[scaatylobo]

A little bird whispered in my ear .

That bird was told from a "source" inside the FBI that the new round will be the 9MM in expanding bullet form.

I see that as a good thing with all the new and very real world 9MM rounds made today.

If this is so,how many of you will follow that band wagon ?.

I am already leaning in that direction,higher capacity and easier to control.

I EDC a .40 S&W as well as a .45 acp .

But own 4 9MM's.

Any who would consider changing IF this comes down the pike ?.

[19-3Ben]

Fortunately, I don't have guns issued to me and I get to carry what I want to carry. If FBI switches to 9mm, that doens't change what I know about ballistics (and weighing the costs/benefits of various calibers) and wouldn't really factor into my consideration much. Especially because, I have different needs than they do.

I think the better question is, OP, why would you feel the need to switch your carry equipment to match the FBI?

Edit to add:
And by the way, I already do carry a 9mm, while the FBI carries a .40. So, they obviously did not influence my current carry choice.

[lloveless]

Ha ha ha . I don't think so. Surely the FBI couldn't be so stupid, to not look at their own statistics. No I won't change to match the FBI. I don't now and if they change to a 9mm I'll keep carrying what I've carried for 10+ years.
ll

[2wheels]

As far as I'm concerned, if this is true the FBI is jumping on MY bandwagon :)

I already dumped my only .40S&W carry gun to switch to a 9mm.

I could care less what (insert agency/military unit here) carries. I might pay attention and try to learn from their reasoning, but I won't blindly follow them.

[bikerdoc]

Dont really care about them

At 63, I carry, 45, 357, and 9. Made my own decisions based on my needs.

[X-Rap]

The more things change the more they stay the same. I must confess that I have or had dam near every caliber available except the GAP (they didn't get me on that one:rolleyes:).
I must confess to carrying the 9 as my favorite, to me it is the best combination of size, capacity and capability when coupled with good bullets.

[LeonCarr]

With today's advanced JHP ammunition, there is very little real world difference between the 9, 40, and 45.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Captains1911]

If I didn't have so much money tied into ammo and mags for my G23, I would dump .40 myself. Not that I have trouble shooting the .40, I don't, I'd just prefer to consolidate my calibers by dumping ones that don't really provide an edge.

[One_Jackal]

I prefer magnum calibers for self defense. The FBI faces a lot of different situations than I do. For self defense the chances I will need to shoot further than 20 feet are about .05%. Due to the fact things will be close and personal I prefer the stopping power of the 357/44mag. Due to the versatility of the 9mm it will end up being my SHTF weapon whether I prefer it or not.

[Old Fuff]

Now if they were to go back to the .38 Special +P / 158 grain / lead semi-wadcutter / hollow point.... :evil:

Ultimately it boils down to bullet placement more so then particular cartridges, caliber and bullet construction.

[Gryffydd]

I don't think so. Surely the FBI couldn't be so stupid, to not look at their own statistics.
Which statistics would that be, exactly?

[mavracer]

It's a long walk around the ol' barn. The FBI was the reason behind jumping off the 9mm bandwagon, now they're getting back on. lol

[Checkman]

Going back to the 9mm. Interesting. The 9mm hollow-point has come a very long way since Miami in 1986. I've been carrying the 9mm for years myself. Guess the F.B.I. is chaning because of me.

[jimbo555]

I doubt if it's true. With budget cuts coming i don't think they would spend their money on a caliber switch.

[76shuvlinoff]

My 1911 is just heavy and relegated to bedside duty these days. I think my XD40sc is a block, it carries lighter than the 1911 but it's still a block. My .380 LCP carries great shoots great and I love the thing but mention on a gun board you carry a puny .380 full of FMJs...... you see this :banghead:

I firmly believe my next bottom feeder will be slimmest single stack 9 I can find ... short of a Rohrbaugh $$$... and I will fill it with JHPs

[Skribs]

I don't think so. Surely the FBI couldn't be so stupid, to not look at their own statistics.

Even though many JHP 9mm rounds now meet the FBI requirements that were the reason they went with the .40 in the first place.

Due to the fact things will be close and personal I prefer the stopping power of the 357/44mag.

Stopping power? No such thing. .357 magnum will do the same thing the 9mm will do, create a 9mm crush cavity. Just might bruise a bit more.

OP: Do you have a source you can link, or this just hearsay? Either way, I'm planning on switching from .40 to 9, and have been since before I heard the rumor that the FBI will.

[R.W.Dale]

This thread true or not seems to be part of a larger phenomena where 40s&w popularity seems to be waining quite dramatically.


Is 40 destined to be the next 38 super?

[scaatylobo]

I EDC a G-23 .40 S&W and 2 Kimbers in .45 ACP as primary's.The 9MM's are generally BUG's for me.

But as I age I see that my ability to shoot REALLY accurately might benefit from a change to the 9MM.

It is also possible that if the FBI changes,then bullet science will be advanced even further for the stopping power of the 9MM,and that could be another reason for me to change.

I TOTALLY agree that placement is THE way to go.

So a round that is easier to shoot well might be a good reason to go there.

I still own and shoot 5 .357 magnums,but that is too much gun with overpenetration in a 'friendly' enviroment for me.

Since I shoot the G-19 well and it fits all my leather/holsters for the G-23 ,it would be easy to switch.

Since you did ask :).

btw,sorry cant name source as it was told to me as a INSIDE information only thing.

[Loic]

I carry my CZ in 9mm all the time, no problems there. And 18+1 bullet is nice to have.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

[jmorris]

I'll be all over it once the Government will let me own a post '86 MP5.

Wonder if politics plays into it. A Republican in the white house when they went for 10mm and a Dem steers toward 9mm.

Suprized they are not going to bean bags like they want our border fellows to do.

[verdun59]

With 5 different 9mm pistols it agrees with me just fine. A lot of different choices out there in 9mm, some of them quite impressive.

