Case Mouth Uniformer


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sjohns
August 29, 2012, 12:52 AM
Where can I find a real one?

I do NOT want all this 30 degree or whatever chamferring crap that Google will ONLY lead me to.

I just want to be able to make the case mouth round again.

The AGI video I watched talked about one that would have different inserts for different calibers, and I would just like a source for one. It is used in the press.

All I find are these dam chamferring uniformers and chamferring is a completely different step. I have to get the mouths round first to test them for thickness.

Can anyone help?

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rcmodel
August 29, 2012, 01:25 AM
The AGI video I watchedWell, thats your problem right there!

Regardless of what your AGI reloading video says:
That is what reloading die sets are used for.

The expander in a two-die rifle set, or three die pistol set makes the case perfectly round and the right size for the bullet after sizing.

There is no such thing as a Case Mouth Uniformer that I ever heard of.
I have on occasion used an old pair of needle nose pliers to straighten out bent case mouths so they would fit in a resizing die.

You do need a chamfering tool, and you do need reloading dies to make case mouths uniform and bur free.

rc

sjohns
August 29, 2012, 12:31 PM
Thanks. Right. The sizing die should do it.

I wonder how long ago that video was made!

What he was using was about a half size die and apparently you could change out the inside for various calibers.

It does seem like such a simple thing that there ought to be plenty of them around.

Of course I have chamfer tools but those cut the brass and I just want to get the mouths uniformly round. I can do cutting and forming later.

So this guy was doing this so that he could measure case thickness at 4 90s with a micrometer so that he could decide how much to take off with the neck turner. NOT that people don't do this anyway, but it got frustrating trying to find the tool that would simply put the mouths back in shape.

Now I am thinking that a neck expander die will to the trick!

788Ham
August 29, 2012, 02:09 PM
rc won't steer you wrong, he's one of the best on this forum! You can take to the bank what he's telling you, I know!

Offfhand
August 29, 2012, 02:28 PM
Without having seen the video you refer to, it sounds like your are describing dedicated neck expanding dies and mandrels. Which are not the same as the expander plug in sizing dies. Offered by Sinclair and K&M, and probably other makers, these typically are replaceable mandrels of different sizes which fit holders that fit in standard loading presses. They are SOP for rounding out and uniforming necks on new brass, which often are dented and misshaped, and especially for expanding necks up from one size to another. The taper and exact size of these mandrels make rounding and expanding case necks much more precise and uniform than expander plugs in sizing dies. Which is why they are routinely used by reloading experts.

hentown
August 29, 2012, 03:51 PM
I run all new or 100% processed rifle brass through a neck-sizing die, only to make sure the mouths are round.

mdi
August 29, 2012, 05:24 PM
I found a punch (center punch, pin punch, drift pin, or ball punch, don't matter) with a taper that fit the mouth of the cartridge. It had a slow taper from the shaft back to the main body. Used by hand (push and twist) the punch will straighten, round out the case neck without removing any metal and/or flaring the case too much...

sjohns
August 30, 2012, 12:20 AM
Gotcha Offhand!

I ordered a die and internal arts for a neck expander from Midway today.

sjohns
August 30, 2012, 12:25 AM
What I have here is, at the moment, 250 LC 7.62 which I did not fire, so they WILL get sized to a 308 die. I have just been doing the stuff... primer pocket, flash hole. I can go ahead and size these. We'll see if sizing straightens out the case. Or maybe I can just wait for midway parts.

The video is: Handloading For The Long Range Shooter

Its an AGI Video.

fguffey
August 30, 2012, 12:24 PM
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=RCBS+neck+reamer+die+243+winchester

I have the 243 die, I also have the old Lee Target Model die sets, The RCBS reamer die is an expensive way to go, price does not include the reamer. For me the reamer die has multiple uses, I have formed 22/6mm Wildcat cases from 25/06 and 30/06 cases, forming donuts is not a bad habit for me, I anticipate them,. in my opinion there is not a more accurate method than the neck reamer die, again, the neck reamer die is not for everyone.

F. Guffey

sjohns
August 30, 2012, 01:44 PM
Is the main reason for using a neck reamer making the neck perfectly centered?

