[Harold Mayo]

This from the AP with bold comments by me:

JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (Jan. 30) - Former President Nelson Mandela called President Bush arrogant and shortsighted and implied that he was racist for ignoring the United Nations in his zeal to attack Iraq.

In a speech Thursday, Mandela urged the people of the United States to join massive protests against Bush. Mandela called on world leaders, especially those with vetoes in the U.N. Security Council, to oppose him.

''One power with a president who has no foresight and cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust,'' Mandela told the International Women's Forum.

Mandela also criticized Iraq for not cooperating fully with the weapons inspectors and said South Africa would support any action against Iraq that was supported by the United Nations.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer responded to Mandela's criticism by pointing to a letter by eight European leaders reiterating their support of Bush.

''The president expresses his gratitude to the many leaders of Europe who obviously feel differently'' than Mandela, Fleischer said. ''He understands there are going to be people who are more comfortable doing nothing about a growing menace that could turn into a holocaust.''

A Nobel Peace Prize winner, Mandela has repeatedly condemned U.S. behavior toward Iraq in recent months and demanded Bush respect the authority of the United Nations. His comments Thursday, though, were far more critical and his attack on Bush far more personal than in the past.

Authority of the United Nations? A load of crap. The UN should have NO authority over us. Bush is being nice by actually letting them think that the say of the UN matters even a little. IMO, the UN has become a way for "wannabe" nations to play with the big boys. WE support the UN and always have. I doubt any country spends as much, even on a per capita basis, on the UN as we do and it is all a waste, as far as I'm concerned.

''Why is the United States behaving so arrogantly?'' he asked. ''All that (Bush) wants is Iraqi oil,'' he said.

Maybe. Who cares? War is not about moral or ethical issues, as most people would like to believe...not clear-cut ones that would make a good movie or book, anyway. If it is about oil, then it is about oil because a threat to our supply is a threat to our way of life. It has, regardless of reasons, come down to us NOT backing down from our threats/promises of what will be done if Iraq doesn't give in to our demands. What most Americans don't understand is that a lot of other nations aren't as "civilized" as we are. Backing down is a sign of weakness and you (WE) can't let that happen at this point, regardless of the reasons that brought us here.

He accused Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair of undermining the United Nations and U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who is from Ghana.

Undermining? I already covered this. The UN should not have any say at all in our national affairs. And why should we listen to a goatherder from Ghana? He may be an educated leader in his own nation but he's still not very far removed from running around in a loincloth trying to gather in his nannies.

''Is it because the secretary-general of the United Nations is now a black man? They never did that when secretary-generals were white,'' he said.

Seems like Nelson picked up a few lessons from our own local "heroes" like the REVEREND Jesse Jackson and the REVEREND Al Sharpton. If I were in a country where whites were a minority, could I complain about my treatment because I was white? Could I plead my case to American bleeding hearts and get some free money for my cause? Why can't more blacks be like Larry Elder? Guys, if you really want equality, then back off wanting something extra because of your skin color and play it like everyone else. That's the thing, though...many don't want equality but enjoy being given ADDITIONAL rights and privileges.

Mandela said the United Nations was the main reason there has been no World War III and it should make the decisions on how to deal with Iraq.

Mutually Assured Destruction is the reason for no WWIII. The UN can't make a decision worth crap. They are a token organization that wants more and more power when, if given it, they would misuse it.

He said that the United States, which callously dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, has no moral authority to police the world.

Callously? Well...it saved a lot of American and British lives and boosted us to more prominence as a world power. I believe that it was the best course of action available at the time. Moral authority? Well...we sure helped his people out. I would venture to same that we have one of the most humanitarian governments in the world. Does he think Ghana or South Africa have the moral authority to police the world? Come on...it's not about morality, anyway. It's about economics and "pecking order" in the world. Show me ONE war that was fought for strictly moral reasons.

''If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings,'' he said.

????WHEN???WHAT?????

Point them out! We outclass Germany? The Soviet Union? China? Iraq? SOUTH AFRICA? I believe each of those countries has had greater atrocities committed in living memory than have been committed here (well...the infringements on our freedoms matter to me more than the lives of people on the other side of the world, but that only shows the callous side of me that doesn't care for human beings).


''Who are they now to pretend that they are the policemen of the world, the ones that should decide for the people of Iraq what should be done with their government and their leadership?'' he said.

Who are the Americans to to pretend that they are the policemen of the world, the ones who should decide that apartheid is bad? Who are the Americans to put economic sanctions in place against the government of South Africa for humanitarian violations against my people?

What an ungrateful bastard.

He said Bush was ''trying to bring about carnage'' and appealed to the American people to vote him out of office and demonstrate against his policies.

He also condemned Blair for his strong support of the United States.

At least Blair knows on which side his bread is buttered. The US has done so little for GB and yet they still side with us. Why side with losers, Nelson?

''He is the foreign minister of the United States. He is no longer prime minister of Britain,'' he said.

I hope not. I would not be proud to call that liberal Limey my fellow citizen.

[Azrael256]

Ok, I really have to know... What was he tossed in jail for in the first place? Nobody has ever given me a straight answer.

[Harold Mayo]

I'm not sure of the official charges. He was just a political prisoner, though, regardless of the charges. I'm sure it's somewhere online, though I'm not interested enough in it to look it up.

[El Tejon]

Mandela was imprisoned for terrorism.

[cordex]

you sure, El Tejon?

The way I hear it, it was all "advocating" this and "inciting" that. Specifically, inciting a strike (5 years) and advocating armed resistance (life, but released in 1990). Or does advocating resistance count as terrorism?

Not that I'm defending the gentleman in question ....

[Gary H]

The man is idolized by the left. Oakland has a major boulevard named after him. He lives amongst the pantheon of gods.

This country was instrumental in his exit from prison. The ungrateful b______.

[El Tejon]

cordex, well, it depends. What would you as a member of the jury call a defendant in the dock that had 100s of pounds of explosives, hand grenades, maps of governmental buildings and power stations, and a booklet entitled "How to be a Good Communist"?

[ahenry]

In 1961 he helped found, and was the commander of, Umkhonto we Sizwe (Spear of the Nation) along with the outlawed communist party. Umkhonto we Sizwe or MK for short was the militant wing of the African National Congress (ANC). Several years later he was convicted of sabotage and terrorism through the actions of Umkhonto we Sizwe. They blew up gov’t buildings, including schools, IIRC over 1000 schools were blown up (I'm sure many after he was already in prison). His wife was perhaps even worse than he. He used as his influence, men like Fidel Castro, Moa Tse-tung and Che Guevara. I don’t care how much he was trying to “fight racism” or “free his people” I’ve got no respect for him.

In his own words: Although the executive of the ANC did not allow white members, MK was not thus constrained. I immediately recruited Joe Slovo, and along with Walter Sisulu, we formed the High Command with myself as chairman. Through Joe, I enlisted the efforts of white Communist Party members who had resolved on a course of violence and had already executed acts of sabotage like cutting government telephone and communication lines. We recruited Jack Hodgson, who had fought in World War II with the Springbok Legion, and Rusty Bernstein, both party members. Jack became our first demolitions expert. Our mandate was to wage acts of violence against the state--precisely what form those acts would take was yet to be decided. Our intention was to begin with what was least violent to individuals but most damaging to the state.

[cordex]

cordex, well, it depends. What would you as a member of the jury call a defendant in the dock that had 100s of pounds of explosives, hand grenades, maps of governmental buildings and power stations, and a booklet entitled "How to be a Good Communist"?
Target of opportunity? 4th of July celebration in a box?

But seriously, was that part of the treason charge?

The little things that we don't hear ...

[Art Eatman]

Essentially, he was imprisoned for "all of the above", including murder. He didn't necessarily set off the bomb, nor pull the trigger, but he was fully involved in quite a few deaths. Order-giver, conspiracist to murder, whatever...

Wifemate Winnie is most noted for her comment, "With our little necklaces, we shall overcome." A "necklace" is a car tire. You put it over a tied-up guy's head, put gasoline in it, and set it on fire. "Necklacing".

Art

[t-money]

I have too been guilty lately of hearing that the United States is "guilty of so many atrocities" without ever stopping and saying, "Oh yea, where? When? Why? Show me!"

As I recal the UN sat passively by during Kosovo and Somolia. How quickly we forget that most of those we helped were Muslim.

He just joins my list of people to not pay attention to.

[Bob Locke]

He's one of the foremost communists currently getting any air time.

[jimpeel]

The text is here (http://www.creator.org/southafrica/madcommieCSS.html) but the site seems to be anti-Jewish. I believe this is the webpage of the "World Church of the Creator" although the page only identifies itself as the "World Church". They are a White Power type of organization as the ticker across the top of the page will readily show.

"Media Watch" also has some things on this at: http://secure.mediaresearch.org/news/mediawatch/1990/mw19900701stud.html and http://secure.mediaresearch.org/news/mediawatch/1990/mw19900301p1.html

A simple cut-n-paste of the following search terms gets lots of "hits".

"how to be a good communist" +mandela

[PATH]

South Africa is not exactly a sparkling gem of a country. The place is falling apart. Mandela is an old man who time has passed by.

Who cares or notes what he has to say!?

[10-Ring]

For someone who rec'd so much support from the US, he sure did forget something called "LOYALTY" Haven't been a big fan of his anyway.
Hope someone is taking note of who supported the US when the rally cry went out. Later when they all come crying for aid & support they call just kiss my @$$

You know, we'd have a more than balanced budget if just stopped funding other countries that can't balance their own check books! Our $$, should be our rules :cuss:

[Viking6]

Flame at will. I don't agree with a some of Mandela's statements, especially this last tirade. But Mandela embraced non-violence for almost twenty years before he started the guerilla movement. Ironically, it wasn't the guerilla movement that brought freedom to South Africa but the sanctions by the United States and others. Sanctions that weren't imposed in other parts of Africa--one confusing and thoroughly messed up place.

[Waitone]

Mandela has always been a Marxist, something not discussed in Big Media.

Now it's clear the guy is an idiot.

[rock jock]

Many of the comments above are right on target. Mandela would still be rotting in a jail cell if it were not for pressure from the U.S. Congress and American businesses.

