Mysterious failure to feed with SIG522


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Odd Job
July 31, 2012, 12:03 PM
I have perhaps jinxed my rifle, it had a very good record for almost 6000 rounds and I was crowing about it, but all of a sudden I have feed issues with this rifle. The issues happen with three different magazines, three different ammo types, and they happen whether the rifle is held off-hand or supported on the magazine.
I am now getting at least two feed failures per mag.
The rifle has been field-stripped and cleaned and the magazines have been carefully cleaned inside and out.

Last night I took photographs. There are two types of jams.

Type 1: the round is not chambered because it hangs up against the chamber edge at the extractor notch. This happens with all three mags, and with CCI Mini-mag and Remington Viper ammo. It happens with rounds at any position in the mag. The round hits that extractor notch with enough force to damage the bullet. First an example with the Viper ammo.

Here is the round stuck:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Viper_ramp.jpg

Here is the bullet:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Viper_bullet.jpg

And here is a composite image showing which part of the barrel is making the impressions (match the coloured arrows):

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/composite_viper.jpg

And an example of the above jam with CCI Mini-mag. Here is the round caught as before:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/CCI_ramp.jpg

Here is what the bolt side looked like:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/CCI_bolt.jpg

Here is the bullet:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/CCI_bullet.jpg

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Odd Job
July 31, 2012, 12:04 PM
The second type of jam, which is now more common and is almost guaranteed to happen at least once in every mag, is the round that gets caught in the breech, angled up so that it completely missed the chamber. This happens with RWS, CCI Mini-mag and Remington Viper ammo and it happens with all three magazines and happens at any time (not related to the cartridge number in the mag).

Here is an example with RWS target rifle:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/RWS_angled.jpg

Here is the round:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/RWS_bullet.jpg

As you can see it has taken a good hit, the case is bent.

And now an example with CCI Mini-mag:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/CCI_angled.jpg

And here is the round:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/CCI_angled_bullet.jpg

This is very frustrating. Before shooting last night, the rifle and mags had been cleaned thoroughly and all lube removed. I then put only the lube that was required. This has made no change at all.

The other thing I don't understand is these magazines are not all the same age, so they have not been subject to the same amount of wear. I have one original SIG magazine and I have two Black Dog magazines. I've been charting exactly how many rounds have been fired using each magazine from day 1.

Here is the round total by magazine as it stands now:

Original SIG mag: 4475
Black Dog mag 1: 870
Black Dog mag 2: 1169

Here is the round total by magazine, prior to when all this jamming started:

Original SIG mag: 4225
Black Dog mag 1: 650
Black Dog mag 2: 1079

If this was a magazine wear issue I would expect to have fewer jams with the Black Dog mags, but this isn't the case, it happens with all three mags...

SwissArmyDad
July 31, 2012, 05:51 PM
Might be some insight here:

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=45&t=364419

Odd Job
July 31, 2012, 07:01 PM
Hi Swiss

My mags don't do that, the round always comes to the top, the follower does not hang up. Also, I am having this issue with one original Sig mag and two Black Dog mags.

Odd Job
July 31, 2012, 07:02 PM
Update: tonight I tried some tape on one of the magazines to reduce play in the magwell. The tape worked fine but this did not solve the problem. In fact the problem is worse, cannot get three rounds shot in a row.
Thinking of sending the rifle and the mags to SIG.

armoredman
July 31, 2012, 08:51 PM
Mag catch loose, letting the mags sit a hair lower in the magwell?

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
July 31, 2012, 09:59 PM
Mag catch loose, letting the mags sit a hair lower in the magwell?

That could do it. I've seen my cousin's 10/22 do this with one of those BX25 mags, I think they were called. The area where the mag-latch holds the magazine into the well was damaged, and it wasn't sitting high enough in the mag-well to feed the way it should of.

Odd Job
August 1, 2012, 06:34 AM
Mag catch loose, letting the mags sit a hair lower in the magwell?

It can't be that because it jams if fired from the bench, resting on the mag also.

Shear_stress
August 1, 2012, 07:44 AM
Interesting. The problem happens with all three magazines, so it's unlikely all three magazines became faulty at around the same time. You've already ruled mag latch issues.

The problem might be a couple of things. First, you might have weakened extractor tension, perhaps due to either a weakened spring or dirt under the extractor. This would reduce the retention of the round from the magazine to the chamber.

The other issue might be impacted grime on the breach face. This would prevent the round from "rising up" properly along the breech face in order to be retained by extractor.

Odd Job
August 1, 2012, 07:50 AM
It is a mystery for sure. I am going to take it apart one more time, clean it and photograph all the parts.
Not sure how I can check the extractor tension, any tips on that?

Shear_stress
August 1, 2012, 07:53 AM
Not sure how I can check the extractor tension, any tips on that?

