Would you like to have a double stack 7.62x25 pistol?


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el Godfather
August 16, 2012, 08:20 PM
Dear THR:
Would you like to have a double stack 7.62x25 pistol?

My answer is definately yes. I am surprised as to why this has not been done commercially. A nice polymer say by Glock or FN (like 5.7x28) would be great to have. Even one in Sig Sauer P229 would be ideal, especially with enhance elite grips.

I would not hesitate picking one up. Good energy an velocity, thus excellent peneteration.

And no grip wont be absurdly thick.
What do you think?

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rule303
August 16, 2012, 08:49 PM
I'd probably have to buy one, but most people wouldn't. I think it would be a fun range gun, but pretty impractical. It would have to be in a Sig or CZ-75 type pistol for me. Why have a 100yd capable auto pistol, and then ruin it with a striker fire trigger?

el Godfather
August 16, 2012, 09:35 PM
In Sig Sauer 229 Enhanced Elite it would have nice grip profile and awesome platform.

Tango57
August 16, 2012, 10:35 PM
I love bottle necked pistol rounds. Of course i would have to have one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk when i should have been doing something useful

Fiv3r
August 16, 2012, 10:41 PM
if 7.62x25 becomes an affordable round in newly manufactured ammo, then I would get totally down with a double stack in the caliber.

However, as it stands, the surplus round is becoming more and more "expensive" to shoot. I don't mind blasting away for $7 a box of ammo, but $17 for new production ammo is a little steep for a round with incredible concussion, flash, and potential over penetration. I don't mind in a $200 TT-33 clone, but I wouldn't pay a premium for it.

rcmodel
August 16, 2012, 10:41 PM
No.

The grip would have to be too big for me to get my hand around it.

The 7.62x25 is longer then any other commonly chambered pistol round except the .357/.44 mag Desert Eagle.

That makes a longer magazine necessary, and a bigger grip from front to back then just about any common handgun.
Double-stacking it would make it even bigger.

rc

el Godfather
August 17, 2012, 02:19 AM
I may get one custom made to see how it looks.

Skribs
August 17, 2012, 02:36 AM
Even though I wouldn't necessarily look into getting one, I voted yes, because I think modern pistols in 7.62x25mm Tokarev should be on the market.

I may get one custom made to see how it looks.

How much does it cost to get a gun completely custom made? When I am in a better financial position, it's something I'm willing to consider (since there is literally nothing on the market right now that fits my desired specifications perfectly).

Shadow 7D
August 17, 2012, 05:06 AM
Why not just get a 10mm?
I'd rather that than .357 sig, and while I really like the round, I think full bore 10mm has it in most if not all common usage, otherwise, except for AP, I'd take regular 9mm.

Shadow 7D
August 17, 2012, 05:33 AM
Why not just get a 10mm?
I'd rather that than .357 sig, and while I really like the round, I think full bore 10mm has it in most if not all common usage, otherwise, except for AP, I'd take regular 9mm.

el Godfather
August 17, 2012, 06:30 AM
Skribs
I am oversees and I am assuming it would cost around 2000$

Skribs
August 17, 2012, 06:39 AM
Shadow, I'd wager that the things that make the 7.62mm great against armor would also make it great against large 4-legged predators.

rcmodel
August 17, 2012, 12:41 PM
Then you would lose the wager.

Small caliber handguns didn't fly against calvary horses in 1904, and they still don't fly today with handgun hunters.

They were never a really satisfactory military round either unless used in a sub-machinegun.

That is one reason why the .30 Luger, .30 Mauser, or 7.62x25 are no longer used by any major military in the world.


High velocity and light bullets do no equal deep bone breaking, game killing penetration.

Only big bore handgun bullets and rifle bullets do that.

For a .30 cal bullet to be effective on big or dangerous game, it needs to be moving about twice as fast as a Tokrav bullet and weigh twice as much or more.

rc

bigfatdave
August 17, 2012, 01:21 PM
Isn't that why I bought a TCM pistol from RIA?

Not exactly the same round, but the same concept

Weevil
August 18, 2012, 03:23 PM
Well the biggest problem with 7.62 TOK is the cartridge length.

The reason we don't see a lot of guns made in this caliber or conversion barrels for it is that it's actaually longer than a .45acp.

The 10mm is the same length as .45acp thus it can be used in the same frames with the same mags that only need modified feed lips.

The 7.62 TOK not only needs totally different mags but a modified frame as well.



I'm not gonna stand on tippy-toes waitting for some gun-maker to go through all that trouble for a virtually obsolete old military cartridge, when you have calibers like .357 sig and 10mm that will work in existing platforms. Plus when all the dirt cheap surplus ammo dries up so will the interest and demand for pistols in this caliber.

Ash
August 18, 2012, 05:34 PM
That isn't the case at all. The Chinese and Vietnamese converted captured 1911's to 7.62x25.

The 30 Parabellum didn't do well because it was a weak round, comparatively. 7.62x25 did enormously well, adopted by numerous nations - albeit all communist.

7.62x25 is the same length as a 10mm, and so would chamber in 10mm handguns well. As pointed out in another thread, a Tanfoglio large-frame would handle 7.62x25 just fine, and those grips are quite comfortable. A 10mm magazine would handle 7.62x25 as well, meaning "an entirely new magazine" would not be needed.

rcmodel
August 18, 2012, 05:39 PM
7.62x25 is the same length as a 10mm,No, it actually isn't.

