Proper NFA Trust Name


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whubbard
August 5, 2012, 02:35 PM
Hi All.

So I created my trust in Quicken Trust maker and it automatically made the trust name Full Name Revocable Living Trust which might be a good legal trust name, but isn't great to engrave on firearms. I am wondering if there are any legal issues with say naming it LName NFA Trust. I know a lot of people here have trusts with many different names but I'm wondering if it has ever been an issue or if there is an upside to having both Full Name and Revocable Living Trust in the name of the trust.

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Snook135
August 5, 2012, 02:38 PM
Name it what every you want... But I had a lawyer do my trust... I figured if I were going to start spending big bucks on NFA items I'm not going to scrimp on the paperwork...

Kinda like buying a actual Thompson machine gun and storing it in the closet.

boricua9mm
August 5, 2012, 02:40 PM
My Trust is named with the format "Last Name Trust." The Trust itself explicitly describes it as a Revocable Living Trust and does so early on in the document.

No issues whatsoever, and the engraving is much cleaner that way. The Form 1/4 will have your name and the Trust name, so no worries.

mcg-doc
August 5, 2012, 09:54 PM
A lawyer helped me with my trust. I was told that the name cha be anything you like. Even “In God We Trust.” I did not want my last name to appear on more federal documents. I used my initial instead; XYZ Revocable Living Trust.

whubbard
August 6, 2012, 12:25 AM
Fantastic. Thanks guy and gals.

medalguy
August 7, 2012, 12:23 AM
I used "XYZ NFA TRUST" put my initials in place of XYZ. Simple and easy to engrave, because I don't want a billboard on my NFA stuff.

boricua9mm
August 7, 2012, 09:10 AM
I'm not a lawyer, but I did take that one terrible class in college... ;)

One thing to always keep in mind is that there's a metric ton of LEOs who have absolutely no clue about NFA laws. Heck, there's a ton that are clueless that Citizens in most states can legally carry a firearm. While using cute names for the Trust makes for neater engravings and eliminates the tinfoil hat syndrome, it can create other issues in the event of an (ignorant) LEO encounter.

Using your initials isn't a bad idea. That can easily be explained. Using something that has absolutely no direct correlation to you or the other members of your Trust might make for an interesting encounter. Bringing a copy of the Trust along with you might help in such a situation, but honestly the Trust document itself exposes all your personal information and it would seem to make more sense to simply name it with your last name.

JTW Jr.
August 7, 2012, 10:55 PM
Bringing a copy of the Trust along with you might help in such a situation, but honestly the Trust document itself exposes all your personal information and it would seem to make more sense to simply name it with your last name.

Bring a copy where ? With you when you have your NFA items in your possession, say at the range ?

mcg-doc
August 8, 2012, 06:51 AM
Using something that has absolutely no direct correlation to you or the other members of your Trust might make for an interesting encounter.

So, by this logic, no one should buy a Colt SBR unless their last name is Colt. Or never buy a Form 1 NFA firearm. After all, a used Form 1 gun will have someone else Trust engraved on it.

xsquidgator
August 8, 2012, 09:02 AM
Using your initials isn't a bad idea. That can easily be explained. Using something that has absolutely no direct correlation to you or the other members of your Trust might make for an interesting encounter. Bringing a copy of the Trust along with you might help in such a situation, but honestly the Trust document itself exposes all your personal information and it would seem to make more sense to simply name it with your last name.
__________________


Using a Certificate of Trust rather than the Trust itself will get around this. I had a lawyer do my trust, and in the papers he drew up for me he included a Certificate of Trust. Use the certificate of trust when applying for a bank account in the name of the trust, or anytime you need to show that the trust exists and is valid, without exposing all of your details or the purpose of the trust. For instance the bank doesn't need to know it's an NFA trust, but they do need to see something that shows them it's a real trust.

boricua9mm
August 8, 2012, 09:13 AM
Bring a copy where ? With you when you have your NFA items in your possession, say at the range ?

Anytime you transport an NFA item, you have an understanding that you may have to deal with people, LEOs, or even the ATF. If you want to get cute with your Trust name, you'd better have a solid way of explaining it to those who are most likely clueless about all things NFA.

So, by this logic, no one should buy a Colt SBR unless their last name is Colt. Or never buy a Form 1 NFA firearm. After all, a used Form 1 gun will have someone else Trust engraved on it.