Then do you shave the outside of the case necks some where they need it?

fguffey
August 30, 2012, 03:26 PM
http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/CaseFormingAndTrimDies.pdf

Yes.

The neck reamer die is a sizer die without the neck sizer plug, the neck and case body is perfectly centered in the die first then the reamer is centered in the die, before reaming. The die centers the case, the die centers the reamer, removing donuts is a slow going process.

Nothing is done to the outside of the neck. Again, when available the Target Model Dies from Lee are a bargain, a neck reamer is included in each set.

F. Guffey

x_wrench
August 30, 2012, 04:45 PM
rc won't steer you wrong, he's one of the best on this forum! You can take to the bank what he's telling you, I know!

i will second that!

gamestalker
August 30, 2012, 05:14 PM
It sounds as though you may be referring to the process of turning the case necks? That process is what makes the neck thickness uniform 360 degrees around the outside. But as RC stated, the internal dimensions are going to be uniformed by the use of the sizing die.

GS

sjohns
August 30, 2012, 05:35 PM
That's why I was wondering why the other guy was using a neck reamer.

But that is probably for doing wild cat stuff and doing alot to make specific cases.

I found what I wanted. I got a neck expander because I want to make the necks round without resizing. If I have to resize, I can always take that next step.

OF COURSE... all you guys can tell that I am just getting started.
So I have done all the work on the once fired LC 7.62 and sized them to .308 Winchester.

I will check them for length next.

Once I get these loaded and shoot them, I will then have fire formed cases, right?

What will I have to do, then, other than check them for stretching?

It's my impression that once they are fire formed, I no longer need to resize them, but have to watch for neck stretching. They are then fitted to my chamber.

Am I right about that?

They just basically need to be cleaned and reloaded right?

gamestalker
August 30, 2012, 08:09 PM
Even after having been fire formed to your chamber it will still be necessary to resize the necks, or you won't have enough neck tension to hold the bullet. And after a couple three neck sizings you'll have to use some means of resetting the shoulders .002"- ish, some times referred to bumping the shoudlers back, or it becomes nearly impossible to chamber them. I use a FL die for this step, but there are other type dies that will take care of the shoulders as well.

GS

sjohns
August 30, 2012, 08:46 PM
So there are dies that shape the shoulders only?

You use Full Length dies right?

So then I need to resize them after every use?

But if I do that, then the entire length will be resized.

I thought the idea behind using ff brass was that it fit your chamber right.

sjohns
August 30, 2012, 09:07 PM
So putting these turkeys in a case length gauge (Lyman) I am finding that ALL of the bases are not flush in the gauge.

I have tried turning my Lee FL in a little but no real change.

What's the remedy for this?

I'm thinking I can't shoot these.

The rims DO enter the gauge backwards.

NeuseRvrRat
August 30, 2012, 11:25 PM
man, i think you need to take a step back and read a good reloading manual or two

sjohns
August 30, 2012, 11:56 PM
gee thanks for saying absolutely nothing!

I don't know what makes you think that this is the only source I am using.

I know my Lee 2nd edition is useless on this subject.

I have seen folks on You Tube use the case length headspace gauge.
That's what I have been talking about last.
All of these LC are not within tolerances at the rim end.

Since the brass will fit when inserted rim first, it is a shoulder problem.

Your length is right if the base is flush and the mouth end is within the tolerances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkWQde_b2G8

gamestalker
August 31, 2012, 01:08 AM
Seriously, you need to calm down and allow the information to sink in. For your safety, enjoyment, and desired results it would certainly be in your best interest to do some research and reading of good instructional reloading material. It won't benefit you to allow such an enjoyable hobby, such is this one, to get worked up and fruistrated with the process. And more importantly, your safety should be the primary approach to this hobby which rewuires an open mind and the ability to accept the advice and direction those who have been involved in it for decades. In this hobby we are working with pressures that can very easily inflict serious injury, and even sudden death.

