55.

KDS
August 1, 2012, 12:11 AM
K31 would be my suggestion. I love mine.

Dentite
August 1, 2012, 01:06 AM
Dentite, I want something different. I built a 6MM Remington with a Savage action and a Douglas barrel.

I built a 243 on an 03 action and a Douglas barrel. The 7MM Mag is an Argentine MKX Mauser with a Douglas barrel. Aand a few others. Used to live within a couple of miles from Douglas Barrels, Inc. and know Tim Gardner. (throwing around names )

Has to be a "military" rifle.

In the latter 70s I put together a 7 X 57 for friend. I would consider this round also.

I think I would rather soothe the 6.5 itch first. Then...............


In that case I think you would enjoy an M96 Swedish Mauser. Do some research on what to look for, how to interpret the stock disk, etc. I have an 1899 Carl Gustafs that I really enjoy shooting. They are zeroed to 300 yards so if you are going to shoot at 100 yards there are taller front sights available. Good luck and if you get one post some pics!

303tom
August 1, 2012, 01:14 AM
How about a 7.5 French..............Like a MAS-36.

Red Cent
August 1, 2012, 02:14 PM
Interesting note on the Mas 36.
"Probably the most noticeable feature of the MAS-36 is the lack of any manual safety - rifle was supposed to be carried with empty magazine, and loaded only before the actual combat."

Can the rifle be fired with the bolt open a little or almost all the way? I would think they. at least, had some kind of device to prevent firing.

Interesting rifle. With what modern round would this compare? I cannot find the specs.

kBob
August 1, 2012, 02:40 PM
The 7.5 French is comparable to the .308 or 7.62 NATO. mil surplus Ammo is not easy to find ( if anyone thinks it is please PM me with the specifics.) and when you can find boxer ammo it is on the steep side.

The butt stock and pull length are a bit short for six footers.

The sights are not adjustable except for range. That is range not elevation. I do like that the rear sights are peep aperature on top of the rear reciever ring.

That said the only ones I have had experience with were fairly accurate with some ammo. I have found Syrian ammo that shot better than French and Syrain ammo that produced hang fires, no fires and shot gun like groups. And have had French ammo that had hangfires....one about four seconds long.

One the other hand I lucked out at found some French Military on stripper clips years ago that I came in second at a pre 1945 made rifle shoot using the CMP 100 yard course against about two dozen shooters....just lucky with that batch of ammo.

Between a Swede and a Frog I would pick the Swede....every time unless I was just going for weirdness.

The humorous thing was I had a guy tell me the marks on the rear of the bolt of an MAS36 were to indicate how to work the safety much like the safety on a Japanese type 99. I guess turning to that other mark would make the rifle safe.....it is how one removes the firing pin.

The Swedes are just super well made and nicely finished by comparisson. Do look around here , maybe search for "disc" as a few years back there was a considerable following for Swedes here and what the markings meant was well discussed.

The threading on the end of the barrel was to allow a blank firing device to be used that allowed the use of wooden bulleted blanks without killing other trainees and there are after market thread protectors out there. The sights on the Swede are drift adjustable for windage up front and there are atleast three types of tangent rear sight for them. Biggest complaint is that the front post is a fine pointed chisel and the rear notch is a fine v shape even more so than most 98 Mausers.

Of the non US rifles meantioned so far on this thread I would take the Swedes hands down if cost were not an issue.

-k Bob

303tom
August 1, 2012, 02:56 PM
I picked up 200 rds. of 7.5x54 a couple of weeks ago at Midway for $120.00 + tax...........

kBob
August 1, 2012, 04:29 PM
303tom,

Thanks, have you shot any yet and is it French or Syrian or modern Berdan?

-kBob

303tom
August 1, 2012, 04:45 PM
303tom,

Thanks, have you shot any yet and is it French or Syrian or modern Berdan?

-kBob
It`s Serb, factory Prvi Partizan................