[Claude Clay]

i carry based upon my perception of what may happen where i am intending to go, accept that bad people are free to travel and we may cross paths. the weather, the seasons and how im dressed. than i choose two ( more often than not) finish getting dressed and if all goes as planned, i will not touch the guns again till i get undressed.

bikerdoc, i'll bow to your wisdom of age--you got me by 2 years. though my 357 is a 3" j-frame usually loaded with ny-clads (+P SWC's).

carry the same bullet as my state or local police to make my defense ( if ever needed) go easier. but i'll chose my caliber.

[Godsgunman]

I guess the FBI is finally following my advice :p. I consolidated everything to 9mm awhile ago. Cheaper, readily available, and when it comes to todays handgun rounds they all pretty much do the same thing. 9s the closest thing to a universal handgun round so why not. Plus maybe if the rumor is true it'll help keep the price low also.

[JERRY]

the 9mm ammo the FBI used in the Miami shootout did just what it was suppose to do. the expectations of that particular round to do something else was a direct misapplication of it.

tactics not caliber is to blame for that. the reason they went to the .40cal is because after they misapplied a certain 9mm round, they thought they had to get a different caliber instead of using different ammo.

they went with the 10mm and found that they just couldnt handle it, but used the "too powerfull" reason as to why they asked for a down loaded version.

after the creation of reduced power 10mm loads came out somebody got smart and realized you dont need that long of a cartridge for that little of power. this is when the .40cal was born.

[mcdonl]

Going back to the 9mm. Interesting. The 9mm hollow-point has come a very long way since Miami in 1986. I've been carrying the 9mm for years myself. Guess the F.B.I. is chaning because of me.

I guess that is what they call full circle.

I carry .40, 9mm or .45 it all depends on my mood. But, Miami 1986 sure highlites some truth about balistic capabilities doesnt it?

[FMF Doc]

Ha ha ha . I don't think so. Surely the FBI couldn't be so stupid, to not look at their own statistics. No I won't change to match the FBI. I don't now and if they change to a 9mm I'll keep carrying what I've carried for 10+ years.
ll
Bullet technology has come a long way since Miami, and the 9mm has benefitted from all of the advnacement. Is it a .45ACP...no, but todays 9mm JHPs are much better than they were when the 9mm controversies from the FBI got going. And while it might not make as big of a hole as a .45, it is easier to contol (and let's face it, the FBI is full of lawyers and CPAs parading around like cops, they are not gun guys or shooters) and they get more rounds in the same space. I carry 9mm, and always have in an auto. I trust my life to it, I don't see why the FBI shouldn't.

[Shawn Dodson]

the 9mm ammo the FBI used in the Miami shootout did just what it was suppose to do. the expectations of that particular round to do something else was a direct misapplication of it.

The mid-1980's Silvertip, with the aluminum jacket, was one of the first 9mm JHP bullets that expanded fairly reliably. It penetrated about 8-inches, which was widely considered adequate at the time. Nobody really gave much thought about the possibility of having to shoot through an arm, which is what happened when FBI agent Jerry Dove shot Michael Platt at the very beginning of the gunfight. Platt was crawling out the passenger side window of a stolen Monte Carlo when Dove made this hit. Dove's bullet penetrated about 3-inches of biceps muscle in Platt's upper arm before it exited and penerated his chest. The bullet stopped about an inch short of the heart. Indeed the Silvertip's penetration performance was exactly as expected, about 8-inches, but it wasn't enough. Had the bullet passed through Platt's heart it would have substantially impaired its ability to pump blood to his brain and it's unlikely he would have gotten onto his feet after crawling out the Monte Carlo. The gunfight would have been over.

But that's not what happened, the bullet stopped short of Platt's heart and he was able to continue to act with volition for several minutes afterward, despite the fact that Dove's bullet had produced what would have ultimately been an unsurvivable wound. Platt was able to get to his feet and keep fighting. He went on to wound Agents McNeill, Mireles, and Hanlon and kill Agents Grogan and Dove.

The tactic at the time was to "swarm" suspects and overwhelm/overpower them with manpower/firepower. It worked most of the time - with suspects voluntarily surrendering once they realized the futility of the situation. This wasn't the case with Platt and William Matix. They contested with deadly determination the FBI's effort to apprehend them. Unfortunately the agents who were armed with MP5 9mm SMGs, who were also assigned to the rolling stakeout, didn't arrive on scene until after the gunfight was over.

Afterward the FBI quietly changed its tactics. It also began investigating the factors required for a handgun bullet to reliably produce a rapidly incapaciting wound. The result is the premium JHP handgun ammunition that's available to all of us today.

[Detritus]

Is 40 destined to be the next 38 super?

Maybe but personally, and i'm likely a minority on this, I kinda of doubt it.

.38 super survives because of it's use in competition, if 40s&w is dropped by the feds it may catch a lingering toehold in that arena but i'm just not convinced of that. If the LE and related (folk who buy one b/c "angency X uses this") sales of guns in the round begin to dry up it's use in USPSA, and certainly IDPA will wane as well. I really don't think that the 40S&W is going to hang around much after/if it loses its "Official cool" standing.

Let's face it the .40 wouldn't have the following it has now (wouldn't exist really) without FBI involvement. If the Feds drop it, especially if they drop it in favor of returning to the 9mm with modern HP ammo, there will be a cascade effect of LE agencies that currently use the .40 following the FBI's lead and dropping back to the 9mm for reasons of training, controllability, and in any agency that standardizes and issues ammo to all members Budget.

[mljdeckard]

With modern bullets, I gave up on the .40 a while ago.

[buck460XVR]

A little bird whispered in my ear .

That bird was told from a "source" inside the FBI that the new round will be the 9MM in expanding bullet form.



Any who would consider changing IF this comes down the pike ?.


