Bullets


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Combat-wombat
February 24, 2004, 09:55 PM
You may have seen my earlier thread about my school science project...
Now I need a little info on bullets, particularly JHPs. What is their history? When did they come into use? How, specifically, do they work? I tried looking all this up on the internet, but all I got was crap about different sports teams. Can anyone help?

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P95Carry
February 24, 2004, 10:01 PM
I'm not the historian around here! But ... leaving aside the developmental timeline ... the ''ideal'' JHP is a bullet which when it strikes fluid bearing medium (tissue) ... it's cavity is hydraulically expanded and spread ... usually it is hoped, into the classic ''petal'' shape. Which gives something like an effective +50% cal increase but hopefully too, weight retention.

''Plugging'' the hollow tho as we know can prejudice expansion (clothing) .. and velocity also is critical for expansion to even be possible. Cor-Bon's ''Powrball (sp?) is an attempt to solve that problem....... penetrate first and feed well, but then ''blossom''.

I should add also ... what is probably obvious ... if expansion is achieved then damage is maximized! A better chance for the elusive (even mythical? :p ) ''one shot stop''!:p

azrael
February 24, 2004, 10:11 PM
you could prolly start your JHP research from the Miami Massacre till today...It is one of the singular incedents that sparked the wave of "designer" bullets that we have to this day.

c_yeager
February 24, 2004, 10:13 PM
You could also go into some of the stories about soldiers cutting "x"s into the tips of their lead bullets to promote expansion. I think these were reffered to as "dum-dum"s for one reason or another. Be carefull to separate fact from fiction on this though cause it seems there is a lot of urban legend floating around about this.

ceetee
February 24, 2004, 10:24 PM
I thought that "dum-dum" bullets came from an arsenal of the same name in India when (during the British occupation) they were too cash-strapped to be able to afford to put a copper jacket around the entire bullet... (?)



This from rec.guns (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VI.backup.html)



For handguns, the hollowpoint bullet has become the leader in defensive ammunition. Early (1st generation) hollowpoint bullets were just lead slugs with a hole in them. They had problems feeding in autoloaders, didn't provide reliable expansion, and were not highly regarded. Newer (2nd generation) hollowpoints were designed out of softer materials, have smaller cavities to encourage feeding in autoloaders, and were somewhat more reliable at velocities above 1100 feet per second. The newest selection o f hollowpoints (3rd generation) are designed to be capable of expansion below the older thresholds by using a variety of features. For instance, the Federal Hydra-Shok has a post in the center of the hollow which keeps the cavity from becoming plugged. The ill-starred Black Talon, recently reintroduced as the SXT, used a combination of a hard jacket, soft core, and a sump drilled in the bottom of the cavity to release pressure and force expansion. Other designs, like the Federal Golden Sabre, the PMC Starfire, and the CCI Lawman/Gold Dot, make use of designs tailored to handgun velocities to assure performance.

There have been some claims that certain hollowpoints are "killer bullets", that they can "slice through police armor." The "armor-slicing" characteristics can be easily dismissed; the soft, expanding nature of these rounds actually makes them less likely to penetrate any kind of body armor, and they don't expand before striking the armor in any case. There are others who feel that hollowpoints do not belong in the hands of citizens who do not face life-or-death confrontations every day. They argue that police, who face violence more often, need these bullets to defend themselves, but that ordinary people don't need them at all. Such rationale has been used to pass laws in places like New Jersey, where possession of hollowpoint ammunition is illegal. Frankly, this implies that possession of these bullets is paramount to intent to kill. In reality, no handgun bullet is designed to kill and none can be expected to do so on demand. What hollowpoint bullets are designed to do is save lives.

This last statement bears elaboration. Hollowpoint bullets are designed to stop an attacker with the least number of shots fired. They are designed to transfer as much of the bullet's energy into impact and shock. Roundnose bullets, which may zip through tissue with minimal disruption may require the defender to shoot his attacker more times in order to get him to stop attacking. The attacker shot with roundnose bullets still bleeds, but he does not feel the same shocking, stopping impact that a hollowpoint bullet produces.

Why does this effect of hollowpoints save lives? First, the sooner an attacker is stopped in his attack, the less likely a defender is to be killed. If a shooting takes 15 seconds to stop an attacker, that could mean the attacker still has time to stab his victim to death or return fire with his own gun. Second, fewer bullets necessary to be fired, and the more of those which stay inside the attacker, present less hazard to bystanders. In an intense situation, not every bullet will hit the intended target, and of those that do, roundnosed bullets are more likely to travel through an attacker with enough energy left over to kill a bystander. Third, one or two hollowpoints used to stop an attack means an attacker with two to four holes to stop bleed ing and repair. Four or five roundnose bullets are likely to mean six to ten holes, each leaking blood out and air in. Hollowpoint bullets are more likely to result in a live attacker after surgery. This has been documented by several police departments who switched from standard roundnose lead ammo to higher- powered hollowpoints. Their results: fewer dead cops, fewer dead crooks, and fewer dead bystanders, including fellow cops.

It is your life on the line; police use these bullets because they are effective at stopping perpetrators, and you should too. Realize that any bullet can kill, and any time you point a gun at someone your intent is to stop, but the possibility of killing exists. Whether you are in one gunfight or twenty, you want the best chances that you can reasonably obtain. If you are concerned about liability from using "killer bullets" then select the same brand that the local police force uses. This way you can always point out that you were just using what the police consider best.

Renegade
February 24, 2004, 10:47 PM
I always thought Remington made the Golden Sabre...learn somthing new everyday.

Later,

Dave

Treylis
February 24, 2004, 11:08 PM
I'm pretty sure that Remington does make Golden Sabres, and the FAQ is inaccurate on the nomenclature.

