Glock 21sf For Defense? Kaboom?


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Fisherman12
August 4, 2012, 09:21 PM
I've been looking at the G21sf for self defense, and I shot a buddies. It seems really reliable and I tried to limp wrist it but it just wouldn't jam no matter how hard I tried. It impressed me, I must say.

But these "kaboom" stories about G21's makes me nervous about getting one. I even know a guy who's G21 kb'd. Why is this supposedly a Glock problem and should I be worried about it?

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WardenWolf
August 4, 2012, 09:27 PM
Glocks in .40 and .45 have always been a problem, though kabooms are usually associated with the .40 caliber Glocks due to flaws with both round and gun that combine to create an unsafe situation (bullet that is prone to setback combined with poorly supported chamber). My honest advice: buy a Springfield XD .45. They're better guns in every way, and very similar to the Glock.

Fisherman12
August 4, 2012, 09:44 PM
Glocks in .40 and .45 have always been a problem, though kabooms are usually associated with the .40 caliber Glocks due to flaws with both round and gun that combine to create an unsafe situation (bullet that is prone to setback combined with poorly supported chamber). My honest advice: buy a Springfield XD .45. They're better guns in every way, and very similar to the Glock.



I tried the XD. Too high a bore axis for my tastes, the muzzle was flipping a lot more for it than the Glock and it didn't "feel right."

sargents1
August 4, 2012, 10:03 PM
I've been looking at the G21sf for self defense, and I shot a buddies. It seems really reliable and I tried to limp wrist it but it just wouldn't jam no matter how hard I tried. It impressed me, I must say.

But these "kaboom" stories about G21's makes me nervous about getting one. I even know a guy who's G21 kb'd. Why is this supposedly a Glock problem and should I be worried about it?
I personally witnessed a Glock .40 Kaboom.

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g359/Sargents77/General%20Gun%20Pics/03050195115100.jpg

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g359/Sargents77/General%20Gun%20Pics/03050195115101.jpg

The guy that it happened to is an experienced reloader. It was a case of a bad handload. I dont know if that particular cartridge was a double-charge or if that piece of brass had been loaded too many times.

So, that happened, and about a month or two later I went out and bought a brand new G20SF (http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=115038). The G20 was designed as a 10mm from the get-go whereas the G22 and other .40cal Glocks are essentially re-chambered 9mm's. If you look at the chamber support for the G22 it is not as good as for the G20. This really can be a problem when you have a high pressure cartridge like the .40S&W (SAMMI spec for .40S&W is 35,000PSI, for 10mm it is 37,500PSI)

Long story short, if I were you, I would take a piece of fired .45acp brass and go look at a G21. Drop the brass into the chamber and examine the chamber support for yourself. Compare it to a 1911. I am willing to bet that the G21 has better chamber support than your average 1911 with a throated (ie non-ramped) barrel.

Kabooms can happen to Any gun. Especially with reloads. If you run factory ammo you are extremely unlikely to have an issue, especially with a low pressure cartridge like the .45acp (SAMMI spec for .45ACP is 21,000psi and .45 ACP +P is 23,000PSI) even with a chamber that is relatively unsupported. If you Do handload/reload, just make sure you inspect your brass, keep track of the number of times the brass has been loaded and toss them before they get tired-looking. And keep your Reloads to moderate pressures. Use New brass or maybe once-fired for max loads.

So:
- Go look at a G21 and compare it to others with an eye to chamber support.
- Then after you come home with your new G21 :evil: (and I bet you will), make sure you feed it decent ammo.

sargents1
August 4, 2012, 10:07 PM
Oh and be sure to look into the G21SF (short frame) and the Gen4 G21. Both have a smaller, shorter front to back, grip than the original G21 (and G20 - same frame). If you have normal to smaller hands, this could be the difference between the gun working for you and not.

Cheers,

-S

Kiln
August 4, 2012, 10:40 PM
I prefer the XDM in pretty much every way over the Glock 22 I had. If you've gotta have a Glock, get one of the 9mm variants, you don't see many kabooms with them.

