Honor system - Glock natural POA/POI range test drill


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bds
August 20, 2012, 02:51 AM
This is a follow-up "field test" polled thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=672920

And once again, I invite the participation of THR members who own Glocks using the honor system.

On your next range trip, please conduct the following drill (use full-size models if possible):

- Place a dot in the center of the target (flip the target paper so you are shooting at the blank back of the paper).

- Place the target at 3-7 yards (based on your level of comfort/competence of point shooting - if not sure, use 3 yards)

- Chamber a round in the Glock and place in your weak hand.

- Notice the dot and close your eyes.

- Point the pistol at the dot on target (COM) quickly and fire without hesitation or adjustment to grip.

Vote the Point-of-Aim (POA) vs Point-of-Impact (POI) placements.

The intent of this polled thread is to demonstrate what may happen during life-threatening close range SD/HD shooting situations in low-light conditions where fast draw/fire may have to be made without the aid of the sights.

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Inebriated
August 20, 2012, 04:13 AM
Question... why weak hand? If it's about quickly drawing, then firing, then it would be coming out of my holster on my strong side.

bds
August 20, 2012, 09:35 AM
In some SD/HD shooting situations, your strong hand could have been injured and you must shoot with your weak hand - Some IDPA/USPSA match shooting even incorporate stages with weak hand only shooting situations to illustrate this. We have had match stages where the entire stage had to be engaged (and magazines changed/slide racked) using only your weak hand.

When new shooters to Glock complain about the slide locking back before the magazine is empty, suggestion is made to shoot with left hand to eliminate the possibility that right hand thumb may be pushing up on the slide lock (the shooter will usually deny this and usually assume something must be wrong with the pistol). If the problem is not repeated with their left hand, it is their right hand thumb that's pushing up on the slide lock.

The suggestion to use the weak hand is to make the range drill as "natural" as possible as most Glock shooter don't shoot with their weak hand on a regular basis.

beatledog7
August 20, 2012, 09:41 AM
But some Glock shooters are left-handed. Their response to your poll will skew the results.

bds
August 20, 2012, 09:45 AM
beatledog7, the range drill requested is to test the weak hand (whether right or left).

Instead of making assumptions about the requested range drill, how about actually conducting the requested range drill and posting back on the thread?

I am really counting on the Glock owners to "man/woman up" and be honest about the range drill results.

beatledog7
August 20, 2012, 10:07 AM
bds,

I get the purpose of your drill.

My question relates to the slide lock issue you mentioned in post 3. Slide lock before empty, as you describe it, is not a problem for LH shooters. We'd be at risk only when shooting weak hand.

If premature slide lock caused by thumb drag is not part of the study, why did you mention it in post 3?

bds
August 20, 2012, 10:14 AM
I included that example to illustrate that many Glock owners may "assume" many things about what their Glocks actually do.

As you confirmed on your post, shooting with left hand will conclusively identify shooter-induced slide lock back, even when the Glock owner vehemently "assumed" it is not a shooter issue. ;)

And the intent of this polled thread is to verify and illustrate to the Glock owners (if they are honest), what their Glocks will actually do on live fire regardless what their assumptions are. I am simply helping Glock owners get more intimate with their pistols, just in case. :D

JohnBT
August 20, 2012, 10:18 AM
"Draw quickly with your weak hand"

Anybody own a weak-side holster to draw from?

bds
August 20, 2012, 10:21 AM
Sorry, I should have posted "Point the pistol at the dot on target (COM) quickly and fire without hesitation or adjustment to grip.". :(

OK, made the change to the OP.

2zulu1
August 20, 2012, 04:22 PM
I didn't participate in the thread poll nor have I experienced a slide lock back as described. However, there have been two times while carrying a G20 SF on my property that I've shot the heads off rattlers at close range.

Typically my experiences with rattlers is to focus on the area just behind their heads, draw and shoot strong hand only while moving toward the rattler and with the rattler moving. While most of my encounters have occurred while carrying 1911s in 38 Super, I've also had success with a Steyr M40-A1, S&W M686P and most recently a Browning Hi Power.

Thus far, I have experienced 100% success point shooting rattlers regardless of platform, in addition, if I've been with someone my weak hand grabs their hand/arm and they look for a second rattler.

The size of the moving target is about the same as a human adult thumbnail.