Take the bolt out of the gun and slip a cartridge between the extractor and breech face. The round should stay put when the bolt is gently shaken back and force.

Edited to add: I don't know the specifics of 522 extractor tension, so this is just an educated guess.

Odd Job
August 1, 2012, 08:39 AM
All guesses are appreciated :)

It looks okay to me, took the bolt out and attached a round, it stays even when inverted. I gave it a small shake and it stays. Took some pictures of the bolt face and extractor area:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/IMG_1529.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/IMG_1528.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/IMG_1527.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/IMG_1526.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/IMG_1525.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/IMG_1524.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/IMG_1523.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/IMG_1522.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/IMG_1521.jpg

Odd Job
August 1, 2012, 09:37 AM
Here is anther curious thing. Before this spate of chamber jams, I would from time to time experience a failure to extract, where the case was caught by the bolt at the breech. As this new jam has come in, that old extract issue has gone away. I don't know if that is significant.
Have a look at this spreadsheet, and you will see what I mean:

https://www.yousendit.com/download/TEhWd0VNNnk4NVUwTWNUQw

(If anyone wants to use it, feel free. I can make a different version available if you have an older version of Excel)

Shear_stress
August 1, 2012, 03:47 PM
Hmmm. Far be it for me to let facts get in the way of a good theory, but your above post does suggest something funky is going on with the extractor. Let me completely reverse what I said above and suggest that maybe there is now borderline too much extractor tension (due to dirt on the spring or detent) that is occasionally preventing the round from being able to fully slide up along the bolt face.

This would cause sporadic failures to feed--in those situations the round is being pushed forward from the magazine before it is aligned with the chamber. But, it would allow very positive extraction for rounds that do make it into the chamber.

Odd Job
December 12, 2012, 08:14 AM
I am going to bump this because I want to know if anyone else is having a similar issue with their SIG522.
My rifle is still with the distributor, and they have subsequently received another 7 rifles in with jamming issues (not certain if the symptoms are the same, he couldn't tell me details).
He is asking SIG in the US if there is a bad batch of 522s.
In the meantime I would like to hear from SIG522 owners who have at least 6000 rounds through the rifle: how has it been going?

chris1001
November 25, 2013, 08:52 AM
I'm having a very similar problem. Rifle has a 2012 date sticker on the box. I presume yours came from Garlands? Did they sort it eventually?

wally
November 25, 2013, 10:01 AM
Lots of great photos of the gun but none of the magazine feed lips? Magazine issues are probably 90% of autoloader feed failures.


The photo of the lead bullet jam looks like classic bolt over base which would indicate a weak magazine spring, or FOD interfering with rounds in the mag. A weak spring would be more sensitive to FOD than a fresh one would be.
For bolt over base failures cleaning the magazine is the first thing to do, followed by a new magazine spring if cleaning is not the cure.

The plated rounds that don't chamber could be caused but unequal wear on the feed lips causing the round to rotate a bit to the right as the bolt strips it and it starts to jump under the extractor causing it to miss the chamber.

6000 rounds before the problems could very well be wear issues on the plastic magazine feed lips.

Black Dog has recently switched to metal or nylon feed lips that are replaceable. Contact them, they will warranty your original Black Dog mags and allow you to upgrade to the newer metal lips model for $5 per magazine. I had a fair number of my first generation Black Dog mags develop cracks in the feed lips, they let me update them all at once instead of waiting for the remainder to also fail.

I know the tendency is not to blame the magazine since it does it with all of them, but if they've seen about equal usage its a mistake to assume its not an issue with the magazines. Its why I like to keep a new magazine set aside as a spare (after a few uses to verify that it works) so I have a "known good" one for troubleshooting later.

Looking at your photos of rounds in the bolt, they appear to sometimes lean to the right or left. I'd replace the extractor and its spring since you said you previously had ejection issues that seem to have went away when this problem appeared.

Odd Job
November 25, 2013, 05:45 PM
I'm having a very similar problem. Rifle has a 2012 date sticker on the box. I presume yours came from Garlands? Did they sort it eventually?

They did sort it eventually, and I use the word "eventually" literally. I only got the rifle back on the last day of June this year.

They replaced the recoil spring guide rod and that seems to have done the trick, however the rifle has not had a lot of rounds through it since I got it back. It has had 871 rounds through it with four different types of ammo and there have been only 3 failures. One was a stuck mag follower (no fault of the rifle) and I had two failures the last time I was at the range where the empty case was not ejected from the breech and was caught by the bolt at the same time that a new round was being chambered.
I suspect the fault here is a really dirty rifle, it hadn't been cleaned for 400 rounds at least and the magazines hadn't been cleaned ever (these are three new mags).