I could care less what the FBI carries. I carry what I have confidence in. I know what my weapons are capable of and I know what I'm capable of, with those same weapons. Ain't no reason to change.

[skoro]

If this is so,how many of you will follow that band wagon ?.


I'm glad to see the FBI adopt the caliber I've been carrying all along. I have only two centerfire auto pistol calibers: 9mm and 45acp. Been that way for more than 30 years.

[F-111 John]

How many local and state police departments use the .40? Even if the FBI drops the .40, it ain't going anywhere for a very long time.

[Texan Scott]

A little bird whispered in my ear . That bird was told from a "source" inside the FBI

Interesting. Do birds speak to you, too? I thought I was the only one... the cattlebirds around here have been saying "Germany, Germany, Germany!" for years. I still have no clue what they're talking about. My general impression is that little birds tend not to be very reliable, or give these things a lot of thought.
On the other hand, any time The Sun or News of the World quotes a "source close to the palace", I sit right up and pay attention...
I'll stick to .38+p, just because, even if the FBI sees it, I don't see enough difference to justify the expense of replacing every handgun I own... one wonders where THEY get the money....

[Shmackey]

I do whatever the FBI does.

Sometimes I walk up to active crime scenes, and I tell the cop in charge "This is my case now." Then I take off my sunglasses and survey the area with a knowing frown.

[Carl Levitian]

Heck, I never abandoned the .38 special. But I'm and old fart, and hate to change anything. Especially when I'm all set up for reloading and have a collection of police issued model 10's from PD's all over he place. :D

[jmr40]

Going away from the 9mm was a knee jerk reaction in the first place. While 9mm ammo today is better than ever, so is 45 and everything else. If you go back and compare actual testing the 9mm has ALWAYS performed as good or better than anything else, including 45 when comparable ammo was used. The best 9mm loads in 1986 were just as effective as the best 45 and 357 loads in 1986. If you compare 9mm military ball ammo to 45 military ball ammo you will not find a single test showing one is any better than the other.

[Deaf Smith]

The FBI could go to 2.7mm Kolibri for all I care.

I've got them in most of the popular rounds and really who cares if they go to a 15 shot 9mm or 13 shot .40 or whatever.

Deaf

[CarlJ]

EDC is 642 38+P, range gun/combat pistol a PPQ9. Sold my RIA 45. Plan to get another 45, I just like that caliber.:)

[The Man With No Name]

1. What the FBI does has no effect on me since they don't issue me guns nor do they pay for any of mine.
2. Personally I still find the 9mm lacking. The round I have alot of experience with is the Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 grain JHP +P+. Is their a load that will dramatically outperform this in 9mm? It's not like I have a choice since it is my department issued duty load but I am curious if I am wrong in thinking the 9mm is still a round that only makes sense if it is the most round you can handle.
3. With that said I feel the round that I recommend is the most powerful round a person can handle accurately. Sure that little .380 is easy kicking but if you knew today with 100% certainty that you were going to be involved in a life or death situation that required you to defend yourself using lethal force would you carry that .380 or would you carry a 9mm, .40, or .45 that day?
4. Arguments for increased ammo capacity make no sense to me. Carry reloads if you need more than 5.
5. Arguments for ammo costs make a bit more sense. I can agree that if one allows you to afford more ammo and thus become a better shooter then that should factor into the equation but at the same time I feel 99% of the people trying to become better shooters would benefit more from lots of dry fire practice which is essentially free (other than the cost of snap caps if you need them).
6. Yes sometimes I compromise. I have a Ruger LCR now and at times when I'm just in the yard feeding the birds, getting the mail, and other such things at home I often just stick it in my pocket. When I leave the house I am alternating now between a Ruger New Vaquero in .45acp or an Uberti Cattleman in .45 Long Colt. My duty weapon is a Glock 17 and between it and my two more powerful single action revolvers the Glock is in last place if I was going to go somewhere and really though I might be in a situation where I had to shoot at another human to defend myself or others. Sure a 9mm can get the job done and nothing will make up for poor shot placement. I find my single actions more accurate and this is from someone that has been using Glocks since they were originally released in this country and is consistently number 1 or 2 in annual qualification.

[wow6599]

But, Miami 1986 sure highlites some truth about balistic capabilities doesnt it?

Yep......1986 :rolleyes:

[jfrey]

Ha Ha, I beat 'em to it. I already carry a 9mm, or a.380, or a .45 depending on my mood. We're paying for their ammo so since the 9mm is cheaper to shoot, we taxpayers must be getting a bargain.......Right!

[scaatylobo]

I guess you have been in many shoot outs and dont miss or place a bad shot on a perp.

that being the case,your reason to carry a gun that is too slow to reload under combat makes sense to me.

If that is not the case,I have faced multiple targets and the click that results from running out of ammo is one that creates a HUGE pucker factor.

I prefer to have the option for many followup shots and a fast reload [ spare magazines ].

To each their own,I guess I dont get as preachy as you and I dont believe my way is the only way.

I still carry a BUG as I dont want my life to depend on one simple tool that could fail at THE worst time.

That BUG might be a 5 shot,but even that has a reload in the event I live that long.

[The Man With No Name]

I guess you have been in many shoot outs and dont miss or place a bad shot on a perp.

that being the case,your reason to carry a gun that is too slow to reload under combat makes sense to me.

If that is not the case,I have faced multiple targets and the click that results from running out of ammo is one that creates a HUGE pucker factor.

I prefer to have the option for many followup shots and a fast reload [ spare magazines ].

To each their own,I guess I dont get as preachy as you and I dont believe my way is the only way.

I still carry a BUG as I dont want my life to depend on one simple tool that could fail at THE worst time.