WardenWolf
August 4, 2012, 11:14 PM
sargents1, more like you should NEVER reload for a Glock, especially one in .40. I'm sorry, but it's just plain STUPID to reload for one of these guns because the unsupported chamber causes more brass stress when firing. This can cause (1) premature weakening in a case that would not occur in other guns, and (2) a case rupture in a case that would otherwise have a fair bit of life left in it. Reloading for a Glock is just begging for a blowout. Chances are it wasn't a bad reload at all. It was just a case that blew out in a previously weakened spot thanks to the Glock's unsupported chamber.

Back on topic: if you do get a Glock, I'd recommend one in 9mm. Glocks are perfectly safe in these calibers. It's only on the large calibers that they're prone to catastrophic failure.

medic_guns
August 4, 2012, 11:18 PM
sargents1, more like you should NEVER reload for a Glock, especially one in .40. I'm sorry, but it's just plain STUPID to reload for one of these guns because the unsupported chamber causes more brass stress when firing. This can cause (1) premature weakening in a case that would not occur in other guns, and (2) a case rupture in a case that would otherwise have a fair bit of life left in it. Reloading for a Glock is just begging for a blowout. Chances are it wasn't a bad reload at all. It was just a case that blew out in a previously weakened spot thanks to the Glock's unsupported chamber.

Back on topic: if you do get a Glock, I'd recommend one in 9mm. Glocks are perfectly safe in these calibers. It's only on the large calibers that they're prone to catastrophic failure.
WHat? I know plenty of people that reload and shoot with glocks. The chamber support is much better in the newer guns, and a KKM or Storm Lake barrel can be used for even greater support with nuclear loads. Shooting reloads thru a Glock is far from stupid.

plouffedaddy
August 4, 2012, 11:20 PM
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/IMAG0787.jpg

The G21 served nightstand duty at my house for many years... It's a great gun; over 4k rounds and no kabooms to speak of ;)

beatledog7
August 4, 2012, 11:24 PM
Saying that it's stupid to shoot reloads from a .40cal Glock is hardly high road. Many of us do so frequently without issues. The keys to doing so are the same as with any reloads.

Now, it would be stupid to load stupidly and shoot them from a .40cal Glock, but it would just as stupid to do so from any gun.

mjsdwash
August 4, 2012, 11:34 PM
i reload for my glock, no issues, but less reliability, since the extractor tears the rims up a little. I also reload 45 acp for two pistols, 1911's, with much less chamber support than any glock in 45. I think the Kb's with 40 s&w are pretty easy to figure out, but 45 acp is not such a sensitive round.

The Man With No Name
August 5, 2012, 12:02 AM
Not sure what the issue would be with reloads in a .40 Glock. I shot a Glock 23C for years with reloads. I would replace the recoil spring every 2000 rounds (sooner than it needed) and other than that I did no maintenance. I used Starline brass and never had issues. I'd leave my brass at the range after the 3rd or 4th use.

I agree with others about the 45 Glock also. I've known plenty of people that used their own reloads in 45 Glocks.

coolluke01
August 5, 2012, 12:34 AM
Look at the dates on posts about Glock kabooms. Most all are from a few years ago. If they have a recent dates it's possibly a repost.

The chambers are more supported now and it's really not an issue anymore.

This talk about being stupid and reloading for Glock's is well, just stupid. I just saw a XD in 9mm Kaboom a few months ago. A bad hand load will destroy just about any gun. Be smart and careful if you reload.

Buy the Glock and shoot the crap out of it. The reasons you like it over the XD are very valid and are some of the biggest benefits the Glock has to offer.

ljnowell
August 5, 2012, 12:35 AM
sargents1, more like you should NEVER reload for a Glock, especially one in .40. I'm sorry, but it's just plain STUPID to reload for one of these guns because the unsupported chamber causes more brass stress when firing. This can cause (1) premature weakening in a case that would not occur in other guns, and (2) a case rupture in a case that would otherwise have a fair bit of life left in it. Reloading for a Glock is just begging for a blowout. Chances are it wasn't a bad reload at all. It was just a case that blew out in a previously weakened spot thanks to the Glock's unsupported chamber.

Back on topic: if you do get a Glock, I'd recommend one in 9mm. Glocks are perfectly safe in these calibers. It's only on the large calibers that they're prone to catastrophic failure.

Absolutely false. I hope no one reads that and believes it!