Now if you would like to continue learning this hobby, it will greatly benefit you to first pick up a book, or two, that will lay it out for you in very easy to understand termenology and steps. The book that got me going on the right track was the Speer Reloading #10 ( 1st edition ). Although this book, now and then, does not contain a large number of loads, and those that are contained in it's pages are exclusive to Speer bullets and products for the most part. But as to the introduction and even advanced process of reloading, including fire forming brass, and turning necks down, this instructional manual is deffinitely one of the best for a beginner. I would suggest geting this book and several others that will answer just about any question you may have.

And for those difficult circumstances that come up from time to time, we are here to help if you can humble yourself enough to accept our direction and advice. I think I can safely speak for some of us in stating, that in general we will help you to diagnose issues one may encounter from time to time. But as to teaching the process from scratch, it is something that can be better learned through hands on instuction while utilizing an approved video or book that is considered as authentic, and hopefully published by one or more bullet or powder manufacturer sources.

I sincerely hope you don't allow your frustration to stand in the way of one of the most satisfying hobbies that involve the world of shooting sports.

GS

StandingTall
August 31, 2012, 08:20 AM
I found what I wanted. I got a neck expander because I want to make the necks round without resizing. If I have to resize, I can always take that next step.
<snip>

So I have done all the work on the once fired LC 7.62 and sized them to .308 Winchester.


OK...wait a minute. You got a neck expander because you don't want to resize, but then you say you've sized them? What did you use to size them? If all you're doing is rounding the neck, that's not sizing and you're doing it all wrong. If you've bought once-fired brass you need to FULL LENGTH size every one of them before firing them in your weapon.


Also, what are you firing these in?

atblis
August 31, 2012, 09:47 AM
1) The rim of the case in the gauge indicates head space. You would adjust that by moving the shoulder. This is accomplished via full length dies, or a body die.
2) If you're gauge indicates trim length by if the necks sticks out the front of the gauge, you would only check that after all sizing is done. That's the last thing you look at.

To simply put the mouths back in shape you could do this
ivk5pfOlrKQ

The Redding body die moves the shoulder without touching the neck.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/620746/redding-body-die-308-winchester

Pretty good write up about neck turning. It's recommended that you use a regular old full length die on you brass before neck turning (among other things).
http://www.6mmbr.com/neckturningbasics.html

Video regarding use of a case gauge.
wkWQde_b2G8

sjohns
August 31, 2012, 12:07 PM
Standing Tall!

No I got a neck sizer only because I simply want to get the necks round before sizing.

It may be a step that I don't really need.

I resized these because I didn't fire these out of my gun.

I realize that even with FF brass they need to be resized.

I have just been a wee bit ignorant hewre, but I am learning and BEING CAREFUL.

sjohns
August 31, 2012, 12:19 PM
gamestalker...

I am not very frustrated. I am just wondering which step to take next. I am not really rushing it either.

Yes I definitely need more books. My lee book is useless on this subject, as I have already mentioned. Thanks for the tip on the speer book.

I GET what you're saying. I am moving in baby stepes here and will evenyually know exactly what I am doing.

Do you not remember when you first began? It's a trip, and like anything, you learn as you move along. That's true about anything. But here, a mistake can be fatal to you or to your weapon.

I have Redding competition dies, and my ultimate goal will be to make my own match ammo. But that's in the future and no way now. Once I know what I am doing, then I can do that.

So, I am not upset, I am Not frustrated. I am just hoping to get helpful tips from folks who DO know what they are talking about.

Ok so... my brass doesn't fit the headspace gauge like it should. I just need good advice for the next move. It makes perfect logical sense that the shoulder needs to be moved.

But I have used the competition shell holders and it doesn't make much of a difference. Any suggestions?

Is nato and miltary brass thicker at the extraction rim? Doesn't seem like it would be!

If we were in the same room, doing this together, I would ask the same questions.

pretty simple, I would say.

sjohns
August 31, 2012, 12:24 PM
AtBliss Thanks!

I found the body die. There is also a shorter one? Does it make any difference which one I use?

I tried the FL die with various shell holder sizes. Since that didn't help, perhaps the body die will.

Thanks for that!

sjohns
August 31, 2012, 12:31 PM
Standing Tall...

These were lots of Lake City Brass that I got off of Gunbroker. 7.62 ammo is getting hard to find, if you haven't noticed yet, and one needs to jump on it right away. But if ya don't have the money at the moment, you get behind the curve.