That BUG might be a 5 shot,but even that has a reload in the event I live that long.
5 rounds is what I figure I need to deal with any given situation. I have no problem placing shots. Keep in mind I'm talking about off duty carry. I don't walk around off duty anticipating a gun fight. I just want a tool handy to defend me while I try to make it back to the car if needed. On duty I carry a Glock, 2 spare mags on my duty belt, and my BUG's are a rifle and shotgun in the trunk. I dont' feel my way is the only way but I also know that a single action is only slow to reload if you don't know how or have never practiced reloading. What tools I have meet my needs. My needs may not be yours. I doubt the average citizen is ever going to be in a running gun battle with multiple assailants either though. If life is that bad for them then they really need to just keep rifles and shotguns nearby and once again just enough gun on the hip to get them to the REAL guns.

I'm not an expert but I do know what I see and .45 Long Colt penetrates better than +P+ 9mm when bones are struck, when barriers are present, and no I don't feel to the point that overpenetration is an issue.

[LawScholar]

That's totally fine if the FBI goes 9mm.

However, to those folks predicting the .40 is just going to dry up - keep dreamin', it's here to stay. It's very very popular, at least in my neck of the woods.

[leadcounsel]

I also don't particularly care what the FBI chooses.

I also do not see the .40 'drying up.' It's IMO the 'best' all around handgun caliber for self defense. Energy, expansion, capacity, penetration, would cavity, speed, cost... it's the best compromise of all of the handgun rounds. That said, I would feel comfortable with a 9x19 or a .45... just not MY preference. But the .40 is here to stay. It has a huge following and isn't a niche caliber. Heck I hope the FBI dumps their unwanted .40 ammo on the market for cheap!

Having been in Gov't work, there are A LOT of considerations about guns/ammo, etc that have less bearing on performance than you'd think. For instance, there are much better guns and calibers and even ammunition than what we use in the Army, but we still use them... politics, money, training, size of the users, etc.

I know nothing about the change details for the FBI, but I would be shocked if it didn't have to do with budgets and smaller agents (females, more feminine males, etc.). Let's not forget that FBI agents are typically accountants, linguists, etc. They aren't typically tactical Joes fresh out of 11B school... This probably has to do with budgets, maybe a sweet HUGE deal (billions of bullets) on 9x19 contract, with free guns, who knows...

Finally, a 9x19 for a field agent with a parnter is adequate. They have immediate backup, longguns in the car, and if they were purposefully going into a dangerous situation, they'd certainly have heavier firepower.

The decision making of an individual home defender or CCW'er - with no backup and possibly no longgun, is an entirely different evaluation.

[Gryffydd]

I also know that a single action is only slow to reload if you don't know how or have never practiced reloading.
:scrutiny:
A single action revolver?
I don't care how much you practice it will never ever be anything but slow compared to an auto. Especially if you take that same practice and apply it to reloading an auto. That's not to mention that it's a much more delicate process that requires more fine motor control.

[Detritus]

to those folks predicting the .40 is just going to dry up - keep dreamin', it's here to stay. It's very very popular, at least in my neck of the woods.

you may be right, tell me this though. Realisticly and honestly how much of the 40's popularity is because of it's prevelence and use in Law Enforecement?


Now, in the US there is a disporportionate amount of weight given by local and state agencies to what is being issued/used by the FBI with regard to firearms/ammo decisions. And I'm pretty sure that if the FBI reverts back to the 9mm, many is the agency that will also revert at the earliest convenience, sheerly on the basis of perceived budget issues, much less the, again likely perceived only, ease of training issue.

without LE sales the number of new guns produced in .40S&W will drop off and likely will drop off sharply, as the likes of Glock and SIG streamline to make even more 9's.

I never said the death would be immediate or complete. But without FBI issue of the 40 to fuel the idea that 9mm is somehow inadequate, issue to/use by LE of the .40 will decline. Then as that use declines and the gun makers switch to 9mm (or whatever) to fulfill the LE market overall "civilian" interest in the round will decline as well.

Now to cover why i said what i said in my first post here. I was answering to the idea that 40s&w would be the next 38super. I don't beleive that the .40S&W will do what the 38super has done. I.e. survive 80 years past it's perceived obsolescence in Law Enforecement mainly on it's utility in a single sport. without IPSC 38Super would be a footnote, heck outside of IPSC and "1911 People" how well known is the Super?

Now all that said, do i think that .40 will decline greatly if and when the Feds drop it, Yes
do i think it will disapear? No. and i think that its decline will occur over a moderately extended time, say 15-20 years. In otherwords I think that in time the .40 will start to go the way of the 10mm Auto.

[Sheepdog1968]

The money spend on switching over would be better spent IMO on more firearms training with the current weapons.

[GrayGore]

I don't disagree that better 9mm rounds are available now than in the past. But if .40 was better than 9mm back then, why is 9mm better now, when the improvements to 9mm are also completely available for .40? Wouldn't they improve in parallel, so that .40 retains an edge?

[Okiegunner]

I am kinda old, so what I say may be a bit biased.

Initially we had to transition from wheelguns to automatics. Let me tell you..."Good Lord"...much resistance. Lots of old fossils just refused.

After many years of carry, the 9mm seemed like the pistol round that should be carried.

Fast forward: I think that I probably have one of the first police issue carry Poly Sigs. It is a Sig 2340. In my opinion, great pistol. Bang, bang, bang. Guys know what I mean? You can absolutely depend on it!

However, the .40 snap is the .40 snap. I am a pretty big guy. I feel like I can handle snap, push-back, and recoil fairly well.

Sorry to those I might offend...I much prefer the 9mm. I like a nice Beretta 92 platform with 20 round Mec-Gar magazines.

I have never had this combo fail for me. Cleaned and lubed (OK, 92 likes to be a bit wet), anyhow, whatever. I realize that there are more modern designs. Some, if not most might work better for you younger guys.

Just kinda thought, might share my thoughts

[tipoc]

From R.W. Dale;

This thread true or not seems to be part of a larger phenomena where 40s&w popularity seems to be waining quite dramatically.

