Sig ACP...I just don't get it!


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nwilliams
August 6, 2012, 10:52 PM
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/ACP-Basic-detail-hero.jpg

So the gun shop I work at got one of these things in today and all any of us (employees) could do was roll our eyes and make fun of this thing. It seems absolutely pointless to me and everyone I talked to. It's ridiculous looking, awkward, bulky and you can't legally put a stock or forward pistol grip on it. I'm just confused as to why adding this big clunky ugly looking thing to your handgun is an advantage in any way? Seriously nobody at the shop could come up with practical reason for this thing's existence. One of the dumbest things about this contraption is that it makes it near impossible to clear any sort of malfunction of the firearm because you can't gain access to the slide! I'm actually pretty disappointed in Sig, especially considering the MSRP on this thing is a staggering $369!

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19-3Ben
August 6, 2012, 10:56 PM
That is some pretty silly looking stuff right there.

TennJed
August 6, 2012, 10:59 PM
Yeah, that is pretty pointless to me. Here is an article I just found on it. The only thing I see that could be helpful would be the folding stock, which would require it to be registered as a short barreled rifle.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/01/12/more-on-the-sig-acp-adaptive-carbine-platform/

paintballdude902
August 6, 2012, 11:01 PM
not too bad if he got a tax stamp and added a stock and foregrip

Robert
August 6, 2012, 11:02 PM
Sig, now with more Mossberg.

checkmyswag
August 6, 2012, 11:39 PM
^this!^

Watch your lane.

2DREZQ
August 7, 2012, 02:59 AM
Had to double check the date...
Nope, not April 1st.

I want one, just to hang every imaginable scope, holosight, laser, flashlight and night vision, spare mag holder, and bipod I can on it, then charge people $1 each to hold it at gun shows.

12131
August 7, 2012, 03:09 AM
With all the pimp models Sig USA has been putting out the past few years, why should anyone be surprised with this abortion?

Auto426
August 7, 2012, 03:14 AM
I noticed it on the Sig website as well and was completely confused as to why it exists. The main point of adding a "carbine" attachment to a gun would be to have a buttstock allowing you to fire it shouldered for increased control, however since this thing doesn't include 16.1" barrel for your pistol, you can't legally do it. It also seems that any optics mounted on the top rail would immediately loose zero if the pistol were removed and reinserted. The single sided charging handle also seems like it would make the pistol slower to reload as well.

tarosean
August 7, 2012, 03:15 AM
someone will buy it.. seems to be right up the ally of the SHTF, ZOMBIE, Mall Ninja crowds...


No thanks a far as I am concerned.

YankeeFlyr
August 7, 2012, 03:33 AM
Looks like all the Tacticool stuff folks hang on ARs these days...while most folks who do will never even learn to really "use" the stuff.

But whatever...

9mmepiphany
August 7, 2012, 03:48 AM
I would guess it would appeal to the same folks who bought the H&K SP-89

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQT_da2XZreVtMeu2MbT-ErzXLTapPytOkgifxZd_WIkSEgMSLzcA

elryanoo
August 7, 2012, 03:59 AM
They should make a 16 inch upper like the mechtech. Instead of this thing that just adds a big hunk of metal to a pistol.

nwilliams
August 7, 2012, 04:10 AM
I would guess it would appeal to the same folks who bought the H&K SP-89

Well the SP-89 is a somewhat impractical civilized version of the the more practical MP5K. The Sig ACP turns a practical handgun into an impractical abomination. I can't honestly see how it could serve military or LE any better than an MP5, UMP or any carbine for that matter. As far as the civilian market is concerned it really has no practical purpose at all that I can think of.

TG13
August 7, 2012, 05:18 AM
you can mount a short shoulder sling to it without breaking any NFA rules..

shootr
August 7, 2012, 06:14 AM
Just an extension of never-ending "making it better" IMHO. Bet they sell a bunch of them.

beatledog7
August 7, 2012, 08:11 AM
They'll sell a bunch, but only to those who are cool enough to understand. That's not me.

The Man With No Name
August 7, 2012, 08:13 AM
Looks like something that would fit in a Bladerunner remake or another Star Wars movie. Seems hard to believe that this isn't some joke.

460Kodiak
August 7, 2012, 11:26 AM
Yep, no real point to it. I'll save my money.

JustinJ
August 7, 2012, 11:45 AM
Is there a stock available for it?

Skribs
August 7, 2012, 12:00 PM
Would be amazing in a movie. CGI a cyan muzzle blast and make it a pulse pistol or something to that effect.

wojownik
August 7, 2012, 02:46 PM
Looks like a tacticool update of the CZ vz. 61 skorpion.

Or someone had a (bad) fantasy about making a Star Wars Stormtrooper pistol out of a Sig.

Bleah... Hard to keep begin a Sig-fan when the keep pumping more and more silly stuff ... and pumping up prices...

