Shoud NYC cops use revolers not autos?


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rajb123
August 25, 2012, 08:41 PM
In a number of recent situatinns, the NYC police have used thier high capacity auto guns to end violent situations. In the most recent example outside of the Empire State building, 8 inocent people were injured by police .

Should police be better trained and should they use only revolvers not high capacity auiro guns?

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PabloJ
August 25, 2012, 08:47 PM
In a number of recent situatinns, the NYC police have used thier high capacity auto guns to end violent situations. In the most recent example outside of the Empire State building, 8 inocent people were injured by police .

Should police be better trained and should they use only revolvers not high capacity auiro guns?
We live in very violent dangerous society so police must carry high cap autos. NYC police handled that situation correctly.

Big D
August 25, 2012, 08:54 PM
Until you yourself are in such a situation, you have no idea how stressful and how volatile and evolving they are. I do not know the details, but from what I was told about the incident, the officers fired at close range; some of the bullets could have very well exited the perp and continued on to injure someone else, as well as complete misses. When in that sort of situation, tunnel vision sets in, fine motor skills deteriorate, and everything goes to hell in a handbasket pretty quick. Even the best marksman in a police department can and will miss in a gunfight. It makes it even worse if innocent bystanders are in the line of fire of the perp or you.

W.E.G.
August 25, 2012, 09:47 PM
Is this the same topic that got locked at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=674313 ?

bigfatdave
August 25, 2012, 09:53 PM
http://northamericanarms.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/2/22s---test_1.jpgyes, these and nothing else but these

Bubba613
August 25, 2012, 10:58 PM
Cops would be much better off with revolvers and good training than with large cap semi's and lousy training. But training is more expensive than guns.

tomrkba
August 25, 2012, 11:08 PM
Remember that NYPD has 40,000+ officers. Many of those officers do administrative work only. I think they are the vast majority. Also consider that most officers think the firearm is just something on their belt. They are not trained properly for gunfighting. They do not know how to shoot well but "qualify" according to department regulations. Most refuse extra training (so say my officer acquaintances in various large cities) and have absolutely no interest in the sort of training they need to improve their chances of success.

Yes, the NYPD needs to go back to revolvers. They need to THINK before doing. If they're not going to think, then the amount of damage they can inflict on uninvolved people needs to be minimized.



We live in very violent dangerous society so police must carry high cap autos. NYC police handled that situation correctly.

Not if they hit uninvolved people. You or I would go to jail for shooting anyone who didn't deserve it.

As for "a very dangerous society", I guess you have never been to, or read about crime, in South Africa or Sao Paulo. What we have here is paradise compared to most of the world.

HKGuns
August 25, 2012, 11:09 PM
Sounds like a training issue and not a firearm issue to me. Know your target and what is behind your target. Understanding penetration is also important.

However, it sounds like the cops shot more folks than the actual perp, kind of ironic and hard to pin on shoot throughs if 8 people were actually hit.

Alec
August 25, 2012, 11:16 PM
Nah. But they shouldn't have artificially heavy 12 lb triggers, for one thing.

Sheepdog1968
August 26, 2012, 12:10 AM
I think departments should offer more training. I think LEOs should be able to carry whatever firearm they like if they don't care for the standard issue.

barnbwt
August 26, 2012, 01:34 AM
Cops would be much better off with revolvers and good training than with large cap semi's and lousy training. But training is more expensive than guns.

It would be even cheaper to just give them good training with their current large cap semi's instead of changing platforms again ;)

You or I would go to jail for shooting anyone who didn't deserve it.


Damn right. I don't know where to start with the folks apologizing for the officers' (apparent) actions wounding so many nearby. What's worse was how slow that "little detail" leaked out into the press; how do you not know where the wounded were in relation to the police and murderer? They had us thinking this mass shooting was a citizan's mass shooting for a good half-day before the truth got out.

Understanding penetration is also important.


