Honor system (do the test before poll) thread to settle Glock grip


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bds
August 15, 2012, 10:40 AM
NOTE: Before you answer the poll, please do the following test!

Since this is the "High Road" forum, I am using the honor system and trusting that each member will do the test before answering the poll question. ;)

- If you do not currently own a Glock, please do not answer the poll.
- If you have different size Glocks (Full, Compact, Subcompact), please use the largest grip model.


Here's the test:

1. Check and clear the pistol.
2. Identify a light switch on the wall (longer distance the better).
3. Close your eyes.
4. Without hesitation, point towards the light switch and HOLD your hand/grip.
5. Open your eyes and check the sights.

Poll question: Were the sights right on the light switch or was the front sight higher than the rear sight?

Remember, I am trusting that each Glock owner do this so we can settle the Glock grip angle issue fair and objectively.

For those that depend on Glocks for SD/HD, you may want to do this test at the range to find out true/natural point of aim in case you need to shoot in low-light conditions where you can't see the sights.

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powder
August 15, 2012, 11:05 AM
What is the "grip angle" issue, to be seen here?

chicharrones
August 15, 2012, 11:27 AM
The front sight was higher than rear sight by 1/2 of height of the front sight. Which is something like a couple millimeters. At 7 yards, the light switch plate was still going to be hit.

ugaarguy
August 15, 2012, 11:55 AM
I don't own a Glock because I've done this test and the front sight is always higher than the rear when I do. It's much more of an issue the larger the model / frame size.

HorseSoldier
August 15, 2012, 01:05 PM
When I was intensively (and exclusively) shooting Glocks in the police academy, this wasn't an issue for me, or if it was it went away after within the first ten hours or so of range time.

At all other points in time, when a Glock was not the primary make of pistol I was shooting it was a slight issue that I did not see switching between other makes/models.

(For the record, I'm not really a Glock fan, but I respect them for being rugged and functional guns. The grip angle is part of what I feel are mediocre ergonomics, but not a show stopper in and of itself for me.)

TxBobS
August 15, 2012, 01:13 PM
Grip angle is personal. Since all humans are different, the height from our eyes to our shoulders is all different. That means that our arms will have to be at different angles to bring the rear sight up to our line of sight. Since our arms will all be at different angles, our wrists will then be and different angles for any given pistol's grip angle.

Pistol X will fit better and worse on various people than pistol Y.

For the record, my Glock sights were in line with my target probably because I shoot it more. My CZ was then low the first time. The 3rd time my CZ was in line.

Skribs
August 15, 2012, 01:46 PM
This poll is going to be a little scewed because you're only polling Glock owners. Glock owners are more likely to find the grip angle natural.

David E
August 15, 2012, 02:01 PM
The front sight was higher than rear sight by 1/2 of height of the front sight. Which is something like a couple millimeters. At 7 yards, the light switch plate was still going to be hit.

Maybe if you live in Gargantuan Land where the switch plate is a foot tall. Everywhere else, that shot will hit above it.

GLOOB
August 15, 2012, 02:35 PM
Flawed test.

For one, it depends on what you're used to... as in what you've been shooting most recently.

Second, if I were TRYING to shoot at point blank range and/or without looking, I wouldn't be using the sights. And I'd therefore be point-shooting. The gun would never come all the way up to my eyeline, cuz I know how my Glocks point-shoot. I pointshoot by imagining a line extending from my shoulder down through the gun.

Also, if I'm using the sights on a Glock, I'm actively lowering my head to get my eye down to the right line, rather than canting the gun down to line the sights up to my eye. If I've been shooting my FN a lot, I may forget to do this during your "light switch test," but in practice, it's not a big issue for me cuz I don't plan to shoot things with my eyes closed.

I agree, there's an adjustment when you switch between grip angles. But adjusting to a gun that points too high is easier than one that points too low. When the front sight is high, you can at least still see it and easily make an adjustment while extending your arms.* A gun that points too low = no front sight. Do no pass go. And it's a strain on the wrist to lift a gun higher than is natural. Had to let my Cougar go, because of this. Hard to keep the sights from shaking.

*Esp when shooting from the "competition style" or "tactical" low ready (i.e. elbows bent, butt of gun at chest), I find the higher pointing Glock quite natural to track and level while extending the gun outwards. Until the very last bit of extension, it is beneficial to keep the front sight higher than the rear so you can always see it.

chicharrones
August 15, 2012, 02:48 PM
Maybe if you live in Gargantuan Land where the switch plate is a foot tall. Everywhere else, that shot will hit above it.

