[hookem3119]

I am doing a 7 day hike in back country elk hunt in Colorado's second season. It would be nice to be able to take small game to add a little variety to the diet of GORP and dehydrated foods, but carrying a second gun is not an option. Even a single shot .22 cricket or air pistol is more weight than I want to add.

I would like to work up some cast or jacketed .270 loads over the lightest charge I can get away with.

My goals are as little noise as possible (already hunting spooked elk on public land), and something that will shoot MOR (Moment of Rabbit) at 50 yds to the same point of aim as my current set up.

I have not done anything even close to this in the past, so would love suggestions. I am looking at 150 gr Montana cast bullets over about 15 gr of Trail Boss powder as a starting point. But no experience with cast.

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/270_Rifle.html
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[Bio-Chem]

That's a tall order there. i've never heard of being able to get two loads at two bullet weights getting the same point of aim. if you do be very good in documenting that. i'd be interested in seeing it.

[hang fire]

If for small game, I would go for whisper loads. (Google whisper or mouse fart loads)

With rifle sighted for big game, it is relatively easy to obtain good accuracy at close range without disturbing original settings.

[hookem3119]

I have seen the sub sonic whisper ammo. I just haven't seen anything in 270. Agreed, there are plenty of loads out there for plinking that will group to the same relative point of aim out to 100 yards. The projectile will still have to cross the line of sight twice on its way to the target, no matter how slow it is traveling. 50 yds should be doable.

I think this used to be a common practice with some of the old timer types out there. Backwoods hunters, trappers, cowboy era shooters. But cast bullets are kind of a lost art, and I'm sure that a lot of shooters from that generation are not the type to be reading internet forums.

I have also found a lot of loads for light recoil deer, or various varmit loads. But I am trying to slavage meat from small targets. Fully jacketed rounds will keep the meat damage to a minimum, but require more powder to push them down the barrel. The soft cast bullets can be pushed by much less power without fear of plussing the barrel.

Another consideration is case size vs volume of powder. Modern propellents would require some sort of filler to keep the small powder load close to the primer. Trail Boss and Bullseye style powders eliminate some of this (from what I can tell). But that is just based on some internet research. That is the kind of thing I am looking for answers to.

[hookem3119]

Also, if anyone already is loading something similar in the Houston or Beaumont area, I will be happy to purchase a box of something like this at a premium price. It sounds like a fun challenge, but no sense reinventing the wheel. Just send me a PM.

[Striker Fired]

Sign up and ask this question at http://castboolits.gunloads.com/. They are the group of people that will have your answers most likely.

[rcmodel]

something that will shoot MOR (Moment of Rabbit) at 50 yds to the same point of aim as my current set up.Thats not gonna happen.

rc

[hookem3119]

I posted Q on the "Boolits" site. I will share what I find out. I keep finding lots of references to a book by Ken Waters (Pet Loads) for just this type of thing. Maybe I'll just have to order the book. Also most of the loads I can find references to are for reduced recoil deer hunting. These rounds are still making 1600 -1700 fps with as little as 10 -12 grains of Trail Boss. Maybe I should just work backwards from conventional loading wisdom. Pick a well established load, and work down instead of up. Just back off until accuracy starts to deteriorate (assuming I can coax some out of it to begin with), then go test the terminal ballistics on the local rabit population.

[kelbro]

Maybe I should just work backwards from conventional loading wisdom. Pick a well established load, and work down instead of up.

As long as you don't go below book minimum or starting loads. Bad things can happen in a hurry. Google Secondary Explosion Effect.

[Striker Fired]

I know a person used to be able to get 30-06"accelerator" rounds the had a smaller dia bullet in a sabot.They were made for higher velocity,but I'd bet something on that order could be done(if components are found)with a lower charge. A nice .22 or.25 cal bullet in a sabot over Trail boss or maybe Red Dot??

[ChefJeff1]

I would stick to elk hunting. Don't risk spooking your dream bull for a squirrel. Keep your eye out for some grouse. You could get them with a rock!

[Haxby]

You already have the Trailboss data for a jacketed bullet, so you can go with that.
Speer #13 shows loads with SR4759 and 100 to 150 grain jacketed bullets and velocities around 1600 fps.
As far as point of impact, there is likely a spot on a bdc reticle, or a post on a duplex, that lines up.

[hookem3119]

Thanks guys, here is a link to this question on a cast bullet site.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1824671#post1824671

I am going to order an adapter that allows you to fire sized buckshot using .22 powder driven tool blanks. The kit comes with a tool that allows standard buck shot to be resized to caliber. Then I will use thsoe to load my own.