WardenWolf
August 5, 2012, 01:19 AM
Fine. If you want to do what logic dictates is a Bad Idea, go ahead. But just don't be shooting next to me at the range. I don't want to be nearby when that case you fired previously in your Glock gets turned so the overstretched area is again in line with the unsupported area of the chamber and decides to let go. You can say I'm "wrong" and that you do it all the time all you want. That still doesn't make it a good idea. Logic and physics say otherwise.

To the OP: Get what you want, just do your homework, and be aware of the limitations of your firearm. By doing that, you should be safe. Some models are obviously better than others. You have to know what you're dealing with, just like with any other gun. Try to avoid hotter loads, and only buy quality ammunition. Nothing can eliminate the possibility of a bad round or a freak accident, but you can reduce it to the point where you don't have to worry about it. The .40 in particular should be avoided, though, due to the bullet setback risk.

coolluke01
August 5, 2012, 01:33 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/Coloradoglocker/ChamberSupport-1.jpg

Now can we please stop this stupid conversation about how the Glock chamber is so much more unsupported than others. It's different, they all are, but it's not an issue.

You can't claim that all others that don't agree with you are not holding to logic. Many have shown that they have successfully reloaded for Glocks for a long time with no issues.

coalman
August 5, 2012, 02:10 AM
Gun blow when using double-charged reloads. Avoid those and Glock is GTG. My Glock 21sf was a great and soft shooting .45acp.

Inebriated
August 5, 2012, 02:15 AM
If you don't screw up with reloads, you won't have a problem.

That goes for anything. Why people pick that as some rampant issue with Glocks is beyond me.

Skylerbone
August 5, 2012, 04:01 AM
There is more to chamber support than can be demonstrated by the above pictures.

First you might note that a round like .45 ACP will almost always be loaded in brass that is short of max. SAAMI specs. Load it and fire it in a loose chambered pistol and it stretches in circumference but gets...even shorter. Combine that with a pistol that offers increased dynamic headspace and your recipe for disaster is in the works. Add some quasi polygonal rifling which increases pressure, reload that over-stretched short brass (that indexes where?) and you're playing with fire.

Most reloaders never realize how fine a line they ride, choosing instead to call bunk when faced with facts. With the above considerations it's easy to comprehend the why and how of KBs without blaming double charges or gremlins. No caliber should be taken lightly, lest you believe 20,000 psi can't hurt you.

Measure your chamber, measure your brass, take care in loading. I've managed 14+ loadings in .40 S&W with the same brass but it is not without careful observation of all things. No one can rightfully say any brand or model is "good to go" as a whole, only which ones are more prone to problem by design.

What I hope all are hearing regardless of brand is play it safe by arming yourself with understanding.

The Man With No Name
August 5, 2012, 07:45 AM
Fine. If you want to do what logic dictates is a Bad Idea, go ahead. But just don't be shooting next to me at the range. I don't want to be nearby when that case you fired previously in your Glock gets turned so the overstretched area is again in line with the unsupported area of the chamber and decides to let go. You can say I'm "wrong" and that you do it all the time all you want. That still doesn't make it a good idea. Logic and physics say otherwise.

To the OP: Get what you want, just do your homework, and be aware of the limitations of your firearm. By doing that, you should be safe. Some models are obviously better than others. You have to know what you're dealing with, just like with any other gun. Try to avoid hotter loads, and only buy quality ammunition. Nothing can eliminate the possibility of a bad round or a freak accident, but you can reduce it to the point where you don't have to worry about it. The .40 in particular should be avoided, though, due to the bullet setback risk.
Back when I still shot competitively I used two guns. I used a Les Baer 45 for any shooting that required high accuracy at distance. I used a Glock 23C for all my speed stages. The Glock I was shooting on an almost daily basis as it was also my carry gun. I still have the Dillon press that kept it fed. It was a Gen2 gun and the only mods I made were some Wolff springs. When I finally sold the gun it was well past the 12k mark (stopped keeping track after that) and I never had one single case failure. How is that even possible if you are right? I've seen plenty of guns get blown up over the years from poor handloads and that is why I would only use my own. Personally I have seen more 9mm guns blown apart than any other caliber but that is only because they are the most common caliber in my area, the number of poor reloaders using it, and not because of any weakness in them. I don't claim to be an expert about anything. I just know what I see and experience.

hentown
August 5, 2012, 08:41 AM
Bad ammo. It really is just as simple as that. Glocks don't simply spontaneously blow up with good ammo....ever. :rolleyes:

JWJacobVT
August 5, 2012, 08:51 AM
Nothing against Glocks as I have several and shoot everything (yes lead and reloads) through them. I found the Glock 21SF does not fit my hand well, however the S&W M&P 45 fits great, so will be my next 45. Just a thought.