[BigG]

Harold Mayo: Everyone was young and foolish once. Thank goodness you matured. ;)

[Wildalaska]

I never liked Nelson Mandela, he is in my list of meaningless useless people who I pay no attention to at any time.

WildhesboringAlaska

[schild]

Am I in bizarro world? Mandela is a communist, all his comrades are communists. What's to admire?


www.getusout.org

[Malone LaVeigh]

This isn't just aimed at people on this board. I heard it for years, and have given it a lot of thought:

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the hypocracy of fat, self-absorbed, secure people living in a country that was founded in a just and bloody revolution criticizing those who had the temerity to try to do the same. Of course he was a revolutionary. I suppose it would have been OK with you characters if he had worn a powdered wig and a 3-cornered hat.

The injustices that the black majority in S Africa endured under apartheid make the grievances of our FFs sound like the petulant whining of a modern adolescent. They were oppressed and disenfranchised in land that had been stolen from their own ancestors. Living under an apartheid regime that was as bad as or worse than what US blacks endured in pre-civil rights Mississippi. Kept in lowest-caste opression solely because of their race.

Would any of you have meekly submitted to that or pursued a purely nonviolent campaign for freedom? Hypocracy doesn't begin to describe it. There are few around here that are willing to consider a nonviolent course of action, even when we clearly have the advantage and world support, as with Iraq.

I can see the criticizm of the fact that he aligned himself with communists. At the time, no one else was supporting 3rd world revolutions. Certainly not the US. The assertion that the US had a big role in bettering the lot of the black majority of SA is a joke. The US steadfastly traded with and morally supported the apartheid regime. Congress did finally, after many years of campaigning by human rights groups, and over the veto of Ronald Reagan, institute a weak set of sanctions in the early 80s IIRC. That was probably one of the last straws that finally moved the Botha regime to release Mandela and begin negotiating and end to apartheid. But the US govt was far behind most of the world, including a lot of US cities and pension funds in divesting from SA.

Since the change of power, the bloodbath that many predicted failed to happen. That country has a lot of major problems, as does the rest of Africa, not all but a lot the legacy of it's colonial past.

[Malone LaVeigh]

Oh, and one other thing: He's spot-on about George Bush.

[Art Eatman]

Malone, I hold no brief for such a thing as Apartheid. At its most benevolent, it's still just flat-out unfair. It's wrong. One of its greatest evils is that it cannot avoid the creation of an uneducated class which cannot rise to the top of its level of innate talent.

However, the harumphing against South Africa during that time ignores several valid comparisons, one of which is that on a per capita basis, more black South Africans owned cars than did Russians in the USSR.

Another is that the per capita income was greater than nearby South African countries with black rule--which might explain the in-migration of other blacks of southern Africa into South Africa during that time of Apartheid.

One should examine the calendar of political events and the rise of police brutality. The increase of Communist agitation in the effort to take over the mineral wealth of that country brought about the increase in ever-stricter controls of the blacks.

I find it not unreasonable to believe that without Marxists such as Mandela, Apartheid would have fallen sooner and with less bloodshed. The mix of economic inefficiency and world approbation would have done the job, just as did eventually happen.

Art

[schild]

With the voluntary exodus of whites in SA in a few years it will be another Zimbabwe.

[Art Eatman]

schild, I always thought that at the end of the Ian Smith government in Rhodesia, all whites who remained were living in a dream world. I've held the same view regarding South Africa ever since the rise to power of the ANC. The degradation of that country during this last several years merely reinforces that belief.

Art

[fallingblock]

While racism has no credible defense, Mandela's own violent approach to gaining power relieves him of the luxury of criticising Bush. Mandela's actions exacerbated the violence in S.A., and the repercussions are still echoing in the present. He is a failing old hypocrite addressing the locals with his 'race' card.:rolleyes:

[hipower22]

He's senile. Forget him.

[fallingblock]

I could easily forget old Nelson if the lefty media didn't keep waving him around and implying the guy has anything of relevance to say.:p

I'll try remembering how he 'stole' the land of the Boer's forefathers, since that "stolen land" claim seems to justify everything:D

[Gordon]

I like the "stole land from" idiocy, like Israelian 'stole' land from Caananites, like Europeans 'stole' land from Indians, ect. ad nauseum. Hey wake up to reality. If we gave California back to Mexico in 5 years it would be swimming in Pampers on the streets like Mexico is in non tourist zones and beggars would line the streets. South Africa and Rhodesia were 'given back' to Black rule and just as predicted cannabalism is alive and well in Zimbabwe and Mandellaville is on the ways down the tube as being unsafe for anybody and a rouge nation (funnelling military supplies to Iraq ect.) to boot! I am sorry but everywhere the 'colonials' have left the quality of life has evaporated for EVERYBODY black and white! I think the statistics for this are unrefutable. I think that the tribal people have a worse way of life even though they now have the right to steal cars ect. This proves the failure of socialist social engineering experiments in the name of 'democracy' . Nelson Mandela was jailed for possesion of explosives and anybody could of seen him (like Castro and Mao) coming a mile away and let him rot. But the commies who infiltrated the state dept positions in UK and US want to secure the trade routes and pivitol location of SA for their Marxist brethren.And we have so many 'useful idiots' to make the uncontrolled mass slaughters in Africa possible, their hidden agenda: lower African population, the stinking hypocritical racists dogooder real agenda.:fire:

[jmbg29]

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the hypocracy of fat, self-absorbed, secure people living in a country that was founded in a just and bloody revolution criticizing those who had the temerity to try to do the same. Of course he was a revolutionary. I suppose it would have been OK with you characters if he had worn a powdered wig and a 3-cornered hat.Well, rule #1 in revolution is that you have to win. The American Revolutionarys faced down what had been the most powerful empire on Earth. They won. Mandela and his cohorts...oops I mean comrades:rolleyes: outnumbered their white oppressors by at least 5 to 1, some say as much as 30 to 1. Do the math.

Ineffectual losers like Mandela get criticized because they and their benevolent visions of everyone crushed equally in the iron fist of Communism always end up in the landfill of history.

He, his politics, and his sycophants are pathetic weaklings that always lost heart in the critical moments, a side effect of their desire to live as a colony of animals rather than as autonomous human beings. That's Marxism for ya! Now, they do little more than devour each other.

If it weren't for the sanctions laid on South Africa by this country, Mandela would be somewhat less than a dried up spot of vomit in the corner of a cell on Robbin Island. The fact that he seems, at best, clueless to that fact, speaks volumes. That South Africa swirled down the toilet of life under his tender ministrations, tells the rest of the story.

Given that South Africa has become a cesspool of rape/robbery/car-jacking/murder - that defies any precedent - under Mr. Mandela's (and his successor's tutelage) you give us great insight into what you consider "just". What would you say is the most quaint aspect of life in "modern" South Africa? Could it be the wide-spread belief that they have; that sex with a virgin will "cure" one of an H.I.V. infection? Or perhaps it's that time tested "necklacing" that suits your fancy?

His lack of ability to embrace a political philosophy that would have been successful, left him defeated and imprisoned. To salve the shame of that realization, his followers try to make his defeat and imprisonment into a sort of romantic mantle to lay upon the shoulders of someone that was always a myth, rather than a legend. Their brief day in the Sun is long over. Too bad, so sad.

Somewhat reminiscent of that Sandi guy we used to hear so much about down south a'ways. Heh.:fire:

[Art Eatman]

jmbg29, the fact that the evils of a particular system just might be replaced by the evils of a different system doesn't ever impinge on the memories of the unknowing.

Hey, Cuba's Batista was not a Very Nice Guy, so getting rid of him just had to mean that there would be more freedom under Castro, right?

Somebody name me ANY African country which has a government which actively works for the betterment of its citizenry, which is noted for efforts to enter the 21st century?

Art

[Malone LaVeigh]

Well, rule #1 in revolution is that you have to win.I don't know how to break this to you, but we're talking about the former president of SA. And former chairman of the revolutionary ANC. If that's not winning, I'd like to hear your definition. (I'm sure this will be interesting.)

Now, it wasn't just the ANC that won. The revolution was won (mostly) noviolently by a broad coalition and tons of international pressure.
If it weren't for the sanctions laid on South Africa by this country, Mandela would be somewhat less than a dried up spot of vomit in the corner of a cell on Robbin Island. The fact that the US eventually, after decades of internal campaigning, joined most of the world community in the sanctions is to our credit.
jmbg29, the fact that the evils of a particular system just might be replaced by the evils of a different system doesn't ever impinge on the memories of the unknowing. Next time you advocate self determination in any context, I'll just call you "unknowing."
Somebody name me ANY African country which has a government which actively works for the betterment of its citizenry, which is noted for efforts to enter the 21st century? SA is making a determined effort to do both. There are elements in it's society that make it very difficult. It's a very hard struggle, and I'm sure there have been setbacks along the way. I'd like to see anyone do better. Leading any country with a history of colonial exploitation and ethnic repression has got to be one of the most difficult balancing acts on earth. It's easy to see why in most African countries, thugs have risen to the top of this mess. Is your response that they should have stayed under the thumb of the white masters? If so, you don't understand human nature very well.

I just think for us to sit in our comfortable homes and criticize a leader of a country in which huge segments of the population are under 20 and living in shantys without running water is the worst sort of hypocracy. This is largely the country they inherited. We inherited a country that was created with the breaking of quite a few eggs ourselves.

[Art Eatman]

Sorry, Malone. Bad comparisons. Our revolution led in a very few years to physical betterment of the general population, as well as an increase in personal sovereignty.

South Africa's physical conditions have degraded. People are materially worse off. There is ever-less personal sovereignty. There has been an increase in graft and corruption. There has been a decline in educational efforts. There has been a dramatic increase in crime.

The recent claques of political leaders in the political structure of the "new" South Africa have been nothing more than incompetent demagogues.

They say they have been "trying" to make things all better. Wonderul. I'll tell you I'm gonna make you a heckuva cash deal on a bridge, okay? If they were at all competent, there would have been some signs of progress, rather than regress.

Art

[Bruce H]

And the real lesson in all this is if you have a troublemaker in your midst you kill him, not make him a prisoner. Martyrs all have one thing in common, their dead. They can't look bad on camera and spout invectives to stir up trouble.