Ah, but I didn't say my front sight was centered on the plate when I opened my eyes. The front sight was at the bottom. Plus, sometimes my front sight was a tad to the left or a tad to the right in the half dozen times I tried it. At 7 yards hitting a light switch plate with closed eyes will be iffy indeed.

Perhaps I need to take this to the range for a live fire test. :scrutiny:

GLOOB
August 15, 2012, 03:04 PM
^^ Bingo. When shooting quickly at close range, I commonly hold way under POA with an elevated front sight. This is a great sight picture for high speed, lower precision shooting. I learned this when I was 8, busting bottles with a BB gun. And it's a sight picture that comes naturally to me with a Glock. Try this with a Cougar, haha.

Alberforth
August 15, 2012, 03:09 PM
There is no 'grip issue' with Glocks.

For most people what feels 'natural' depends on what you are used to.

Back in the 1940s the US Army stated clearly in a training film that the 1911 has an unnatural grip angle and people have to be trained to overcome this and get used to it.

jp3
August 15, 2012, 03:14 PM
Using this test, my Baer 1911 points right on target.
My G 36, not so much.

gunsablazin
August 15, 2012, 03:27 PM
I shoot IDPA, usually with a 1911 in CDP class, but recently I have gone back to the Glock, it's a G35 .40. These pistols point very differently as you know, so when I shoot one or the other I draw and dry-fire daily with my competition gear, so being able to do "blind" draws with either is natural. Getting your body to help "aim" the pistol is a good skill have whether for competition, or self defense.

wildehond
August 15, 2012, 03:48 PM
The sights lined up for me. Though it is the only handgun I shoot.

beatledog7
August 15, 2012, 05:24 PM
I did this strong side only, for fun.

On the first try, very slightly high and a tick left, but that's not a bad thing as I tend to lollipop my sight picture and hit slightly low. I would have hit the light switch center mass (8.5 yards). On the second try, level but still a bit left.

On tries three through six, dead on.

I should point out that I've been shooting other handguns more recently (Buckmark, CZ75, Baby Eagle, another shooter's 1911, Marine Corps-owned M92, and Ruger revolvers), and it's been about two months since I shot the Glock--way too long!

mavracer
August 15, 2012, 05:42 PM
I don't own a Glock but have done this test before and the front sight is always above the rear.

dogtown tom
August 15, 2012, 05:55 PM
The "Glock grip angle" debate is pure malarky.

I shoot 1911's, Hi Powers, Colt Woodsman, Sig 228, and both SA/DA revolvers.........in addition to Glocks.

If you practice with each platform you come to see that only a blind fanboy would use "grip angle" as his excuse to not being able to point "naturally" or to hit what he is aiming.

JohnBT
August 15, 2012, 09:11 PM
"Back in the 1940s the US Army stated clearly in a training film"

That settles that. The government told me so.

9mmepiphany
August 15, 2012, 09:28 PM
The famous combat masters Skyes and Fairbairn, in their book "Shoot To Live" found the same thing when they were training OSS operatives

AK103K
August 15, 2012, 09:50 PM
If you practice with each platform you come to see that only a blind fanboy would use "grip angle" as his excuse to not being able to point "naturally" or to hit what he is aiming.
Its nice to know that some do understand. :)

Noah
August 15, 2012, 11:40 PM
I do this all the time with an airsoft replica Glock. Does that count? :o It is always pointed high, while our P95, PF-9, friend's M&P9 and all our 1911/M&P/Beretta replicas are lined up...

However I'd concur that Glocks "work" for some people, and practice and familiarity would make them point just right for anyone.

TestPilot
August 16, 2012, 01:03 AM
The Glock 22 I was holding actually pointed low.

But, this does not prove anything.

I did the same with an M&P, and it actually pointed more closer to the aim point. If my wrist always sets at the same angle, M&P should have pointed even lower.

TestPilot
August 16, 2012, 01:12 AM
Grip angle issue does exist. But, it's not because Glock's grip angle is "wrong."

It's because if a particular shooter is not biased for Glock's grip angle, they need more time, effort, cost to overcome that issue.

"Training issue" STILL IS AN ISSUE!

Also, in compressed shooting posture, grip angle that has the wrist in more downward biased angle(such as that of a Glock) gives less motion range because wrist tilts toward the little finger more as the hand is brought closer to the torso and more downward biased wrist angle would already used up some of that tilt motion range.