Not to start Caliber Wars or nothin', but it'll be interesting to see if those wounded were shot through the perp, and if the police were using heavier-caliber bullets because of underpenetration worries.

TCB

BCRider
August 26, 2012, 01:56 AM
Yes it IS a more dangerous world out there these days. It seems that a year can't go by without some looney deciding to make it onto the news by going on a murder spree as part of their suicide attempt.

So where's that leave the police? I'm sorry but since there is a very real chance that they will have to deal with one or more of this sort of situation during their career the training they get should reflect handling themselves decently under stress of this sort. Such things as realistic training scenarios using simunition and 360 degree firing lines would be a good start vs standing and shooting at static targets once or twice a year.

There are a whole lot of options that would train our officers to handle such stressful situations with more thought and if not calm at least not barely checked panic.

A while back while clearing some gun related items through our Customs I was chatting with the nice lady handling my Ebay slips. She asked me a few questions including how often I shot handguns. I replied "at least once a week at practices or matches" The "matches" got her asking about what sort they were. I suggested that she and a few buddys would be welcome to come out to our monthly Speed Steel events and how the other officers that attend them find they really help their shooting skills. Her reply was a quiet "I don't really like to shoot. I only shoot it when I have to practice to qualify".

Sadly this isn't an uncommon feeling among those that carry a gun as part of their job. In fact it's far more common than the officers or guards that enjoy shooting and see such practice as possibly saving their lives or the lives of their co-workers at some point.

Anyhow, sorry for the side track voyage.

As for any LEO's or other job related gun toting folks that answer this poll I'd suggest that they are going to be avid shooters anyway if they are reading this forum. So any results you get are certainly highly suspect as to validity within the LEO or other groups as a whole. In fact I'd say the deck is stacked to a crazy degree.... :D

Big D
August 26, 2012, 08:23 AM
I'm suprised at all the LEO bashing thats goin on. I can't speak for everyone, but I do know that for the most part my department is squared away. I work for a PD in south Georgia, not some big city. Another thing people frequently forget is that all officers, no matter what kind of agency they work for, have to make split second decisions that everyone Monday morning quarterbacks them on....but hey we can handle it.

One_Jackal
August 26, 2012, 08:42 AM
NYPD did what they are trained to do in that situation. All they could do was stop the shooter and pray for the best.

Lawdawg45
August 26, 2012, 08:42 AM
In a number of recent situatinns, the NYC police have used thier high capacity auto guns to end violent situations. In the most recent example outside of the Empire State building, 8 inocent people were injured by police .

Should police be better trained and should they use only revolvers not high capacity auiro guns?

Here's the issue that the Monday morning quarterbacks fail to see. It was 9am in front of the Empire State Building and there were literally thousands of people on both sides of the street, the suspect was running and firing among the masses, were the Police to hide behind cover while civilians were being shot, or did they chance injuring innocents to stop the killing? Do we know for sure if the injured were hit by missed shots or did they run into the line of fire? Lot's of unanswered questions before we come down on the Officers............their 8 lb triggers do suck though!;)

LD

tlmkr38
August 26, 2012, 08:55 AM
While I won't argue that they police had to sto the guy from possibly shooting other people I do have to agree that had this happened and a citizen legally carrying a firearm had shot him instead of police and wounded 8 innocent bystanders that person would be in jail for. However, since these were police officers it looks like they are saying it's ok for up to shoot bystanders but you can't. No thats wrong...

And as for the one who said police officers have to make split second decisions on shoot or not shoot that are life threatening, guess what? In those situations we do too... Now that being said, if you know you have a good chance of having to do that would it not make sense to get as much training as possible?

Those officers have to live with the fact that they shot innocent people, I'm sure they didn't mean to just as a citizen in that same situation wouldn't mean to however, they are supposed to be better trained for it.