[roscoe]

I'm with Malone on this one. Mandela has fought for moral causes around the world and, because he sees Bush's incipient attack on Iraq as immoral, he spoke out. You can disagree with his viewpoint, but I still think you have to be seeing him pretty narrowly to call him an idiot.

Mandela plain and simple wanted his people free of apartheid, and fought to get it. He was imprisoned on Robbin Island because he refused to renounce violence in the struggle against the apartheid government. He would have been released the moment he said the right words. That, my friends, is courage. I can guarantee that it is no less than, Thomas Jefferson would have done.

I am not so sure about South Africa falling apart. The value of the Rand has failed to collapse, and infrastructure is still intact. It is still way too early to judge the success of the country. You should check to see how the fledgeling US had to deal with the massive debts acrued during the American revolution, and how that affected infrastructure.

And to compare the evils of apartheid with the 'evils' of the current system is just silly, in my opinion. I had a black South African friend (journalist) who, in the early 80s, had the security forces come into his house and kick his family around until his wife miscarried. What was his legal recourse? None. And that was by no means a drastic, or unusual event. You find a comparable evil directly caused by the current government, and we can talk about the contrasting evils.

And yeah, somehow we Americans want to take credit for bringing down the apartheid regime? Give me a break!

[Malone LaVeigh]

Sorry, Malone. Bad comparisons. Our revolution led in a very few years to physical betterment of the general population, as well as an increase in personal sovereignty. Art, you're the one making the comparison. (OK, I made the comparison in the context of revolution, but then you changed the subject to post revolution success.) I don't think it's fair to compare the situation the FF's inherited from the one inherited by the South Africans. For one thing, it's been less than a decade since the first pluralistic elections in SA. Where was the US a decade after the revolution? Getting ready to adopt a new constitution. Your focus on material well being is limited, to say the least. SA doesn't have a largely unexploited continent or an educated middle class. It has a huge, young, uneducated and very poor underclass and the remnants of a small white elite. And an AIDS epidemic, fueled in part by the lack of education and poverty. You try to make a success in 10 years out of that.

And as far as "an increase in personal sovereignty," tell it to slaves in the southern colonies, the followers of Daniel Shays or the landless whites that couldn't vote. I'd argue that the personal sovereignty of most inhabitants of the 13 original states didn't change as much after the American Revolution as that of most South Africans. With the exception of a few taxes, the landed gentry of the American colonies had a great deal of autonomy, and that didn't change much for quite a few years after our revolution. OTOH, South Africans went from a regime that denied the basic vote to 80% of the population to universal sufferage.

Yeah, it's a bad comparison, all right.

[cratz2]

Who cares or notes what he has to say!?

Are you kidding me? I'd be willing to bet that if it came down to it, I mean all out anarchy, that more people in North America, Europe and Africa would listen to him and heed his advide and come to his calls than George Bush's. May not be much of a fight, but I think plenty of people notes what he has to say.

I find it very cowardly to belittle a country that was instrumental in using political power to have you freed from prison, but then, there are many cowards that are respected the world over... Let's see... Osama, Saddam and his sons, Mandela... Well, that's enough to prove my point.

I don't consider him an idiot, and no doubt he's done many wonderful things for his people, but when taking sides, take the side of the people that got you out of prison. A lot of world leaders would do well to take notes from the old Italian Mafia. Be loyal to those that have protected you and fought for you. And don't run your mouth about anyone on your side. TO ANYONE!

[roscoe]

I don't know where people get the idea that anyone in this administration had anything to do with the liberation of Mandela or the elimination of apartheid. I just want to remind you that Cheney (reprehensibly) voted repeatedly against economic sanctions against the apartheid government, and against a resolution calling for Mandelas freedom. Mandela owes this administration no gratitude.

[Zander]

It's easy to see why in most African countries, thugs have risen to the top of this mess.Yes, it is...especially when the thugs in control are virulent racists with totalitarian tendencies.

Is your response that they should have stayed under the thumb of the white masters?I suppose there's always the honest question that the dishonest are loathe to ask.

The great European "hegemony" disappeared decades ago. There's always the chance that you'll be able to make your case by touting the current state of affairs. That's highly unilkely.

If so, you don't understand human nature very well.Which is a greater handicap than the ability to apply logic?

[Gary H]

"lf there is a country which has committed unspeakable atrocities, it is the United States of America...They don't care for human beings."

Wow, is that really just about Bush?

"Because they decided to kill innocent people in Japan, who are still suffering from that, who are they now to pretend that they are the policeman of the world?..."

Alright, we just dropped the bomb so that we could kill innocent people. That was so much fun.. Did you all enjoy it as much as I? How many millions of people did those two bombs save?

Say what you want about this man, but please make sure that it is a really negative comment.

[Art Eatman]

"SA doesn't have a largely unexploited continent..." Huh? Gold, tungsten*, diamonds, land, timber? Farms, ranches, tourism? Unexploited? I'd say the proceeds from all the above may well be misused, but don't try to say that part of the continent is unexploited!

*South Africa and Russia control the world's supply.

"doesn't have..an educated middle class. It has a huge, young, uneducated and very poor underclass and the remnants of a small white elite."

True. As I said, that's one of the evils of Apartheid. However, everything I've read about SA over the last several years has said that the amount of and quality of education has declined. It's getting worse. And that's the fault of the present rulers.

To back up to pre-prison Mandela: Had he not fallen to the lure of Communism, but rather worked on the basis of no-change in the economic structure, two things would have obtained: He would have begun to get more international support much sooner (not having countries like the U.S. worried about the "Communist Menace"--which indeed was a menace) and would not have scared the ruling class nearly so much.

(A general rule of life itsownself is that if you show somebody that he won't lose money, or will add to his profits by acceding to your wishes, he's far more cooperative. That's why the SCLC got along so well with George Wallace in Alabama.)

The Russians loved him and supported him, as a willing dupe. His efforts created a wedge between the U.S. and a strong ally due to our distaste for the violence. If Mandela were successful, we believed that our supply of a war materiel, tungsten, would be imperilled. Worse, the USSR could achieve some degree of control of the shipping lanes. With mixed emotions, then, we were forced to support a regime and system with which we were not in accord--Apartheid.

I like to see folks eat, just as much as to see them vote.

Art

[Sergeant Bob]

"lf there is a country which has committed unspeakable atrocities, it is the United States of America...They don't care for human beings."
He is just spouting all this filth so he can suck up to all the petty despots populating the U.N. How about a necklace Mr. Mandela? He's just another scum sucking bottom feeder.

[labgrade]

Feh.

As "racist" as it may sound, Africa was much better off being ruled than it is during self-rule. They are cannibals - in either actually eating themselves, or in the eating of the economy, or through their "democracies."

Go talk to a few who lived there - before & after - see what they have to say.

Too, even with massive foreign aid, plus, a $15B promise to keep them from raping virgins to "save themselves from AIDS," .... Africa is a dog's breakfast.

It is not due to its natural resources, but moreso its "leaders."

Mandela is not one of them any more than was Idi Amin.

I see nothing to save the entire continent from its own self-destruction.

[fallingblock]

and his actions undoubtably exacerbated the violence of the so-called 'revolution'. His wife, a valued co-commander of the ANC, was a sadistic murderer.

I cannot find much in this man to admire, and his rhetoric is that of a simplistic, agenda-driven idealogue.:rolleyes:

Many of the educated middle-class (and not just 'whites') from South Africa have fled to 'safer' countries, including Australia. My family physician in Whyalla, S.Australia was a black who received his M.D. from Capetown Uni. and had a practice in Capetown. He and I spoke often of his experiences in the "new' South Africa.
His opinion was that the country had gone from a harshly-governed but law-abiding society to a criminal-infested anarchy. He found little encouragement that it would improve in his lifetime...he voted with his feet, closing his practice and bringing his family to safety.
When enough educated people, even those with tremendous investment and long association, are willing to lose everything (in this Doc's case, he couldn't bring out any assets) to leave, you have a nation going down the tubes.
If Nelson Mandela had a clue, or any inkling of how to choose competent people, this would not be happening.:uhoh:
The wealth of South Africa is immense, but the tribal factionalism and political corruption of Mandela and his successor are squandering it. Good luck to S.A., they need it!:(

[Malone LaVeigh]

Huh? Gold, tungsten*, diamonds, land, timber? Farms, ranches, tourism? Unexploited? Exactly. None of those things are unexploited in SA. They have all been owned and operated by generations of the white elite. Mandela didn't have the fiction of an unexploited continent we had when we won our independence. When he took over he had a choice of instituting immediate land reform and redistribution of wealth, which would have destroyed the productivity of the country, or maintaining the status quo, which would have been impossible, given the pent up frustrations of the vast majority of the people. He took a middle course and tried to keep the middle class there while also trying to bring living standards of the majority up. No one is completely happy, but I'd like to hear what anyone else would have done that would have been better.
everything I've read about SA over the last several years has said that the amount of and quality of education has declined. For the elite, it probably has. He had the problem of trying to bring the FIRST rudimentary efforts at education to 80% of the population. Again, what would YOU have done better?
Had he not fallen to the lure of Communism, but rather worked on the basis of no-change in the economic structure... I don't disagree that it would have been more effective for him to have embraced nonviolence from the start and been more accomodating to the US on their economic phobias. But this was before MLK, remember. Not everyone understood or agreed with the Ghandi approach. Again, who are we to 2nd guess? I'm giving you the credit of meaning "continuation of market economics" when you say "no-change in the economic structure." Certainly the apartheid economic structure was unacceptable.
His efforts created a wedge between the U.S. and a strong ally due to our distaste for the violence. Oh, you've gotta be kidding there. I thought I was having a discussion with someone with an understanding of US history. We had no "distaste for the [revolutionary] violence" when our friends were the likes of Savimbi, Pinochet, the Contras, etc. We've supported and even participated in some of the most brutal, undemocratic terrorism that has ever been inflicted on humanity. I know you're not that naive.