The advantages I see are:
1. I can fire lead to reduce the chance of the bullet sticking in the chamber.
2. And these nearly round projectiles will elimnate aerodynamic concerns. Bullets wobble when exiting the barrel, then stablize by spinning. Like a football or arrow. Boat tails take longer, flat based are quicker. But at these extreme low velocities, I'm not sure the bullet would ever stabilize. I may try sabots. But that is a crap shoot. I heve never heard of anyone trying those at low velocities. I don't know what would happen when they left the barrel.

It will probably be a couple of weeks, but I will post some results. Thanks for the help.

[hookem3119]

ChefJeff,

A grouse would be oustanding. Sear the breast rare, then simmer the carcass for a little back woods broth. If I could eat like that every day of my trip, I would probably stop looking for elk altogether! At least until I started dreaming about those elk roasts...

[hookem3119]

Damn you, now you've got me thinking. I will have my grouse breast with some instant grits prepared with the broth and a little coffee for a red eyed gravy. I can't wait!

[FROGO207]

I Had some of those "Acelerator" rounds in 30-06 and the accuracy was REALLY poor. Like minute of Volkswagen poor at 50 feet. Then I got some sabots in a trade and attempted to make some accurate loads. So the best I got was the ability to keep it on a 4X8 sheet of plywood at 75 or so feet with lots of keyholes.:banghead: You can just drill out your primer pocket in 2 steps to accept a shotgun primer and put a couple dimples in the lower end of the neck of that brass with a center punch. Then use the sized buckshot or a 25 cal lead bullet and push it into the neck to shoot what you are aiming for.

[helotaxi]

Just buy a slingshot.

[Bush Pilot]

I've seen people post this type of question off and on for years and I have yet to see anyone ever use their rifle for a grouse or rabbit that wasn't blown all to hell. Imagine a grouse hit with a .270, it's not pretty. The best thing you can do is to shoot a huge bull the first morning out so you have heart, liver and backstrap to eat for a week. The upside is that you'll have less meat to pack out.

[kingmt]

I made some rounds for my 30-06 with 19gn projectiles shoots great to 50 yards. it isn't quite tho even with Bullseye. You can get by without ear plugs but it isn't quite.

[ChefJeff1]

Please, don't forget the mushrooms to go with that grouse. You can get dried ones too.

I often find grouse st the same elevation I find elk. They help to increase my alertness.

good luck out there.

[Grumulkin]

http://www.orchardphoto.com/l11zse39.jpg

Notice the rabbit. Unless you're in to eating rabbit brains and eyeballs, there is NO ruined meat and it was shot with a 458 Lott.

I find it amazing how many hunters think there has to be a special load for every type of hunting when it just ain't so. I've shot crows, groundhogs, racoons, deer, etc. with my 270 Winchester and, unlike the cautions from the pundits, in the event I had wanted to eat all said animals with the exception of the crow, meat loss was minimal. You DON'T need a special load to hunt rabbits with a 270 Winchester and thinking that downloading is going to make significantly less noise is unrealistic and it's even less realistic to think they'll hit the same place as your full power loads.

It's also a big misconception that gunfire spooks game. I've found it doesn't unless the gunfire has been directed at a particular animal and even then, after a near miss, many times they'll stick around long enough for a second or third shot. In fact, one time I had a whitetail deer doe walk calmly out from behind a 100 yard target I had been shooting at with a 7mm/08 braked handgun. Elk and other animals are used to hearing thunder and gunshots and I'm very doubtful that taking a shot at a rabbit is going to drive away the elk from miles around.

If you want a load with minimal meat damage, and provided it's legal, to hit the same place as your elk loads, I would recommended an FMJ or solid bullet of the same weight. Sometimes, but not always, the FMJ or solid will hit about the same place as your expanding bullet loads. I've been lucky with a number of loads like though though I've never done it or tried it with a 270 Winchester.

[Grumulkin]

http://www.orchardphoto.com/l11zse39.jpg

Notice the rabbit. Unless you're in to eating rabbit brains and eyeballs, there is NO ruined meat and it was shot with a 458 Lott.

I find it amazing how many hunters think there has to be a special load for every type of hunting when it just ain't so. I've shot crows, groundhogs, racoons, deer, etc. with my 270 Winchester and, unlike the cautions from the pundits, in the event I had wanted to eat all said animals with the exception of the crow, meat loss was minimal. You DON'T need a special load to hunt rabbits with a 270 Winchester and thinking that downloading is going to make significantly less noise is unrealistic and it's even less realistic to think they'll hit the same place as your full power loads.