This does not mean Glock cannot be shot in compressed posture, but it can mean increased difficulty with some people.

David E
August 16, 2012, 01:33 AM
The "Glock grip angle" debate is pure malarky.

I shoot 1911's, Hi Powers, Colt Woodsman, Sig 228, and both SA/DA revolvers.........in addition to Glocks.

If you practice with each platform you come to see that only a blind fanboy would use "grip angle" as his excuse to not being able to point "naturally" or to hit what he is aiming.

If you only shoot slowfire, and/or are not highly skilled, then you're right, there is no "issue."

But if you have years of 1911 grip angle, going at speed the Glock will point high, until sufficient time has been invested into the Glock platform to overcome it.

1000's of folks have spent 1000's of dollars altering the Glock grip angle "malarkey," so it IS an issue for 1000's of people....but what do they know?

dogtown tom
August 16, 2012, 02:13 AM
David E Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
The "Glock grip angle" debate is pure malarky.

I shoot 1911's, Hi Powers, Colt Woodsman, Sig 228, and both SA/DA revolvers.........in addition to Glocks.

If you practice with each platform you come to see that only a blind fanboy would use "grip angle" as his excuse to not being able to point "naturally" or to hit what he is aiming.
If you only shoot slowfire, and/or are not highly skilled, then you're right, there is no "issue."

But if you have years of 1911 grip angle, going at speed the Glock will point high, until sufficient time has been invested into the Glock platform to overcome it.
1000's of folks have spent 1000's of dollars altering the Glock grip angle "malarkey," so it IS an issue for 1000's of people....but what do they know?

Thank you for agreeing with me.;)

Inebriated
August 16, 2012, 02:27 AM
I do a lot of drawing practice, so all my Glocks come up with sights in line.

And that, fellas, is the key. Get what you want, and practice. I can't point my Sigs nearly as well because I don't practice much drawing them.

And in my opinion, any firearm that you plan to use in competition or defensive scenarios, you need to practice presentation, along with every other aspect (grip, reload, sight alignment, etc). If you practice presentation, any grip angle issues will work themselves out. And if you're not practicing in all aspects of your firearm handling, then grip angle is the very least of your problems.

GLOOB
August 16, 2012, 02:33 AM
If you only shoot slowfire, and/or are not highly skilled, then you're right, there is no "issue."
Thanks for the laugh!!!!

Rusty Shackleford
August 16, 2012, 02:48 AM
I don't own any Glock shares so it's just a soulless tool to me. Drawing and pointing at the light switch with eyes closed had the sights aligned and aiming at the top right corner of the switch from about 15 feet away.

Don't really care one way or the other personally, just glad that it works for me since it's what I depend on at work. I have had training, and I do practice drawing. If I weren't that familiar with Glocks, it might have been pointing at the ceiling... but it wasn't for me. Use whatever works for you.

toivo
August 16, 2012, 03:11 AM
Mine pointed high. It's a G26. Lately I've been shooting my SIG P239 almost exclusively. I'm sure if I'd been shooting the Glock a lot, I'd probably aim the SIG low in the same test.

And your point is ... ?

Rexster
August 16, 2012, 12:21 PM
3rd-gen Glocks point fine for me. So does my 1911, and SIG P229. There is more to this than just grip angle.

Guns that point "off" for me include at least some earlier Glocks, the P220 with push-button mag release, the P245, and that FN 5.7 pistol, the latter pointing way off. There are others I am not remembering; I don't buy pistols that don't point well for me.

David E
August 16, 2012, 12:50 PM
People that start out with a Glock don't have pointing issues.

People that have decades behind a 1911 typically DO have issues with the gun pointing high.

1000's of the latter group have spent 1000's of dollars to make the Glock point more like a 1911.

Shooting slowfire, one can easily compensate for any grip angle, including the Glock. Most people calling the issue "malarkey" are casual slowfire shooters. The shooters that find there is an issue typically are the faster shooters. They draw and fire a center hit in less than a second. Suddenly, grip angle matters. Of course, they can take an extra 1/4 second to correct the high pointing muzzle, but their first shot is no longer under a second.

If a long time 1911 shooter wants or needs to shoot a stock Glock well at speed, it's likely going to require significant practice and attention.