Skribs
August 7, 2012, 02:51 PM
Except that looks more like a Jawa blaster than a Stormtrooper blaster to me...

limpingbear
August 7, 2012, 03:03 PM
I would rather have a Mechtech CCU. It would be about the same price and a lot more accurate. I see a lot of mall ninjas buying this thing.

VBVAGUY
August 7, 2012, 04:17 PM
Dont lie, secretly you all want one :D LOL !!! God Bless :)

Detritus
August 7, 2012, 04:46 PM
Seems hard to believe that this isn't some joke.

just remember the "CZ-75 Bayonet" WAS a joke and then folks went monkeypoo asking when CZ was going to start shipping them! :scrutiny:

wojownik
August 7, 2012, 05:25 PM
Except that looks more like a Jawa blaster than a Stormtrooper blaster to me...


The Jawa blaster was based on an Enfield rifle with a can on the end. The Stormtrooper blaster was a bit more tacticool, using the Sterling as its base.

The Sig ACP might actually harken back to the Battlestar Galactica blaster (the original 1970s series).

But, speaking of Battlestar Galactica, the reimagined 2004 series used pistols that reminded me a lot of the Sig p290 with laser attached, and the SP2022 with laser.

yeah, got too much time on my hands today. But the Sig ACP is still silliness IMHO.

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q490/viher001/blasters.png

nwilliams
August 7, 2012, 05:26 PM
It sold!

This thing seriously lasted a couple days in our gun shop and then someone decided they needed to own this thing.

9mmepiphany
August 7, 2012, 06:23 PM
But, speaking of Battlestar Galactica, the reimagined 2004 series used pistols that reminded me a lot of the Sig p290 with laser attached, and the SP2022 with laser.
That's odd as most of the guns used were just regular factory gun with the exception of the Season 1 Colonial handgun (S&W 686)
http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/9/9f/Oldpistolv2.jpg

patterned after Decker's gun in Blade Runner.

The most frequently seen guns on BSG was the FN FivesevenN and the Beretta CX4 Storm

kcshooter
August 7, 2012, 06:27 PM
Sig, now with more Mossberg. For the win.
And now I have to explain my random outburst of laughter at work.


It could use a muzzle brake, though, don't you think?

Auto426
August 7, 2012, 06:32 PM
That's odd as most of the guns used were just regular factory gun with the exception of the Season 1 Colonial handgun (S&W 686)

I may not know anything about Battlestar Galactica, but I do know that's a Colt revolver hiding under there.

Skribs
August 7, 2012, 06:40 PM
Wojo, the muzzle looks more like the Jawa blaster to me, about the same diameter. But I guess overall it looks more like a stormtrooper weapon.

9mm, you left out the COP deringer used in one or two episodes. I don't know enough about revolvers to tell what that is, but IMFDB has it listed as a 686:
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica#Colonial_Handgun_.28Smith_.26_Wesson_Model_686.29

The fiveseven's also had the grenade launcher attached to the rail. I personally find it interesting that even though their primary enemy is a bunch of robots, they still had weapons designed for use on humans. I can understand it in Terminator since the war with the machines was after most of society was destroyed. In the case of BSG, they had their technology based around fighting machines, and should have had weapons better designed for that task.

shatnerglass
August 7, 2012, 06:56 PM
That's not a stock. It's a single point sling, which will help a lot in stabilizing the weapon. Same principle as the buffer-less RRA AR pistols.
Still, I agree it's a ridiculous accessory. Especially since it makes it so difficult to clear a malfunction. It's definitely for the Mall Ninja crowd. Sad that Sig is catering to that clientele.

boricua9mm
August 7, 2012, 07:02 PM
Once again, some of you guys need to open your eyes and start seeing things in Title 2.

Walking Dead
August 7, 2012, 07:29 PM
At least it will be easy to attach the chainsaw handle.

kcshooter
August 7, 2012, 07:30 PM
Once again, some of you guys need to open your eyes and start seeing things in Title 2. Sooo, pointless, goofy, and unnecessarily expensive? Gosh, count me in!

bluethunder1962
August 7, 2012, 07:33 PM
Looks like something those big heads on son of guns would come up with.

boricua9mm
August 7, 2012, 08:07 PM
Sooo, pointless, goofy, and unnecessarily expensive? Gosh, count me in!

Your eyes are still shut. Adding a stock to a SIG pistol housed in an ACP isn't illegal. Doing so without a tax stamp is illegal. Do you truly believe that a 9mm pistol is just as effective of a weapon as a 9mm SBR?

Title 2 is the purpose of this thing, not Title 1.

Skribs
August 7, 2012, 08:21 PM
He said pointless, goofy, and unecessarily expensive. How did he say it was illegal?

kcshooter
August 7, 2012, 08:22 PM
Adding a stock to a SIG pistol housed in an ACP isn't illegal. Never said it was. Just pointless, goofy, and unnecessarily expensive.
Do you truly believe that a 9mm pistol is just as effective of a weapon as a 9mm SBR?Yes.
Let me qualify that.
In this case, it isn't really a SBR (unless you're the ATF).
It's simply a pistol with a stock. (And a bunch of pointless, goofy rails.)