I'm glad they got the guy where he couldn't hurt anyone else, but if I am to be held accountable for every bullet I fire then so should they.

bdjansen
August 26, 2012, 09:00 AM
NYPD documents every time one of their officer's firearms are used. And that info is available for the public. I read a report of a year once somewhere. Some of the things that struck me about the report were how many accidental discharges there were, how many suicides occurred with officer's weapons, the low amount of times they hit the guy they were aiming at when using their firearm vs the misses, and how only once in the entire year did an officer use the sights on his gun when discharging his weapon. It was an interesting read.

bdjansen
August 26, 2012, 09:07 AM
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/afdr_20111116.pdf

It's not my intention to make judgements of the NYPD for good or bad btw. I simply find it interesting.

bikerdoc
August 26, 2012, 09:29 AM
according to this they didnt do too bad.

http://ww2.cox.com/myconnection/hamptonroads/today/news/national/article.cox?articleId=DA0ST0KG2&moduleType=apNews

Creature
August 26, 2012, 09:35 AM
PabloJ wrote: NYC police handled that situation correctly.

No, they did not. As can be seen in the video of the shooting itself, the shooter was not even holding his weapon, which was stowed in his handbag. So he was not an immediate threat to anyone.

Had I been the on-scene commander, I would have ordered all police to trail/follow the shooter at a sufficient distance until the shooter was in a less crowded area before taking him down.

That whole situation is a text book example of what LE should NOT do. The NYPD around landmarks is far too "terrorist" focused and as a result I believe them to be trigger happy. They plainly over-reacted and they hurt a lot of people. That department is going to be sued like they wont believe.

jad0110
August 26, 2012, 09:43 AM
I'm suprised at all the LEO bashing thats goin on.

We aren't necessarily bashing the LEOs, more than that we are bashing the blatantly obvious double standard. If an armed citizen had sprayed lead at a perp in a crowd of people, killed the perp and wounding 8 to 10 bystanders, people would be screaming for the citizen to be hung. Can you imagine Mayor Bloomberg saying the situation was handled correctly in the above scenario? Not a chance.

As for arming LEOs with revolvers, better training makes more sense to me. It is the Indian, not the arrow as they say. Granted, if I were a cop I'd want to carry my S&W Model 19 or 28, based on my own personal preference.

Double_J
August 26, 2012, 09:56 AM
Lets limit them to 10 round magazines like us "commoners" and see if they like it. They seem to like to spray and pray. I have multiple friends who are LEO and Military who have been in gunfights, training makes all the difference. Live fire training is only a part of the package, we also need to require them to practice shoot/no shoot drills, dry fire drills, etc.

I also believe more training would help overcome the issue with the "12 pound trigger pull that no one can hit with." I recorded the trigger pull on my brothers sig p229 dao. It was around 12-13 pounds, yet both he and I can maintain good groups under rapid fire. I also remember shooting an old smith and wesson model 10 in double action to qualify for my security guard position. I believe the trigger was around 12 pounds there too, and I had no problem with aimed rapid fire. This comes back to training and mindset, both of which are missing in most leo agencies in my opinion. The pistol is a tool you may never use, but if you do your life may well depend on it.

TonyT
August 26, 2012, 09:58 AM
I beleieve the NYC police department has to examine their qualifications for firearm proficiency. More than a half dozen innocent bystanders injured by shots from the police is inexcusable!
Can you image the media fanned public uproar that would have occured if a person in a defensive situation had injured innocent bystanders during the process? LEO's as well as individuals have a responsibility to insure that their bullet does not do collateral damage.

HKGuns
August 26, 2012, 10:41 AM
I didn't realize the perp had stowed his weapon. This is a police tragedy if that is factual information. Not LEO bashing either, I have a tremendous amount of respect for our police and they have a horrifically difficult job to perform at times.

Lawdawg45
August 26, 2012, 10:48 AM
While I won't argue that they police had to sto the guy from possibly shooting other people I do have to agree that had this happened and a citizen legally carrying a firearm had shot him instead of police and wounded 8 innocent bystanders that person would be in jail for. However, since these were police officers it looks like they are saying it's ok for up to shoot bystanders but you can't. No thats wrong...