It's also a big misconception that gunfire spooks game. I've found it doesn't unless the gunfire has been directed at a particular animal and even then, after a near miss, many times they'll stick around long enough for a second or third shot. In fact, one time I had a whitetail deer doe walk calmly out from behind a 100 yard target I had been shooting at with a 7mm/08 braked handgun. Elk and other animals are used to hearing thunder and gunshots and I'm very doubtful that taking a shot at a rabbit is going to drive away the elk from miles around.

If you want a load with minimal meat damage, and provided it's legal, to hit the same place as your elk loads, I would recommended an FMJ or solid bullet of the same weight. Sometimes, but not always, the FMJ or solid will hit about the same place as your expanding bullet loads. I've been lucky with a number of loads like though though I've never done it or tried it with a 270 Winchester.

[Certaindeaf]

Thanks guys, here is a link to this question on a cast bullet site.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1824671#post1824671

I am going to order an adapter that allows you to fire sized buckshot using .22 powder driven tool blanks. The kit comes with a tool that allows standard buck shot to be resized to caliber. Then I will use thsoe to load my own.

The advantages I see are:
1. I can fire lead to reduce the chance of the bullet sticking in the chamber.
2. And these nearly round projectiles will elimnate aerodynamic concerns. Bullets wobble when exiting the barrel, then stablize by spinning. Like a football or arrow. Boat tails take longer, flat based are quicker. But at these extreme low velocities, I'm not sure the bullet would ever stabilize. I may try sabots. But that is a crap shoot. I heve never heard of anyone trying those at low velocities. I don't know what would happen when they left the barrel.

It will probably be a couple of weeks, but I will post some results. Thanks for the help.
I'd just use #2 buck with a bit of Lee liqid alox and a couple three grains of Red Dot. Of course you'll have to verify your POI etc..

[splattergun]

I've hit a few rabbits in the head with a .30-06 while muley hunting. Fresh roast bunny beats canned chili every time. One time my shot scared a doe out of a nearby willow thicket. She jumped out then stood there looking at me for a half minute before jogging off. No doe tag.

[Promod1385]

Why not a sidearm? I would carry my Sig Mosquito in your situation.

[hookem3119]

I don't want this thread to take off on a tangent about the wisdom of backcountry pack in hunting (no pack animals), but A sidearm would add additionalal weight that I am trying to avoid. For the purposes of this thread, lets continue with the assumptions that my party will be truly prepared and know what we are doing. Now, having said that, the idea of carrying in a handful of extra cartridges to supplement our diet, allows us to pack in say 3500 calories/day as opposed to 4500 cal/day. If your average food for the trip is in the range of 130 cal/oz then you can save 3 or 4 pounds out of your initial pack. It is all about weight reduction. The hot meal is also a nice bonus.

I ordered one of the Game Getters mentioned above. For $40 I got a ready to go kit, but what I really wanted was the little "sizing die" that he incudes that lets you swage buckshot to the exact caliber you shoot very easily. Attached is an article that the man who makes these sent me.

[Certaindeaf]

I used to get a free goat out of the newspaper. You can saddle them up pretty easy to carry their own bbq sauce with some burlap sacks and twine.

[Striker Fired]

Its interesting, you can also put, say a 85gr or so bullet in it, if the shot ball doesn't meet accuracy.It would be fun to play around with.

[GJgo]

I've been hunting elk on public land for years. Brother, every year I think it'd be a good idea to hunt small game or even take my fly rod out there with me & let me tell you when the boots hit the ground I've never once thought it was a good idea to stop elk hunting to do anything else that week. Elk hunting requires more than 100% of your focus & energy, and you only get around one week a year to do it. You can hunt small game & fish far, far more often. Just one man's experience.

That said, don't take two loads. You'll have the wrong one in the pipe when seconds count & they won't sight the same anyway. If you're going to shoot a rabbit with a 270 any elk bullet will just pencil through it. If it doesn't, then it's not an elk bullet.

[ArchAngelCD]

The .270 is more versatile that most people give it credit for. If you look at the load data they use a bullet as light as 90gr. A 90gr bullet loaded to just over 3,000 fps will take any small game for dinner you see. Keep the 150gr loads for the larger game.

Here's a hint, give 50.0gr IMR 4064 under a 90gr Sierra bullet a try and see how you like them. You can go much higher but I see no reason to unless you are on a dogtown hunt.

[Grumulkin]

Yea? Actually a 150 gr. bullet will also take any small game for dinner.