Why do you say this? At this time it is the most widely used round by law enforcement in the U.S. and very widely used by the general population. So what leads you to believe the popularity of the 40S&W is waning?

Is 40 destined to be the next 38 super?

What do you mean by this?

tipoc

[R.W.Dale]

I see used 40's listed for sale in various venues to languish for weeks when the same pistol in 9mm fies off in hours for more money

I see thread after thread about people choosing 9 over 40 or moving from 40 to 9

Its just kind of a general observation that I see hints at often enough to raise an eyebrow.


38 super/acp was once very much more popular than it is today where its primarily a niche round.

[R.W.Dale]

I don't disagree that better 9mm rounds are available now than in the past. But if .40 was better than 9mm back then, why is 9mm better now, when the improvements to 9mm are also completely available for .40? Wouldn't they improve in parallel, so that .40 retains an edge?

Not really

There's only one degree of dead or stopped. If 9mm is getting bad guys to that point what is 40 gonna do different

[mdmorgan]

.40 S&W is pointless, I have been preaching 9mm for years. You don't gain enough with .40 to make up for what it costs you.

[9mmfan]

My "town gun" is already a Glock in the flavor of 9. Or a .38 in my pocket. Once had both for about 20 minutes. Out in the country on private land, I feel somewhat obligated to carry a single action in .45 colt, though I have packed a similar piece in .357 a couple times. I don't see the FBI issuing Cimarrons or Ubertis, so makes no difference to me one way or the other. I digress. I will admit that I never did develop a love for .40, though.

[NG VI]

Miami 1986 sure highlites some truth about balistic capabilities doesnt it?

Well in 1986 the only way to get a 9mm or .45 bullet to regularly expand was to make it light, fragile, fast, and by extension, a poor penetrator.

These days ammunition companies understand that making a good JHP bullet is about more than just making a cup and core bullet with a little cavity in the end of it. Bullets don't need to be moving 1200 feet per second to expand well and consistently, they can expand better than the bullets available in the 1980s while still reaching 12-14 inches of penetration consistently.

The 1986 lesson was that 1986 bullet design was woefully inadequate.


I don't disagree that better 9mm rounds are available now than in the past. But if .40 was better than 9mm back then, why is 9mm better now, when the improvements to 9mm are also completely available for .40? Wouldn't they improve in parallel, so that .40 retains an edge?


GrayGore, .40 didn't exist until I believe 1990. Also, like jmr40 said in post #36, none of the other service calibers ever really had an objective benefit over the 9mm to begin with.

And since all of the service calibers show basically identical performance to one another when using similar bullets, and our bullets have gotten about as good as they're going to get, the very real advantages of the 9mm like lighter recoil and greater capacity in the same size magazine make it stand out as a service or defense caliber.

The important thing is that the ammunition improvements don't really increase the differences between calibers, it shrinks them for the most part.

Though the .40 does stand out because it is probably the easiest caliber to develop bullets for that expand well and penetrate well. Except for the heavier recoil it's an outstanding pistol caliber.

To everyone who thinks it would just vanish or guns would stop being made for it because the FBI goes back to 9mm, keep on toking brothers. 9mm didn't go anywhere when they ditched it, .38 Special didn't go anywhere when they (and just about every police officer in the U.S.) ditched it, .45 didn't go anywhere when it started to lose ground to 9mm and then .40, and the .40 is certainly not going anywhere no matter what federal agency does what with it.

It's not popular because the FBI liked it. It's popular because it gives caliber junkies and capacity freaks something they can agree on, it's an excellent pistol cartridge, and it works for what a pistol caliber can be expected to do in a pretty size efficient package.

[460Kodiak]

Dont really care about them

At 63, I carry, 45, 357, and 9. Made my own decisions based on my needs.

+1 to this. I don't relly understand why someone would change what they use because the FBI has. If I feel I need to carry a .454 Casull, then that's what I carry. I don't check if the FBI likes it.

It's a buerocracy, and I'm sure plenty of FBI agents will be mad about the switch. If handgun calibers have taught me anything it's that everyone likes, and is proficient with different calibers. You'l never make everyone happy if you "issue" guns or calibers. If it was a perfect world, agents would be able to buy the make and caliber that they trust.

[scaatylobo]

I am no longer "on duty" as I am retired.

I still carry a BUG and like to believe that I am prepared any given day [ I have no crystal ball ] to handle a Mumbai attack or an active shooter in mall,supermarket,school,movie theater etc.

If I could actually know that will never happen.or if I KNEW when it was about to happen [ I would stay home ] then if there I would be properly armed.

But I see too many incidents of good/innocent people being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Coffee shops are an example,there is too much of a chance I could be there and would not be alone.

Defending my loved ones means not backing down [ yes,even if that made good sense ].

I carry the tools that I see as the best for the worst case scenario.

I prefer to go unarmed as its more comfortable and I can dress lightly.

BUT refusing to ever be a victim,I do what I see as reasonable and required.

I also happen to shoot SASS/cowboy action and as such I am very familiar with the Colt SAA and its copies [ own a few ].

And I would not feel comfortable in a theater attack or worse - Mumbai multiple attacker scenario.Armed only with a SAA variant .

I have carried my SAA guns,with a BUG such as a Glock 23 etc.

[jim243]

Surely the FBI couldn't be so stupid

Not really a stupid choice. Like all government agencies the budget cuts are real and needed. Do you cut manpower or cut cost of ammo. How many times do most agents need to shoot it out with bad guys? 5 % of the time. Can you arm swat and entry teams with 40's and 45's and issure 9mm to those that work in the general offices collecting data, sure.

Maybe we should issure full auto M-4's to each and every agent (LOL,Not).

It's our money they are spending friends, let's not go crazy and increase our taxes.

Jim

It's the Federal Bureau of INVESTIGATION (FBI) not the national police force, that's the US Marshals.