And as for the one who said police officers have to make split second decisions on shoot or not shoot that are life threatening, guess what? In those situations we do too... Now that being said, if you know you have a good chance of having to do that would it not make sense to get as much training as possible?

Those officers have to live with the fact that they shot innocent people, I'm sure they didn't mean to just as a citizen in that same situation wouldn't mean to however, they are supposed to be better trained for it.

I'm glad they got the guy where he couldn't hurt anyone else, but if I am to be held accountable for every bullet I fire then so should they.

Yet another mis-perception. While they're not "in cuffs", they will all go before a Grand Jury to determine if charges are necessary, a decision which will be decided by a random group from the public, not NYPD. Then they will all face an internal affairs investigation to determine if any departmental policies were violated, and even if they clear both of these hurdles, they still may face wrongful death litigation by the suspects family.

LD

Guillermo
August 26, 2012, 10:48 AM
while obviously a revolver teaches a certain amount of discipline, there is no substitute for keeping a cool head.

these guys went nuts, handled it horribly and should obviously not be police (or perhaps free men).

The weapon in their hand is the least important factor in the incident.

All this said, certainly revolver training might assist officers from getting away from "spray and pray"

tomrkba
August 26, 2012, 10:54 AM
I think departments should offer more training. I think LEOs should be able to carry whatever firearm they like if they don't care for the standard issue.


The problem, according to my friend who is a cop, is that the vast majority of officers refuse additional training beyond what the department requires. He is the only one at his station who goes to classes and competes in IDPA.

Departments tend to train for liability. They are not interested in skilled officers who will perform well in fights. Jim Cirillo talked about this in his books.

All this said, certainly revolver training might assist officers from getting away from "spray and pray"

No, it will not stop this behavior. There is much more to it and is too involved to cover in a forum post. Cirillo goes over it in Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights. This is an old argument and McGivern covers it in Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting.

bigfatdave
August 26, 2012, 10:59 AM
I didn't realize the perp had stowed his weapon.
the suspect was running and firing among the masses,

obviously, the video wasn't watched by some members
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYWgrHwrlf8
here, now you can fix that
Lawdawg45, you may want to revise some remarks, the only people running and firing were the police firing into a crowd
If there wasn't video, I'm sure the NYPD would be blaming all ventilated citizens on the perp.

barnbwt
August 26, 2012, 12:30 PM
I'm not one for snuff flicks, but thanks for the link, bigfatdave. Since all the regular channels seem so intent on spreading misinformation, you gotta get it from the horse's eye sometimes.

The video is horribly grainy (this'd better not be a city-owned camera, their budget for surveillance is too big for equipment this lousy), but the shooter (in grey suit) appears to pull something from his bag and point it at the officers (2) who appear on screen. The video is then too grainy to see either recoil movement or muzzle flash; the nearest cop and shooter kinda sidle around eachother, while the second cop moves the other direction while apparently squatting and shooting one-handed. It is too difficult to see what the first officer's arms are doing, but he appears to be using a two-hand hold on his weapon, with his right arm across his chest (lefty Weaver?).

I wonder which guy scored more of the 10 fatal hits. This video (since it is not "overtly" gory), is something proponents of "knockdown theory" should see. The perp was hit 10 times all over his body, but appears to simply fall over in the video. He does not look like Willem Dafoe in Platoon. Given that number of hits, it seems very likely at least some of the injured were shot through the perp; something that places (slightly) less blame on the officers.

The shooter was obviously attempting to exuent without harming additional people. The confrontation was the equivalent of a high speed chase where the pursuing officers pursued the suspect too closely, forcing him to do something reckless. Unlike the surrounding civilians (who actually shrink away from the shooter as he nears) the shooter seemed oblivious of the officers' pursuit until they ran up behind him (and probably started shouting). Why their weapons were not free as they approached him I do not know.

