[Fishbed77]

As far as I know, this is the first significant police department (405 officers) to adopt the FNS pistol. It's obviously not a coincidence, since FN Manufacturing happens to produce this pistol at their factory in Columbia. The 9mm FNS-9 will be replacing the department's .45ACP SIG-Sauer P220 pistols.

http://m.thestate.com/state/db_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=XkC1omDg&full=true#display

I recall about 10 years ago a few small departments around here adopting the now-defunct FN Forty-Nine pistols, but thier use was short-lived. This, however, sounds like a much more major commitment to an FN design.

[TarDevil]

Give up a Sig??

I would cry.

[surratt95]

Yeah, trading Sigs for an untried pistol......politics, the Mayor arranged it.

[bluethunder1962]

Prob. Our BMW plant gave the fire cheif for the area a BMW to drive. There for a while we had some bmw highway patrol cars.

[bluethunder1962]

Didn't we just go down this rd going from 9 to .40 because the 9 was not stopping people. At least they did get a good price.

[momano]

Did the FNS ever go through the NATO tests? Just curious. I think I read or heard that Caracal did.

[Fishbed77]

Prob. Our BMW plant gave the fire cheif for the area a BMW to drive. There for a while we had some bmw highway patrol cars.

I remember those days of the BMW 3-series Highway Patrol cars in the Greenville area. You had to really keep your eyes open on I-385. :)

[Sulaco]

I'm glad they're supporting FN. FN sure supports SC with jobs and revenue. No, I don't work for FN, but I am a native South Carolinian.

As for the jump from 45 to 9, 45 is awesome. We gun enthusiasts know and appreciate that fact. Cops however, are generally (as has been stated plenty of times before) not. Also, a lot of cops are women who have more trouble handling larger caliber handguns. The 9mm fits the general purpose sidearm for law enforcement role very well.

As for performance, I can think of several current shootings involving 9mm (by local law enforcement) and it worked just fine.

[2wheels]

Maaaan... I'd be one mad cop if they took away my 220 for an FNS-9...

Nothing against FN, but I've never been fond of their pistols. And I do love me some Sig 220...

[bluethunder1962]

Fishbed77 Yep now they have everything. I have seen a lot of ford f150's now. I think the still use BMW motorcycles.

[788Ham]

The State Patrol here in Colorado have about 5 of the F-150's on the highway, whew, those suckers can move!

[CornCod]

I always hoped that my corrections agency would forgo the Glock 22 and adopt a 9mm pistol. I can shoot .40 S&W pistols very well and I qualify with the piece very easily. But then again, I have been shooting handguns of many different calibers for over 30 years. Many of my colleagues, however, have very little experience with firearms of any kind and end up spending half the day at the range, making multiple attempts to qualify with the "snappy" .40. God forbid that I should ever get into a gun battle, but if I did I would hope that an inexperienced comrade at my side would have a 9mm rather then a .40.

[surratt95]

We have used Glock 40s for over a decade now, we have no real issue with qualification. We have a harder qual course than most departments I have seen. Any pistol round is under powered. I would have a hard time equipping my officers with a gun in any caliber that has not been proven on the street, period. I would not want to experiment with my officers lives, that why I would go with a proven pistol.
The article does not talk about the round they are shooting. They have choosen the Corbon +p, so I think this brings recoil way up from a standard 9mm and closer to the 40.

[surratt95]

FNs first striker fired pistol was a failure, the Forty Nine. It was a copy of the SW Sigma. Both those pistols had huge problems and did not stand up to large round counts. I just would not trust their track record with pistols for my officers. I think they really wanted to be different from Richland County that carries Glock. If they had switched to a Glock pistol there would not have been all these news stories.

[JohnBT]

"I just would not trust their track record with pistols for my officers."

Was there something wrong with FN's Browning High Power that I didn't hear about?

[owen]

Both those pistols had huge problems and did not stand up to large round counts.

Both of those guns had issues, but durability wasn't one of them. Have any evidence to back that statement up?