[Sir Galahad]

Speaking of terrorism, Malone, is it not also true that the author of your tagline advocated eco-terrorism and is the poster child of Earth First, an eco-terrorist organization? The FBI regards acts of eco-terrorism as genuine terrorism. The acts described in "The Monkey Wrench Gang" are terrorism. And is it, therefore, any coincidence that Earth First uses a pair of crossed monkey wrenches as their symbol?

[Malone LaVeigh]

Up rode Sir Galahad... :rolleyes:

You're welcome to take your definitions from the FBI. I think anyone who conflates pouring sand in the crankcase of a dozer with mass murder trivializes both. If you want to have a discussion of monkeywrenching, I'm happy to do so, but tone down the rhetoric.

[DeltaElite]

Mandela is a fool.
Earth First members are fools, but they sure are fun to arrest. :D

[Malone LaVeigh]

Earth First members are fools, but they sure are fun to arrest. Sounds pretty co-dependant to me. They sure like getting arrested.

[Selfdfenz]

If you were in the media where could you BUY better copy.
Given the immensity of Saint Nelson’s phoniness could it be the media has hired a speechwriter for him. He and his speech were just about too good to be true.

I'm sure for the right sized honorarium he would be glad to deliver this or an even better (more denegrating to the US) speech on request anywhere in the US and to cheering crowds of adoring liberals,graduating Harvard or Yale students, or all-round Bush haters. Which is really why this speech was so widely circulated, rather than the truth of Mandela's comments or the clearity of his thought. Opposition to Bush. The media will publish anyone that has negative spin for Bush and his administration.

Really, if Saint Nelson had had something less inflamitory to say or, heavn forbid something in aid of helping the situation, does anyone think he would have been quoted. OTOH, if he wants to stay on the media radar sweeps he NEEDS to fire off a salvo like this periodically. In case some of you may not have noticed the press determines who gets nominated for "Sainthood of Behalf of All Humanity Unwashed and Otherwise".
If Mandela wants to be carried high of the sholders of the literati during his state funeral he has his dues to pay.

BTW, I don't recall that :
1. the FFs blew up schools
2. necklessing or anything similiar was employed to "re-educate" the Tories.
3. rape, including infants, became a national passtime following the RW......I must have missed that somehow

The Tories did not leave the newly formed US in droves. Some did but it was not to the level of white flight we see in SA. . Many of the original signers ended up financially destroyed. I have not come across anything in the literature indicating that the Tories were systematically targeted after the war. There was no Tory-directed Apartheid before or after the war.

Not exactly the situation in SA.

OTOH
I do seem to remember that the Japanese started the Second World War. We just finished it.
Mandela might have enjoyed and learned a great deal from actually reading the history of the SWW. He would have found out civilan targets were originally high on the list of AXIS air marshalls. They begain the process. We gave it bach to them in surplus amounts.
The Allies targeted civilian targets and killed far greater numbers of civiains in Europe with conventional bombs than were killed in Japan by The Bomb(s) contray to what Saint Nelson seems to be think.

It upsets me to think any of my tax dollars go to SA for anything.
Let Saint Nelson left them up by the bootstraps by the strenth of his convictions and his great patriotic speeches, savior, visionary and patriot that he is.

Only the US (and sadly in this case it's President) would allow themselves to called 10 flavors of SOBs by such a poor piece of plunder as Nelson Mandela and continue to send money that direction.
S-

[fallingblock]

We are pulling Nelson back and forth over the idealogical coals and Ed Abbey pops up!:D

One of my undergrad professor's daughters, who knew Ed from her time as a river rat around Moab, told me that Ed really appreciated the opportunity which 'Earth First' gave him to meet the young and dedicated female eco-fanatics. Any of you familiar with Ed's writings may see a connection here:rolleyes:

I believe Ed did not actually do any of the potentially fatal eco-sabotage such as 'treespiking' and use of explosives, but I suppose "The Monkey Wrench Gang" could have been more than the fantasy of a saddened and frustrated desert rat:uhoh:
I hasten to add that I appreciate Abbey's writings and admire his realistic if cynical appraisals of civilization as it impacts the wild.

Selfdefnz:

Some short-sighted folks like to use that "nuked the Japanese" throwaway, but there is little doubt that the policy indeed 'finished what the Japanese had started" saving an estimated 500,000 Allied casualties and four million Japanese in the process. Death by incineration/vaporization/radiation may have been slightly more novel at the time than the same fate by projectile, but the fact is the use of the nuclear weapons did convince the Japanese heirarchy (many of whom by 1945 were living in a make-believe world of "Bushido") that the game was over. Nelson is indeed hoping for 'sainthood' :D

[Sir Galahad]

Malone, there isn't any "rhetoric" to tone down. The definitions are what they are whether you agree with them personally or not. Destroying the private property of others is wrong whether you think so or not. Further, one day, they will graduate to killing people when they feel just destroying property isn't saving the planet fast enough. The latest escapade of eco-terrorists was setting fire to a sales lot of SUVs. Why don't you ask the firefighters who fight those fires how non-terroristic setting arson fires is? Why don't you ask the police how non-terroristic people setting arson fires are and how we can bank on such people never, ever killing people? I suppose tree-spiking is just fun and games, too? They are TERRORISTS. People in a country that allows free speech but instead choose to use arson to make political statements are TERRORISTS.

[pittspilot]

"Exactly. None of those things are unexploited in SA. They have all been owned and operated by generations of the white elite. Mandela didn't have the fiction of an unexploited continent we had when we won our independence. When he took over he had a choice of instituting immediate land reform and redistribution of wealth, which would have destroyed the productivity of the country, or maintaining the status quo, which would have been impossible, given the pent up frustrations of the vast majority of the people. He took a middle course and tried to keep the middle class there while also trying to bring living standards of the majority up. No one is completely happy, but I'd like to hear what anyone else would have done that would have been better."

Why do these threads drive me wild. I'll tell you. I immigrated from South Africa in 1984. I have returned twice. Once in 1996, and once in 2000. ALL of my family live there. Possibly I may have some insight, that even Malone may listen too.

1) I am of mixed heritage. Many different strains. We hid the african part out of naked self-interest. Do you blame me? I know what its like to hide from a color line.

2) There were few saints, and mostly sinners. Everone makes it a Black and White issue. Thats wrong. The Whites were not united and neither were the Blacks, to say nothing about the Indians, Chinese, Cape Coloreds.

3) Illegal Immigration was and remains one of the most pressing issues for South Africa.

4) When I was 11, I was walking in one of the major cities. I heard an explosion. I ran to the scene. A car bomb had killed many. My most vivid memory? A young girl, covered from head to toe in blood, offal and other remnants of another. The other? Her mother, a heavy set woman standing next to the car when it detonated. The silence, except for the child screaming, and screaming. The color of the child? Black. The responsible party? The ANC. Terrorists? You tell me.

5) My impressions of the changeover? In 1996, hope, in 2000, hopelessness. The economy, crime rate, and infrastructure spiral out of control, while the ruling ANC party members stifle democracy and line their pockets. Friends who would have been considered racial liberals, are bitter. The experiment is a failure.

6) And from the West? Deafening Silence, or pointed fingers of blame towards the USA or the previous government. All wrong, you are all wrong. And yet, I do not know the way. I merely hope that I die before it all goes wrong, and I witness my friends and relative live the nightmarish analogy to the Belgium Congo, while the West dithers.

I am spent, that is all.

[Malone LaVeigh]

O Sir Galahad, if you want to take the discussion off that way there is much I could say. Your first line above is as absurd as it is demonstrably wrong. But open another thread if you want to go that way, or pm me if you wish.

SD:
The Tories did not leave the newly formed US in droves. Some did but it was not to the level of white flight we see in SA. . Many of the original signers ended up financially destroyed. I have not come across anything in the literature indicating that the Tories were systematically targeted after the war. There was no Tory-directed Apartheid before or after the war. Well, that's just wrong. During and after the Revolution, Tories were systematically persecuted and in many cases, exterminated. Many did leave the new country. Believe it or not, American history isn't as clean as you learned in high school. And are you saying there is now a nationally-sponsored program of apartheid against whites? This is news to me.

pp, thanks for your insight. I agree we're probably "all wrong" since none of us have lived there, but my point so far hasn't been to defend Mandela or the ANC as much as to point out that American critics don't really have any right to point fingers about the way things are is SA. We have every right to disagree with him in his assessment of GWB (I don't) or US motives in attacking Iraq (I have mixed feelings about that). But to blame him for the ills of SA is patently wrong.

[fallingblock]

C'mon, Malone, Mandela helped tear the system down and oversaw its absurd metastasis into what's current.:rolleyes:

If that doesn't leave old Nelson bearing responsibility then y'all are gonna have to stop pickin' on G.W.; he just happens to be the president at the moment:D

[Selfdfenz]

ML

"Well, that's just wrong. During and after the Revolution, Tories were systematically persecuted and in many cases, exterminated."

Baloney. Try reading some of the history concerning the War of 1812. The Royalist faction was alive an still very much in aid of the Queen. They spying activity was notorious and notoriously successful.
Some Tories were harassed and some were probably killed during and after the RW. Exterminated...revisionist foolishness.

"Many did leave the new country. Believe it or not, American history isn't as clean as you learned in high school."

Never said it was. It's also not the black hole of evil many make it out to be.

"And are you saying there is now a nationally-sponsored program of apartheid against whites? This is news to me."
What might be referred to as a government in SA struggles with a "nationally-sponsored program" aimed at pumping water and that save only by massive infusions of foreign capital in the form of FA.
The current SA government's glaring lack of protection of whites in rural areas has been widely reported. It's not so much that the SA government need have a policy to remove whites from SA, just one that allows the process to take place.

S-

[pittspilot]

"pp, thanks for your insight. I agree we're probably "all wrong" since none of us have lived there, but my point so far hasn't been to defend Mandela or the ANC as much as to point out that American critics don't really have any right to point fingers about the way things are is SA. We have every right to disagree with him in his assessment of GWB (I don't) or US motives in attacking Iraq (I have mixed feelings about that). But to blame him for the ills of SA is patently wrong."