So I decided to buy the brass and make my own. ( as well as for my other stuff)

I have an AR10. Armalite upper, but not lower because of Crackifornia's ideas. It's chambered for 7.62 not .308.

I am only going to try to make some rather regular shootable ammo here, nothing special.

I do understand (finally) that I will always have to resize my brass, it's just that with FF brass the length that fits that chamber is right. I did not know that before.

sjohns
August 31, 2012, 01:04 PM
Ok. So I ordered Speer's 14th edition and Lyman's 49th and body dies today.

we'll see where this leads.

StandingTall
August 31, 2012, 01:22 PM
Standing Tall...

These were lots of Lake City Brass that I got off of Gunbroker. 7.62 ammo is getting hard to find, if you haven't noticed yet, and one needs to jump on it right away. But if ya don't have the money at the moment, you get behind the curve.


So I decided to buy the brass and make my own. ( as well as for my other stuff)

I have an AR10. Armalite upper, but not lower because of Crackifornia's ideas. It's chambered for 7.62 not .308.

I am only going to try to make some rather regular shootable ammo here, nothing special.

I do understand (finally) that I will always have to resize my brass, it's just that with FF brass the length that fits that chamber is right. I did not know that before.
OK. Now that we know what kind of weapon you have it makes it a bit simpler as far as giving you advice.

Since you have a semi-auto, you will need to full length resize after every firing. You can't just neck size like you are able to with a bolt gun.

Check out this article:
http://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/Reloading%20Semiauto%20Rifles.pdf

sjohns
August 31, 2012, 02:34 PM
OK. Now that we know what kind of weapon you have it makes it a bit simpler as far as giving you advice.

Since you have a semi-auto, you will need to full length resize after every firing. You can't just neck size like you are able to with a bolt gun.

Check out this article:
http://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/Reloading%20Semiauto%20Rifles.pdf
Thank you Standing Tall.

I saved the pdf. nice file!

My real reason for wanting to neck size separately, is to use the micrometer on the brass, shave what I need to shave for the sake of concentricity, then do whatever else is needed. I see that I may be adding an unneeded step.

I reality, I don't even really want to neck size so much as just get them back into round.

Thanks. I don't mean to be frustrating in my posts by not articulating as well as I could.

I'll either say too much info, or not enough, like most people.

Thanks again,
Scott

PocketRocket
August 31, 2012, 02:43 PM
A semi-auto rifle does change the precision reloading procedures somewhat. However, there is a host of things that you can do to a case to make your rounds more accurate even if they’re going into a semi.

Offfhand suggested contacting Sinclair about their dies. I suggest contacting Sinclair about their precision loading manual. Sinclair is one of the best sources for precision loading stuff and equipment including actions. Warning: do not get their catalog -- it will make you crazy with desire for most of their wares.

PS - Sinclair is pricey…oh, yeah! :eek:

sjohns
August 31, 2012, 02:47 PM
Thanks PocketRocket!

Yep, I'm familiar with Sinclair!

sjohns
September 6, 2012, 04:24 PM
No matter what, I still can't seem to get the used brass to fit the headspace guage the same as new loaded rounds do.

My Lyman 49th edition arrived today and also my Speer 14th edition.

NEITHER book says enough about bumping the shoulders.

So how is it done? Can someone who has actually done it let me know please?

Using a Body Die from redding and a .010 shell holder brings it close, but it still isn't right.

I do not have any URL for pics. If they can't upload directly from my computer they aren't coming.

sjohns
September 6, 2012, 06:34 PM
I went out to a friend's house and we fooled around until I got it right.

I'm using my Lee sizing die and a 010+ shell holder.

atblis
September 7, 2012, 08:36 AM
Make sure to lube the insides of the neck when full length sizing or neck sizing. The Lee collet die doesn't require lube. I've found that the expander ball can pull the shoulder forward.

jjjitters
September 7, 2012, 11:04 AM
Some sizing die bodies need to be turned off (.05" is common) to be able to drop them down far enough to bump the shellholder, as you found out by using the +.01 shellholder. Since you have the Forster dies, you can do that to yours(I've done several), then the extra holder won't be needed.Just another way of solving the issue you had.

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