I am really annoyed with Garlands because they smashed the two magazines I sent with the rifle (one original SIG mag and one Black Dog mag) and they claimed they arrived broken. However they only made the claim about a month before the rifle was sent back, and I had been in touch with them before that time to discuss extractor issues etc. One guy on the phone even suggested I had packed them broken, that I had sent broken mags with the gun...
I had photos of the case contents before it was shipped and you can clearly see the mags are fine. If they had arrived broken, I would have heard about it when I checked with them after the bag arrived, that all the contents were okay.

Then they tried to say the mags were damaged by Parcelforce (on the return journey), and I should claim the damage from them (which is inviting fraud, since Garlands told me the mags were broken before they shipped the rifle).

They left the red dot on, draining the battery.

And to top it all off, they sent the rifle to the wrong address, it went to an editor of a shooting magazine. Unfortunately he opened the case and tried to tidy up the plastic bits from the broken mags and also a shattered CD case which contained a CD with all the fault logs and photos of the rifle failures on it.

I therefore can't sue Garlands because the case contents as seen by the club president and myself on initial opening were not in the same configuration as they were when they left Garlands.

In summary I would have to say you will probably get terrible service form Garlands and if there is any damage done whilst the rifle is there, you can bet they will evade, deflect and dodge any responsibility for it!

I had to buy three new mags: an original SIG 10 rounder and two CMMG 25 rounders. These magazines have performed very well with the new guide rod.

Black Dog has recently switched to metal or nylon feed lips that are replaceable. Contact them, they will warranty your original Black Dog mags and allow you to upgrade to the newer metal lips model for $5 per magazine. I had a fair number of my first generation Black Dog mags develop cracks in the feed lips, they let me update them all at once instead of waiting for the remainder to also fail.

Thanks Wally, that's good to know. As a coincidence I emailed someone at Black Dog yesterday asking about the billet aluminium mags, as I would like those for gallery shooting. The web store says they are out of stock and I want to know when they will be back because I want them!

chris1001
November 26, 2013, 04:34 AM
Thanks for the info, I'm not alone it would seem.

I hand delivered my rifle back to Garlands, 5 days later I still hadn't heard anything so gave them a call. They told me that the problem was magically solved, it was simply the magazine to blame. (I actually bought another mag from elsewhere and that had exactly the same failure to feed problems).

The chap was friendly enough and tested the rifle with 25 rounds of Winchester subs. They 'seemed' to feed fine.

On returning home I continued the test, started to get a couple of rounds that would fail to chamber, then cleaned the rifle and swapped to Eley subs and RWS 'semi-auto' rounds, these failed to chamber at a ratio of 1 in 4! I dry cycled some Winchester subs - every one had extreme damage to the round noses, they cant have shot with any accuracy.

CCI stingers feed with fewer problems, but being so high velocity and very noisy I cant shoot these on my permission, plus too expensive to run all the time.

If I push up on the base of the mag and operate the rifle then all rounds and all brands chamber and fire fine, with little or no damage to the lead bullets, and no lead shavings deposited around the chamber entrance.

I also noticed some slight damage/blemishes to the receiver that wasn't there when I initially dropped it off. :mad:

Will source some CCI mini mags as these are supposed to be ok in the Sig. If these don't feed then its going back and I'll be asking for a swap.

Chris

Odd Job
November 26, 2013, 05:56 AM
That's the standard Garlands strategy: blame the mags!
How many rounds have you fired through the rifle?

chris1001
November 26, 2013, 06:01 AM
Only about 300. Which ammo have you had the best results with?

Odd Job
November 26, 2013, 06:18 AM
My failures weren't dependent on ammo at all. These are the rounds I fired before the gun went back to Garlands (I had 42 failures and 27 of those were within one or two weeks).

CCI Mini-Mag 5185
Eley Sport 50
Eley Tenex 10
Lapua Midas M 310
Remington Thunderbolt 90
Remington Viper 90
RWS R50 20
RWS Target Rifle 440
Gecko LRN 4
RWS Match Rifle 10
CCI AR Tactical 265
Federal American Eagle 40
Federal Game-Shok 30

I now use almost exclusively CCI mini mag, unless I am using the moderator in which case I switch to Eley Sport or RWS Target, so I can fire without ear muffs.

chris1001
November 26, 2013, 06:24 AM
I've had terrible results with the new RWS "semi-auto" .22's, with RWS subsonics being a close 2nd. Will be trying a mix of CCI's and some Winchester T22's later today with any luck.

Very interested in the CCI AR tactical, if I can get any.

Odd Job
November 26, 2013, 06:34 AM
The CCI AR tactical wasn't as good as the CCI Minimag, groups were not as tight.

