M1 carbine


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joerowlands
August 14, 2012, 06:11 PM
Does anyone know if my m1 carbine that was made by inland with a serial #6190202 was everissued to troops

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medalguy
August 14, 2012, 06:59 PM
If it's an Inland, it was almost certainly issued at some point. No way to tell who/when it was carried.

Reloadron
August 14, 2012, 07:20 PM
You are sure it is an Inland?

UNDERWOOD ELLIOTT FISHER COMPANY

TOTAL CARBINES PRODUCED: 545,616

SERIAL NUMBER RANGE
1,350,000-1,449,999
2,352,520-2,912,519
4,010,000-4,074,999
6,099,689-6,199,668

It would really be hard to say. Somewhere around here I think I have books by Bruce Canfield that really break down the war baby (M1 Carbine) but am unsure where they are. The problem with researching the M1 Carbine is the rifles as well as parts were made by so many contractors. Your serial number range looks to be Underwood. Then to further complicate things a rifle manufactured by one contractor may have a barrel (or other parts) made by another manufacturer and yet be original. Been years since I was overly interested in them.

Additionally millions of the little rifles were sent to other countries around the globe under a "lend / lease" agreement and later imported back into the US and many more were made available to the US public from US arsenals through the old DCM (Director of Civilian Marksmanship) program now called the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program). Does your rifle have any markings or stampings around the end of the barrel that may be an import stamp?

All in all it is difficult to say if the rifle was issued to troops, let alone US troops. Hopefully another forum member more familiar with and more current on the M1 Carbine will come along with more information than I have to offer up.

Ron

joerowlands
August 14, 2012, 07:52 PM
You are sure it is an Inland?



It would really be hard to say. Somewhere around here I think I have books by Bruce Canfield that really break down the war baby (M1 Carbine) but am unsure where they are. The problem with researching the M1 Carbine is the rifles as well as parts were made by so many contractors. Your serial number range looks to be Underwood. Then to further complicate things a rifle manufactured by one contractor may have a barrel (or other parts) made by another manufacturer and yet be original. Been years since I was overly interested in them.

Additionally millions of the little rifles were sent to other countries around the globe under a "lend / lease" agreement and later imported back into the US and many more were made available to the US public from US arsenals through the old DCM (Director of Civilian Marksmanship) program now called the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program). Does your rifle have any markings or stampings around the end of the barrel that may be an import stamp?

All in all it is difficult to say if the rifle was issued to troops, let alone US troops. Hopefully another forum member more familiar with and more current on the M1 Carbine will come along with more information than I have to offer up.

Ron
R on it is an inland and in ideal shape, looks like it was never shot let alone issued out. I'm just curious, it's driving me nuts. Thank you, if you hear of anything please keep me in mind. Thank you.

joerowlands
August 14, 2012, 07:53 PM
If it's an Inland, it was almost certainly issued at some point. No way to tell who/when it was carried.
Thank you, but some one has to know.

joerowlands
August 14, 2012, 07:57 PM
If it's an Inland, it was almost certainly issued at some point. No way to tell who/when it was carried.
It was made in Feb of 45. maybe it wasn,t issued out.

scaatylobo
August 14, 2012, 08:06 PM
R on it is an inland and in ideal shape, looks like it was never shot let alone issued out. I'm just curious, it's driving me nuts. Thank you, if you hear of anything please keep me in mind. Thank you."

I have seen arsenal do overs [ very recently ] that looked brand new and unfired [ in fact it was not fired after redo].

I regret not buying it for a shooter,have one already and enjoy shooting them.

I would find it hard to believe it never saw action in Korea or Nam.

Jim Watson
August 14, 2012, 08:08 PM
There was a little thing known as the Korean War a few years after that. It probably got used.

The US Army did not then keep individual records of the issue of smallarms.

You could show pictures and we could discuss its history based on its configuration.

content
August 14, 2012, 08:13 PM
Hello friends and neighbors// Does it have an O.G. stamped on the stock?