[PabloJ]

Polish Police forces got similar deal. They got Radom produced or assembled Walther P99s because several hundred local jobs were saved. This is not how things should be done.

[Fishbed77]

Polish Police forces got similar deal. They got Radom produced or assembled Walther P99s because several hundred local jobs were saved. This is not how things should be done.

They also got one of the finest polymer 9mm semi-autos ever made in the process (and well-proven by the time they adopted it).

So I think it worked out for the Poles. :)

[C0untZer0]

A good example of how corruption does not serve the public good.

I'm not saying the FN is not a good pistol, but the first question that should have been asked that I doubt was asked was "Does the department NEED to switch pistols?" I doubt there was a serious evaluation of the department's needs and whether the current service pistol was meeting those needs, and if some other pistol even should to be considered.

Then if it was determined that the current issue pistol was not meeting the needs of the department, was a set of requirements put together to express the needs of the department? I doubt it.

Were pistol trials held to evaluate a number of pistols and see which pistol of many, could best meet the needs of the department. I doubt it.

It's amazing to me that politicians give so little consideration to law enforcement officers. I don't know if they're just buying the sales pitch from FN, or if they even care enough to believe their assurances. I don't think very much thought went into this except thinking about jobs, tax revenue and campaign contributions.

[Skribs]

Honestly, if FN (or anyone, really) would make a BUG (subcompact slimline) with the same control scheme as the FN (ambi slide stop, mag release, and safety) then I'd go for it. As it is, there isn't anything that fits my requirements for a BUG that has ambi slide stop...

[danweasel]

I like it. Local goverment should support the local community and visa-versa. As long as it doesn't saddle anyone with an in-effective product of course, which the FN is not.

Is the Sig a "nicer" pistol than the FN? Maybe. More effective? Nope. As for the 9mm vs .45 thing, of course there will be people on both sides of that one. I really doubt that needs to be discussed.

[JohnBT]

"corruption"

Has someone been convicted of corruption?
Has anyone been indicted?

What are you talking about? Do you have inside information to base your claim on?

[WC145]

A good example of how corruption does not serve the public good.

I'm not saying the FN is not a good pistol, but the first question that should have been asked that I doubt was asked was "Does the department NEED to switch pistols?" I doubt there was a serious evaluation of the department's needs and whether the current service pistol was meeting those needs, and if some other pistol even should to be considered.

Then if it was determined that the current issue pistol was not meeting the needs of the department, was a set of requirements put together to express the needs of the department? I doubt it.

Were pistol trials held to evaluate a number of pistols and see which pistol of many, could best meet the needs of the department. I doubt it.

It's amazing to me that politicians give so little consideration to law enforcement officers. I don't know if they're just buying the sales pitch from FN, or if they even care enough to believe their assurances. I don't think very much thought went into this except thinking about jobs, tax revenue and campaign contributions.
You doubt it, you doubt it, you doubt it...... but you have no idea what the real deal is. Personally, I give the dept the benefit of the doubt. Depts change out guns every 10 years or so, it could have just been time. Not all depts do their own evals on guns and ammo, often they don't have the money, appropriate personnel, or time so they go by info they get from big depts that have already done the leg work. This happens with guns, ammo, cars, all kinds of things. Yes, FN probably made them a great deal because they're local and it gets them on the LE Agency map, so what? How do you think Glock, SIG, S&W, HK, and others got their guns in all the cop holsters they inhabit? The difference in quality, accuracy, and reliability between the majority of the guns that cops are issued today are infinitesimal so it's really six of one, half a dozen of another. At least in the case of the FNS-9 it comes with replaceable back straps and 1911esque frame geometry so it fits lots of people well.

And as far as the change from .45 to 9mm? Greater capacity, less recoil, easier to teach newbies how to shoot since they're less intimidating, much lower ammo costs - win win win from a management stand point. Would I prefer a .45 if I was on that dept? Sure I would, I carry a .45 on duty now but I have to provide my own weapon so it's my choice. Would I feel undergunned with an 18 shot 9mm loaded with quality ammo and two 17rd mags on my belt? Hell no, it'll do the job if I do mine.