Red Cent
August 1, 2012, 04:48 PM
The 7.5 X 55 GP 11 is a fairly hot cartidge. It throws a 130gr fmj at 3000 fps. My 140gr 7MM Mag loads are 140 gr BTHP are around 3100fps. I would not think I would want to shoot a match with this rifle. The continued recoil of such a round would get tiring, it seems to me.

I would like a carbine, but with the imagined recoil of such a light rifle, one would develop a heck of a flinch. I'm afraid it does not fit my bill.

Am I wrong?

Red Cent
August 1, 2012, 05:17 PM
This is interesting. I have a feeling this will cost a bundle.

8MM Remingtongevaer

Red October
August 1, 2012, 06:45 PM
I like the Schmidt-Rubin's a lot, but they aren't cheap. They do shoot great, and GP11 is pretty comparable to .308. As for Mosin performance, that can vary a lot. Some guys on here are getting great results. Personally, I get better results from my Swiss or my Krags.
BTW, I laughed out loud on the 'understatement award' comment.
I was hesitant to use a phrase like "kicks like a mule" since recoil is highly subjective and often debated.

meanmrmustard
August 1, 2012, 11:38 PM
The 7.5 X 55 GP 11 is a fairly hot cartidge. It throws a 130gr fmj at 3000 fps. My 140gr 7MM Mag loads are 140 gr BTHP are around 3100fps. I would not think I would want to shoot a match with this rifle. The continued recoil of such a round would get tiring, it seems to me.

I would like a carbine, but with the imagined recoil of such a light rifle, one would develop a heck of a flinch. I'm afraid it does not fit my bill.

Am I wrong?
Yes. The recoil, a subjective character, is a push rather that a battering slam. Very little muzzle rise, and the K31 is by no means light. There are heavier milsurps, but you know you're carrying it. I'd liken the experience to a mild .308 round out of a sporter rifle. Not bad, but stiff enough to let you know it's there.

I'm 5'10" 185lbs, and I'm good for 40 rounds before I get sore.

PzGren
August 2, 2012, 01:25 AM
Red Cent,

if you want to use the rifle for competition and reload for it, the Swedish M96, M96/38, and M38 in 6.5x55 are a good choice. The 6.5x55 is a very soft cartridge with enormous accuracy potential.

If you decide on a Mosin Nagant, I can recommend a Finnish M39. They are very accurate and have a thicker barrel.

The Swiss K31 and K11 are very high quality and prices are rising as people realize this. They are accurate and well suited for competition.

wjt
August 5, 2012, 12:57 PM
If you're considering a Swedish 6.5x55 check out a CG 63. It's a m-96 barreled action in a target stock with target sights.

towboat_er
August 5, 2012, 01:11 PM
All said, ya still should try a Mosin Nagant. For $100, they cant be beat.

meanmrmustard
August 5, 2012, 01:14 PM
All said, ya still should try a Mosin Nagant. For $100, they cant be beat.
What're Finns going for marginally?

solman
August 5, 2012, 07:17 PM
Red Cent, the Swedish Mauser is the one that gets my vote. It's the 6.5 you want and they are not too expensive if you look around awhile. It doesn't kick like a mule and Its a good deer round should you choose to hunt with it. The Mosin nagant is cheap and so is the ammo but too me they kick pretty hard, no fun at all.

barnbwt
August 6, 2012, 01:58 AM
Dentite, I want something different

Well, it doesn't get more different than the K31!
A straight-pull bolt action as accurate as many K98s (or $3K Blasers, for that matter) for ~300$. The 7.5 Swiss round it shoots is ballistically between/identical .308Win and 30/06 M2. The guns are all (and I mean nearly all) in perfect mechanical condition, with crisp bores, and smooth actions. You won't find a tool mark anywhere on the things. No rust, either, as the Swiss GP11 round was non-corrosive premo surplus, and the Swiss cared for their rifles meticulously.