FMF Doc
August 16, 2012, 03:58 PM
I voted inline...but they are not stock sights, so I don't know if it really counts

powder
August 16, 2012, 05:16 PM
Muscle memory is based on individual experience in training, with which firearms, not per a grip theory. Dry fire away...

chris in va
August 16, 2012, 05:27 PM
This exactly why I sold my 21sf. Having to manually push down the muzzle every time during competition made me realize it just wasn't going to work, being used to the angle of my CZ.

AK103K
August 16, 2012, 06:38 PM
People that start out with a Glock don't have pointing issues.

People that have decades behind a 1911 typically DO have issues with the gun pointing high.

1000's of the latter group have spent 1000's of dollars to make the Glock point more like a 1911.
I started out with 1911's, about 45 years ago. I carried them before they were "cool", and in terms of years, Ive carried one daily more than anything else.

These days I carry a Glock (or two), and the 1911's are basically safe and range queens. After a short transition period, it was no problem at all adjusting to the Glocks. Now its just usually a mags worth of ammo to readjust between them, and I have no troubles at all doing so.

The issue is all in your head, and only if you choose to make it an issue. If you shoot the different platforms, even on an occasional basis, you know its really no big deal. If you cant shoot ANY of them reasonably well, look in the mirror for the true source of the problem, its not the guns fault.

David E
August 16, 2012, 08:05 PM
All in my head, eh? I've won State titles using a 1911 AND Glocks, so I guess I can shoot them both well enough, but it doesn't change a thing I said.

EddieNFL
August 16, 2012, 08:08 PM
Grip angle issue does exist. But, it's not because Glock's grip angle is "wrong."

It's because if a particular shooter is not biased for Glock's grip angle, they need more time, effort, cost to overcome that issue.

Thank you. I can't shoot a Browning Auto 5, either. My NPA has me looking at the back of the receiver.

Could I adapt to the Glock (or Browning)? Sure, but I have no desire or need to do so. I can shoot accurately with pretty much anything...if I'm not in a hurry.

basicblur
August 16, 2012, 08:18 PM
I don't own a Glock because I've done this test and the front sight is always higher than the rear when I do.
My experience mirrors the above poster's.

When I checked out Glocks, they don't point naturally for me.
If this was my only gun, I'd adapt, but since it pointed differently than all my other guns (which all point naturally), I had to ask myself why I would want one oddball in the group, 'specially when it came to point shooting etc?

Would this have been a dealbreaker? Who knows, as I found plenty of other reasons to pass on 'em.

Dnaltrop
August 16, 2012, 08:41 PM
No point in pointing. I don't mind the grip angle, but between the size and flexibility of my hands, It's just a disaster waiting to send me to the hand doctor with a shattered thumb.

31 years of shooting, I joke that I'm too stupid to hold one properly, but it really is just how I was assembled at the factory.

HOOfan_1
August 16, 2012, 08:55 PM
I don't aim with my eyes closed....

Either way the sights lined up for me vertically, but not horizontally. As a poster above stated though, I lower my head when shooting.

I like the feel of my Glock, I like the feel of my FNP, I like the feel of my dad's 1911. I don't particularly like the feel of revolvers...but damn does my Ruger Security Six absolutely school my autoloaders on accuracy...or at least accuracy I can obtain.

leadcounsel
August 17, 2012, 03:06 AM
I pointed my finger with my eyes closed and was off to the right. What's you point? Why are you pointing/shooting with your eyes closed. It would make more sense if the test replicates actual point-shooting, with eyes open.

readyeddy
August 17, 2012, 06:25 AM
My sights were lined up all over the place, including dead on a few times. Seems like closing one's eyes makes it harder to line up.

MyGreenGuns
August 17, 2012, 06:43 AM
I do not OWN a Glock, but voted on your test.

The reason: This EXACT test was what made me stop drinking the Kool-Aid.

I was at the range with several poly-guns. I loaded one round into each and laid them on the table. I picked up each one in turn and fired a "point-shooting" round at the center of the target.

Every single Glock I tried to point-shoot was high. On a B-27 target I was still hitting vital locations, but not where I was looking.

Glocks are good guns, just not my cup-o-tea.

EDIT: I had to add this, as it struck me funny.

If you practice with each platform you come to see that only a blind fanboy would use "grip angle" as his excuse to not being able to point "naturally" or to hit what he is aiming.
If I practice, I can become better at anything. Something coming "naturally" means I didn't need practice to make it work.
And the "fanboys" are the ones saying there is no problem. :)

jmr40
August 17, 2012, 07:45 AM
Back in the 1940s the US Army stated clearly in a training film that the 1911 has an unnatural grip angle and people have to be trained to overcome this and get used to it.