"I can see the criticizm of the fact that he aligned himself with communists. At the time, no one else was supporting 3rd world revolutions. Certainly not the US. The assertion that the US had a big role in bettering the lot of the black majority of SA is a joke. The US steadfastly traded with and morally supported the apartheid regime. Congress did finally, after many years of campaigning by human rights groups, and over the veto of Ronald Reagan, institute a weak set of sanctions in the early 80s IIRC. That was probably one of the last straws that finally moved the Botha regime to release Mandela and begin negotiating and end to apartheid. But the US govt was far behind most of the world, including a lot of US cities and pension funds in divesting from SA.

Since the change of power, the bloodbath that many predicted failed to happen. That country has a lot of major problems, as does the rest of Africa, not all but a lot the legacy of it's colonial past."

Your statement would lead any rational being to believe that:

a) Sanctions were a positive step in the getting rid of apartheid.

Yes, people of your ilk decided that sanctions were a good idea, but they never thought of the following things.

1) How badly would they impact the people they were trying to help?
2) Would the liberals who employed the sanctions be ready to employ pressure on the people to re-invest in South Africa when the government changed hands?

As far as I can tell, the left in this country declared moral victory, and wiped thier hands of this affair. That's right, people of your ilk only held the "white" people to account, and would never do the same for the blacks. Now we have a degenerating situation, with a government that may care less for the blacks then the whites ever did. And things may be worse for everyone. It is one of those situations that speaks volumes about how the left will only come half way.

b) It was not Botha who released Mandela, it was F.W DeClerk. The one man who gets zero credit for having the courage to do what needed to be done.

This man, saw the reality of the situation and did something about it. DeClerk (His name means the Church) performed a feat of statesmanship that history will judge may dwarf many others. DeClerk, almost single handedly, changed the direction of South Africa, and at the same time doomed himself to political death. Somehow, I doubt you give him credit.

Look, I do not mean to attack you, but to me you represent a group that declared war on an evil you didn't understand, in a situation about which you had no clue, claimed moral victory when the problem had only begun to resolve itself, and now asserts blindness to the very real problems that happen there. It is through the framework that you erected that ensures that we cannot talk about, let alone do anything about this problem.

And people, people I know and love will pay the price for this myopia. As we will if we listen to you about Iraq.

[clem]

Mandela calling Bush a "racist", ain't that like the "pot calling the kettle black"?

Give me a break!

[Malone LaVeigh]

pp,

Believe it or not, I might have a perspective that allows me to understand a thing or two about the situation. I grew up in apartheid-era Mississippi. My family were members of the landed "gentry"", though by our generation, quite fallen from their former glory and pretty much middle class. Still, we always had black servants in the house, and white-coated, black waiters at the Country Club.

I'm saying all of this to give you a graphic image of the culture I grew up in. It's not something I'm proud of. My brother, a cousin and I still own the plantation where our slave-owning great-grandfather is buried.

I lived through the US civil rights movement. Of course I know all whites and all blacks aren't the same. But I have a pretty good assessment of how people in privledged classes think. Like most Mississippians, I was almost violently against the civil rights movement at first. It wasn't until I was literally forced to attend high school with blacks that I opened my mind enough to realize that they're just humans like me. I've seen my home state transform from a rigidly tiered society to finally begining to become a modern society. It wasn't without a lot of pain and some period of dislocation along the way.

I also am very sure that the transformation finally happened because it was forced on the state from outside forces. Maybe US liberals are guilty of over-simplifying in believing that some of the same lessons from our civil rights struggle could be transfered to SA. But what would you have had us do? As people of conscience, should we have stood by and done nothing? (On this issue I'll readily identify myself as a liberal.)

I'm perfectly willing to believe that there wasn't enough follow through on our part after the regime change in SA. I somehow doubt, though, that it was liberals in Congress who were limiting foreign aid to Mandela's SA. I doubt that the pension funds and other investments that withheld their investments in SA continued to do so after the change. I'm sure there's more we could do. Would you join others in pressuring the current administration and Congress for more aid to SA? Do you know any ways normal, middle class Americans can make any difference in raising investments for SA? I'm all ears.

[jmbg29]

That's always the answer, isn't it? Steal (or convince others to steal for you) money at gunpoint to give it away to leftists because they just haven't "redistributed" enough of the money that they themselves already stole!

Mandela led his country from the first world into the turd world, let him lead it back.

I'll bet that S.A. doesn't recover for another 50 years.

[fallingblock]

Perhaps the error of the U.S. left was in supposing that the U.S. experience of the civil rights era could be applied to South Africa.
My own experience of living through the era was different to yours due to my rural Indiana location. I honestly did not physically see a 'person of color' until I was five years old.
I learned about the folly of racism in the Vietnam-War era U.S. Army....
how strange to be part of a system fighting yellow people with an army whose black and white people for the most part distrusted one another!

I agree that Mississippi probably needed to be dragged into the party, and there were plenty of folks in Indiana who resisted integration as well. Old predjudices die hard:(

But to suggest that the solution to S.A.'s problem was yet more aid or more support from the U.S. is perhaps disingenuous. The real problem was and is the collapse of an ordered (no matter how distasteful to most) society and the failure of the new leaders to resist/prevent tribal enmity and factionalization from tearing it apart.

What can be done to change the situation and address the massive problems?
I'm confident old Mandela hasn't a clue: cheap-shots at the U.S. aren't going to acheive anything of value for S.A. :rolleyes:

[pittspilot]

"Believe it or not, I might have a perspective that allows me to understand a thing or two about the situation. I grew up in apartheid-era Mississippi. My family were members of the landed "gentry"", though by our generation, quite fallen from their former glory and pretty much middle class. Still, we always had black servants in the house, and white-coated, black waiters at the Country Club."

Different time, different place. Your relatives never pointed north and wondered. This does not excuse Apartheid. You know, one of the weirdest things? Even while I hated apartheid, and hid my racial heritige, I understood why the institution existed. Is that a terrible thing to say? Is that something you would acknowledge?

"It wasn't until I was literally forced to attend high school with blacks that I opened my mind enough to realize that they're just humans like me. I've seen my home state transform from a rigidly tiered society to finally begining to become a modern society. It wasn't without a lot of pain and some period of dislocation along the way."

Yes, the south has made progress, although to listen to the Liberals at Davis one would think not. But the problems in South Africa are different. Far different.

"Maybe US liberals are guilty of over-simplifying in believing that some of the same lessons from our civil rights struggle could be transfered to SA. But what would you have had us do? As people of conscience, should we have stood by and done nothing? (On this issue I'll readily identify myself as a liberal.)"

Yes, I would far have preferred that American liberals would not have destroyed an economy in attempting to correct a situation that they had no idea about. It was a bad situation. Forcing it to resolve in the manner that liberals considered best in effect forced a utopian solution on a very imperfect situation. Occasionally you have to let countries work out thier problems. But if you were going to intervene, make sure you do so all the way. When the ANC dismantles the precious democracy you helped build, as they are starting to do, will you protest? I doubt it. Nor should you. The problem has no solution, but the policy of sanctions and of toleration for a violent Marxist replacement government (What, you didn't think the ANC would attempt to nationalize industries? You thought that they would step in and rule the country, and everything would be ice creams and orgasms?) has made a bad situation worse.

An what do I hear from the left? Deafening Silence. The right, at least did not pretend to know the answer to the problem.

" I somehow doubt, though, that it was liberals in Congress who were limiting foreign aid to Mandela's SA."

That aid would have gone one place, into the ANC's pocket.

"I doubt that the pension funds and other investments that withheld their investments in SA continued to do so after the change"

With Mandela and Mbeki blathering about nationalization of every industry, how can it be a shock that no one wants to invest? My major point is: You guys fought for sanctions. Don't even begin to tell me that your group has not fought to undo the damage sanctions have brought. As I have said before, deafening silence, and shrugs.

"Would you join others in pressuring the current administration and Congress for more aid to SA?"

No, because wealth transfer from American tax payers to corrupt ANC politicians will benefit no one.

"Do you know any ways normal, middle class Americans can make any difference in raising investments for SA? I'm all ears."

Here is a thought. Do nothing. Nothing should have been done in the first place. Everyone knew Apartheid had to die. Everyone knew it. If liberals had abondoned thier utopian visions and let the situation play out, maybe, just maybe, things would be better. But now, along with the ethnic hatreds that continue to fester and rot, there is a ruined economy to help things along. Solution? HAHAH. There is none. I don't think there was one in the first place. That's why I left. However, I hope this is a lesson to you and others of your ilk, that in trying to help, you may have made the situation beyond redemption.

[Gordon]

ML you take 'whiteman's guilt' to a whole new level. Why don't you set up a collective farm on your grandpappy's slave farm? Social engineering as attempts to model marxist societies in tribal areas don't work and yes anti white apartheid IS the official policy in Zim currently. It is coming to SA soon any bets? I'll bet $1000 with in 5 years or 3 to 1 within 3 years.SA HAD way more technology and infrastructure including 6 A bombs that I think Muslim countries would like to have the pieces from, so they can ride on that for a while. ML can you just imagine SA like ol Miss could of grown out of this racist BS like you managed to do? Personally I think the commies have just been good oppurtunists at seizing what was going to happen anyway: desegregation. A more friendly and orderly result COULD have been in another 10-20 years as the old boys died off, but then liberals could not take credit for bringing their appalling socialist monstrosity into being. I think tribal areas need some sort of 'supervision' to prevent what is going on now, perhaps keep on the reservation unless you go to college or some sensible thing to avoid the slaughters. The real tragedy is that the US doesnt take kindly to whites fleeing from persecution in africa and are basically barred here because of their color!