[beatledog7]

I usually carry a .38SPL, but I own and could carry .357MAG, 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP. I practice with them all, and they all are capable of doing what I need them to do.

When ammo and component shortages hit, or the worst case scenario actually happens, I'll be able to shoot when those who have dropped or have never adopted cartridges they found less useful or less to their liking are struggling to find or build ammo.

[Certaindeaf]

That old (first generation?) 9mm Silvertip was great (though I preferred the old Remington 115) even though it "failed" back in Florida.. there were a LOT of failures in that little caper.
I think if this change occurs, it won't be because of a kneejerk reaction but simple observance of actual performance and logistics/availability/commonality of certain arms.
Everything is made in 9mm, pretty much.

[Texan Scott]

Shouldn't they be fighting their way back to a rifle anyway? :p

[Certaindeaf]

^
It was a very sad/embarrassing day for the FBI. Throughout their history, protocol was to truly overwhelm the situation with trained men and firepower. They got their youknowwhats handed to them through just a bad chain of events, luck, ineptitude, overconfidence, etc. It's been a long while since I've seen that approved re-enactment but hey, they sure shoulda/coulda done better.

[threefeathers]

Only hits count. 9mm 127 grain +P+ will do the job.

[tipoc]

Just a reminder...no one has presented a shred of evidence that the FBI is considering a change.

Since 1997 when the 40 S&W was adopted, the FBI also allowed for agents to continue to use the 9mm and the 45acp in personal carry weapons in Glock platforms.

tipoc

[LawScholar]

Only hits count. 9mm 127 grain +P+ will do the job.

If you're shooting +p+ you may as well shoot a .40 - in my subjective experience of felt recoil, 180-grain .40 is way softer than +p+ 9mm,

[Certaindeaf]

Just a reminder...no one has presented a shred of evidence that the FBI is considering a change..
This is true. Little birdies are best smote with shotguns perhaps.

[obiwan1]

I'm still on duty and carry my issued .40 all of the time that i'm not home. I have a few boxes of .40 at home and another .40 handgun. I'll stick with it until I run out of ammo. Having said that - I also have a couple of 9mm handguns and a few rounds of 9mm ammo. It is a lot cheaper to shoot and would be my SHTF caliber because of availability. However, it is interesting that during the last Obama made ammo crisis that Wally World had some .40 ammo in stock and no 9mm, .45, .38/.357 available anywhere.:D

[Certaindeaf]

^
They also had .58 musket balls.

[mcdonl]

Good points NG

[Dr_B]

Why would I want to change from .40 to 9mm just because the FBI changes? Having had a very close relative who spent 20 years in the FBI, I know it is an organization full of dysfunctional supervisors and govt red tape. I think anyone should think carefully before following anything the FBI does. If you own a 9mm, carry it. If you like .40 or .45 carry that. Pay no mind to what the FBI is doing.

[Certaindeaf]

^
Well, as was said, pretty much the reason any swinging dick went to the .40 is because the FBI did. anyways

[cocojo]

If the Feds do go back it's because both rounds of today all do the same thing. The ammunition companies have come a long way in technology. I read an article in one of the gun rags in reference to the Las Vegas PD, which issues all three calibers and gold dot bullets. They stated that when bullets are place with good hits all three calibers all worked the same and when placement was off the mark they all failed the same. I also think that the price of ammunition has something to do with it also. If all three calibers worked the same with well designed bullets why spend 5 dollars or more on ammo per box for training. When you factor in the millions of rounds they use, that's big dollars. Plus the
9mm will give you more rounds and better control. I have to say I like both calibers 9mm and 40 but the cost of ammo for the range in 40 is out of sight. Buying 9mm ball for 10 or 11 dollars compaired to 15 to 16 dollars is a big deal. 200.00 dollars for 1000 9mm or 300.00 for 1000 in 40 when they both work the same. I am leaning toward the 9mm so that I can practice without busting my wallet. It's all about picking a good bullet design and placement anyway.

[Zoogster]

I hope not.

I think 10mm Auto is a great round, and I prefer that everyone likes .40 so that bullet selection, dies, barrels, etc is cheaper and more widely available than it would be if .40 was less popular.

When the FBI changes many police departments follow suit. The average member of the public does what the police do, considering them the professionals when it comes to firearms.
So something as mundane as the FBI changing rounds could impact my reloading options in a negative way!


So .40S&W is a great round and 9mm is horrible and nobody should be risking their lives with it.

[Creature]

I have been wanting to trade in my gen 2 Glock 22 for a Glock 17 for years now...

[Hunter125]

Caliber war in 3...2...

[Certaindeaf]

^
I gather that's been done and may well be done. never know though

[tomrkba]

I shot some car doors this weekend. JHP in 9x19mm made small holes. JHP in 45 ACP made really big holes.

Either way, getting shot with either would give me a frownie face.

[Certaindeaf]

A Pinto is not really a car.

[The Man With No Name]

scaatylobo
I understand your reasoning and you are doing what you feel is best to defend yourself, you loved ones, and deal with the what if situations. I have no problem with that. Personally I'd just prefer reloads for my Uberti Cattleman vs. a back up Glock in 9mm. That is based on my own use of a Glock 17 (multiple generations) with first 9mm +P loads and now Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 grain +P+ ammo. I consider myself a much better than average shot with my Glock but no one is perfect especially under the real stress of a life and death situation so I know a less than perfectly placed shot is always a high possibility. 9mm just doesn't do as well against barriers and more importantly against bone. That is why I feel more comfortable with bullet with more mass vs. one that is driven to a high velocity.

9mm +P+ does get the job done unless a bone gets in the way.

If you are shooting 9mm +P+ Ranger ammo then indeed you might as well use .40cal 180grain as it does kick less (thinking Glock 17 vs. Glock 22). I've never understood the logic behind the +P+ ammo I use.

