7.62x25 vs .357 sig


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xxxleafybugxxx
August 15, 2012, 07:52 PM
I shot my CZ-52 this afternoon and decided to shoot it through some books to see the penetration factor. I was completely surprised! I first shot the pile of books with my 45 xd, and with a fmj it got about 3 inches of penetration. I then shot the same pile of books and I was suprised when the stack didn't stop the 7.62. So I made the stack higher, and found it to penetrate about 7 inches. (a very Unscientific experiment) Now I realize the 45 wasn't meant to penetrate, but was still utterly surprised by the difference. Anyways, this caused me to once again realize how much I like that round. (7.62) Its a shame they don't make modern pistols to chamber this round. So my question is, how different is that from the .357 sig? I could be wrong, but I feel as if the 2 rounds are very similar in nature. Pros and cons of each?

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WardenWolf
August 15, 2012, 08:00 PM
The key to defeating armor is a small caliber with high velocity. That's why tanks use sabot rounds and why 7.62x25 can go through Level 2 body armor. Even a slight increase in diameter can have a significant decrease in penetration, even when the overall kinetic energy is higher. Level 2 body armor will stop .357 and .44 Magnum, but not the 7.62 Tokarev round or the .30 Carbine round. So short answer is, the Tokarev round will have better penetration than .357 Sig.

nathan
August 15, 2012, 08:35 PM
I ve shot this empty gas tank from 20 yds away with .357 mag and 7.62 x 25 tokarev surplus FMJs using CHicom 54-1tokarev. All went through like a hot knife on butter.


http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/Dongha_97/DSC03972.jpg

VA27
August 15, 2012, 08:36 PM
I too, like the Tok round. A modern gun in the caliber would be nice, along with a PM9 sized pocket pistol.

nathan
August 15, 2012, 08:44 PM
My Norinco 54 -1 was brandnew when i got it seven years ago. Its not the best of ergo and looks but reliable. Only thing i wanted on it is a shorter rear sight bec the chicoms zeroed them around 50 meters. Mine hits 2 inches high from POA at 25 yds. Now the surplus ammo on them are just drying up . The reason why i dont wanna get another tokarev , temptiing as it may on the many Yugo and Romanian pistols. This Norinco is good enough for me for range blasting.

The .45 acp ball ammo didnt penetrate the tank. YOu can see two big dents around the 10 and 11 o clock if the tank is standing position . THe rest of the holes were .3006 M2 surplus, 5.56 greentips and AK rounds. Also the 9 mm Para FMJs didnt penetrate same with the .45acp. All fired at 20 yds away .

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/Dongha_97/DSC03970.jpg

barnbwt
August 15, 2012, 09:00 PM
Its a shame they don't make modern pistols to chamber this round.

I seem to be hearing this more and more, lately. It seems the conventional wisdumb had it the Tok was a notoriously over-penetrating small caliber unsuitable for anything, when in reality it just needed modern bullets to work it's magic. The rounds are screaming fast enough to give very efficient and reliable expansion, something that's been the goal of every other caliber in the defense market. I believe Hornady makes hollowpoints now, and Wolf makes HP cartridges, but I'm not aware anyone else is exploring the market. Some guy a while back even made a .223 sabot loading (Timbs, it was) that went over 2000fps, but wasn't very stable at the typical twist rate.

S&W needs to change the neck taper by 1 degree and call it the "300 Magnum" :D They'd sell a billion! I like how flat-shooting my CZ52 is, little to no holdover needed at 100 yards, now that's accuracy.

A modern gun in the caliber would be nice, along with a PM9 sized pocket pistol.

A 7.62tok pocket gun would smack your hand pretty good, but would be a formidable asset. I find it's a medium-strength, but very fast, recoil feel. Easy on the wrist; on the palm, not so much. (doesn't help my CZ suffers from a slap 'o the trigger)

how different is that (7.62tok) from the .357 sig? I could be wrong, but I feel as if the 2 rounds are very similar in nature.

I've always felt the 7.62tok held a role more similar to the 5.7x28; both being fast, smaller diameter rounds suited for shearing fibers. Wasn't the sig supposed to duplicate (and replace) common .357mag loadings?

TCB

WardenWolf
August 16, 2012, 02:11 AM
The .357 Sig was designed to make a .357 Magnum equivalent that was more suitable for autoloaders. Rimmed cartridges just don't work well for autoloading pistols, and the only successful autoloader that has ever really used them is the Desert Eagle.