[Malone LaVeigh]

Is that a terrible thing to say? Is that something you would acknowledge?I think I acknowledged worse things about my past today.
But the problems in South Africa are different. Far different. well, you've had more experience in this matter, but I have to wonder. The US South in a lot of ways is just begining to recover from the Civil War. During Reconstruction, I think a lot of people would have said a lot of the same things about the South that you say about SA now. The corruption and social shift was intolerable to the whites, and they reasserted theit power through a terror campaign. The result was the Jim Crow South that was an economic backwater for a century.
Yes, I would far have preferred that American liberals would not have destroyed an economy in attempting to correct a situation that they had no idea about. It was a bad situation. Forcing it to resolve in the manner that liberals considered best in effect forced a utopian solution on a very imperfect situation. Occasionally you have to let countries work out thier problems. I have never been convinced that sanctions are all that effective, really. Are you saying sanctions really destroyed the economy? It's not like we embargoed the country and pressured trading partners, like we're still doing with Cuba. As far as letting countries work out their problems, how is not trading with a country an act of interference? Sure there was a lot of social and some economic pressure, but was it that effective? I don't place a lot of stock on those that claim sanctions are killing thousands of Iraqis, either. And if you want to see some interference, you should see what we did to Vietnam, Chile, El Salvador, Guatemala or Nicaragua.
When the ANC dismantles the precious democracy you helped build, as they are starting to do, will you protest? Probably.
The problem has no solution, but the policy of sanctions and of toleration for a violent Marxist replacement government (What, you didn't think the ANC would attempt to nationalize industries? You thought that they would step in and rule the country, and everything would be ice creams and orgasms?) has made a bad situation worse. What I see is a government made up of individuals, as governments are, who represent a spectrum of competence and rectitude. I also see that they're stuck between the population demanding opportunity for a better life and the ramifications of the flight of the middle and upper classes. The opportunities for corruption to work it's way in has got to be enormous. I haven't heard about a lot of nationalized industries. Not knowing how much of the economy was public before makes it hard to judge the outcome. Nationalizing some sectors of an economy may not automatically have a negative effect, but I have to defer to you on that one. Your pessimism is pretty depressing, though.
An what do I hear from the left? Deafening Silence. The right, at least did not pretend to know the answer to the problem. Well, that I do know a thing or two about. It's not true. There were strong lobbys in the US for both Rhodesia and South Africa. Mostly right wing, but also Israeli interests. I remember it well.
Nothing should have been done in the first place. Everyone knew Apartheid had to die. Everyone knew it. If liberals had abondoned thier utopian visions and let the situation play out, maybe, just maybe, things would be better. My problem with that is I grew up hearing the exact same words about slavery in the South. I have no doubt that attempts at progress can have disasterous unintended consequences. And the further away from the situation, the more likely that is to be the case. But on the other hand, I have examples like the civil rights movement, women's sufferage, and the antiwar movement. My personal experience is that I would never have changed if not forced to confront the truth.

I'm not trying to be overly argumentative here, pp, and I really respect your opinions. I have honestly learned a thing or two. But I wonder if you haven't grown bitter and fallen into blaming the wrong people for the problems of your country. So much of what you say sounds awfully familiar to me.

[fallingblock]

****************************************************
"And if you want to see some interference, you should see what we did to Vietnam, Chile, El Salvador, Guatemala or Nicaragua."
****************************************************
Malone, do you believe that helping the South Vietnamese was a bad thing in itself?

That assisting the Chileans avoid a continuing economic collapse of their nation was not 'good' for Chile?

That El Salvador was better off with the situation before any U.S. intervention?

And Guatemala the same??

Do you think the Sandinistas were improving the lot of Nicaraguans?

Or that it simply wasn't the concern of the U.S.?

If you feel such discomfort/guilt at being a citizen of the nation which you hold responsible for these alleged transgressions against your world view; have you considered relocating to another country? It might ease the frustration and indignation you seem to be experiencing :(

I'm not trying to roll out the old "love it or leave it'" triteness.
But the cataloging of a list of perceived 'bad' actions resulting from past national policy which you were powerless to affect may feed a resentment that clouds your judgement on current events. I have some personal experience with this phenomenon:)
P.M. me if you'd like.

[Russ]

Mandella was a Marxist and and the ANC, with him at it's head, was Marxist organization. That's why our left leaning press, ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN all fawn over him. We in America spent over a half a century, alot of lives and alot more treasure fighting the spread of Marxism. Nelson Mandella is not now nor has he ever been America's friend. Now he is a pitiful old man who should be commited to a nursing home so as not to embarrass himself further.

[2nd Amendment]

Mandela should have been left to rot in jail. As for SA, it was better off under Apartheid than it is under "self rule". The nation, like the rest of Africa, is disintegrating under the tribal mentality. The thing is that's probably as it should be. In their case freedom equals anarchy. They don't think like us and they don't act like us and the ultimate in racism is to believe they should.

Unfortunately, letting them be themselves equals a dead economy, dead weight and dead bodies in the street. The only potential bright spot is that eventually the whole of Africa will return to an underpopulated land of small warring tribes with no influence on the rest of the world and insufficient population to be a drain on everyone elses resources. The bad thing is there will still be people demanding we funnel in money and try to make them over in to us...without actually governing them because that would be unfair.

[Selfdfenz]

"The US South in a lot of ways is just begining to recover from the Civil War."

Please illuminate us with the details.

I was under the impression that certain areas in the SE US and Texas had been leaders in economic growth for some time now. About two+ decades.

The many industries that have relocated here must have come for the cheap hill-billy labor. I do so worry that we in the South may, in our un-recovered-from-Reconstruction condition, not be providing the many expatriots from the more advanced cultures of other states that have moved here the appropritate level of culture, refinement, liberated throught and enlightenment they need to flourish.
How, pray tell, can they lead us into the bright future beaten down by our unevolved anti-bellum culture.
My guess is SA has less culture and technology than it had. The current establishment either actively or passively is erasing it. The Marxist governemnet there benefits from a society more at stress than the opposite. SA will have to pass through decades of decay and unrest before things turn around but its much more likey they will make it no higher than Banana Republic-Entry Level.

ML
If you are still living in Mississippi you need to get out and travel some. You'll find your model of the poor, backward white trash Southerner is not in play to the extent that you believe it is.
Sadly I wish I could provide you with some kind of vechicle you could use to escape the white guilt and denegrating preception about the South that may have been accurate 40 years ago but not now. This construct is only championed by groups outside the South that will never accept that we have a better hold on equality here now than they do and the media does nothing to dispell the myth. BTW.....just because you were raised in a somewhat racist, landed gentry environment where do you get off making the assumption that was the universal way of the world on the 60's South?
S-

[jimpeel]

The fact is that S.A. was a desert that noone wanted to live in until the Afrikaners got there and discovered that the place was awash in gold and diamonds. After that, they couldn't stem the tide of people who all wanted the place, claimed it as their own, and also claimed that the Afrikaners stole it from them.

[BigG]

...a group that declared war on an evil you didn't understand... etc.

I couldn't get the whole segment to quote, but Pittspilot, I have to give you the prize for the most lucid and pertinent thought expressed on this thread, especially in keeping your head with all the misinformation, well intended I'm sure, that has been spewed. Salute!

[Mr. James]

Yes, pittspilot, excellent posts. Your pessimism is well-earned. I will keep your family and friends in my prayers. I have friends in PE - remarkable people. I worry about them.

[pittspilot]

Thank you for compliments.

Last one for me

"well, you've had more experience in this matter, but I have to wonder. The US South in a lot of ways is just begining to recover from the Civil War. During Reconstruction, I think a lot of people would have said a lot of the same things about the South that you say about SA now. The corruption and social shift was intolerable to the whites, and they reasserted theit power through a terror campaign. The result was the Jim Crow South that was an economic backwater for a century.'

Except for one major difference. When I spoke of pointing north, I meant Mozambique, I meant Zambia, I meant Uganda, and the Congo, and the overwhelming numbers of countries that are disasters. There was the feeling amongst the Whites, that this was it. After this, there was the Atlantic ocean. There was no place else to go. And these people have been living in this country as long as American had been living in America. Most White and Black South Africans wanted a solution that did not degenerate into what almost every other African nation had become.

This is NEVER discussed amongst the elite in this country, or if it is, it is dismissed a racist Afrikaaner justification for apartheid. The problem? Yes, there were many racist Afrikaaners (I occasionally tasted their fists) but the truth of the proposition stood. If you were to be led by a majority black government, could it remain democratic, free, and functional? The jury is out, for some, and almost out for me. The South never faced this problem.

"I have never been convinced that sanctions are all that effective, really. Are you saying sanctions really destroyed the economy? It's not like we embargoed the country and pressured trading partners, like we're still doing with Cuba. As far as letting countries work out their problems, how is not trading with a country an act of interference? Sure there was a lot of social and some economic pressure, but was it that effective? I don't place a lot of stock on those that claim sanctions are killing thousands of Iraqis, either. And if you want to see some interference, you should see what we did to Vietnam, Chile, El Salvador, Guatemala or Nicaragua."

The sanctions were devastating. The economy gegan to nosedive in 1980, and has never recovered. Remember that South Africa was denied direct access to United States markets, and was subjected to extremely high oil prices. The imposition of these pressures brought to bear on many of the best and the brightest, that there was no future in South Africa. Many, if not most, left. Especially the young. The result is what you would expect of any country that suffers a massive exodus of its elite. This includes Black and White, and continues to this day. In fact, with the young it has accellerated to those countries which will still accept them.

"What I see is a government made up of individuals, as governments are, who represent a spectrum of competence and rectitude. I also see that they're stuck between the population demanding opportunity for a better life and the ramifications of the flight of the middle and upper classes. The opportunities for corruption to work it's way in has got to be enormous. I haven't heard about a lot of nationalized industries. Not knowing how much of the economy was public before makes it hard to judge the outcome. Nationalizing some sectors of an economy may not automatically have a negative effect, but I have to defer to you on that one. Your pessimism is pretty depressing, though."

The problem is the lack of competence and the lack of rectitude. The current government is either blind to the catastrophe that thier policies will bring, or they do not care. Either way, the result will be the same. And this naturally does not even begin to consider the AIDS nightmare. And most industries are not nationalized for the single reason that they are barely financially solvent, and the government doesn't want thier debts. There are a number of successful industries, but they manage to fleece the politicians to keep them at bay.

I will give you one look at what may be salvation. It's a slim hope, but it's one to hang on to. When I was there in 2000, the Cape Area was having elections. The ANC did not do very well against a new contender. This party was a coalition of the Cape Coloureds, the Indians, middle class blacks, and the Chinese. It was not unusual to see these groups together, save for the Blacks. This seems to indicate a trend, that I even noticed around Pretoria and Johannesburg. There is a growing black middle class. They are the primary prey of the criminals. They have been down, and climed up, and know how far they can fall. They also understand that whites can, and want to help them. They are also beginning to understand that the current government will destroy the infrastructure of the country if the current path is followed.