TCB

Friendly, Don't Fire!
August 26, 2012, 12:34 PM
It doesn't really matter what they use against the bad guys, however, with that being said, since most of their confrontations may be with innocent bystanders nearby, I think more importantly is that they be more proficient with their duty weapon than what they seem to be.

As mentioned, maybe the shots were T&T the bad guy and into bystanders, maybe not. If so, then they should weigh out what ammo they are currently using against some other ammo, especially when crowded with bystanders (like at the ESB).

floorit76
August 26, 2012, 12:41 PM
Just curious..... Do you suppose any of those shot feel better, or maybe hurt less because they were hit by PD bullets? Of course not. Ends do not justify means when innocent people are involved in deadly but possibly avoidable fire.

bikerdoc
August 26, 2012, 12:53 PM
Maybe their anger sholt be directed at the nut job that caused this mess. Root cause is his behavior started this. They are victims of his anti social behavior.

floorit76
August 26, 2012, 01:05 PM
My point was that one side is a crazed nut job, he doesn't know any better. The other side is trained officers that are supposed to be trained for this sort of thing, who should know better. If I'm shot by a crazed nut job, that one thing. If I'm shot by an officer that hasn't bothered to become proficient with his sidearm it's another thing all together. I'm NOT cop bashing. I'm only asking at what point has the protector failed, when his bullets harmed more people than the threat they are shooting at?

Guillermo
August 26, 2012, 01:10 PM
hey guys

I am enjoying reading the different views but if this thread drifts any more from revolvers, it is toast

wow6599
August 26, 2012, 01:11 PM
Yes, they should. I would like to see them use Ruger Blackhawks customized with S&W's ILS, i.e. - Hillary Hole.
SA and 6 rds. Isn't that "all" us common folk should be allowed? Low capacity with some stupid ILS. What's good for the goose......

Besides, the SA operation would cause them to aim, not spray and pray.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
August 26, 2012, 01:14 PM
Just like, we, as citizens, should not take a shot unless we know who it is we are shooting at and we know our backstop, the police should be even more proficient than us when it comes to their guns and accuracy!

They don't want citizens to speed, however, many times I see them speeding all over the place. Some young officers don't have over a million miles under their belt like I have!

If I question shooting a buck because the shot may not be 'humane' with a quick-kill, even more-so, the police should be able to hit their target and not everyone else in the entire area! A machine gun would do as good.

CraigC
August 26, 2012, 01:15 PM
I don't know all the details but would like to make one point. When people grow up in such an anti-gun environment, you can't really expect them to be any different. They're indoctrinated from birth to have a negative view of firearms. I'm sure a lot of them would rather not even carry a handgun. If you grew up in a completely anti-gun environment where private ownership was all but non-existent, would YOU want to seek further training in their use? Or would you do only what is necessary?

I live in the country and around here, cops and wildlife officers are shooters too. Totally different mindset. I never go into the local gun shop that one doesn't stop by.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
August 26, 2012, 01:21 PM
CraigC,
You have a valid point there. To one who opposes and despises guns, why would they want ANYTHING to do with one?
Perhaps those officers should not be permitted to have a firearm. After all, they take them away from the majority of civilians, why should they have something the civilians are not permitted to have?

Maybe one conceal-carry civilian that day could have been close enough for a one-shot kill to the bad guy without spraying everyone in sight.

Kleanbore
August 26, 2012, 01:27 PM
NO!

Guillermo
August 26, 2012, 01:28 PM
one conceal-carry civilian that day could have been close enough for a one-shot kill to the bad guy without spraying everyone in sight.

and probably get shot in the "spray and pray" onslaught from the badges

floorit76
August 26, 2012, 01:36 PM
Why would someone "uncomfortable" with firearms, weapons, and violence join an orginization that specializes in dealing with these things? I understand people that want to help, but become a teacher, or Emt, etc.
And how in this day in age can you dillude yourself to believe that as an armed officer in a city like NY, that you will never NEED to be fast and accurate with the weapon you are issued?