Whoop-de-do.




(BTW, in the OP's photo, isn't even a stock, it's just a place to mount a sling and a red dot (and a laser, and a bayonet, and a bottle opener...). How does that make it more effective?)




Your eyes are still shut. Nah, it's just these tactical operator assault sunglasses are so damn dark....

TennJed
August 7, 2012, 11:31 PM
Your eyes are still shut. Adding a stock to a SIG pistol housed in an ACP isn't illegal. Doing so without a tax stamp is illegal. Do you truly believe that a 9mm pistol is just as effective of a weapon as a 9mm SBR?

Title 2 is the purpose of this thing, not Title 1.

Not sure your eyes are open to what people here are saying. Pretty expensive and silly route to go to accomplish what you are saying

balance 740
August 8, 2012, 12:24 PM
It looks like they got the idea from the Hera-Arms Triarii. If you want one of these with a stock, it already exists.

http://www.hera-arms.com/triarii#/triarii/

Here is the team captain of the German Walther shooting team putting rounds through a P99 in the Triarii:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvIy7TlTxU

There is also another one of these made by CAA called the RONI:

http://www.caatactical.com/viewCategory.asp?catID=376

And a company video showing it in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpNA-TZnMC4

Not very practical IMO, but they look like fun. That being said, I'm not getting one of these for a pistol without a stock, or going through the paperwork to get one with a stock.

J_L_A
August 8, 2012, 08:11 PM
That thing is an abomination

Fishslayer
August 8, 2012, 11:29 PM
Sig, now with more Mossberg.

<looking for rofl emoticon>

That's pretty bad...:what:

Skribs
August 8, 2012, 11:31 PM
That thing is an abomination

That thing is nowhere near a full-auto Saiga 12 with holo sight, attached grenade launcher and spring-loaded bayonette.

Detritus
August 9, 2012, 12:12 AM
That thing is nowhere near a full-auto Saiga 12 with holo sight, attached grenade launcher and spring-loaded bayonette.


I know it's splitting hairs but, He said "an abomination" not that it "was Abomination" and I think the capital is warranted. :evil:

StrikeFire83
August 9, 2012, 12:18 AM
Wow, that's incredibly stupid.

Sheepdog1968
August 9, 2012, 12:47 AM
They have a five minute video about it on their website describing it. It works with ANY pistol that has an under the barrel rail. Sigs as well as non Sigs. They have the Uzi type sling as well as a folding stock. Yes special paperwork. I don't want one but it doesn't seem as crazy as I initially thought.

http://www.sigsauer.com/Catalog/acp-adaptive-carbine-platform.aspx

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 9, 2012, 01:13 AM
I think for LE purposes it could have some use for those that want something with a buttstock but have something concealable. Other than that I don't see a use but since when does something in the gun world need a use to exist?

nwilliams
August 9, 2012, 01:22 AM
The video is really only good for a laugh if you ask me. They are trying so hard to sell you on a product that is so pointless!

Even with a should stock added the ACP doesn't improve the performance of the gun it's being used on, if anything it takes away from the gun's performance and definitely takes away from your guns reliability because you still have no easy way to gain access to the slide to clear a malfunction, the ACP isn't an enhancement it's a liability!

PabloJ
August 9, 2012, 06:49 AM
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/ACP-Basic-detail-hero.jpg

So the gun shop I work at got one of these things in today and all any of us (employees) could do was roll our eyes and make fun of this thing. It seems absolutely pointless to me and everyone I talked to. It's ridiculous looking, awkward, bulky and you can't legally put a stock or forward pistol grip on it. I'm just confused as to why adding this big clunky ugly looking thing to your handgun is an advantage in any way? Seriously nobody at the shop could come up with practical reason for this thing's existence. One of the dumbest things about this contraption is that it makes it near impossible to clear any sort of malfunction of the firearm because you can't gain access to the slide! I'm actually pretty disappointed in Sig, especially considering the MSRP on this thing is a staggering $369!
It would have to be "selective fire" and come with long magazines to be of any practical value.

NG VI
August 9, 2012, 10:02 AM
I think for LE purposes it could have some use for those that want something with a buttstock but have something concealable


Take a Sig (already one of the bulkiest pistol platforms) and then add this pound or two (and even more bulk) contraption to it, and then add a buttstock (generally even the smallest are bigger than a normal sized service pistol) to one side of it, and how exactly is anyone supposed to conceal it under anything but a duffle bag?

There's more to concealment than just overall length.

Jinx D'jinn
August 9, 2012, 10:42 AM
I suspect it will be used when TV reboots The Man From U.N.C.L.E. :D

Skribs
August 9, 2012, 11:59 AM
I know it's splitting hairs but, He said "an abomination" not that it "was Abomination" and I think the capital is warranted.

It's an internet forum, I assumed the grammar was off ;)

JLA, I'm not making fun of you, just trying to preserve my joke.