However, as I have stated. The ANC is taking steps to limit the political power of these class, and is even leveraging thier status on continued political support. This is a familar pattern, and I feel that no one will notice, out of concerns for sensitivity, until it is far to late.

"My problem with that is I grew up hearing the exact same words about slavery in the South. I have no doubt that attempts at progress can have disasterous unintended consequences. And the further away from the situation, the more likely that is to be the case. But on the other hand, I have examples like the civil rights movement, women's sufferage, and the antiwar movement. My personal experience is that I would never have changed if not forced to confront the truth."

My problem with the forcing of the truth is that it frequently causes undesirable consequences. The plight of the black in America is not good. The addition of civil rights was a step in the right direction, but the left has exhausted all of its remedies for race relations in this country. We should thank them for that, and move on with the business of teaching the blacks to become a strong, financially and socially, community. This is the same as in South Africa.

South Africans will talk about thier dark skinned brethren in a manner that would shock and dismay any sensitive American in the group. Heck, they are racists, I know that. But the Whites in South Africa know that thier very lives depend on the fact that thier black brethren quickly find a suitable form of government that will allow them all to succeed in one of the world's toughest ethnic co-mingling experiments. In this way, I actually think South African are less racist then thier American cousins. By staying, white South African are literally saying that they think the black government can pull this off. You may say, they have no choice. But you do when faced with the barrel of a gun. I point your attention to Zimbabwe as an example.

Curiously, does that make me more racist, because I am pessimistic? Ahhh, who the hell knows. But I do know that the scars of my experience make me look at matters of race and ethnicity in a way that very few others do.

[fallingblock]

for that cogent analysis of S.A.'s problems and hopes from one who has lived them.

I know many fine South Africans both here in Australia and New Zealand, of whatever race, and they seem to share many of your views. One that I find almost universal among them is a sadness that they had to leave what is a beautiful land with so much potential. When I reflect on these people- doctors, optometrists, dentists, lawyers and agribusinessmen, it becomes obvious that the loss to S.A. has been damaging, to say the least.
I don't know how I would 'hold up' under the situation myself, but those of you who have made the exodus and are rebuilding your lives are certainly fighters in the best sense of the word:)

[Malone LaVeigh]

I was under the impression that certain areas in the SE US and Texas had been leaders in economic growth for some time now. About two+ decades. I don't know where you get your impressions, but don't buy any stock based on their recommendations. Even if that were true, the last 20 years would just illustrate my point. The South has lagged the rest of the nation for the last century and a half. I'm not going to bother looking up refs.

The many industries that have relocated here must have come for the cheap hill-billy labor. Actually, for every industry that relocates there, two leave for Indonesia. No, I'm not being exact there, and don't have the exact numbers. But I read my hometown newspaper, and I count a lot more industry leaving than locating there.

If you are still living in Mississippi you need to get out and travel some. You'll find your model of the poor, backward white trash Southerner is not in play to the extent that you believe it is. You could not have misinterpreted what I said more. Obviously, I was talking about the South I grew up in, to draw the comparison with SA. I made the point that there has been tremendous social progress, and I'm living proof.

The fact is that S.A. was a desert that noone wanted to live in until the Afrikaners got there and discovered that the place was awash in gold and diamonds.This is a myth that every conquering nation uses to justify it's colonization. It should be pretty easy to dispell. pp? How much of SA is a "desert?"

I keep coming back to two things:

1) This discussion began with Mandela. Whatever you think of his politics or history, or his opinions on the US, he is not the president of SA anymore. That in itself is a remarkable thing. The leader of the revolutionary movement was democratically elected, served his term, and then relenquished office to his successor. How often does that happen in Africa? Or any post-revolutionary government? Of course, it's still a perilous trek. There's still a big chance things can go wrong. But the political developments pp talks about can only be possible if there is a functioning electoral system there.

2) I can't accept what I hear coming from a lot of folks (not pp) here that the mass of black Africans are just fundamentally inferior humans. That they are somehow incapable of governing themselves. That it is just the white man's burden to govern and care for poor benighted Sambo. If that's not what's being said, I apologize, but that's what it sounds like to me.

[2nd Amendment]

I don't think anyone said Africans were inferior or incapable. But why is it we define capability by our standards. They are not us. If tribal government and society is what they prefer I'd say it's equally racist for us to demand they do it our way as it is to say they aren't smart enough. Our forms of governance aren't exactly panning out to be the cure-all for the human race, either.

[fallingblock]

****************************************************

"I can't accept what I hear coming from a lot of folks (not pp) here that the mass of black Africans are just fundamentally inferior humans. That they are somehow incapable of governing themselves. That it is just the white man's burden to govern and care for poor benighted Sambo. If that's not what's being said, I apologize, but that's what it sounds like to me."

****************************************************
I don't believe I said anything even remotely resembling that:D

This 'race-card' playing is as tiresome (and unhelpful) from the left as it is from the right:)

Mandela is not a 'hero' to me...just a tired old ideologue whose time is up. We should note what pp said about the ANC trying to limit the power of 'middle-class' contenders from the Cape...Mbeki may be an elected successor to Mandela, but if the elections are rigged...and this is where the ANC will fail the people and the nation:uhoh:

[pittspilot]

"pp? How much of SA is a "desert?"

South Africa has many different regions. Deserts that are sand, to dense Jungles. It's a breathtaking country. Most of it though, is Savannah Grassland

One thing I do want to bring up to point out to ML

The Blacks, as you should be aware, represent many different ethnic groups. There are Xhosa, Sotho, Zulu, etc. At the time that the Dutch landed at the cape(1600's), there were only Hottentot and Bushman living there. The Dutch, as they escaped the British, ran into the Bantu tribes midway up the country, and ran into the Zulu at the Borders of what used to be Natal. The Bantu tribes had been moving south, while the whites moved north. It is then not alltogether clear that the Blacks owned that land first (There are very few Hottentots and Bushman left). This historical fact is frequently glossed over.

However, it does make little difference to me because all the ethnicities will either sink or swim together, and dithering about historical injustices are a complete waste of time. And here I do not only talk Black and White. I mean Afrikaaner and Englishman, Xhosa and Zulu. They all have a historical axe to grind, and all have legitimate beefs. And in the end it may mean nothing.

[labgrade]

pittspilot, thanks.

Any credence to Mitchner's Covenant? I found the book well-written & very interesting - aside from any historial blunders.

Just curious on your take?

[Art Eatman]

Malone, I don't see it as racist to question why so many of Africa's political problems exist. Most of their leaders were educated in western universities. So many African countries have a resource base that could easily allow prosperity.

At least read the Appendices of Michener's "Caribbean". He speaks of a meeting of the leadership of many of the Caribbean nations. The great majority of these leaders were black. They questioned among themselves this same question, as to why it's so difficult for the predominantly black nations to properly deal with self-rule. Personally, I don't have any honest answer, one in which I really believe...Certainly no simple answer.

Art

[labgrade]

Art,

My simplistic answer is that "they" (& this definition spins through so many of the human condition - not just the current topical "them") aren't looking to prosper, but to "get over."

Prospering requires a forethought of what will come, & effort to make that happen, while "getting over" merely requires the victim mindset to suck from those who already have.

Through that process, "leaders" will emerge to ensure its proper distribution.

Does Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson come to mind?

& thanks for the correct spelling of Jimmy's name. ;)

[Jaco]

I have read posts of amazing exactness as well as some exremely naive posts.

But this South African's opinion of the new government including Mandela is simply very low.

And you must judge Africa by African standards, and cannot compare it to the US south. And if you get to know Africa, you would realise that it is a sad and beautiful continent, but with no place for whites. 'Tis as simple as that.....

[Glock Glockler]

Jaco,

You probably know more about South African history than I do, so can you clarify some things for me?

When the whites got to SA in the 1600s the only people there were Hotentots, who were dwarf-like and numbered approx. 50,000, and all of whom were annihilated in short order. The whites then moved North for many decedas until they go to the present border where they encountered the Zulus. The Zulus were a nomadic tribe that had been moving South for some time. Over time the Zulus were brought in as a labor force, but were not intended to be citizens.

Is that not why the blacks in SA, who overwhelmingly are Zulus, were not given the right to vote?

Malone makes SA to be so horrific for black, far worse than the Hollywood depicted, pre-civil rights era South, so why is it that so many blacks in the Southern part of the continent are trying to hard to illegally immigrate to SA? Because it's better than the craphole countries they live in! All this nonsense about making SA to be an equivilant of Nazi Germany is a bunch of romantic theater for guilt-ridden Westerners who are looking for some type of cause to rally behind so they can feel good about themselves, of course with no one expecting them to actually do a damn thing about it.

[agricola]

Harold Mayo:

Undermining? I already covered this. The UN should not have any say at all in our national affairs. And why should we listen to a goatherder from Ghana? He may be an educated leader in his own nation but he's still not very far removed from running around in a loincloth trying to gather in his nannies.

Sorry, but this kind of uninformed comment has no place in any kind of civil discussion. One of my best friends is from Ghana and is very proud that his country is the most stable, successful and free state in the whole of Africa.

[Cosmoline]

Mandela needs to join up with Sen. Byrd and march together into the Atlantic Ocean. A worthless old communist and a worthless old racist. The world would be better off without them.

[Duncan Idaho]

Labgrade and Cosmoline both nailed it.

[NIGHTWATCH]

We deserve it, this kind of sick rhetoric , because we allow it. :banghead:

What has Bush done? Promise billions to aid in Africa. :rolleyes: These nations should be kissing our ???.

Screw every nation that speaks this way about my country! Im tired of seeing my tax dollars lining the pockets of those who would spit on us. :fire:

What we need to do is pull out of the world. Stop being a global cop and let em at each other. Let the world and our enemies kill each other.

[HBK]

Technically, the ANC WAS a terrorist organization. Mandela is lucky he wasn't executed. He should be thankful that the SA government didn't have the balls to hang him and doubly thankful that the US helped get his sorry butt out of jail.
Oh yeah, before anyone bitches about Mandela being a revolutionary and a leader, what do you think would have happened to George W if he had been caught by the British?