I agree with danweasel, it's a good example of the community supporting local business and local business supporting the community. And, if this results in more depts looking to FN to equip their officers it will benefit both the community and the business that much more.

[surratt95]

BT, the browning hi power was a long time ago. Yes a good pistol, but name a FN pistol that that has been such a success since?
Owen, we carried the sigmas for several years because of a political decision, they were crap. They fell apart. Really fell apart, they had huge reliability problems. We had had to get rid of them after about 3 years of SW sending pistols back and forth.
The FN was a copy of the sigma. Even the employees at the plant admitted to that. It had the same issues and is no longer manufactured.

[JohnBT]

"name a FN pistol that that has been such a success since?"

That wasn't what you said. You said...

"I just would not trust their track record with pistols for my officers."

...without providing any evidence that the FNP, FNX, FNS series of guns were untrustworthy in any way. You can focus on sales numbers if you like, but I look at the guns themselves.

John

[Jaymo]

.45 ACP is not a difficult round to shoot well. Jeff Cooper's daughter shot it well.
I had a girlfriend who preferred my .45 to any other pistol.
.45 Tupperware guns aren't a lot of fun to shoot because they are too light for their caliber.
If qualification scores are a problem with the .45, then more training is needed. To be honest, most departments should give more training.

[surratt95]

When you can't get your own employees to carry your guns. That says all I need to know.

[balance 740]

I don't trust FN's polymer pistols. I don't think they do enough testing before releasing them, and every FN polymer pistol other than the Five-seveN has had design issues that could stop the pistol from functioning.

-FNS:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/my-take-on-the-fn-s-striker-fire-pistol

There are a couple of situations where the slide will lock up cannot be racked. When this happens, the slide can only be released by pulling the trigger. This can be disasterous in a defensive situation (especially during a malfunction if you can’t clear a bad round) and dangerous even for more casual shooting if an inexperienced person is unfamiliar with the problem.



According to the instructors with whom I spoke, the slide locking problem happens most often if the muzzle is struck (which could occur during a struggle over the gun or if the gun is dropped in a fight). It doesn’t seem to take much force to cause the slide to freeze.



Slide lockup also occurs when the butt of the gun is struck while the muzzle is pointed in any direction below horizontal (from parallel with the ground downward). This could happen when aggressively seating a magazine or when performing a malfunction clearance drill.

-The FNX had issues where the trigger would not release the hammer in the DA pull if the pistol got "hot", as in sitting in the sunlight for a matter of minutes.

-The FNP-45 had issues where the trigger pin would walk out seizing up the pistol, not allowing the trigger to be pulled, the hammer to be cocked, or the slide to be racked.

-The FNP had issues with the sear housing cracking.

I never looked into the Forty Nine, but a quick search on Google turns up some first hand reports of people having design related issues with them as well. Trust them if you want, but given the previous issues they have had with almost every model of polymer pistol they have made, I personally would give any new polymer pistol from FN at least a few years on the market before I would trust it.

[PabloJ]

Belgian choks are much better then their modern guns. The two Belgian standouts were FAL and FNMAG. The P-35 pistole does not count because it was American design.

[NG VI]

Had an FNP-9M that was outstanding.

Never an issue, accurate, comfortable in the hand, ideal size for a carry gun larger than the Glock 26/27 or the non-service subcompacts/pocket pistols, I loved that gun.

Can't imagine the FNS will be a poor choice for a police department.

[HorseSoldier]

I'm not saying the FN is not a good pistol, but the first question that should have been asked that I doubt was asked was "Does the department NEED to switch pistols?" I doubt there was a serious evaluation of the department's needs and whether the current service pistol was meeting those needs, and if some other pistol even should to be considered.