This actually started during WW-1. Soldiers complained about the 1911'a unnatural grip and complained they tended to shoot low. WW-1 era 1911's had flat mainspring housings.

Testing after the war showed that most soldiers shot better when the gun was modified with the arched mainspring housing. A 1911 with the arched housing comes pretty close to a Glock grip.

Going back to the flat housing is a fairly recent development and is more popular with target shooters than combat shooters.

The only people who have an issue with the Glock grip are those with years of experience with "different" grips. If so it takes some time to retrain yourself.

This would have been a more meaningful poll if you had given the test to non-shooters with little of no experience shooting handguns. This has been done in the past and when non-shooters were given a Glock, and another gun with what we consider a more traditional grip the non-shooters shot the Glock better by a wide margin.

Police departments had the same issue when they first changd to Glocks. Our county PD changed in 1994. For the first week or so rookie cops with little training were outshooting the older officers as well as their insructors. Given a couple hundred rounds of practice the older guys caught up and eventually were outshooting the rookies. Our city PD made the change from 5906's to Glocks in March. By now almost all of them already owned personal Glocks, so they had no issues with the change.

For any shooter who wants to try it is a non issue. I own Glocks, Sigs, S&W's, Rugers, and 1911's. In the past there are very few I haven't owned. I can use all of them with no problems.

Smith357
August 18, 2012, 12:04 PM
I don't own a Glock, but I've done this with my K frames, N Frames, BHP, 1911, 220 and my M&P45 and the sights almost never line up to my eye, but when I move my head to look through the sights they are on target 95% of the time. My issue with the Glock is not the angle of the grip but the thickness, I just can't get a decent grip on Glock with my girlie hands.

tomrkba
August 18, 2012, 12:33 PM
Glocks point high for me. 1911's point low. SIG P-Series guns point perfectly.

All three guns work for me because "natural point" has nothing to do with good shooting. Instead of focusing upon how a gun points, shooters should spend the vast majority of their time mastering trigger pull. The remainder is managing the grip and sight picture. Obviously, using the sights overrides any natural point.

If you're point shooting, you have to figure out what horizontal means for that gun. It's not that difficult to adapt between platforms. I go from Glock to 1911 to S&W K-Frame without any problems. Then again, I've put in the time to master all three platforms for sighted and unsighted shooting. This is what 22 caliber conversion kits and 22 caliber revolvers are for!

If you cannot place your finger on the trigger properly, then that gun is not for you. Some people need a 1911 with thin grips and a short trigger! Other folks NEED a giant grip--the old Glock 21 models actually do fit the hands of some people!

RBid
August 18, 2012, 12:51 PM
I didn't vote, because I don't own one. As it happens, I have done this test (even using light switches as reference points) with numerous pistols.

Glocks point high for me.

Hk Dan
August 18, 2012, 02:54 PM
Mine wee right on target and lined up, but I practice this drill a lot. It is a undamental skill or any deensive handgunner, AND the lack of doing it is the primary reason that XS sights are selling any units at all! <g>

hAkron
August 18, 2012, 09:54 PM
I had to 'move my head' into the view of the sights, but when I did they seemed to be right on the switch. Could be that my hands subconsciously adjusted the gun as I moved my head into view, but either way it wasn't that far off.

CZguy
August 18, 2012, 10:16 PM
I just never had that problem with any pistol I own and shoot and yes I have 1911's and Glocks and shoot them equally poor under stress.

:what: What's this........an honest man on the Internet. :D

NMPOPS
August 19, 2012, 01:03 AM
Not all guns have that "perfect" angle of the 1911. I've been shooting mostly Glock pistols and S&W revolvers for the last 20 years. I occasionally shoot 1911 and Sigs and have never had an issue with any point wrong.

As a side note, many claim the 1911 points perfectly but some shoot with the arched mainspring housing and some with the flat. I prefer the arched because it does seem closer to a Glock.

dondavis3
August 19, 2012, 01:42 PM
My sight picture is off when I do as you ask.. with my Glock.

I do not care for the Glock Grip angle (that's why I've sold them all except for 1).

I always have to adjust my grip on a Glock to get it sighted correctly.