[Glock Glockler]

Oh yeah, before anyone bitches about Mandela being a revolutionary and a leader, what do you think would have happened to George W if he had been caught by the British?

Making a comparison between Washington and Mandela is like comparing chicken salad and chicken sh*t. Last time I checked Washington didn't blow up schools.

[HBK]

My point exactly.

[Jaco]

Glock Glockler

SA history in a nutshell

- 1652 - whites arrive for colonization in Cape Town area, Western Cape
- At that stage the Western Cape is inhabited by Bushmen and Hottentot
- With the spread inland contact is made with the black or Bantu groups, firstly the South Nguni (Xhosa speaking). Afterwards the other Nguni tribes follow, namely the Zulu, Ndebele etc., and the Sotho and Venda groups.
- Series of wars between the Dutch/French/English/Sotho/Hottentot/Zulu/Xhosa/Mfengu follows over the next centuries.
- Anglo Boer War is around 1900, first use of concentration camps in modern war. British put Afrikaner women and children in concentration camps, starve them, feed them broken glass in bread, etc etc.
- WWI - Afrikaner violently anti-British because of Anglo Boer War atrocities.
- WWII- Afrikaners fight on the Allies sides
-1948 - Afrikaners take over government, and the British is finally kicked out. Beginning of "seperate development", the so called Apartheid.
-1950's- The hey days of communism, and communist insurgence starts all over Africa, including the ANC. In SA the bombings and killings start.
-1994 - Governement taken over by the pro communist ANC, and economical and social decline starts, together with rampant violent crime, Aids, and the start of the disamarment of the civil population, with no increase in police protection.

Was apartheid so bad? I don't know, each one experiences anything different. Apartheid is used now for an excuse to enrich the black elite, and to discriminate against whites. What is happening at this stage against whites is no different that happened against the blacks in the Apartheiod era, except more are killed now. And of course the whites have not started en masse to blow things up, go into public places shooting everyone in sight.

Comparing SA with Nazi Germany is nothing but highly naive, from someone who clearly never studied history.

The argument that land is actually the group's possesion who lands there first cannot unfortunately ever hold water. If that were the case there is supposed to be no Caucasians anywhere except Europe (which means, my friends, that most of you have to please leave the States as soon as possible), no blacks except in Africa, there is supposed to be no Chinese in Taiwan, no whites in Australia, half of the UK has to go back to Scandinavia, etc.

[Jaco]

pittspilot

It is FW de Klerk, not deClerk, and it means Clerk, not Church. Church is Kerk.

[roscoe]

Was apartheid so bad? I don't know, each one experiences anything different.

Uuuuhhh . . . yeah, apartheid was so bad. Check the record of the T&C commission. I am sure we could both find a lot of examples of bad things done by bad people. State sponsored terrorism and torture are bad (even if things are not so great right now). It was a historical inevitability that it would happen - you try and keep ~95% of the country disenfranchised and and employed as a 'servant' population and you will ultimately have to resort to that sort of thing.

Sure, things might be worse for you and quite a few others, but it has only been 10 years and in the perspective of history, that is pretty quick. I am actually impressed that things are not a lot worse, Mbeki aside. Incidentally, I think Mandela is the one who kept the whites from fleeing with their money, thereby keping the country together; I just hope there is someone better than Mbeki in the wings.

Let us hope it does not become another Zimbabwe . . .

[HBK]

I bet you'll see whites, the ones that have enough money and are able, leave Africa like rats of a sinking ship.

[Glock Glockler]

roscoe,

Why should the Zulus be able to vote as citizens if they are invited into the country for labor purposes? It's not their country any more than Germany belongs to Turks that they invote in to be guest workers, or Mexicans that we may let in, so how are you disenfranchising them?

If aparteid was so bad why were so many Africans from other countries trying so hard to illegally immigrate to SA?

[Khornet]

Not seeing much of you these days.

For conveninece, simply insert predictable Khornet response to your points here:




Now, didn't that save us both a bunch of time?

[Duncan Idaho]

Now, didn't that save us both a bunch of time?Khornet, do you mind if I try that with Malone? It's positively brilliant! :D

[seeker_two]

Khornet: Very witty response there...

Mind if I use that w/ agricola? Would contain more content than most arguements he's used before...:evil:

[Khornet]

Not meant to insult Malone, Agricola, or St Johns for that matter. Just that we so predictably come down on opposite sides of questions. I just got lazy.

[six 4 sure]

Wow, this has to be one of the best threads I have ever read. It really opened my eyes. I actually thought I knew a little about South Africa. Boy was I wrong.

A few years ago I applied for a couple of jobs in SA. Being a mining engineer I thought it would be a great opportunity/career move. However, after doing a little research I decided it probably wasn’t the best place for a white American. I heard several stories about how beautiful the country is, and the chance to visit Africa sounded very romantic.

It’s disturbing that the country has declined to its current state. I too think it has great potential. However, I’m not booking any plane tickets soon. I worked with an engineer that immigrated from SA back in the 80’s. He too is concerned about its present condition and worries about the family he left behind.

I wish I were insightful enough to suggest a solution. But, I’m not sure there is one.

six

[pittspilot]

Originally posted by Jaco


pittspilot

It is FW de Klerk, not deClerk, and it means Clerk, not Church. Church is Kerk.

You are correct. Must have lost my mind for a second.

I would assume that you agree with most else of what I said.

Where are you from in SA. I grew up in Pretoria, and Jo'burg.

[Stevie-Ray]

I've always thought of Nelson Mandela the same as I think about Sharpton or Jackson. That is, I try very hard not to think of them.

[Russ]

Mandela is a Marxist. Every country who has tried Marxist philosphy has been a failure. Just as the Soviet Union failed, so eventually will the ruling powers in China and Cuba. They never get past the first part being the dictatorship of the prolitariate.

Mandela's heros are likely Lenin, Stalin, Mao and good old Fidel. Evil comes in all skin colors.

[Harold Mayo]

Wow...didn't know that this thread was still around. I'd taken it off of my watch list.

Agricola, Ghana was picked at random and no one was meant to be offended. Still, what I said is truth. Nothing against Ghana but the operative phrase in what you said is "in Africa". Prosperity as an African nation compared to other African nations means very little.

Six 4 sure...a mining engineer? Where'd you go? I got my mining engineering degree from UMR. The former department head there spent many years working in South Africa and loved it. Of course, he was part of the "establishment" and benefited from apartheid so his view is very different from others. Still, my conversations with him form most of my knowledge of SA. A friend of mine went there for a summer to work for one of the mining houses and the rest of my knowledge is from him. He went in 1991 or so and said that he never had any fear of anything while there. He even went into places where he shouldn't have gone by himself and said that the people weren't all that bad...no worse than those in bad urban areas of our own country (which, admittedly, can be pretty bad).

[roscoe]

I guess I figured this was dead, too, but lo and behold . . .

Glock Glockler,

Why should the Zulus be able to vote as citizens if they are invited into the country for labor purposes? It's not their country any more than Germany belongs to Turks that they invote in to be guest workers, or Mexicans that we may let in, so how are you disenfranchising them?

If aparteid was so bad why were so many Africans from other countries trying so hard to illegally immigrate to SA?

You got a couple of non-sequetors goin' in there.

The Zulus have been in SA for a long time; I don't know why you think they are guest workers. (The Voortrekkers and British both had to beat back Zulu armies to get their land.) Sure, the Mines and Works Act pretty much legally constrained black workers to menial work, but they were not guest workers. Unless, you are referring to the the 'homeland' reserves onto which millions were forced and the passbooks the blacks were required to carry when working in white lands.

SA is and was been the wealthiest country around, so migration is a natch. Plus, there were a lot of wars people were fleeing. But, a lot more are trying to get in now.

I must say, I am pretty unimpressed that anyone could be defending apartheid. I mean, it is one thing to say that corruption and crime are way out of hand and could sink the country economically, or that Mbeki has been a pretty pathetic president, or that things are going to hell in a handbasket up in Zimbabwe. All those things are true.

But to defend apartheid is to defend the philosophy of the Nazis (sorry Jaco, I have to disagree). The ideology was identical except they kept the inferior race around as sub-human servants rather than killing them (unless they dared speak their minds). The same eugenic justifications were made and they were just as pathetic in SA as they were in Germany. Even anthropologists were constrained from equating the mental powers of black Africans with whites.

Yeah, things are bad now, but they were plenty worse before. I mean, get real . . . people around here about having freedom, and rights, and worry about government oppression every time the tax rate wobbles up a point. I doubt too many here know what government oppression can really be like when you have no rights.

Jaco, I am not trying to start a scrap, but the inferiority of your race and an explicit policy of preventing your race from speaking out politically, or getting an education or adequate medical care, or voting, or owning decent property simply does not exist in the current SA law, but it did for black Africans. You have a right to complain, but to equate your treatment now with theirs before is simply absurd.

[Jaco]

Roscoe,

I mean REALLY! You call it absurd? How many of your friends have been killed and raped in the past month because of their skin colour?


Pittspilot

I grew up near Cape Town, and is living in the Boland Region now.

[roscoe]

Jaco,

None, but that is not the point. Those acts are illegal, whether or not enforcement is forthcoming. Under apartheid, it was not just legal for blacks to get killed if they in any way countervened the government, it was policy.

I am not debating whether things are bad, I know they are (from personal experience), but I am saying that the apartheid regime was about as bad as government gets, and quite intentionally so (also from personal experience). You could argue that the current ANC government is, by deliberate neglect, allowing many bad things happen to whites. I wouldn't argue that some in the ANC are doing just that.

But the fact is, the government would have to do some incredibly bad things to approach what the apartheid regime did. I mean, we are talking about forcing millions onto reservations, constraining every aspect of their lives, torturing and killing (by the government). That is repression on a mass scale, all justified by a completely, hopelessly, morally bankrupt philosophy.

And, if you want to trade horror stories about apartheid, you let me know. I've got a few.

[Jaco]

Forcing millions into reservations? What country is that?

Damn, I knew I shouldnt have gone to live with the people in that "reservations" voluntarily for a year.....