Don't know about Columbia PD's experience with Sig, but a friend of mine is in an agency that dropped Sigs five or six years ago in favor of Glocks because Sig's customer service for their agency was just atrocious. He didn't think there was much to complain about in switching from 220s to (if I remember right) 40 cal Glocks.

The P-35 pistole does not count because it was American design.

By the time it reached production the High Power was much more a product of Saive than Browning, who died well before the finished product was completed.

[NG VI]

And it doesn't count as an American product if it is designed and built by a Belgian manufacturer's employees, regardless of their country of origin.

[wristtwister]

I had a .40 cal FNP that shot great, but it was a little "clunky" as far as being a "carry gun"... of course, I didn't have an outside holster with all my old cop toys hanging off of it either. As a service weapon, I'm sure it would have been great, and the 9MM might function as well... but I'm not a fan of going to smaller bullets. If you're going to do police work, you have to be able to make the tools you use work for you.

I certainly wouldn't trade a Sig .45 for an FN 9MM if I was an operations officer. I'd want the biggest, ugliest bullet out there... and while 9's are fun to shoot, I wouldn't want to stake my life on one doing cop work "on the street" on a 9MM. A .45 has an excellent record of putting troublemakers down for the count... and in today's world... you want to keep them down.

WT

[sigarms228]

I ran across this info on Glock Talk about a potential problem with the FNS. Interesting read and videos in post #12.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1439164

[mgmorden]

I'm sure this will do fine. Departments buy new guns from time to time. Realistically a 9mm striker fired polymer gun is a good choice for a department to go to, and for their purposes just about any of them on the market from a major manufacturer would do just as good.

FNS, Ruger SR9, Springfield XDm, Glock 17, S&W M&P, Walther P99 - whatever. These are working guns. Concealment isn't an issue and they're not looking for enjoyable range time. They just need it to work, and pretty much all of them do these days.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I ran across this info on Glock Talk about a potential problem with the FNS. Interesting read and videos in post #12.

I can see how that could be a potential problem with a dud round. The tap part of clearing drills could knock the trigger forward causing it to lock up. That is something that shouldn't be in a pistol from a company with such a large reputation.

[legumeofterror]

The P-35 pistole does not count because it was American design.

Dieudonné Saive, who worked on the pistol for 8 years after Browning's death and designed the magazine, would beg to differ.

[NG VI]

Quote:
The P-35 pistole does not count because it was American design.
Dieudonné Saive, who worked on the pistol for 8 years after Browning's death and designed the magazine, would beg to differ.


So would the people paying their salaries, thus owning all of their workplace intellectual property.

Such as firearms and machinery to produce them.

[Sox]

Good for FN!!! They are innovative, responsive and coming out with new things all the time.

There was talk of a compact .45 G19 size a while back. FN website has specs for a the compacts listed, but no photos yet. Spoke to a rep and I frankly asked did it remind you of G19 or a G26. He said, think more G26 ish.

Best

[barnbwt]

don't trust FN's polymer pistols. I don't think they do enough testing before releasing them, and every FN polymer pistol other than the Five-seveN has had design issues that could stop the pistol from functioning.


I'll trust that the issues you described are real, though I never heard of them researching the FNX/FNP I ended up not buying (for a Five-seveN instead). FWIW, the vaunted Five-seveN had (s) a stupid design flaw that can tie it up extremely easily;

On my second range trip, I guess the top-most round in the mag wasn't fully back. Upon inserting the mag, the tip of the round snagged the mag-release spring, and popped it right out! The instant I removed the mag, the spring and release catch fell to the ground. No positive way to hold the mag in anymore (without your hand, I guess). No way to drop the hammer on a chambered round without a mag in the well (mag safety). If someone was doing tac-reloads where they might not be carefully tapping every mag against their boot before loading, this issue could easily come up.

To their credit, FNH realized the issue, and developed a quality fix, which they promptly sent me free of charge. Replaced with a machined leaf spring was the cheesy bent paperclip that was the mag release return spring.