Max OAL of the 7.62x25 is 1.381".
Max OAL of the 10mm is 1.260"
Max OAL of the .38 Super is 1.280".
Max OAL of the .45 ACP is 1.275".

rc

Ash
August 18, 2012, 06:02 PM
Rc, I have both rounds. They are the same. Max OAL may be different, but when it comes to ammo, space in magazines, etc, they are the same.1/10 of one inch is easily accommodated by the magazine. If not, modification of the follower will correct that.

Weevil
August 18, 2012, 06:13 PM
Just what kind of 7.62 Tok are you comparing it too???


http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/srebough/100_0632.jpg

7.62 TOK Romanian......10mm Blazer........45acp WWB

Off my ammo shelf.

Clearly the TOK round is longer than the 10mm and .45acp.


Now I read about someone cutting the top off FMJ and that HPs will fit in .45 mags, but regular TOK FMJ is just too long to fit in a mag or magwell that has not been modified.

PabloJ
August 18, 2012, 07:07 PM
No. Glock makes wonderful double stack 10x25mm pistol and Modell 'SF' fits most hands nicely. Wee, wee.

Ash
August 18, 2012, 07:47 PM
Comparing mine to Bulgarian. It can be done no problem. It fits in the magwell of an ASAI One Pro, as well as a Springfield P9. Modify a 10mm magazine's follower and it would work.

Weevil
August 18, 2012, 08:19 PM
Comparing mine to Bulgarian. It can be done no problem.

Pics???


Or do I need to look and see if I have some Bulgarian cause I'm pretty sure I do.

Pic of the headstamp perhaps?



It fits in the magwell of an ASAI One Pro, as well as a Springfield P9.

Is that including the walls of a mag or a cartridge dropped in a empty magwell???

Pics?



Modify a 10mm magazine's follower and it would work.

Ooookay....and just how exactly does the follower need to be modified in order for it to make the 7.62 TOK cartridge shorter??


Pics????


Edited to add:

I tried a few mags in .45 and 10mm.

No way on 1911 mags of any brand the Tok won't go down past the front edge of the mag, same with an EAA .45 and a 10mm mag.

Now to your credit I was able to stuff them in a Glock 20 mag, but the front of the cartridge is sticking up at such a crazy angle I can't imagine it's going to feed correctly and reliably.

I can post pics if you want.

Ash
August 19, 2012, 08:05 AM
Weevil, you win. I'll walk away. I'm not going to get in a pissing match with you. I have them, and if you try to load just straight, it is tight. But if you redesign the follower to load them at more of an angle, it would work. The Chicoms did do it with 1911's as well.

But since you cannot accept what I have said or observed, then read the article below. I guess other people can convince you.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/02/15/7-62x25mm-conversion-for-1911-pistol/

Weevil
August 19, 2012, 12:52 PM
Ash did you actually read the article???


"There are a few drawbacks, though. Because 7.62◊25 is even longer than .38 Super,[/B you canít load the magazines to full capacity without seating the projectiles deeper in the case, which J&Gís gunsmith has done safely. However, Iím pretty happy with being able to load 6 standard-length 7.62◊25 cartridges in $10 Metalform .38 Super magazines with a stated capacity of 9 rounds."



They are angling six rounds into 9 round .38 super mags.

If you find this accerptable fine but I still stand behind my original post as to why gun makers are not offering new pistols in this caliber.


Well the biggest problem with 7.62 TOK is the cartridge length.

The reason we don't see a lot of guns made in this caliber or conversion barrels for it is that it's actaually longer than a .45acp.

The 10mm is the same length as .45acp thus it can be used in the same frames with the same mags that only need modified feed lips.

The 7.62 TOK not only needs totally different mags but a modified frame as well.


I'm not gonna stand on tippy-toes waitting for some gun-maker to go through all that trouble for a virtually obsolete old military cartridge, when you have calibers like .357 sig and 10mm that will work in existing platforms. Plus when all the dirt cheap surplus ammo dries up so will the interest and demand for pistols in this caliber.


While the Chinese or Vietnamese or you might accepted some sort of half-assed conversion that only holds 6 rounds stuffed in 9 round .38 super mags,
gunmakers aren't going to go through all the trouble to do it right.




And it is quite obvious even from the source you posted that 7.62 TOK is NOT the same length as 10mm.

That isn't the case at all. The Chinese and Vietnamese converted captured 1911's to 7.62x25.

The 30 Parabellum didn't do well because it was a weak round, comparatively. 7.62x25 did enormously well, adopted by numerous nations - albeit all communist.
[B]
7.62x25 is the same length as a 10mm, and so would chamber in 10mm handguns well. As pointed out in another thread, a Tanfoglio large-frame would handle 7.62x25 just fine, and those grips are quite comfortable. A 10mm magazine would handle 7.62x25 as well, meaning "an entirely new magazine" would not be needed.


You are wrong plain and simple.

Man up and admit it.

Ash
August 19, 2012, 02:57 PM
Weevil, as I said, different follower. Yeah, you don't have to have a different frame.

<deleted>

bigfatdave
August 19, 2012, 03:02 PM
weevil and ash, take it to PM, drop it, or post some pictures of the modifications needed

this is getting silly, the OP isn't even about modifying a 1911-pattern pistol

Sam1911
August 19, 2012, 03:38 PM
So this has clearly been carried past all reasonableness.

Done.

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