Or any other "cartouche" stampings on the stock?

joerowlands
August 14, 2012, 09:20 PM
Hello friends and neighbors// Does it have an O.G. stamped on the stock?

Or any other "cartouche" stampings on the stock?
There is the letter P stamped in the space where the sling is, that's all I can see.

Jim K
August 14, 2012, 10:36 PM
"Someone has to know."

Well, no. Weapons issue cards and unit inventory documents were "ephemera" which is a fancy way of saying they were tossed out when they were obsolete, when the soldier transferred or the unit disbanded. Weapons (with the exception of General Officers' pistols) were not the property of the soldier, they were the property of the unit, usually the company. Even records of which unit a weapon was issued to weren't kept; each unit was responsible for keeping track of its weapons. All higher headquarters would know was that a unit had x number of carbines, not what numbers they were or to whom they were issued.

Jim

Clermont
August 15, 2012, 07:05 AM
If the only marking on your stock is a P in the sling well, the stock has been refinished, the crossed cannons, on the butt's right side, and the P proof mark, on the bottom of the pistol grip, having been sanded away. The marking in the sling well indicates the stock's manufacturer and, I believe, there should be a second letter with the P. Most likely, your entire M1 carbine has been refinished.

joerowlands
August 15, 2012, 08:14 AM
If the only marking on your stock is a P in the sling well, the stock has been refinished, the crossed cannons, on the butt's right side, and the P proof mark, on the bottom of the pistol grip, having been sanded away. The marking in the sling well indicates the stock's manufacturer and, I believe, there should be a second letter with the P. Most likely, your entire M1 carbine has been refinished.
Thank you.does that take away from the value? It has RIA behind the receiver!

Clermont
August 15, 2012, 08:53 AM
RIA, Rock Island Arsenal, most likely is the facility where your M1 carbine was overhauled. Any military firearm that's been refinished, at one of the military arsenals, is worth less than a military firearm that has all it's original, correct, parts and markings. A used, original, military firearm is worth considerably more than a new looking, overhauled, one.

Clermont
August 15, 2012, 02:39 PM
Does anyone know if my m1 carbine that was made by inland with a serial #6190202 was everissued to troops
I doubt, according to the serial number you posted, your M1 carbine was manufactured by Inland. The serial number indicates Underwood manufacture. Re-check the serial number and the manufacturer which will be seen on the heel of the receiver, above the serial number which may be obscured by the adjustable rear sight. Something isn't correct, either the serial number or the manufacturer.

Reloadron
August 15, 2012, 05:54 PM
I doubt, according to the serial number you posted, your M1 carbine was manufactured by Inland. The serial number indicates Underwood manufacture. Re-check the serial number and the manufacturer which will be seen on the heel of the receiver, above the serial number which may be obscured by the adjustable rear sight. Something isn't correct, either the serial number or the manufacturer.
I agree as I posted the Underwood serial number blocks in post #3. I don't get it. The serial number runs with a block assigned to Underwood and not Inland. The serial number and manufacturer should match up. Also, based on the serial number your rifle likely has the stamped adjustable sight. This sight base will cover and obscure the manufacturer in most cases. Possibly could the U in Underwood maybe look like an I for Inland idf you only see the first part of the letter U? They can be very difficult to read.

Ron

content
August 15, 2012, 06:35 PM
^^^My serial #info concurs with the above two posts ,something is not right.

joerowlands
August 16, 2012, 07:27 AM
Ron, it is an inland div made m1, stamped behind the sights.

Clermont
August 16, 2012, 07:44 AM
Ron, it is an inland div made m1, stamped behind the sights.
Is the serial number on your M1 carbine the same as in your original post?

Reloadron
August 16, 2012, 08:42 AM
Ron, it is an inland div made m1, stamped behind the sights.
The problem is when the M1 Carbines were manufactured they were built by several companies. Manufacturers were assigned serial number "blocks".