The Tokarev round is the best pentrator I know of, out of any handgun cartridge. Granted, usually you don't *want* that kind of penetration, but it's nice knowing your round will go through no matter what. I personally stack my Tokarev magazine. First round is an S&B FMJ round (this is the round that was tested against Level 2 body armor and USGI Kevlar helmets). Second round is a Wolf hollowpoint, alternating down the line. I have testfired these stacked magazines, and there is no noticeable difference in recoil between the rounds. You just shoot, and the bullets go where you aim them.

Ash
August 16, 2012, 06:47 AM
The only issue with any 7.62x25 ammo is the length of the round. You'd have to chamber a pistol in a 10mm platform. That would limit what is available to the user.

Interestingly enough, the pistol most readily available for this kind of conversion is the Tanfoglio. 10mm frames mate easily to 9mm slides. As far as I know, the ejection port is the same size on both pistols (need to measure that). A 10mm magazine should handle 7.62x25 ammo. The only trick, then, would be to get a barrel custom-made in 7.62x25.

greyeyezz
August 16, 2012, 09:03 AM
"Again, the 357 Sig rounds had no trouble with the steel. Iím not sure why some of the tok rounds werenít penetrating. It could be simply variation which isnít surprising for surplus ammo. When I was blasting away with them, I also wasnít paying attention to making sure I was hitting the sheets orthogonally as I was when I was running the test so that could have been it too. I will say none of the 357 Sig rounds failed to penetrate all 3 sheets though, which doesnít hold true to the other pistol rounds I tested."


http://intrencik.com/357sig.htm

xxxleafybugxxx
August 16, 2012, 10:55 AM
I found an interesting handgun on buds... its a pps43 that shoots the 7.62x25. In fact, its hot a 6.5 in barrel, which would qualify it to hunt deer in WI (:

kerreckt
August 16, 2012, 11:18 AM
The Norinco 213 which is a 9mm copy of a Tokarev can also shoot the 7.62x25 round with just a change of the barrel. Early in the time they were imported it was possible to buy this pistol with both barrels using the same magazine. I have shot many rounds of each caliber through mine with no problems. So in this case the length of the 7.62x25 round isn't an issue.

Ash
August 16, 2012, 06:44 PM
The 9mm Tokarev is still based on a 7.62x25 frame. I was thinking more a high-capacity pistol. Imagine, a 16 round Tanfoglio in 7.62x25.

Deaf Smith
August 16, 2012, 07:18 PM
Just get a Glock 20 and 9x25 Dillon barrel. 125gr JHP at 1700fps (double tap ammo with 6" Lone Wolf bbl) OR

95 gr jhp at 1995fps / 881 ft. lbs. (6" Lone Wolf bbl)...

THAT ought to do it!

Even the heavy 147 grs hits a mear 1495fps

Deaf

Ash
August 16, 2012, 07:40 PM
Yeah, but Toke ammo is so cheap.

barnbwt
August 16, 2012, 07:47 PM
and the only successful autoloader that has ever really used them is the Desert Eagle.

Don't forget the Coonan and Unica 6 (okay, maybe not financially successful):)

The Norinco 213 which is a 9mm copy of a Tokarev can also shoot the 7.62x25 round with just a change of the barrel.

CZ52 converts to 9mm (or largo) with a barrel-swap, too. Just no one's making the barrels anymore :(

I was thinking more a high-capacity pistol. Imagine, a 16 round Tanfoglio in 7.62x25.

The Tok round would fit in a 10mm case (I think 10mm is long enough) but they're only as wide as a 9mm, so would a single stack mag turn into a double, or would it just not work? The feed lips would need adjustment, regardless. I think a double-stack 10mm (like the Glock) magazine would just be too wide for the narrower tok rounds. I'd love to see someone (there's lots of Witness fans around here, right?) try this out, though. Would almost make buying two guns and a barrel worth it :D

TCB

stoney1666
August 17, 2012, 01:47 PM
I can get 8 in a 38 super mag for the 1911 9mm convertion barrel

M7
August 17, 2012, 02:08 PM
I'd really like to see the Glock 20 in 7.62 Tokarev.

Ash
August 18, 2012, 10:02 AM
The Astra A-75 uses the same magazine for 40S&W as well as 9mm. The Witness does not, as far as I know, but I imagine a 10mm magazine could easily be made to work. For that matter, 9mm magazines made for the large-frame Tanfoglio might also work. The easiest to do the work would be a Tanfoglio given the options available.

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