J_L_A
August 9, 2012, 08:22 PM
It's an internet forum, I assumed the grammar was off

JLA, I'm not making fun of you, just trying to preserve my joke


Preserve away ;)

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 10, 2012, 01:33 AM
Even with a should stock added the ACP doesn't improve the performance of the gun it's being used on,

It's not about improving the pistol but how you handle it. Don't you think you could be more accurate with a pistol if it had a buttstock?

Take a Sig (already one of the bulkiest pistol platforms) and then add this pound or two (and even more bulk) contraption to it, and then add a buttstock (generally even the smallest are bigger than a normal sized service pistol) to one side of it, and how exactly is anyone supposed to conceal it under anything but a duffle bag?

There's more to concealment than just overall length.

I'm not talking about something used in a IWB holster under a untucked T-Shirt but more of being used under a coat. People have carried sub machine guns that are bulkier under a suit coat successfully. I can carry my AK74 with a folding stock concealed under my normal winter jacket.

nwilliams
August 10, 2012, 05:43 AM
It's not about improving the pistol but how you handle it. Don't you think you could be more accurate with a pistol if it had a buttstock?

Perhaps, but I'm not going to carry a handgun with a stock for personal protection. I'm accurate enough with my handguns without a stock at a logical defensive range. The only time I can see you wanting to get more accurate range out of handgun caliber weapon is in a tactical LE or military application and there are plenty of better choices out there than the ACP. As a civilian carrying for personal protection the ACP is completely impractical. As a LE or military person the ACP is completely impractical because it's changing the purpose of your sidearm (which is meant to be your sidearm) and making it more unreliable. In a LE or military application the ACP serves no function because there are more reliable options out there, for example the MP5, UMP, P90 or even a freakin' Uzi for that matter!

boricua9mm
August 10, 2012, 08:45 AM
Never said it was. Just pointless, goofy, and unnecessarily expensive.

The point of this thing is for people wishing to build a unique SBR using a pistol that they already own as the base. Goofy? Well, we're all entitled to our own opinions. People have been adding stocks to pistols for over 100 years now. I'd call that a clue. Unnecessarily expensive? If you look at the other chassis style systems that are becoming available for pistols, this isn't really out of line with those options.

Yes.
Let me qualify that.
In this case, it isn't really a SBR (unless you're the ATF).
It's simply a pistol with a stock. (And a bunch of pointless, goofy rails.)

Whoop-de-do.

You'd be dead wrong if you think you can shoot as fast, as accurately, and as far with a pistol than you can a 9mm SBR. It's not really even open to debate. The ATF isn't the only one allowed to own SBRs. Again, you really don't seem to understand the NFA market that this thing is primarily intended for.

Ever wonder why rifle caliber "pistols" (ARs, AKs, etc.) sell? Ever wonder why guns like the SP89 and Uzi pistols sell? Most of the people who seek them out are doing so for NFA (Title 2) conversions. They're not sitting out at the range awkwardly trying to shoot them or deploy them for defensive purposes.

kcshooter
August 10, 2012, 10:55 AM
The ATF isn't the only one allowed to own SBRs. Again, you really don't seem to understand the NFA market that this thing is primarily intended for.I understand just fine, thank you. You seem to have trouble comprehending this, however.
There is no reason to refer to this as a SBR. It isn't. It's a pistol with a stock. Only the ATF would call this a SBR. There's not a longer barrel, it isn't an intermediate cartridge like .223 or 7.62x39, it's simply and only a pistol with a 5" or less barrel with a stock attached to it. (and again, a bunch of pointless, goofy rails)

You'd be dead wrong if you think you can shoot as fast, as accurately, and as far with a pistol than you can a 9mm SBRI do not believe in any way that this is going to increase my shooting speed or accuracy to any measure worth the bother. Especially considering we're talking about a very mildly recoiling 9mm. I know this for a fact, so I'm not dead wrong at all. I own a 9mm PCC, and I assure you, there is no difference in speed or accuracy that would make any difference whatsoever in defensive use of this gadget.
And why would this have any difference in how far I can shoot? There isn't a longer barrel, there isn't an increase in velocity. At least with my PPC, there's a 16" barrel.


Unnecessarily expensive? If you look at the other chassis style systems that are becoming available for pistols, this isn't really out of line with those options.
OK, so they are all unnecessarily expensive. $300 and up before the $200 tax stamp. Yeah, that seems reasonable, considering there is not a single benefit to this contraption unless you have some problem controlling a 9mm handgun..

NG VI
August 10, 2012, 07:33 PM
People have carried sub machine guns that are bulkier under a suit coat successfully. I can carry my AK74 with a folding stock concealed under my normal winter jacket.

This device with a folding stock attached would be just as bulky, bulkier probably, than a contemporary small-format submachine gun like the TMP or similarly laid out weapons.