A Factory Colt SBR belonging to a Trust is most likely on a Form 4. It doesn't require any markings on your behalf. A Form 1 SBR does.

Using a Certificate of Trust rather than the Trust itself will get around this. I had a lawyer do my trust, and in the papers he drew up for me he included a Certificate of Trust. Use the certificate of trust when applying for a bank account in the name of the trust, or anytime you need to show that the trust exists and is valid, without exposing all of your details or the purpose of the trust. For instance the bank doesn't need to know it's an NFA trust, but they do need to see something that shows them it's a real trust.

Excellent info. Good to know!

tepin
August 8, 2012, 11:38 PM
Good tip on the "Certificate of Trust". Page 2 of BATFE form #1 states:

Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrantís proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request.


It would seem that for any LEO, except an ATF agent, the LEO would need reasonable suspicion or probable cause to question someone regarding their firearm (SBR or otherwise). Mere possession of a SBR in a state where they are legal to own doesn't seem to meet the threshold. If it did, then it should also be legal for a LEO to run a check on everyone at the gun range to ensure there were no felons in possession (of pistol, rifle, shotgun etc...).

Given this, it would seem that having a stamped form #1 where the name on the form (trust or otherwise) matched the engraving on the gun would be sufficient proof of registration as suggested on page 2 of form #1 itself.

I have never seen anything in the law or regulations that suggested anything other than form 1 be kept with the NFA registered device. Has anyone else?

boricua9mm
August 9, 2012, 08:29 AM
I have never seen anything in the law or regulations that suggested anything other than form 1 be kept with the NFA registered device. Has anyone else?

Many have interpreted the "Proof of Registration" as inferring that the Form doesn't even need to be kept with the firearm, simply that it must be produced to ATF upon request. I'm sure an Agent would have no problem (aside from frustration) with taking you home to get the paperwork.

In a similar vein, this isn't really about what the law does or does not say, but instead it has more to do with what actually happens when approached by officials. NFA ignorance is widespread. I believe the saying is You'll beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

tepin
August 9, 2012, 09:10 AM
I forgot about that one. Thanks for the reminder. :uhoh:


I believe the saying is You'll beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

Queen_of_Thunder
August 9, 2012, 01:49 PM
You have to engrave the trust name onto NFA items in a NFA Trust? Any specific location.

JTW Jr.
August 9, 2012, 08:12 PM
In a similar vein, this isn't really about what the law does or does not say, but instead it has more to do with what actually happens when approached by officials. NFA ignorance is widespread. I believe the saying is You'll beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

If your form 4 doesn't satisfy the "officials" , meaning they are not educated enough to know what it is, I highly doubt your trust paperwork is going to make a bit of difference.

boricua9mm
August 9, 2012, 08:20 PM
If your form 4 doesn't satisfy the "officials" , meaning they are not educated enough to know what it is, I highly doubt your trust paperwork is going to make a bit of difference.

Once again, you'll beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride. They will ultimately need to call the ATF to run the serial number to determine whether or not your item(s) are registered.

With regards to naming your NFA Trust: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

JTW Jr.
August 9, 2012, 08:26 PM
So you honestly think to the average officer that has no clue about NFA stuff , that your trust paperwork is going to suddenly make things all better in his mind ?

Highly doubtful, as if that officer is that ignorant of the laws, you are still going for a ride.

boricua9mm
August 10, 2012, 07:59 AM
So you honestly think to the average officer that has no clue about NFA stuff , that your trust paperwork is going to suddenly make things all better in his mind ?

Highly doubtful, as if that officer is that ignorant of the laws, you are still going for a ride.

If you want to go naming your Trust something silly like "We Don't Trust" then you've already made the choice to take the path of a more difficult learning session in the event of an un-savvy LEO encounter. Having a Trust in your name, with the Form 1 item engraved with your name makes for a much easier explanation.

Some of you guys want to play silly games with NFA; have at it. You want to shrink down Forms to 3" x 2" and hand it to somebody and expect for them to take it seriously, then go for it. You want to name your Trust in some cute manner because you think it somehow vaporizes your name from the NFA registry, then go for it. You wish to hide your engraving under a part that must be disassembled, then have fun. It won't be very fun when its all under scrutiny.

Again...Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

boricua9mm
August 10, 2012, 08:01 AM
You have to engrave the trust name onto NFA items in a NFA Trust? Any specific location.

