Duty/Pocket combos


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Skribs
August 6, 2012, 05:33 PM
I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle, and would like to have weapons that have a similar MOA - preferably across both hands. Specifically in this case, I'm thinking about left-hand IWB carry for a duty or compact sized pistol, and pocket carry for a single-stack sub-compact in the right hip pocket.

What I want are a pair of options with:
*Same caliber
*Same trigger style (willing to substitute LDA for SFA)
*Same style controls: roughly same location, same options, same ambidexterity, same safety (or lack of safety). For example, the XDm and XDs both have right-hand-only slide stop, so they are similar.
*Duty or Compact size needs to be double-stack.

These options do not necessarily need to be the same brand, as long as they have similar features above.

I am aware that various incarnations of the 1911 would fit this bill, as well as (mentioned earlier) XDm and XDs.

M&P does not (Shield lacks certain ambi features), PPQ/PPS does not (same reason), although any of those has the potential to be half of the set if they match something else.

If any part of my question isn't clear, please ask for clarification and I'll try to reword it. Basically, I'm looking for a double-stack pistol and a single-stack pistol that - aside from the physical size of the gun and the capacity - are essentially the same, and that if I am trained on one, it will be very easy to transition to the other.

ETA: I guess the Glock series would work as well, the G21/30/36 specifically.

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TennJed
August 6, 2012, 06:23 PM
M&Pc 9mm and Shield for same caliber. I would also consider the CZ Rami and Sig p938 combo

For me (I know it is not the same caliber) I am considering the Sig P250 and P290 combo.

Skribs
August 6, 2012, 06:25 PM
I already mentioned why the M&P and Shield do not match.

Skribs
August 7, 2012, 05:12 PM
Well I was hoping for some ideas...looks like I'll be spending some time in excel in the near-ish future doing a spreadsheet.

Striker
August 7, 2012, 05:20 PM
Based on your parameters Glock for double stack and Kahr (P or CW series) for single stack would fit the bill. Control placement and manipulation is identical for both.

Girodin
August 8, 2012, 08:49 AM
The triggers of the Glock and Kahr are fairly different. The Kahr has a lot more take up, is heavier, and has a reset that is dramatically longer. Trigger control training for one is not really a direct carry over for the other.

That said, I don't see it being a real big issue.

Skribs
August 8, 2012, 01:09 PM
Yeah, Kahr is DAO. I haven't shot one personally, but I would assume the trigger pull would be heavier. I'm willing to consider LDA (light double action) and striker fired pistols to be about the same, but a DAO is a different animal.

JERRY
August 8, 2012, 01:34 PM
with the exception of my LC9 and my 1911s which are range toys or woods guns (CDE), all of my semi-autos are point and shoot. glocks, seecamps, S&W 39XX DAO.

for life or death scenarios i want to point and pull the trigger. the less i have to manipulate the better. i have no problems with the 1911s but because my wife whom is not gun savvy might have to use one, i keep the 1911s for non-defensive uses.

Skribs
August 8, 2012, 03:15 PM
I'm with you on that, Jerry, although one of the moderaters here made a good case for having a manual safety. Not enough of an issue for me to switch my philosophy entirely, but I'm now open to the idea of it. However, if I have a manual safety on one pistol, I want my other carry guns to be similar, so it is a similar MOA when operating them. That way I'm always doing things the same.

I went with Access over Excel, I'm looking through several different manufacturer's currently produced options, then I'll run some queries and do some sorting. I'm not looking at 1911s in this list, though, because I already know they'll work for this (just because they'll work doesn't mean I've decided to use them) and because I think with their trigger, I want to keep them separate.

Girodin
August 8, 2012, 09:25 PM
The DOA pull on the Kahrs is not one I find objectionable in anyway. I've shot about 7 or eight different Kahrs a fair ammount. Their triggers are not as heavy as my Ruger or smith revolvers. Nor does do they stack like many DOA triggers do. Rather, it is smooth and only slightly heavier than the factory pull on the striker fired guns I am familiar with. It is a much better trigger pull than the DA pull of the sigs I've shot, much lighter. The biggest difference versus the striker fired guns is that it is much longer, and as I said before, has a MUCH longer reset. For me, it isn't deal breaker to carry it as a secondary to a glock.

Storm
August 9, 2012, 12:49 PM
For me (I know it is not the same caliber) I am considering the Sig P250 and P290 combo.

If you can live with the DAO trigger a P250/P290 combo would work. I find the P290 just small enough for pocket carry, especially with a Nemesis pocket holster. The P290 appearing to be bulky is rather deceptive compared to how it actually carries.

Shawn Dodson
August 9, 2012, 03:30 PM
My IWB carry guns are Glock 19 and Kahr PM-9. Both have same MOA. I don't notice the difference between triggers.

I pocket carry a Seecamp 32.

Averageman
August 10, 2012, 10:19 AM
A lot of folks dont consider the G26 to be a "Pocket Pistol", but my choice is the G17-G26 combo.
The slightly added size and weight make up for the ability to have similar controls and my ability to use my 17 magazines in my 26.
I'm not an undecover cop, so printing isn't an issue and although the size of the G26 has some disadvantages they are worth the effort.