If you are in some sort of organization that doesn't have to follow the same rules private U.S. citizens do, and you have space to conceal this thing, you almost certainly have space to carry something like one of the many AR-platform options with short barrels, or a purpose-built machine pistol with a telescoping stock, or anything else you please that costs half what this would while delivering more practical value.

It's neat, and stocked pistols were always something I thought had a lot of old-school gadgety cool factor to them, but to take the position that this is anything but a toy for people with plenty of loot is a mistake. If you want it for practical purposes, there are literally hundreds of other weapons and products out there that will serve you better for less money, without entrapping your pistol in a cage that prevents you from reasonably carrying and concealing it like you could before you rigged it up.

NG VI
August 10, 2012, 07:35 PM
KC Shooter don't forget another couple hundred for the stock itself.

$2500 for a pistol with elephantiasis and a stock doesn't really seem worth it to me.

Even if it lets you attach an AN/PEQ and an ACOG.

Formula94
August 10, 2012, 08:45 PM
looks like they put a 40mm grenade launcher on it backwards

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 11, 2012, 03:08 AM
Perhaps, but I'm not going to carry a handgun with a stock for personal protection. I'm accurate enough with my handguns without a stock at a logical defensive range. The only time I can see you wanting to get more accurate range out of handgun caliber weapon is in a tactical LE or military application and there are plenty of better choices out there than the ACP. As a civilian carrying for personal protection the ACP is completely impractical. As a LE or military person the ACP is completely impractical because it's changing the purpose of your sidearm (which is meant to be your sidearm) and making it more unreliable. In a LE or military application the ACP serves no function because there are more reliable options out there, for example the MP5, UMP, P90 or even a freakin' Uzi for that matter!

I see it more for Police on a budget than everyday Joe.

This device with a folding stock attached would be just as bulky, bulkier probably, than a contemporary small-format submachine gun like the TMP or similarly laid out weapons.

With less of the cost.

If you are in some sort of organization that doesn't have to follow the same rules private U.S. citizens do, and you have space to conceal this thing, you almost certainly have space to carry something like one of the many AR-platform options with short barrels, or a purpose-built machine pistol with a telescoping stock, or anything else you please that costs half what this would while delivering more practical value.

You seriously think that something that that is 15 inches long, 5 inches, and 24 ounces tall is just as portable as something that is around 23 inches long, around 8 inches tall, and 5.5 pounds. It only has a $400 MSRP and fits whatever pistol the Officer already carries. Not many Sub Machinegun style weapons are out there for $400.

KC Shooter don't forget another couple hundred for the stock itself.

$2500 for a pistol with elephantiasis and a stock doesn't really seem worth it to me.

Even if it lets you attach an AN/PEQ and an ACOG.

Um what? It fits a railed fullsize pistol you already own, costs $400 MSRP ACP with a stock and another $200 to register the pistol. What do you get the other $1,900 from?

spider 69
August 11, 2012, 08:40 PM
This thing's not for me, but for information purposes only:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAA-RONI-Glock-20-21-10mm-45ACP-Pistol-Carbine-PDW-Conversion-Kit-NEW-/330767083021?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0341260d

Dr.Rob
August 11, 2012, 08:57 PM
On Ebay? that's a trip to club fed.

My guess is this will be seen in an upcoming sci fi feature soon.

Beyond that? Yawn.

kcshooter
August 11, 2012, 09:35 PM
On Ebay?Wow. Just, wow.
I wonder how many of these have been bought and used by completely unwitting soon-to-be felons.

I am absolutely stunned that there isn't so much as a mention of tax stamp requirements in this auction.
Does the seller not take on some responsibility here? Or is it all on the buyer?

I mean, WOW!



You seriously think that something that that is 15 inches long, 5 inches, and 24 ounces tall is just as portable as something that is around 23 inches long, around 8 inches tall, and 5.5 pounds.I think that neither would be readily concealable, and that was his point.

NG VI
August 11, 2012, 11:28 PM
$800 for your average Sig pistol.

$360-$400 for the cage.

~$200 for a stock (just guessing based on past offerings, I haven't been in the market for stand-alone subgun/pistol stocks beforez0

$200 for the stamp.

You're right, it's closer to $2000 than it is $2500.

But it's way more than $400, unless your Sig and stamp are free.

Oh and you'll need to buy yourself a new sighting system, since the previously functional ones on the pistol proper are now encased in Picatinny.

The device itself, with nothing else, is lighter, smaller, and cheaper than a machine pistol or short carbine.

Once you add the measurements for the pistol, that the device is kind of useless without, it starts getting awfully identical to the purpose-built weapons it 'competes' with. It's not competition for service pistols, because those are easily and conveniently carried on one's person.

This cannot be easily carried on one's person, not without making the same concessions that would make a carbine or actual submachine gun a more practical (and cheaper) choice.

spider 69
August 11, 2012, 11:53 PM
Take a look at the listing. There is no gun. That's why ebay lets them sell it.

NG VI
August 12, 2012, 12:00 AM
Ebay isn't the issue.