[kingmt]

How much weight is a little PT22 going to add to your gear if it is on your side?

Not that I see anything wrong with building squid loads but make sure that they look different enough that you don't get them confused. I also wouldn't use lead & jacketed at the same time. Lead in the barrel will change your POI.

[hookem3119]

Winner, winner, goat dinner! That might be the best idea I have heard this year. We were considering renting lamas, but I might lose my deposit if I returned it in a doggy bag...

[Bush Pilot]

Yea? Actually a 150 gr. bullet will also take any small game for dinner.
Do you think the 150 gr is enough for one shot kills on small game or would you need a follow up shot?

[thomis]

Might be a good time to learn how to set a snare (if you don't already). :)

[Grumulkin]

Not that I see anything wrong with building squid loads but make sure that they look different enough that you don't get them confused. I also wouldn't use lead & jacketed at the same time. Lead in the barrel will change your POI.

Actually, if your goal is to have calamari, I'd pack some hooks and a little fishing line and give it a try. That wouldn't add much weight.

Let us know how you do.

[hookem3119]

Snares have one major drawback. They don't tend to be very selective. I would just assume eat more PB to rats, and I don't want to have to deal with an angry skunk, porcupine, bobcat, etc.

[hookem3119]

There are some beaver ponds. We plan to set some lines out.

[ArchAngelCD]

Just a side note, it sounds like you will be in some beautiful country. If you take any photos please post them when you get back, good luck...

[JEB]

i have no experience with the .270, but i have done exactly what you are asking with the 30-30. i used very light charges of red dot (3.5gr if memory serves) and a 135gr lead bullet from missouri bullet. accuracy was actually pretty good. i would feel pretty confident with a 25 yard shot at a squirrel. the only problem was that the POI was way low as compared to my full power loads so i had to use kentucky windage for each shot. velocity was just a bit over 820fps and it was no louder than a .22lr. i have wanted to repeat this experiment with a heavier bullet (165gr or 173gr) to see if i can raise the POI but have yet to get around to it.

[Swampman]

hookem3119,
I don't have any experience with reduced loads in the .270, but I have had reasonably good luck shooting .300" #1 Buckshot out of a variety of .308 to .312 barreled rifles.

Even though the .300" ball is too small to properly engage the rifling, they seem to pick up enough spin to stabilize just by "skidding" over the lands. Since #2 Buckshot is nominally .270" you might be able to use it unsized in your .270.

I load the #1 Buckshot by lubing heavily with liquid Alox and then seating into a fired, unsized case charged with a magnum primer and no powder. Depending on how tight the neck in your chamber is, you might need to pinch the case neck in a bit to hold the shot firmly in place.

Even without powder these loads will group well enough in most of my 30 caliber rifles to reliably take rabbits out to about 75 feet or so. These loads are very quiet and can hardly be heard from 75 yards away. If I want more power, I add up to 3 grains of Red Dot in a .308 Winchester case, any more powder and they start to lead the bore badly after just a few shots.

I used to put a 3/8ths inch square piece of Dacron above the powder to hold it in place, but I stopped doing it because it didn't give any better accuracy than simply pointing the rifle straight up in the air to settle the powder in the rear of the case before taking a shot.

I wish you luck in getting any of these reduced loads to shoot to the same point of aim as your full power loads, but stranger things have happened! The only way you'll know is by shooting them in your rifle.

kingmt made a good point about POI shift. Although these loads are unlikely to lead your barrel, the Alox left in the bore might shift your POI, Again testing in your rifle will be the only way to find out.
Take care,
Swampman

[98Redline]

Take the advice of sticking to a single gun and a single load. Any big game bullet designed for elk is going to poke a nice round hole through a smaller critter without even thinking about expanding. Coupled with the fact that you could screw up and pop a Boone and Crocket elk with a mouse fart load...

I can't see how multiple ammunition types in the same caliber are a good idea.

[hookem3119]

Finally got to try out the Game Getter adapter. The results were pretty impressive.

At 25 yards, using the "brown" blanks, I got a 3" 5 shot group. 3 of the shots were within 1.3". And they were hitting at exactly the same POI as my full 140 gr elk loads.

The "green" blanks were 2.8" 5 shot @ 25 yards, with 4 of the 5 inside 1.7". Also same POI as hunting loads.

Best part: It wasn't as load as the kid's .22 LR that was sitting next to me. Hard to say how "quiet" exactly with earmuffs on. About as much noise as a high power air rifle.

According to the data supplied wiith the kit. The brown fired the 40gr buckshot at 875 fps, the green at 1015fps.