Only if they are Form 1 items, where you are the maker. The location is supposed to be in a conspicuous area that does not require disassembly of the firearm to access it.

JTW Jr.
August 10, 2012, 09:24 AM
f you want to go naming your Trust something silly like "We Don't Trust"
DOH ! I totally missed what you were getting at there with the silly name part , I agree 100% on that.

suppressedthunder
October 6, 2012, 10:34 PM
When I purchased my trust from 199trust.com they just made the last name + trust. in my case it was the "Snelling Trust". It worked nice engraved on my SBR. Easy explanation should someone ask.

I read one post that said they used quicken to do the revocable trust. My trust had a bunch of NFA specific language in it. Did quicken have NFA language in it too? Anywho I was more than happy to have a pro do mine, I didn't want to risk my forms getting denied to save a couple pennies, the SBR cost me 2000 so what was a little extra to make sure the paperwork was good to go.

Stringer99
October 9, 2012, 09:29 AM
I would name it whatever you want. It is not being "cute", and it doesn't mean you're "playing games". :rolleyes:

Just bring the trust with you if you transport. I have mine in a small zippered binder with page protectors. Simple.

I wouldn't want my name engraved on a firearm of any kind for a number of reasons. But that's just me ... ;)

I exported my quicken documents to microsoft word, which allows me to make any changes I wish.

boricua9mm
October 9, 2012, 08:38 PM
I would name it whatever you want. It is not being "cute", and it doesn't mean you're "playing games".

Just bring the trust with you if you transport. I have mine in a small zippered binder with page protectors. Simple.

I wouldn't want my name engraved on a firearm of any kind for a number of reasons. But that's just me ...


Personally, I'd much rather have a Trust name in the format of "My Last Name Trust" so that I can easily prove to any halfway reasonable Range Nazi, hot-headed LEO or ATF Agent that my Form 1 items are, in fact, legally owned by me. I have no desire to have my Trust stolen, duplicated, or used as an itemized map to my residence or the residence of my Trustees so that they can go rob the rest of the NFA goodies.

Some things make sense. Other things sound good for the Conspiracy Theorist inside of us, but they actually serve to make things more difficult out in the real world.

medalguy
October 9, 2012, 10:17 PM
All I carry with me, and all I've carried since 1968, is a legible copy of the ATF registration papers. Never carried a full copy of my trust that could be lost, or even a schedule or a certificate of trust.

And, by the way, I've never been challenged by any LEO about my firearms. I have been stopped on public lands several times by BLM rangers who asked about what I was shooting, and I've always shown them everything I was shooting, even offered to let them fire them. One ranger had at least one NFA item himself by his own admission.

kimbershot
October 15, 2012, 04:19 PM
just did my trust and sent in in last fri. first name, last name, rlt, city, state is what i will have engraved on my barrel. keep it simple.:what:

Rob62
October 20, 2012, 11:09 PM
Let me try and answer what has been brought up.

You can name your Living Revocable Trust (LRT) anything you want. However the **entire** trust name and city / state MUST be engraved on your NFA item if you are making/building it. No abbreviations except your two letter state code.

So if you decide to name your trust "Johnathan Paulson Jones Living Revocable Trust" all that must be engraved on your firearm. Plus the city and state of the trust. So if the address of the trust shows Atlanta, GA you would need to have "Johnathan Paulson Jones Living Revocable Trust Atlanta GA" engraved. You specifically can not only engrave "JPJ Living Revocable Trust Atlanta GA", "JPJ RLT Atlanta GA" or "Johnathan Paulson Jones RLT Atlanta GA" to shorten it, on your item. The only thing that can be abbreviated is the state i.e. GA for Georgia

My personal opinion is that for an individual you should tie your actual name in some context to the trust name.

In the above example I would *actually* name my RLT "JPJ Living Revocable Trust" - short, sweet, and not to much to have engraved (don't forget the city and state also get engraved). If anyone ever asks you about the issue in a legal context, its pretty easy to say and prove that you are Johnathan Paulson Jones of the "JPJ Living Revocable Trust"

I'll be the first to admit that at the below links there is talk about recognized abbreviations and marking variances. But from everyone I have spoken to about this issue, and all I have read from credible sources these points are moot as BATFE has not in actual practice recognizing them.

Hope that makes sense.

Regards,
Rob

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2008/08/what-is-required-by-the-atf-fo.html

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-7.pdf

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