Here's the post-Garlands spreadsheet (feel free to use that for your own reliability log):

https://www.hightail.com/download/OGhmZm1Td0lCMTd2WnNUQw

If you need to shoot without ear muffs I suggest Eley sport + a moderator (you'll need to get a moderator with 1/2 x 28 threads). Mine is an ASE Utra rimfire which you can get from Jackson Rifles for around 80.

chris1001
November 26, 2013, 06:39 AM
Cheers, never tried the Eley sport, just the Eley subsonic hollows, they were very poor in my rifle, but possibly because of all the wax on the lead.

Love the spreadsheet by the way!

Odd Job
November 26, 2013, 06:53 AM
Enjoy!
The ammunition totals per day/per mag will auto add but you have to manually update the ammunition totals per brand up top. I do this as a check, because the two totals should match afterwards.

JRWhit
November 26, 2013, 06:58 AM
Hmmm. Far be it for me to let facts get in the way of a good theory, but your above post does suggest something funky is going on with the extractor. Let me completely reverse what I said above and suggest that maybe there is now borderline too much extractor tension (due to dirt on the spring or detent) that is occasionally preventing the round from being able to fully slide up along the bolt face.

This would cause sporadic failures to feed--in those situations the round is being pushed forward from the magazine before it is aligned with the chamber. But, it would allow very positive extraction for rounds that do make it into the chamber.
I think he's on to something. The round held by the extractor is so tight it's angled. I looks to be a slight gap under the rim opposite the extractor. It is angling it in the direction that it is hanging up. I believe the extractor is worn and holding with too much tension. Possibly wore the pin hole in the extractor letting it ride further in the breach face.

Odd Job
November 26, 2013, 07:12 AM
So far the rifle seems okay, and the extractor hasn't been changed (not unless Garlands did it on the sly).
Might be interesting to see if Chris has the same features on his bolt/extractor...

wally
November 26, 2013, 04:38 PM
If I push up on the base of the mag and operate the rifle then all rounds and all brands chamber and fire fine, with little or no damage to the lead bullets, and no lead shavings deposited around the chamber entrance.

Chris101,

While dry cycling rarely tells you anything worth the risk of chambering rounds you never intend to fire, if up ward pressure on the bottom of the magazine cures it, to me it means the mag is sitting a bit too low in the gun. Look for wear in the area of the mag catch notch on the magazine, or try replacing the magazine catch itself.

chris1001
November 26, 2013, 06:49 PM
Hi,

Mag catch seems nice and tight, the mag catch recess in the mag is nice and square, its new so no wear. I drove all over the place today to collect a variety of ammo that other people have had good results with.

Made sure the rifle was clean, no grease, no excessive oil, bore dry.

First 25 round mag was CCI mini-mags. 10 rounds fired, then I had my first failure to fully chamber (I was gutted!), bolt needed a forward assist. The rest of the mag emptied fine. At this point I'm getting worried that the rifle just isn't right.

Tried another mag, this time it stopped on round 16.

Swapped ammo, tried some Winchester T22's as I've heard good things about these in the Sig. First stoppage after 5 rounds, then another 3 before the mag was empty.

Went back to the CCI, this time 2 stoppages, round 22 and 24.

At this point I gave up, I'm wasting ammo.

Now I'm not happy at all. Only had the rifle just over 3 weeks, most of that time I've been waiting to find some ammo it'll digest. So its going back to the shop tomorrow. Refund or replacement. I bought the Sig as everyone I know that owns one tells me it'll accept almost any ammo, and can do several hundred rounds when dirty before stoppages occur.

Will keep you updated!

Odd Job
November 26, 2013, 10:18 PM
Agree, as it is only 3 weeks old I would not try to trouble-shoot it further. As a matter of curiosity, is it possible you took pictures of the failures? I would like to see where the round hangs up exactly.

Also, before you take the rifle back, strip it down and clean it and take as many detailed photos of the components as you can, particularly the bolt. You need to watch out for them giving you a different receiver with that same bolt (I don't trust them one bit, as you may well gather).

chris1001
November 27, 2013, 12:27 PM
I don't have any pics of the stoppages, but in nearly every occurrence the round was only seated about halfway into the chamber, the remainder didn't actually make it into the chamber, but were central, unlike yours which were offset.

Had a chat with someone today who was involved in the initial import into the UK of the SIG522 rifles, he is very much aware of a problem with recent imports that have defective lower receivers, too much lateral play. I managed to convince a club member to let me try his older (2010?) lower, and guess what - no lateral play, feeds 100%.

As such its gone back to the shop. I'm requesting a refund or credit note to put towards something that works as intended.

Out of interest how old is your rifle?

Odd Job
November 27, 2013, 06:28 PM
I bought mine in February 2011, the serial number is XA0179**

Red Eye Fred
November 27, 2013, 06:54 PM
I had a similar FTF problem and finally found that the slide lock that should only be activated when an empty mag is present. Was partially activated and delaying the return of the slide causing the round to miss feed in the same way that was illustrated. (A different brand of gun)

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