My point is, nearly all gun designs (especially new ones) have issues. The FNP and FNX are today highly respected in the identically-performing-polymer-pistol category. Heck, the Beretta 92 series had it's share of teething issues, as I recall, and they have legions (literally) of fans today.

TCB

[balance 740]

I'll trust that the issues you described are real, though I never heard of them researching the FNX/FNP I ended up not buying (for a Five-seveN instead).

They are real (or they were at one point in time). I don't follow FN's pistols closely enough to know if the issues have been resolved, but there were multiple people reporting that they had the issues I mentioned in their own pistols.

FWIW, the vaunted Five-seveN had (s) a stupid design flaw that can tie it up extremely easily;

If this is true, then FN has yet to release a polymer pistol model that has been free from design related issues since its release.

Personally, I wouldn't trust a new model of polymer pistol from FN until it was on the market for a matter of years first, with no reported issues waiting to be resolved.

[HOOfan_1]

If this is true, then FN has yet to release a polymer pistol model that has been free from design related issues since its release.
.

Glock Gen 4s had problems when first released. Smith and Wesson Sigma had problems when first released.

New designs have problems. I have an FNP-40 and have 1800 rounds through it without a single hiccup. So do countless other people in the world.

[solvability]

Lot of crime there - will be interesting if they have them in a year.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Glock Gen 4s had problems when first released.

That was more related to the wrong spring weight. What is with FN is a design flaw from the blue prints with that trigger issue.

[One_Jackal]

Many people like the 5.56 because it's easy to carry a bunch of ammo. Personally, no one can convince me that the 5.56 is a decent defense weapon. Yet the same voices say a 9mm is not adequate. The 9mm has all the same qualities of the 5.56. You can carry a bunch of ammo. The weapons are all high capacity. The 9mm has very little recoil from a full size service weapon. Yet everyone says it's not adequate. Go figure...

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Many people like the 5.56 because it's easy to carry a bunch of ammo. Personally, no one can convince me that the 5.56 is a decent defense weapon. Yet the same voices say a 9mm is not adequate. The 9mm has all the same qualities of the 5.56. You can carry a bunch of ammo. The weapons are all high capacity. The 9mm has very little recoil from a full size service weapon. Yet everyone says it's not adequate. Go figure...

There is more to 5.56 than just being able to carry more ammo and less recoil.

[CornCod]

Well, the P-35 (BHP) was a partial John Moses Browning design. Dieudonné Saive had as much to do with it as Browning.

[Fishbed77]

Just a little update... Was out at the Greek Festival today in downtown Columbia and noticed that every cop I saw was wearing a new FNS pistol, so it looks like the gun has been widely issued at this point.

None of them had a terrifed look on his or her face from being "under-gunned" due to the transition from a .45ACP SIG to a 9mm FN. ;)

[khadga]

I noticed the same, Fishbed77. While I was waiting in a LONG gyro line, I tried to ask the chunky moustache and sunglasses CPD stationed by the entrance where the lines get food from inside led if he liked the safety-decocker setup on the FNS, but he acted like he couldn't hear me three feet to his right. Same friendly CPD demeanor I'm used to. Guess he was too busy scouting for insurgents to speak to a citizen.

Most cops put far more wear on their holsters than their pistols, never firing them on the job except to barely qualify, so I'm sure the FNS will holdup like the reliable Sig 220 even if it isn't.

I like the FNP-9 quite a bit, and while not a fan of the operating controls on the FNS or FNX, I'm not surprised that a department that didn't like the Glock favored a manual safety. The safety thumbs down for live, 1911 proper, but even if you (or some bureaucrat) want a thumb safety, I think integrating the decock function into the same lever is a poor idea for a combat pistol. Under pressure, the poorly trained will decock their weapon unintentionally. Even the well trained will have to re-learn their grip if they have 1911 experience, because as you ride the safety with your thumb after the draw & sweep, you'll naturally push the lever into decock.