PRM
August 5, 2012, 09:16 AM
My full time employment is on an LE Academy range. Although, Glock has never been a personal favorite of mine, it is what we are issued. Our instructors carry the Model 36 in .45 ACP. We also have Model 21s available.

We train approximately 80-85% of our State's municipal and county officers, and over recent years I have seen Glock take over the lions share of the police market. Pretty much, they have become what S&W was to the police revolver during the 60s and 70s. Our last basic class had nothing but Glocks in it.

As far as caliber, the .40 is hands down the most popular choice followed by the .45, .357 Sig. and then the 9MM.

We will go through close to 400K rounds (factory ammo) a year with the classes. Each student will shoot around 800 rounds during their range training and qualification. We have never had a catastrophic failure of a Glock due to ammo. Most issues with Glocks are in the realm of broken extractors, springs, or other small parts prone to failure with all firearms. And that is a rare occurrence.

Get past the blocky polymer look - Glocks work. They rarely malfunction, are easy to train on, and about a simple as you get. For the money, they are one of the best bang for the bucks out there.

Sapper771
August 5, 2012, 09:48 AM
Well, wardenwolf.......I guess I am just stupid. Thank you for your imput. As you can tell, it was greatly appreciated.....:rolleyes:

I have shot many thousands (~45K) of reloads through several Glocks. None of them exploded, imploded, or vaporized. I still have both eyes and have ten fingers.


I have owned several G21's. I also recommend the G30SF. They are both fine pistols. Most of us on here will recommend that you spend some time in several gun shops and try to get some trigger time before you buy. Either way, good luck.

TonyT
August 5, 2012, 11:13 AM
In 45ACP semi autos I shoot, Glocks, several 1911's and a recently purchsed S&WM&P45. I have been very impressed with the reliability and accuracy of the M&P45 - it functioned reliably with evry bullet shape from 185 gr. LSWC thru 230 gr, JHP,s and as a bonus provided nice tight ten shot group of 1 1/2 to 2 inches at 50 ft. Now if one only get the M&P45's trigger to more closely resemble a 1911.

Elkins45
August 5, 2012, 11:24 AM
You know, a bottlenecked round like the 357 Sig doesn't need a huge cut in the ramp to feed reliably.

Just sayin'...

ljnowell
August 5, 2012, 11:56 AM
Fine. If you want to do what logic dictates is a Bad Idea, go ahead. But just don't be shooting next to me at the range. I don't want to be nearby when that case you fired previously in your Glock gets turned so the overstretched area is again in line with the unsupported area of the chamber and decides to let go. You can say I'm "wrong" and that you do it all the time all you want. That still doesn't make it a good idea. Logic and physics say otherwise.

To the OP: Get what you want, just do your homework, and be aware of the limitations of your firearm. By doing that, you should be safe. Some models are obviously better than others. You have to know what you're dealing with, just like with any other gun. Try to avoid hotter loads, and only buy quality ammunition. Nothing can eliminate the possibility of a bad round or a freak accident, but you can reduce it to the point where you don't have to worry about it. The .40 in particular should be avoided, though, due to the bullet setback risk.

You are wrong again. Why do you feel the need to bash something and speak false statements? Do you have an agenda to push?

My g21 has seen over 10k handloads and not a SINGLE ONE has bulged any brass! You ARE WRONG. You are spreading innacuracies and lies on the internet, why?

hentown
August 5, 2012, 04:23 PM
IF logic had much top do with some of these discussions, somebody would logically pick up on the post(s) where hundreds of thousands of rounds have been shot through Glocks iwth no incidents. I personally have fired over 300,000 of my reloads through my Glocks, mostly .45acps through G21s. Never had a problem related to shooting .45acps through my Glocks.

LOGICALLY, if there were a systemic design problem, Glocks would be blowing up all over the place! :rolleyes::eek:

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