The Man With No Name
August 20, 2012, 06:52 PM
I have done this for years. At 3 yards I don't even bother with sites using either hand. At 7 I would get a flash site picture. I voted based on what I can do at 3 yards. Glock or whatever, everyone should practice (IMO) to the point where they are confident at 3 yards right out of the holster with either hand without sites.

45_auto
August 20, 2012, 07:54 PM
I've been doing this drill for about 20 years. At 3-7 yards my POI is the same as my POA whether I'm shooting a Glock, 1911, S&W 29, Ruger MkII, or anything else.

I regularly run the same scenario (about every other month) at our monthly IDPA matches. About half the people shoot to their POI, the other half shoot all over the target. Doesn't matter what kind of gun they're shooting.

allaroundhunter
August 20, 2012, 09:13 PM
I practice enough shooting weak hand that it doesn't matter what gun is in my hand, especially out to 7 yards. POA=POI.

Shooting weak handed is something that everyone should be proficient at, it is just like carrying a spare magazine. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it; both will leave you dead or seriously injured.

Andrew Wyatt
August 22, 2012, 12:55 PM
I'm not sure what the point is. there's no cause for shooting with your eyes closed.

hardluk1
August 23, 2012, 07:00 PM
Other than drawing left handed I also don't find any difference . My only issue with a glock is the different angle of grip to slide that my other daily carry pistol have. Maybe I should say any other pistol has. I don't have the eye sight I had in years gone buy but basichandgun skill are fine . I do practice shooting with out focusing on the sight at close range, 3 to 7 yards. Just plan ole point shooting.
Maybe I should have voted for the last one.

CZguy
August 24, 2012, 12:28 AM
Other than drawing left handed I also don't find any difference . My only issue with a glock is the different angle of grip to slide that my other daily carry pistol have. Maybe I should say any other pistol has.

My Steyr M9-A1 has the same grip angle, just more refined. ;)

bds
August 24, 2012, 10:43 PM
Any Glock owners planning to do this range drill this weekend?

David E
August 24, 2012, 11:49 PM
No. The first two threads were interesting. This one isn't.

GLOOB
August 25, 2012, 03:24 AM
I went shooting the other day and didn't bring any of my handguns. Had a rifle, only, day. But reading this thread, it occurred to me to share this:

I decided to do some "point-shooting" with my .22LR bolt action, something akin to how I shoot shotguns and do rapidfire and/or moving targets with handguns. By shouldering the gun low I could cant the barrel up. Visually, I would just place the tip of the barrel an inch or two under my intended POI. Something akin to shooting a shotgun. Acquire target = bang. Had a lot of fun kicking around shotgun hulls at short range. The grip angle is not a handicap of the Glock. It's a feature. :)

Bobson
August 25, 2012, 03:40 AM
Question... why weak hand? If it's about quickly drawing, then firing, then it would be coming out of my holster on my strong side.
I was wondering the same thing, for the same reason.

I'm also wondering what problem the OP has with Glocks. I understand the grip angle is different and uncomfortable for certain people; but with two different polls now, and answers that are phrased so ridiculously, I have to wonder what's up.

Possible Poll Answers:
1) If you did it and it worked for you, you're lying.
2) If you did it and it really did work for you, keep doing it and then tell us if you maybe got lucky the first time.
3) If you did it and it didn't work for you, you got the right answer.
4) I didn't do it because the OP has an agenda.

Seriously. Do tell, OP. What's with the blatant agenda?

BTW, I'm not a Glock fanboy. Don't even own one. Just curious, and would be if these polls were about 1911s, SIGs, or anything else.

TAKtical
August 25, 2012, 03:43 AM
None of my glocks ever shoot POA=POI. At 25 yards my 17 shoots 4 inches high. Other models vary from 2-6 inches high. This test proves nothing. I dont have a single pistol that shoots POA=POI except my trp operator that has adjustable sight that I have zeroed for 25 yards. Ive read the test 3 times and I still dont understand what this proves.

bds
August 25, 2012, 09:10 AM
Seriously. Do tell, OP. What's with the blatant agenda?
OK, OK. I will come clean and tell you my "agenda". :D

I am a Glock "fanboy" who also loves 1911/Sig/M&P. Although I started out match shooting (USPSA) with 1911/Sig 226, I switched to Glock 17 after I got faster stage times than Sig 226 (yeah, it's true - almost brought tears to my eyes to admit that the first time). When 40S&W became more popular as a match caliber, to better meet major/minor power factor requirements, it became my match caliber to this day (17 years).