Reloading will be similar (again) to .308/30-06, so once you get some dies you're all set. I've heard this round is a tad pickier about needing to be full-length sized, since the straight-pull bolt cam isn't as torquey as a typical bolt action. Ammo is available, and priced about the same as premium .308 where I've found it. GP11 surplus is the best surplus ammo ever made (seriously) but is increasingly rare and expensive (and Berdan primed), making reloading more attractive.

The butts are likely to be a bit torn up, but nearly all these guns have immaculate metal. Beneath the butt plate there is likely a tag with the issued soldier's name and info on it. Real, tangible history you can't get from other "battlefield" rifles of the era. Scoping is easily done with a high quality, non-marring clamp on mount. Check out SwissRifles.com for more info than you could ever possibly want. You can't ask for much more in a shooter.

TCB

Ignition Override
August 6, 2012, 02:18 AM
Red Cent:
You probably realize that the recoil of an Enfield #4/Mk.1 does not even compare with a Yugo 8mm Mauser. And my Mauser's recoil is not as sharp as a 12 gauge shotgun.

Unless you can shoot well with any open sight rifle, the Enfields #4s/#5s are all aperture, and if a given #4 has the dual flip sight, the adjustable ladder sight two years ago cost about $25 or so. One screw allows you to change it.

Red Cent
August 6, 2012, 02:55 PM
Thanks guys. I continue to research the rifles mentioned and more. Some very interesting history.
The search for a rifle chambered in the 6.5 is about inherent accuracy. 'Course you need a good barrel to take advantage of the bullet. I am not looking to reload for 1000 yards nor will I hunt with the rifle. The rifle will be used for competition and will not be reloaded hot.
Observation: Reading over the posts and reading another thread on Rifle Country, it seems that trends develop about certain rifles. The Enfield seems to be the "cycling" king with "satisfactory combat accuarcy". Perceived recoil of the Mosin Nagant is very subjective. Seems as if cost is the deciding factor in a lot of cases.
The accuracy winner seems to be the K31. While I am still leaning toward a 6.5x55, the K31 may have influence. As much as I like the 03, I do not want a 30-06. The K31, which, apparently, duplicates a 308 could be handloaded to fit my liking without sacrificing accuracy.
The Swedish Mauser 96 is also in the running.

"The m/96 is a very accurate service rifle. This was proven during the early years of the 20th Century, when the various powers held international service rifle matches. The host country provided the rifles and ammunition used in these matches to all of the teams so that all competitors used the host nations service rifle. In the entire history of this series of matches, the best scores across the board were not shot with the U.S. M-1903 Springfield, the British Lee-Enfield, or the vaunted German Model 98 Mauser, but with the Swedish m/96 and the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin rifles. These are the most accurate of the classic bolt action military rifles. No collection of military Mausers should be without a Swedish Model 1896."
http://www.chuckhawks.com/swedish_mauser.htm

Red Cent
August 6, 2012, 02:58 PM
For those of you who have tried the triggers of the aforementioned rifles, which one of them exhibited the best trigger "out of the box"?

303tom
August 6, 2012, 04:01 PM
For those of you who have tried the triggers of the aforementioned rifles, which one of them exhibited the best trigger "out of the box"?
Enfield..............

meanmrmustard
August 6, 2012, 07:00 PM
For those of you who have tried the triggers of the aforementioned rifles, which one of them exhibited the best trigger "out of the box"?
K31

barnbwt
August 6, 2012, 08:41 PM
I say K31 as well. Here's a link to a thread where some guy is trying to increase his trigger pull weight. It's mostly useful since they discuss the triggger operation and there is a very nice diagram of the mechanism. My K31's have very nice 2 stage triggers, with consitent take-up on the first stage, and a very abrupt break at the second that I have a hard time anticipating (unlike my Rem 700 SPS stock trigger).

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?192883-K31-trigger-woes

From the site:
The trigger spring gives it a pull of 700 grams till the considerable pull of 2 kg needed for the final release of the sear.


TCB

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