[bbuddtec]

There should be a switch to 9mm... I can only scavenge .40 these days... oh yeah, and thanks to whoever left half a mag of s&b .45acp brass for me :D

[The Man With No Name]

One point I failed to make, the non-existant issue of costs when switching calibers. Most agencies periodically replace their weapons without them never even being close to the end of the service life. They trade in the old weapons after the new ones are issued so the costs really are minimal.

[scaatylobo]

I used to carry the dept load of Black Talons till they changed the name [ P.C. and all that ] to Ranger SXT's.

That also became our .40 S&W round that I am CCW'ing in the G-23 that I do carry now.

I am fond of the GDHP in non +P load as its almost a target load as far as accuracy and it opens well.

We did have a shoot and the LEO used the B/T 's [ in 9MM ] and the expended round with 2 heart shots and one shoulder were amazing to behold [ LOTS of expansion ].THIS WAS PRIOR TO US GOING TO THE .40 S&W.

I am a totally firm believer in shot placement and if the shooter were wearing armor [ ie: Colo ] then the accurate shot and not the 'bone breaker' will be all that count.

I do the "mozambique" or FTS/body armor drill whenever I shoot [ weekly ] and that is now proven to me to be THE shot placement that I might need [ if ever,pray not ].

I bet we could kill a LARGE pot of coffee or a bit of beer over this in person.

[NG VI]

Oh and agency costs for ammunition is pretty much the same for 9mm and .40.

Government agencies don't pay anywhere near what we pay even buying several cases at a time.

[Certaindeaf]

^
This is true but as I said, I think a good part of it, were this whisper to transpire, would be because the 9mm universe/platforms is quite broad/rich.

[Certaindeaf]

This is simply an obvious ruse for the HRT to go back (I don't even know what they use now..) to the Hi-Power.

[peacebutready]

A little bird whispered in my ear .

That bird was told from a "source" inside the FBI that the new round will be the 9MM in expanding bullet form.

I see that as a good thing with all the new and very real world 9MM rounds made today.

If this is so,how many of you will follow that band wagon ?.

I am already leaning in that direction,higher capacity and easier to control.

I EDC a .40 S&W as well as a .45 acp .

But own 4 9MM's.

Any who would consider changing IF this comes down the pike ?.


I don't know if it was ever necessary for them to look at new calibers like the 10mm and .40 back in the 1980's. Maybe they should have thought more about different 9mm bullets. They could have designed a new bullet instead of a new cartridge. The new one would be deeper penetrating. It seems the problem with the wonder-nines in the past was them mushrooming out without enough penetration. If so, I could imagine what happened when bone was hit.

Maybe an improved 147gr may have been the answer. Or a 124gr with heavier copper to slow down the expansion. We have bonded bullets, although I don't know when they came out.

Buffalo Bore has +P and +P+ with high energy figures, so energy doesn't seem to be a problem with the right 'powders. Pure speculation here-not much knowledge with 'powder.

This thread reminds me of some LEO's going from .357 mags to semi-auto's. That didn't seem necessary. 6-shot instead of 15? No problem, just carry speed-loaders and do the necessary practice-live ammo not necessary. Recoil too much? Lighten up the loads, or have both regular and light loads.

[Certaindeaf]

Model 13's are cool. They are actually pretty good fighting guns.

Bobbed, not 4". (that was my james bondonian fail) lolz

[ArchAngelCD]

I could care less what the FBI carries. What they do has no effect on what I carry. I have always carried a .38 Special or .357 Magnum, sometimes both at the same time or 2 .38 Specials and that won't change. I'm not a LEO so I don't need 17+1 and 2 spare mags. If I were in law enforcement my choices would be different but a J frame and a NY reload suits my needs quite well...

As for the 40 S&W being very popular, that's true but IMO only because law enforcement used them but that's changing. Last year the PA State Troopers switched over from the Beretta 96 in 40 S&W to a Glock in 45 GAP. It's not a test, the whole agency changed over. I don't remember which other states changed too but I think there were 4 additional states that change out their 40 S&W's too in the past year.

IMO all the calibers have their place and need. Many calibers have been around for 100 years and will continue to do a good job for SD, especially with all the new ammo and bullets available for them. The .38 Special SD ammo of today is not your father's .38 Special. lol

[RBid]

If this is accurate, it will stir things up on the caliber war front. On the other side, the Marines ordering 1911s. If the SEALs switch to .45, it'll be a poopstorm.

[Certaindeaf]

.The .38 Special SD ammo of today is not your father's .38 Special. lolThat's fairly true. However, I've shot all kind of critters (from way back to now) with .38, +, and ++.. they all did very well.

[ArchAngelCD]

That's fairly true. However, I've shot all kind of critters (from way back to now) with .38, +, and ++.. they all did very well.
Oh I agree.

My favorite load is the "old" time tested FBI load closely followed by the Speer 135gr .38 Special +P Short Barrel load.

Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Federal and most other ammo companies are all making a quality .38 Special ammo too, in all flavors...

[Lawdawg45]

I doubt if it's true. With budget cuts coming i don't think they would spend their money on a caliber switch.

+1, besides there are 3 or 4 calibers issued by the FBI already, including the 9mm. Just depends on which unit you're talking about.

LD

[jbrown50]

The FBI never stopped issuing 9mm ammo.

The FBI still has plenty of agents carrying the SIG Sauer P226 or P228 in 9mm. They even still issue 10mm for the agents that still carry the S&W 1076 10mm.

The FBI went to the 9mm 147 gr. RA9B Winchester Bonded hollow points around early 2008 and later went to what is now the equivalent to the 147 gr. Bonded PDX1.