:cool:

Esoxchaser
August 19, 2012, 02:01 PM
I tested with a myriad of handguns. The ones that pointed best for me were suprising.
Ruger Mark III Hunter
Springfield EMP
Sig P238
Sig P938

The short guns pointing so well along with that long Ruger was a bit of a suprise....

C0untZer0
August 19, 2012, 05:58 PM
G34 lined up fine

17L - not so much, but it's not because of grip angle it's because it's a longer pistol than my G34 with more mass out front.

easyg
August 19, 2012, 06:13 PM
Tried the test with my G17.
And the sights were aligned and on target.

I also tried it with my Ruger SR9c.
Again, the sights were aligned and on target.

GLOOB
August 19, 2012, 07:58 PM
If people can adjust between pistol and traditional grips and/or vertical foregrips on shotguns and rifles, seems like the difference between a Glock and a 1911 is trivial.

222327
August 19, 2012, 09:25 PM
My front sight was just a tad higher than rear

benzy2
August 19, 2012, 09:39 PM
If I lock my weak hand wrist the sights line up correctly. If I'm soft on my weak hand wrist the front sight starts off high.

CZguy
August 19, 2012, 09:57 PM
If people can adjust between pistol and traditional grips and/or vertical foregrips on shotguns and rifles, seems like the difference between a Glock and a 1911 is trivial.

Well it is......but it's kind of like a cleaning thread. There is no middle ground.

LWise
August 19, 2012, 10:23 PM
I try very hard to not shoot with my eyes closed. If my firearm always pointed directly at the target, why do I need sights? Really do not see purpose of the poll

bds
August 20, 2012, 02:00 AM
I try very hard to not shoot with my eyes closed. If my firearm always pointed directly at the target, why do I need sights? Really do not see purpose of the poll
The purpose of this polled thread was to demonstrate what may happen during life-threatening close range SD/HD shooting situations in low-light conditions where fast draw/fire may have to be made without the aid of the sights.

I went through this drill at the start of my defensive shooting training to first determine the "natural point-of-aim" with our pistols, then we had to perform all modes of shooting (fast weak hand draw, etc.) in low-light conditions (range lights were turned low and smoke was added). I suggested this to local USPSA match shooters and we set up the practice stages with the front sights of our Glocks removed to do some "point shooting" accuracy stage runs using both strong/weak hands. We learned a lot from both experiences.

At this point, I think we may have enough votes to state that even for Glock owners familiar with Glock grip angle (remember, we used the honor system?), grip angle did influence the alignment of front/rear sights for almost half of the shooters! :eek: BTW, I can align my sights but I need to "torque" my hand/grip for Glocks and all of my non-Glock pistols point on target with both strong/weak hand draw.

What that tells me is that in actual shooting situations, unsighted fire may results in POI deviation from POA. For me, simply claiming your sighted practice/training will be sufficient to compensate for this issue is not enough. I must practice/train unsighted to ensure that my POI is is same as my POA.

For those that voted their Glock sights were right on the POA/light switch, try the same drill with your weak hand and be honest with the drill - Close your eyes, draw/point at the light switch fast "using natural hand grip" you may use under stress/panic and HOLD your hand/grip and check your sights. If the result is different than how you voted, you don't have to tell us, but do incorporate this realization into your training. ;)

If you want verification, try the same drill on your next range trip with a single dot Center-of-Mass (COM) on the target at 3-5 yards and repeat with both strong and weak hands. Let us know how it goes and BE HONEST!


For me accuracy is everything and holes on target speak volumes.

GLOOB
August 20, 2012, 06:52 AM
Ok, some other people have tried to explain this, already. But I'll give it another go, BDS.

To us, you're doing it wrong.

When we can't see the sights (too dark or front sight removed), we do not continue to shove the back of the gun to our eyeline as if it still matters, just so we can not only fire blindly, but obscure half our vision while firing blindly.

What we do is lower the gun slightly, keeping the gun in our near peripheral vision, while keeping the POA on target. This elevates the muzzle of the gun in relation to the grip. You see the front sight higher than the rear sight, AND the gun is still pointed exactly right. This is how the Glock is biased from the beginning. So it's actually a very natural grip angle for low light situations and point shooting for some of us.

If I were asked to point a Glock at a light switch with my eyes closed, I would make no attempt to bring the sights in alignment with my eyes. I would be quasi-point shooting with an elevated front sight, gun and sights below my direct line of vision. If I now am allowed to actually aim, I lower my head, raise my arms, and flatten my wrist as necessary. Gun is always pointed where it's supposed to.