It's the pistol stock accessory that, when possessed while possessing a compatible pistol, regardless of state of assembly, constitutes possession of a short barreled rifle.

If the buyer didn't get the stamp ahead of time, they are now a felon. Even if they never put the two together.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 12, 2012, 02:06 AM
I think that neither would be readily concealable, and that was his point.

I can conceal my AK74 across my chest under my winter jacket, I could conceal this thing much easier.

$800 for your average Sig pistol.

Most railed full sized pistols will fit. Do you down a railed full size pistol already? Does the Police agency issue full size pistols with rails? There you go.

$360-$400 for the cage.

~$200 for a stock (just guessing based on past offerings, I haven't been in the market for stand-alone subgun/pistol stocks beforez0

You can buy the ACP with a stock for $400, where do you get the extra $200?

But it's way more than $400, unless your Sig and stamp are free.

I was talking about in a LE setting where they have no stamp but okay, it's $600 total for it. It's compatible with most pistols that most people that would be looking at this thing already own.

Oh and you'll need to buy yourself a new sighting system, since the previously functional ones on the pistol proper are now encased in Picatinny.

If you look at many sub machineguns and rifles carried by Police and Military, you'll find a nice little red dot sight sitting on top. Doesn't seem like that's an issue.

Rock185
August 12, 2012, 02:59 AM
SIG actually markets that??? Stand aside, once some of the Keyboard/Gunshop Commandos see that, there's going to be a rush, and you don't want to be injured. I wonder about things like that and AR-15, MP-5,.30Carbine, etc. pistols". Some of these designs make sense as SMGs, but they are Not SMGs, just giant, awkward semi-auto pstols. Friend had a Tec-9 "pistol". Total jammamatic and would sometimes fire in just chambering a round. Total trash. I would much rather have a quality pistol, or a carbine, than any of those giant,unwieldy type "pistols"'. An old partner of mine bought a pair of those .30 Carbine "pistols' with pistol grip, no stock, etc. I aked him what they're for. He said, "Survival". ????

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 12, 2012, 03:39 AM
I don't think it will sell that much at all. SIG or not.

kcshooter
August 12, 2012, 10:14 AM
I can conceal my AK74 across my chest under my winter jacketYeah, well, it's August.

fxstchewy
August 12, 2012, 12:12 PM
I would probably get a finger pinched messing with that thing.....

NG VI
August 12, 2012, 01:22 PM
If you look at many sub machineguns and rifles carried by Police and Military, you'll find a nice little red dot sight sitting on top. Doesn't seem like that's an issue.


I didn't say it was difficult to attach a sight system, and it does allow you to use better sights than conventional pistol sights, however, those Aimpoints, Eotechs, and Acogs cost as much as the pistol underneath.

Adds to the cost.

You already own or issue a compatible pistol.

Was it free?

If not, then that is a part of the cost for this as a weapon, regardless of when or who pays it.

You can buy the ACP with a stock for $400, where do you get the extra $200?

I feel like reading the part of my post you quoted will answer your question quite handily. $200 was a guess based on the normal cost of decent quality or gimmicky but properly marketed stocks. I didn't know this device came with a stock as part of the base cost.

If you don't have a stamp before you buy it, maybe you want to buy one and try it out before you commit to creating an SBR like many tend to do with those Draco and AR-15 pistols, then you do have to buy a stock later.

Quote:
I can conceal my AK74 across my chest under my winter jacket, I could conceal this thing much easier.

I think you are intentionally being obtuse here. I also think, just based on your earlier size/weight comparison of the ACP to your rifle, where you conveniently forgot to include the dimensions and weight of anything other than the cage itself, that you aren't thinking through the position you are attaching your name to.

Sure, the ACP alone, or even with a pistol, is smaller and lighter than a carbine or even a TMP. Add a couple of pounds for the pistol, a little more if you go with the alloy framed models. Add some weight and considerable bulk (things that aren't all that bulky get that way with haste as you bolt them to each other) for the red dot up top, unless you go with one of the micro red dots.

Add a TON of bulk for the folding stock that'll about double the width of the thing.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 12, 2012, 04:15 PM
Yeah, well, it's August.

I didn't say I could do it in the summer or that the ACP could be carried in the summer did I?

I didn't say it was difficult to attach a sight system, and it does allow you to use better sights than conventional pistol sights, however, those Aimpoints, Eotechs, and Acogs cost as much as the pistol underneath.

I wasn't making the point that it was easy either. It's the fact that it seems that everyone is able to afford to put a red dot on their weapon. You don't need a $400 sight either.

You already own or issue a compatible pistol.

Was it free?

If not, then that is a part of the cost for this as a weapon, regardless of when or who pays it.

No it wasn't free, but I already own it. I didn't buy my XD to put into something like this but I want to, I can. If you're buying a trailer for a pickup truck, do you think that it's expensive because it requires a truck despite you already owning a truck or do you just look at the cost of the trailer?