[Snubshooter]

If it's true, and it might be, The driving force is probably the number of non-gunguy types that they hire as agents/researchers that are unable to REqualify with their duty weapons.
These are the computer guys, lawyers, MDs, linguists etc. that the FBI hires as Agents, that almost never go in the field and only use their issue weapons when attempting to qualify. The FBI loses many of these guys each year for failure-to-qualify AFTER multiple attempts. These lost assets cost money to replace. So ADMIN-THINK is probably " Let's use a round that is easier for them to qualify with"
The Agent/Cop types will still carry the 40s and 45s and the office types will be able to qual. with the 9s,

[TestPilot]

...
Let's face it the .40 wouldn't have the following it has now (wouldn't exist really) without FBI involvement. If the Feds drop it, especially if they drop it in favor of returning to the 9mm with modern HP ammo, there will be a cascade effect of LE agencies that currently use the .40 following the FBI's lead and dropping back to the 9mm for reasons of training, controllability, and in any agency that standardizes and issues ammo to all members Budget.

Utter non-sense.

There are plenty of agencies with correct perspective that not everything the military or FBI do is the best thing to follow for them.

There are plenty of agencies that use calibers other than what is the primary issue caliber for FBI.

If people and organizations follow whatever FBI does, then why didn't people and countless agencies rush to adopt the reduced 10mm load FBI was holding on to for a while? Do you think CHP adopted 40S&W in the early 90's because FBI told them to?

Although popularity of 40S&W in law enforcement circles did help with the caliber being common, the desire for shooters to have something more powerful than 9mm in a 9mm size pistols existed for a long time. So, when someone spews non-sense like:"Answer to a question never asked..." in a pathetic effort to feign wisdon, you can safely ignore it. A simple web browsing for just a few minutes will reveal that minds like that of Jeff Cooper and Chuck Taylor were asking that very question which started the 10mm project. Chuck Tayor later stated 40S&W was actually closer to what he had in mind for 10mm.

Individuals asked that question, and so did organizations. As long as there are shooters who want to shoot something more powerful than a 9mm from a 9mm M&P, Glock 9mm sized pistols, the demand for 40S&W is unlikely to die.

40S&W is not going anywhere any time soon, FBI issued or not.

[Skribs]

Test, the .40 wouldn't have existed if the FBI didn't ask for it, so I do think the FBI involvement was needed.

[C0untZer0]

Some people make calibers out to be some kind of contest about who's right.

To me they're like different sized drill bits, different guns in different chamberings for different purposes.

I bought my first gun - a P7M8 in 1985, an old codger in the gun store piped up "Get a forty five - they got more knock down power."

I like that pistol a lot and I like 9mm because it is a very versatile round. Carl Rohrbaugh showed that a very compact gun can be made to reliably fire this potent caliber. The 45 and 40 don't seem to function well in the small 5 inch-ish package.

I wouldn't go squirrel hunting with it though, or traipse around the Alaskan wilderness with one.

Well anyway, even if this rumor is true - it won't affect me one way or the other.

I was thinking of getting a Charter Arms Pitbull chambered in 9mm though :D

[Skribs]

To me they're like different sized drill bits, different guns in different chamberings for different purposes.

Yeah, but most people are asking what's the best sized drill bit for this particular need.

[firesky101]

Wasn't it just a few months ago that the sky was falling due to DHS ordering up to 450,000,000 rounds and .40 was included in that order. Now it is drying up...:rolleyes:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=651455

[Swing]

Other than the lil' birdy, what is the source for this?

[Old Dog]

Got to the thread's fifth page before someone finally asked for a source.

Hey, it's the internet. The "little bird" should be documentation enough.

(Quick grammar question: Is it just me, or are more and more people having trouble figuring out the whole apostrophe thing? Especially using one for the possessive its, not when using the contraction of "it is.")

(My department uses only the 9mm or .45 ACP ... we don't care about what the FBI does, either)

[nickn10]

To quote LEADCOUNSEL;

"I know nothing about the change details for the FBI, but I would be shocked if it didn't have to do with budgets and smaller agents (females, more feminine males, etc.). Let's not forget that FBI agents are typically accountants, linguists, etc. They aren't typically tactical Joes fresh out of 11B school... This probably has to do with budgets, maybe a sweet HUGE deal (billions of bullets) on 9x19 contract, with free guns, who knows..."

Well stated, I find this the most plausable reason if a change is being considered by the FBI.

[peacebutready]

(My department uses only the 9mm or .45 ACP ... we don't care about what the FBI does, either)

Good to hear they don't care what the aforementioned one does.

"Support your local police department."

[scaatylobo]

If you bothered to read it,I was the OP and I got the information from a 'source' that wished to not be named as it was close to THE need to know people.

AND it could be obvious if named ,how it got out.

If you choose to not believe me,that is just fine with me.

I thought it was a VERY viable source and that many here would actually take it serious and answer it in that vein - see,even I can be wrong.

I am of the opinion that now that the 9MM is a very improved round from even 10 years back [ let alone 1986 ] that most would use that as a learning curve and go with it.

But opinions are like -------- [ dont want to get spanked again ] so guess its your call as to how or even IF you use this as a learning moment or a joke.

I own and shoot .40,.45.9MM and too many others to bother mentioning.

BUT as I age [ and learn ] I see that if a round can do more with less,then that might be a good thing.

[C0untZer0]

I don't think there will be a complete switch from .40 S&W to 9mm for all agents.

I'm thinking the 9mm will be offered as an option for some agents.

Maybe they'll allow the Rohrbaugh R9 to be carried by agents doing undercover work :D

[scaatylobo]

I do note that I see the FBI as a primary Investigation organization.

NOT like the police at all,so a gun is 99% of the time just a 'badge' of authority and not the tool that LEO's use often.

We used to get calls all the time when they wanted to make an arrest - to have the POLICE there.

And I still would not,and do not feel unarmed with a 9MM with modern ammunition.

[Kleanbore]

Five pages of speculation and opinion started by a report of an anonymous tip....