The serial number you posted, serial #6190202 was not an Inland assigned serial number but was assigned to Underwood as mentioned. I covered the Underwood serial number blocks in post #3. Here is an example of the Inland and Underwood assigned numbers:

INLAND MANUFACTURING

TOTAL CARBINES PRODUCED; 2,632,097

SERIAL NUMBER RANGE
1-5
11-30
31-99
0001--1700 (T3)
00001-00900 (T3)
000001-000500 (T4)
100-699,999
700,000-940,000 Note:includes subcontractors
940,0001-999,999
2,912,520-3,152,519
3,152,520-3,212,519 Note includes subcontractors
4,879,526-5,549,821
6,219,689-6,449,867
6,664,884-7,234,883
7,369,661-8,069,660

UNDERWOOD ELLIOTT FISHER COMPANY

TOTAL CARBINES PRODUCED: 545,616

SERIAL NUMBER RANGE
1,350,000-1,449,999
2,352,520-2,912,519
4,010,000-4,074,999
6,099,689-6,199,668

Your serial #6190202 reflects being manufactured by Underwood. Beyond that I really do not know what to say.

Ron

powell&hyde
August 16, 2012, 12:12 PM
I also looked up the serials and it also states that this was an Underwood build. Is it possible to get some photos of the markings?

joerowlands
August 16, 2012, 07:29 PM
Is the serial number on your M1 carbine the same as in your original post?
I believe it is, here it is again 6910202. Maybe I made a mistake. It looks like the one labeled War Baby, just like it.

joerowlands
August 16, 2012, 07:32 PM
Sorry looking back, I think I put the wrong #'s in. I'm a dummy sometimes.

Reloadron
August 16, 2012, 08:39 PM
Sorry looking back, I think I put the wrong #'s in. I'm a dummy sometimes.
:)

Now it makes sense. If you look back at my post #20 you will see where it fits into the scheme of serial numbers. Amazing what transposing a few digits can do huh?

All of the data in the rest of the thread holds true as to issued and where the rifle may have been. They are great little rifles so just enjoy it.

Ron

cfullgraf
August 17, 2012, 07:48 AM
Sorry looking back, I think I put the wrong #'s in. I'm a dummy sometimes.

Your carbine probably has adjustable sights on it. The sight base hides the manufacturer's name, which should be above the serial number. You can peer around the sight base and see enough of the beginning and ending letters of the manufacturer to be able to know exactly who made the carbine. Except for the two saginaw divisions that made carbines, the names of the other eight contractors are not similar at all.

With the original flip sights, none of the markings were covered by the sight base.

I forget, off hand, when the shift was made to the adjustable sights, but after WWII, most, if not all rebuilt carbines got adjustable sights. Some carbines survived with their original flip sights, but it is many fewer than those with adjustable sights.

An arsenal rebuild is probably not as valuable as an original, but there are precisous few carbines that survived without being rebuilt at least once.

joerowlands
August 17, 2012, 07:55 AM
Thank you. I'm sure it will be worth a lot of bucks one of these days.

molsonxxxtoo
August 21, 2012, 04:00 PM
I just pulled a mint M1 carbine from the cedar chest which included the sling and oiler - the serial # under the rear sight is 1226352 - I can see the letter W under the rear site but not much more. Also the carbine has the # 1A195165 on its side just above the stock directly under the rear sight.

Anyone know anything about this carbine - I purchased it about 30 years ago and never fired it - appears not to be refurbished.

I just unpacked my other carbine - its # is 3860171 - has a marking of "AO" on the receiver and an "H" in a crest on the site - the bolt also has an "X" on it - under the rear sight the last letter (and only one I can make out appears to be a "P") .

Can anyone steer me in a direction to find something out about these particular carbines.


Thanks

Molson

Reloadron
August 21, 2012, 06:28 PM
First one should be an early Winchester in the 1,000,000 to 1,349,000 serial number range block. That also explains the W. :)

The second one should be IBM in the 3,651,520 to 4,009,999 serial number block. The original barrels were marked IBM with some dated. The receiver should be marked IBM. I am not sure about the other markings on the latter. The info I provided assumes a GI carbine.