I think you are intentionally being obtuse here. I also think, just based on your earlier size/weight comparison of the ACP to your rifle, where you conveniently forgot to include the dimensions and weight of anything other than the cage itself, that you aren't thinking through the position you are attaching your name to.


I just went by what SIG had on the website, didn't consider that it may have been just the ACP without a pistol. Point still stands though.

Add a TON of bulk for the folding stock that'll about double the width of the thing.

Since when do wirefolding stocks double the size of something? Have you seen how thin it is?

boricua9mm
August 12, 2012, 05:46 PM
I understand just fine, thank you. You seem to have trouble comprehending this, however.
There is no reason to refer to this as a SBR. It isn't. It's a pistol with a stock. Only the ATF would call this a SBR. There's not a longer barrel, it isn't an intermediate cartridge like .223 or 7.62x39, it's simply and only a pistol with a 5" or less barrel with a stock attached to it. (and again, a bunch of pointless, goofy rails)

Clearly, you don't understand the NFA process or how these projects actually precipitate. SIG isn't selling these as complete factory SBRs. They are selling it as a chassis system. They sell it without a stock so you are not in violation for owning it in conjunction with a compatible pistol. You buy it, fill out a Form 1 to make an SBR out of your pistol, take care of any necessary engraving, wait a while and then proceed with adding the pistol to this chassis to make an SBR. That is how people make SBRs. This is exactly what people have been doing for decades with SP89s, UZIs, AR Pistols, AK pistols, HK clones, etc. We call that a clue. They sell a product in a seemingly senseless, legalized format for those of us who have the ambition to make them NFA items and realize their true potential. That's what you guys aren't understanding.

I do not believe in any way that this is going to increase my shooting speed or accuracy to any measure worth the bother. Especially considering we're talking about a very mildly recoiling 9mm. I know this for a fact, so I'm not dead wrong at all. I own a 9mm PCC, and I assure you, there is no difference in speed or accuracy that would make any difference whatsoever in defensive use of this gadget.
And why would this have any difference in how far I can shoot? There isn't a longer barrel, there isn't an increase in velocity. At least with my PPC, there's a 16" barrel.

Do you have any experience whatsoever shooting pistol caliber SBR at torso sized targets at rapid speeds at distances out to 100 yards? I've personally had lots of fun demonstrating this to folks who, like you, thought their pistol was just as effective at engaging targets as a pistol caliber SBR. At 25 yards the SBR smokes the pistol under a timer. By the time you work your way out to 100 yards, there is no contest left to speak of. A 9mm can deliver many more rounds on target at a faster speed when the distance is larger than the inside of a phone booth.

Your 16" PCC referenced is neither fish nor fowl. They are as big and heavy as a rifle without the benefits of a more potent cartridge. In addition, a 16" barrel is not the sweet spot for most pistol calibers. In fact, the sweet spot for velocity gains is usually in the realm of 9-10 inches. Properly done, SBRs are handier, lighter and faster into action than their Title 1 wanna-be cousins. The all important shoulder stock aspect adds much more physical stability as well as visual stability in the sight picture. That is what makes them more effective defensive or offensive tools than a traditional handgun.

Frankly, I could care less about products like the ACP or the Glock stock systems. My MP5 clone SBR takes care of anything I need a small shoulder-fired 9mm to do. However, I do understand what the market is for these things. Some of you likely never will be able to grasp it, and that's fine too.

kcshooter
August 12, 2012, 07:29 PM
They are as big and heavy as a rifle without the benefits of a more potent cartridgeNo. It's less than 4lbs actually, and your example here doesn't have the intermediate cartridge benefit either. Money out the window.
In addition, a 16" barrel is not the sweet spot for most pistol calibers. In fact, the sweet spot for velocity gains is usually in the realm of 9-10 inches.Again, not a benefit of this platform. This is a 5 inch or under barreled handgun. Money out the window.
A 9mm performs a heck of a lot better out of a 16" barrel than a 5" barrel. Sure, 10" may be best (don't know if I believe that), but for $200 extra (for nothing, btw). At 25 yards the SBR smokes the pistol under a timerSmokes? From ready position? Not hardly.
As for the hundred yards question, that's what rifles are for. By rifles, I'm talking about a platform that shoots a rifle cartridge.

And once again, the only people that would think of this as a SBR is the ATF (and you apparently).
Everyone knows it's nothing more than a pistol with a stock, and a bunch of goofy, pointless rails.

I understand the regulations just fine, thank you. That isn't the question here. The question is why you keep calling this a rifle, when it clearly is not. Do you understand firearms?

Who pays a tax stamp for a handgun??

I find this conversation to be almost as pointless as this platform.

spider 69
August 12, 2012, 09:25 PM
"NG VI

Ebay isn't the issue.

It's the pistol stock accessory that, when possessed while possessing a compatible pistol, regardless of state of assembly, constitutes possession of a short barreled rifle.

If the buyer didn't get the stamp ahead of time, they are now a felon. Even if they never put the two together."