Combat-wombat
February 24, 2004, 11:09 PM
Remmy does make the Golden Sabre, it was probably just a mess up.
http://www.remington.com/ammo/pistol_revolver/goldnsaber.htm

Mikul
February 25, 2004, 01:19 AM
Most hollowpoints have an exposed lead hollow cavity at the nose with a copper jacket that covers the bottom. The lead is soft so that when fluid matter (aka body parts) fills the cavity at high speed, it flows outward and expands. The jacket controls the expansion and keeps the lead from blowing to pieces.

Incidentally, the reason the lead base isn't exposed as the nose is because the force on the base of the lead can push the lead right out of the jacket and leave the jacket stuck in the barrel.

Now there are alternatives like the Pow-R-Ball, Federal EFMJ, and Taurus Hex bullet.

Mikul
February 25, 2004, 01:37 AM
Ooops

twoblink
February 25, 2004, 02:31 AM
I can tell you from physics class that hollow points fly a straighter path and are a bit more stable than regular bullets...

It was a test question in our physics class way back when..

Because the stability of the bullet in flight largly depends on the spin around the axis, with a hollow point having most of the mass is distributed further away from the axis, giving it a more stable rotation. This leads to accuracy and stability of bullet flight.

ceetee
February 25, 2004, 09:16 AM
That's a neat thing to know. And when you think about it, it really makes sense. I've wondered for a while now why a lot of "match" bullets are HP, or polymer-tipped... I mean, why would you need a HP to punch paper?

Thanks!

Archie
February 25, 2004, 12:24 PM
He was the gentleman who started the original "Super-Vel" company, using light(er) bullets and high(er) velocities. This was in the mid to late '60s.

Hollowpoints go back further than that. Some form of expanding bullets in rifles go back to the "Hoxie" bullet of the 1920s and '30s.

Forster Company used to make (still makes?) a devise that drills out a hollowpoint in lead bullets of loaded rounds. That devise has been around since the '60s and quite possibly before.

Elmer Keith mentioned hollowpoints in some of his writings. He didn't think they worked very well and was rather dismissive of them. This was during the '30s; I'm sure the HP technology was primitive. He found a wide flat front on a bullet was a better killer of game than HP. Check out "Sixguns by Keith" and his work on rifles and hunting.

"Dum-dum" bullets were made in the Dum-dum arsenal in India, during the days of the Raj. The name was co-opted for any form of expanding bullet, especially those done by "field expedient", like cutting off the nose and such.

Ceetee, rifle match hollowpoints are not expanders. They are drawn from the base up and the tip is left open because it's easier to get balanced bullets that way. They are hollowpoints, but not for expansion.

grnzbra
February 25, 2004, 02:04 PM
Just to add two more little variations to your mix, I would like to bring up Federal's Expanding Full Metal Jacket (or some kind of name like that) which is a flat pointed, full metal jacket with a lead core that doesn't reach all the way to the nose of the bullet. The forward void is filled with some kind of spongy stuff and the jacket is scored on the inside. When it hit, the scored area buckles and forms a cross. From the pix at Ammoman.Com (http://www.ammoman.com) , you can see that it expands almost immediately.

Another variation that Cirillo mentions in his book Guns, Bullets and Gunfights (or some arangement of those words) is a hollow point with teeth cut into the edges of the bullet surounding the hollo. It came about due to him and his partner (NYPD) shooting a guy in the head several times with 158gr rnl bullets. The guy went down like a sack of potatos and they two cops called it in requesting the corronor. A few minutes, the guy wakes up complaining of a headache. Apparently, the rnl bullets, because they didn't hit exactly the center of his skull, skidded off the edge and merely tore up a lot of skin. The sawtooth bullets were supposed to prevent this from happening. I have seen them advertised for shooting at bowling pins.

daniel (australia)
February 25, 2004, 07:29 PM
Hollow-point bullets date back to at least as far as the 1890s:

The British Army, having replaced the .577/.450 with the .303 from about 1888 found the latter's smallbore jacketed bullet significantly less effective than its predecessor. As a result experiments were carried out in a number of places, notably Dum Dum Arsenal in India, into ways of increasing lethality. Dum Dum came up with a soft point design in about the mid 1890's, which was tested in action in Indian Service.

Not long after this the Mk 3 round was introduced to British service, with a hollow point bullet. This was followed soon after by the similar Mk 4 and Mk 5. The latter was adopted in 1899, but the Hague Convention signed that year specifically banned bullets of these types from warfare (between signatories):

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."


Incidentally, as well as rifle bullets, the British also adopted hollow-point ammunition for the .455 revolver during the 1890s.

swager
February 25, 2004, 08:12 PM
Here you will see a hydra shock and a hybrid(both.45acp). Shot one after the other. Both have bonded lead, but in different degrees. You will notice that the hydra yaws and the wound channel pretty much disappears. At a slower fps and heavier weight, the hybrid has less penetration, but larger permanent wound channel as the powdered tungsten is released. The angle of the point determines the reaction of the material + speed. There are many variables, all have the same intent. http://thor-bullets.com/cropped_gel.jpg

daniel (australia)
February 26, 2004, 12:33 AM
I should add that Metford, among others, was working with hollow-point designs from about the 1860s, particularly after explosive rifle bullets were banned by treaty in 1868. These early hollow points weren't jacketed though, jacketed ammunition being a development of the early 1880s.

Metford used a very deep hollow point, often filled with some light material, and found that among other things the long-range accuracy was markedly improved by the consequent move rearward of the centre of mass.

RangerGrant
February 29, 2004, 09:30 PM
Hi CW,

You might take a look at http://firearmstactical.com

There is alot of material there about ammunition, and it's effectiveness.

Best, RG

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