Skribs
August 10, 2012, 11:58 AM
I'm not an undecover cop, so printing isn't an issue and although the size of the G26 has some disadvantages they are worth the effort.

Not even sure why it would be an issue for a UC cop. Many of the gangs they infiltrate would carry anyway, no?

I agree that a lot of guns besides the single stack can be used as a pocket pistol, in fact I have a pocket holster for my XDm compact. However, I have decided I want something a bit smaller. I can always get a sub-compact, a slimline, and a compact/duty pistol and alternate between what I carry depending on mood.

What I've come to realize after looking at some stuff (although I still have more to go through) is I'm likely to make my decision starting with a pocket pistol, and then selecting a duty pistol that has similar characteristics.

Skylerbone
August 10, 2012, 12:29 PM
Skribs, you may want to revisit some of the models not presently making the list and here's my rationale. Things like an ambi mag. release are great for lefties who want to swap it but as you're holstering it, it can only be configured one way. If injured in an encounter it's unlikely you'll have the time or dexterity needed to switch it. Better to train for weak hand manipulation.

Setting it up and carrying it for weak hand intentionally is a far greater handicap than having a non-ambi combo. Just a thought.

Skribs
August 10, 2012, 12:49 PM
Reversible magazine release is NOT ambidextrous. Manufacturers say it is, but it really lets you choose between which hand. A magazine release which does not require reversal to be used by left or right hands IS ambidextrous.

I'm also not excluding things from the list because they don't have a certain feature. I am only including combinations which have the same features. So if a certain pair doesn't have the same features, that isn't a pair I will consider. That's not to say that I won't consider either of those individual weapons paired with something that does have similar features.

Skylerbone
August 10, 2012, 02:30 PM
Fair enough, and clearer now (to me) but I do feel such a search may eliminate platforms that excell in the all important reliability department.

Good thread so far.

Skribs
August 10, 2012, 03:05 PM
Luckily there are a lot of platforms that excel in the reliability department. Also, all "100% reliable platforms" have lemons in those models. Like I said, I'm doing a DB in Access to look at what options are out there, and then I'll look at what matches up with different single-stacks.

I was briefly considering breaking my caliber rule to go with a FiveseveN for the duty pistol, until I looked at where they put the safety on it. I'm not willing to break my MOA rule.

RSVP2RIP
August 11, 2012, 07:09 PM
Kahr T9 and any of their sub compacts would do. I feel that a double stack is not needed but YMMV.

Skribs
August 13, 2012, 01:26 PM
I feel that for something going on my belt, I might as well get something with capacity. For something in my pocket, capacity = weight and is actually something I want to keep down.

WC145
August 16, 2012, 10:06 AM
Are you going to be carrying on the job or are you just interested in a duty type/style of gun?

CZ223
August 17, 2012, 08:02 PM
G-19/40 and LC-9.

Skribs
August 17, 2012, 08:46 PM
LC-9 has a manual safety, CZ223.

Are you going to be carrying on the job or are you just interested in a duty type/style of gun?

Duty type/style. I literally can't carry at work (federal property).

I ended up narrowing it down to a few options. I took out those with a DAO trigger (they didn't have the ambi features I wanted anyway), took out those with less ambi features than similar options (i.e. took out Glock in favor of XD/Caracal because the later has ambi mag release instead of reversible), and took out the options that I decided the single stacks were a tad too tall.

Ended up narrowing it down to 1911s (double-stack and a 3") or XDm/Caracal+XDs. Due to price, and a perceived lack of benefit for my application, I've decided to go with the plastic option.

Quoheleth
August 17, 2012, 11:17 PM
How about a Sig 250 for duty and a Kahr CW9 for backup?

Both DAO, long, smooth triggers.

Q

TennJed
August 18, 2012, 03:06 AM
How about a Sig 250 for duty and a Kahr CW9 for backup?

Both DAO, long, smooth triggers.

Q

Good suggestion

I am considering a P250 for duty and a P290 for backup. The P290 is essentially a smaller p250

WC145
August 18, 2012, 08:49 AM
I went through a similar search a while back. Even though I prefer 1911s, I settled on a 9mm DAO Beretta Mini Cougar and a custom 9mm scandium frame S&W snubby - same ammo, similar triggers, both point and shoot. The Beretta was good for both on and off duty carry because you can use full size mags with grip extender sleeves to make it the same size as a standard Cougar. It was a good combo until I soured on the 9mm for duty carry.

These days my duty gun is a FNP45 Tactical and I love it - 16rd capacity, ambi everything, DA/SA or cocked & locked (my preference), decocker, second strike capable, same grip angle as a 1911, optic ready slide, 100% reliable, and very accurate- it is everything I ever wanted in a duty piece. Plus, fully loaded with 16 230gr rounds and equipped with a Trijicon mini red dot sight, it actually weighs less than a 1911 loaded with 9 rounds of the same ammo.

I've come to the conclusion that, for me, ammo compatibility between primary and back up isn't all that critical. The two guns have different uses and don't need to be exactly the same. My primary needs to be able to fill a wide range of needs but my BUG is a last ditch, "get off me˝ gun that must be simple and reliable, and function under the worst possible circumstances using either hand and my snubby fills that roll perfectly.

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