Thanks for this.

nwilliams
August 12, 2012, 10:05 PM
At 25 yards the SBR smokes the pistol under a timer

I would love to see someone with a handgun mounted in an ACP in a side by side competition with someone with the same handgun without an ACP. I would wager that the person without the ACP on their handgun will be faster to draw and aim, faster to reload and faster to clear a malfunction. I would also wager that your average skilled handgun shooter will be just as accurate without an ACP added to their handgun as someone with an ACP even with a stock attached.

TennJed
August 13, 2012, 12:09 AM
I would love to see someone with a handgun mounted in an ACP in a side by side competition with someone with the same handgun without an ACP. I would wager that the person without the ACP on their handgun will be faster to draw and aim, faster to reload and faster to clear a malfunction. I would also wager that your average skilled handgun shooter will be just as accurate without an ACP added to their handgun as someone with an ACP even with a stock attached.
I completely agree

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 13, 2012, 01:37 AM
It's the pistol stock accessory that, when possessed while possessing a compatible pistol, regardless of state of assembly, constitutes possession of a short barreled rifle.

If the buyer didn't get the stamp ahead of time, they are now a felon. Even if they never put the two together."

That's not the case. I would have to do some digging to find it but there was one case of a guy arrested on unrelated charges. In his car he had a double barrel shotgun that was broken down. The barrels were sawn-off under legal lengths but he wasn't charged for it because it wasn't assembled. I imagine that these kits can also be used with Airsoft guns.

boricua9mm
August 16, 2012, 09:24 AM
No. It's less than 4lbs actually, and your example here doesn't have the intermediate cartridge benefit either. Money out the window.

So what, exactly, is this marvelous 16" PCC that you are using as the basis for your argument here? Ambiguity isn't helping you at all.

Again, not a benefit of this platform. This is a 5 inch or under barreled handgun. Money out the window.
A 9mm performs a heck of a lot better out of a 16" barrel than a 5" barrel. Sure, 10" may be best (don't know if I believe that), but for $200 extra (for nothing, btw).

I never said it was a benefit of the ACP setup, but rather that your beloved 16" PCC is not offering you significantly better ballistics as you seem to believe. http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/

Smokes? From ready position? Not hardly.

Yes, it is faster, period. Starting at a low ready position with a buttstock tucked into your shoulder immediately yields a nice, steady sight picture, which is what helps put rounds on target. It also helps tremendously with recoil management and follow-up shots. If this were not the case, we would see Glock 18s winning all the subgun competitions. We don't.

And once again, the only people that would think of this as a SBR is the ATF (and you apparently).
Everyone knows it's nothing more than a pistol with a stock, and a bunch of goofy, pointless rails.

You insist on remaining clueless about actual NFA laws that are on the books, as well as the NFA market for which this product is intended. You must be completely baffled by the continued interest in MP5 pistols, AR pistols, AK pistols, DSA TP9s, etc. Those who have dabbled in the NFA game actually get it. The ATF doesn't consider a firearm an SBR unless it has a barrel of less than 16 inches AND a buttstock. Owning the ACP chassis and a SIG pistol does not make it an SBR unless there is a buttstock attached OR the chassis, pistol and buttstock are owned in the same vicinity (see Constructive Intent laws). However, that does nothing to change the fact that the market is for people who will buy this are doing so with the intention of filing a Form 1 and making an SBR.

I understand the regulations just fine, thank you. That isn't the question here. The question is why you keep calling this a rifle, when it clearly is not. Do you understand firearms?

From your insistence that ATF considers the ACP, as a chassis, an SBR clearly communicates that your mind is cloudy with regards to NFA regs. From your continued neglect of the NFA market for which this product is a prime example, that notion seems to be solidified.

Who pays a tax stamp for a handgun??

Boatloads of people have filed Form 1s to have pistols turned into SBRs. I've seen more than a few people at local ranges shooting Glock SBRs in various renditions. Apparently the answer is many people.

Pointless without a buttstock, sure, but that's not the main reason why SIG is selling this. To date they've offered factory 556 SBRs as well as 556Ps (pistols) for those who want to file a Form 1 and make their own SBR. They are no stranger to the NFA market, and the fact that this offering is available to civilians is the proof in the pudding.

kcshooter
August 16, 2012, 09:30 AM
So what, exactly, is this marvelous 16" PCC that you are using as the basis for your argument here? Ambiguity isn't helping you at all.Keltec sub2000, exactly 4.0lbs. It wasn't ambiguous, it just didn't matter.


Meh.
Nothing else you've written is worth responding to again. Your repetition isn't helping you at all.

Fishbed77
August 16, 2012, 06:36 PM
In the case of BSG, they had their technology based around fighting machines, and should have had weapons better designed for that task.


The funny thing is that early in the series, nothing short of a direct hit from an "armor-piercing grenade" would kill the Cylon Centurians. Later on, though, a single round or two from their FN FiveseveNs or Beretta CX4s would do the trick just fine...

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