So ok. You might argue that when actually using the sights in good lighting, that extra motion will delay your shot. I disagree. When you bring a "naturally pointing" gun to your eye and the sights are lined up perfect, but not exactly perfect, your front sight can now be totally hidden by the rear sight, slowing your first shot. When time counts, I start off with the afore-described modified sight picture. If the shot needs to break at that point in time, that's how I'll do it. If I have time and need to aim more precisely, then I will. But shooting from 21 feet from the holster in timed drills, I have no problem keeping all the shots on a paper plate without using a traditional sight picture.

bds
August 20, 2012, 09:49 AM
Gloob, I agree with you.

When I initially started this thread, it was intended to show Glock owners what their Glock sights actually did. I have been contemplating about the issue you posted and started another poll thread to range test this thread's intent - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=673580

Holes on target speak volumes.

dataDyne
August 20, 2012, 03:04 PM
Points a couple degrees down and like 25 degrees to the right

Andrew Wyatt
August 20, 2012, 08:04 PM
If you use the sights, it points where you aim it.

AK103K
August 20, 2012, 08:35 PM
If you use the sights, it points where you aim it.
Rendering the whole "where it points" thing, moot, regardless what the gun is.

CZguy
August 20, 2012, 10:46 PM
If you use the sights, it points where you aim it.

Each and every time.

I really don't know why I read these type of threads. I guess it's kind of like a car wreck....you just have to look.

USBP1969
October 6, 2012, 05:20 PM
Way back when (Mid 1980's) a group showed up at the FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) firing range. They wanted to show us a newly designed pistol. Mr. Glock was present along with interpreters, et al.

We checked it out (dry fire) and asked several questions of Mr. Gaston Glock.

1) We found the grip angle "different" and asked why that particular grip angle was chosen?

They showed us a photo of Austrian soldiers lined up behind several tables (four I think) with a silhouette target down range of each table. They explained that on each table was a 9mm Glock with a different grip angle and each soldier was to fire each gun at the target down range. The target was not changed, but reflected the composite accuracy of each gun after being fired at by all the soldiers. The winning grip angle was chosen according to which target had the best group after all the shooting was completed. Here's the interesting part, the soldiers were shooting strong hand only, bullseye style.

2) We didn't like the .160" front sight and the .130" rear sight widths and asked if they could be reversed. Mr. Glock said, "No."

3) They mentioned a 3.5# trigger and we asked if that could be ordered. Mr. Glock said, "No."

When asked why he said, "In Europe if someone shoots himself it's their problem. In American it's my problem, everyone here sues."

Now you have "The rest of the story."

tomrkba
October 6, 2012, 05:39 PM
Update: I stated earlier that Glocks point high for me. This is true except for the Glock 21 Gen4. It points perfectly for me with a bare backstrap.

David E
October 7, 2012, 12:42 PM
Update: I stated earlier that Glocks point high for me. This is true except for the Glock 21 Gen4. It points perfectly for me with a bare backstrap.

Then the 3.5 Gen SF should point well for you, also.

batmann
October 7, 2012, 08:37 PM
The grip angle is a none issue for me, but mine does point slightly high on a quick presentation.

Deaf Smith
October 7, 2012, 09:07 PM
My carry sub-compact Glocks alway point on for me but there is a reason for that.

Leaned long time about about indexing ones body to make the weapon index on the target WITHOUT seeing the sights (helps with flash sight picture.)

I just step my left foot just a bit forward and use a Isosceles hold, thumbs down, left hand cocked a bit when drawing. Gives me a dead on sight picture as soon as I reach full extension.

Deaf

1911 guy
October 7, 2012, 10:59 PM
I don't own a Glock and didn't vote in the poll. I also don't like the grip angle.

HOWEVER:

When taking a friend to choose his first handgun, I explained gun fit to him. He understood it. I also explained the "pick a spot on the wall" drill He did it. He bought a Glock because it fit him well.

Everybodys' hands are shaped differntly and are different sizes. Some people find the Glock grip angle very comfortable. More power to them. Even those who find it uncomfortable but are required to use the pistol can adapt to it readily. I don't care for the width of the M9 but was able to use one fairly well because I had to use it repeatedly and qualify with it.

Glock makes a mechanically sound pistol. I wouldn't choose it for myself, but I won't knock people who do.

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