Friendly, Don't Fire!
August 26, 2012, 01:58 PM
You certainly have a valid point there. Also, when they are issued their service weapon, I wonder as well how much the person who despises guns to begin with is going to hang out at the range:rolleyes:, making themselves as proficient as possible with their weapon! As others mentioned, ESPECIALLY in a place where there are so many innocent bystanders anywhere there would be a bad guy!

Drail
August 26, 2012, 05:03 PM
If they had been issued, trained on and carrying revolvers the outcome would have been the same (except for total number rounds fired). It is simple lack of training by their Dept. The people at City Hall do not understand how important the training is and how much is required and how much practice is needed to retain skills. They would rather spend funds on other things. And NYPD is not the only Dept. suffering from this problem. This has been going on for quite a few years now all over the U.S. I watched the video over and over and the police response looked like the officers had little or no training and both severely over reacted. They in fact looked just like a couple of mall cops. They jerked their guns and sprayed and prayed. The cop on the left looked as though he had considerable difficulty getting his gun free of the holster. Everyone in N.Y. should be very disturbed and outraged by this and demand higher standards of conduct and training for their police. They can do better. A response like this does not keep anyone safer. This not "cop bashing". It is City Hall bashing.

EmGeeGeorge
August 26, 2012, 05:31 PM
Everybody needs to remember that a few of the last major mass shootings have involved permit holders, or lawfully possessed firearms...

Calling for "All NYPD Cops" (there are 40K+ of them) to be disarmed/down-armed is idiocy. A heavy NYPD trigger, plus stress, plus a host of other factors that have yet to be determined/presented contributed to the accidental shooting that occurred in the course of their duties.

If you want to apply the same logic, psych exams for all carriers or possessors of pistols, regular state-mandated training, and periodic reviews of eligibility(say every 3 months?) should be in order. Plus 5 shot revolvers with no reloads for carry only.

Gun violence per capita is half what it was in the '60's, police shootings are actually less frequent compared to the same time period.

The two cops are probably done career-wise. Most of their job doesn't involve pulling much less shooting their pistols. Maybe they were great at 99% of what their job entails, and the 1% they were grossly and sadly lacking in.

Who knows?

I hope that some of the backyard commando, arm chair quarterbacks never are in a situation where the media and public are dissecting their actions prior to the completion of an official investigation, (George Zimmerman anyone???), because opinions in the vacuum of totality of knowledge are worth as much as an [Fill in the Blank].

LeonCarr
August 26, 2012, 05:42 PM
If civilians were shot, then the police did not follow the four rules.

Revolvers would not have changed anything.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Vern Humphrey
August 26, 2012, 06:31 PM
We live in very violent dangerous society so police must carry high cap autos. NYC police handled that situation correctly.
Shooting 8 innocent bystanders doesn't meet my standard for "correctly."

This is Fearless Fosdick at work -- "The innocent bystandards fell to the ground with holes in their heads."

bikerdoc
August 26, 2012, 06:58 PM
I am old enough to have patroled the streets with a revolver and to have put down a perp with it.
It aint the tool, it is the training, leadership, and officer mindset.

Dont see much of those three any more.

Vern Humphrey
August 26, 2012, 07:01 PM
I am old enough to have patroled the streets with a revolver and to have put down a perp with it.
It aint the tool, it is the training, leadership, and officer mindset.

Dont see much of those three any more.
You summed it up very nicely.

Sam1911
August 26, 2012, 07:19 PM
Folks, if a thread gets closed, at least have the grace to discuss it with the Mod who closed it before you repost the same thread. :scrutiny:

We're discussing this event in several places now, that that's inefficient.

And, the basic premise is inane -- another "hardware" fix to a "software" problem, and silly to boot.

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