Auto Ordnance did manufacture after market versions which could be the AO if the latter rifle is not original GI. Does it have a flat bolt and folder and sans a bayonet lug?

Ron

molsonxxxtoo
August 21, 2012, 10:20 PM
Thanks Ron,

The carbine has bayonet lug and a round bolt - I think it might have had a government refurb at some point as the carbine looks like it has never been carried. It was a direct government surplus purchase. The carbine is absolutely mint less the butt plate which was not on the carbine at time of my purchase around 30 years ago. (a little finish worn off the bolt so its been fired a bit)


I'm going shooting at the Grand River range down the road from you in the morning and might take it.

I have a few hundred rounds left over from back in the day - man is ammo expensive for that unit now!

Reloadron
August 22, 2012, 05:04 AM
So you are going shooting in Grand River and I am going to work in Euclid. We should trade! :)

Hope you have a nice day of shooting. Yeah, that lil' .30 carbine ammunition has gone up a tad.

Ron

Clermont
August 22, 2012, 07:09 AM
I just unpacked my other carbine - its # is 3860171 - has a marking of "AO" on the receiver and an "H" in a crest on the site - the bolt also has an "X" on it - under the rear sight the last letter (and only one I can make out appears to be a "P").
Your IBM receiver was manufactured, for IBM in WWII, by Auto Ordnance(AO), a sub-contractor for IBM. IBM also manufactured their own receivers but, sometimes, in order to meet production schedules, sub-contractors were needed. Other, prime manufacturers of the M1 carbine used, at times, sub-contracters to manufacture receivers and other parts for M1 carbine production. Both your IBM and Winchester M1 carbines were refinished at some time. Your early Winchester originally had the "flip up" rear site which allowed WINCHESTER, on the barrel, to be completely seen. When it was overhauled, the later adjustable rear sight was installed, which is what is on your carbine now. If either of the stocks, on your IBM or Winchester carbines, lack the stamped crossed cannons on the right or the circled P beneath the pistol grip, it's more evidence of being refinished.

Carl N. Brown
August 22, 2012, 07:47 AM
I suspect that well over half of all carbines that still exist from WWII manufacture were rebuilt, refinished or at least had the flip "L" sights, plain barrel band, pushbutton safety, and two nib magazine catch upgraded to the adjustable sight, band with bayo lug, flip safety and three nib catch. What is a real disappointment for some is that Inlands originally issued with M1A1 folding stocks were often "upgraded" to standard M1 or M2 fixed stocks.

I have an IBM which is one of the "Blue Sky" Korean re-imports from the late 1980s and I consider it an example of the Korean War/VietNam War issue carbines and have resisted (so far) the temptation of searching gun shows and the internet for "correct" parts to restore it to as-issued. ADDED: as-issued for 1943.

molsonxxxtoo
August 22, 2012, 08:00 AM
Thanks to all - I was lucky to find this site and the knowledgeable guys on it - now I know some of the history of my carbines.

Do any of you folks know if the Winchester M1A1's were issued with folding stocks?

Clermont
August 22, 2012, 08:16 AM
If I could find a gun show GI folder I'd change over the Winchester. I'm thinking the probability of an original GI folder (which I don't know if it was marked by Winchester somehow is probably low).
Only Inland originally produced M1A1 carbines with the folding, or paratrooper stock. There were two production runs of M1A1 carbines using early type I and later type II stocks, so a certain range of Inland serial numbers would be correct for the type I stock and a later range of Inland serial numbers would be correct for the type II stock. Any Inland serial numbers outside both ranges would be incorrect for a M1A1 carbine. And, an original M1A1 carbine stock, by itself, is worth more than a standard Inland M1 carbine. Be careful, there are a lot of repro M1A1 stocks, out there, being sold as original USGI. You have to know what to look for.

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