I grew up/live in metropolitan cities where robbery/burglary/home invasion robbery/gang violence are common daily occurrence and focus my shooting training/practice with SD/HD in mind (I have been burglarized several times and walked-in/apprehended one in the act inside my home!).

RO/USPSA SO who also taught PD/SD/SWAT did defensive/tactical/point shooting instructions to some of local USPSA match shooters before he retired. He took us through the same SWAT training setups with low light/smoke and told us that sighted "front sight flash" shooting we used for match shooting may not always be the viable defensive shooting option and we must master fast draw unsighted point shooting as well (with both strong/weak hands). BTW, my initial unsighted POI was higher than POA. But with deliberate training/practice, now I can produce same POI with POA.

He would allow us to observe "seasoned" LEO SWAT trainees start their training and pointed out that often officers would aim low/shoot the floor in recoil anticipation or POI deviated from POA (even at close ranges) with their Glock 22s. He would spend the start of their SWAT training "undoing" the assumptions and habits about their on/off duty Glocks based on the holes on targets of low light situation setup they engaged. Many officers were surprised by their results and he would tell them "holes don't lie" and they had to accept that reality in order to train properly.

We even did "night" shootings to verify the effects of muzzle flash of various factory JHPs and I guess smokeless powder flash suppressants work because the flash size/duration was less than what we anticipated. Night sights were less effective than we all had hoped for as we were instructed to keep our eyes on the targets and stock sights were useless in low light conditions. He clearly demonstrated the need for unsighted fast draw point shooting for defensive shooting situations. On some USPSA practice range days, front sights were removed from our Glocks to run the stages unsighted - my first run, can you say "Humbling experience?"

The reason for fast draw eyes closed weak hand point shooting drill is to verify the natural point shooting one may do under panic defensive shooting situation (of course, most of us do the same drill with our "trained" strong hand). It may be an uncomfortable exercise for some shooters but I consider it an essential part of my defensive point shooting drill practice I conduct at each range session along with my strong hand sighted drills (better to be prepared than get caught with your pants down ... just in case).

I was a small minority when I switched to Glock platform for match shooting but now Glock is the majority at most matches, especially for the Production division. When I hear shooters brag about how well their Glocks shoot, I have them try several unsighted strong/weak hand drills and many are surprised by the result. Had they done the same in SD/HD situations, they may have missed their targets. For me, accuracy is everything and holes on target speak volumes. No, missed shots don't count - at matches or in real life.

My agenda? Just to offer another range drill to benefit Glock owners.

As to 1911/Sig/M&P, I still love them but hated M&P's old factory trigger - but as of this summer, S&W fixed the triggers on 9/40 M&P and later for 45 M&P (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=674250).

BTW, 1911s (with arched/flat main spring housing), Sigs, M&Ps and even my Taurus SA/DA PT145 sights have always pointed/shot to the same POA/POI for me.

Bobson
August 25, 2012, 02:13 PM
Interesting. So I was right - you do have an agenda! lol jk; thanks for sharing the backstory, man.

hardluk1
August 25, 2012, 03:09 PM
I have few issue with pointing shooting , eyes closed or open than I do with differnt trigger pulls. I, like lots of guys have many diffent handguns and find with haveing many types of handguns and spending enought time with each that they will point where they need to be. Our glock is my wifes now but just to see if your tread means anything to me I did walk out back and fired a few rounds eyes closed. Poa and poi where close enough to be where it needs to be on a hunman outline at 25 feet not to matter. All upper chest double taps. Now with just a few pulls of the glocks trigger I have go out and fire a few rounds to retune to my long trigger of my CC pistol. Aim is fine with it too but lower and left for the first 4 rounds . Then double taps come back up.

If a person carries a glock, sig , steyr , colt or what ever then it should natural and be able to "point it with ether hand and place rounds mid chest relyably. If not the person or training is a at fault. But like in real life many law enforcement departments have people with firearms that are not up to speed and that does seem to be more norm than the other way around. I feel to that the trigger pull weight that some departments require can affect how well many shoot. 10 11lb trigger pulls can make handguns shoot low and to the side too. Under stand to I have grown up hunt with a sheriff and his officers rode bikes with and spent to many afternoons at the ranges with them for 20 years. Shooting comes natural to some and never to others.

Now run in and get your sig and see where it is aiming and start a new tread with sig in the title instead of glock.

WinThePennant
August 25, 2012, 06:07 PM
My point of impact is almost always LOWER than my point of aim. Regardless of manufacturer.

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