Help wanted selecting first black powder rifle


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Trent
September 2, 2012, 11:24 AM
OK, I need an education.

I have never shot black powder, or muzzle loader before. However, if I want to hunt in my state, I have a choice of muzzle loader, shotgun, hand gun, or bow.

If I want a muzzle loading rifle accurate enough to shoot at the range to 300 yards (for fun), and potent enough to take a deer ... What should I get?

FWIW I own a 50 BMG and several other large caliber rifles, so "big frigging booms" and me get along JUST fine and dandy, the bigger the better... :)

And can someone walk me through start to finish on what equipment I need to go along with it, and how the basic process works?

Thanks. :)

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kBob
September 2, 2012, 12:30 PM
Trent,

Welcome to the dark side! Given the amount of money you spend on semi auto former 'chine guns, this is gonna be cheap.

I personally like revolvers, though given your other guns you might want to consider a military rifle of some sort like an 1853 Enfield.

I personally feel that a cap and ball revolver like a Colt 1860, or 1851 is a good place to start.

I am sure a lot of folks will leap on this and give you more info that you can use, but I would right off the bat go to the sticky on this board for "Black Powder Essentuals" That will answer likely MOST of your questions.

Do not believe horror stories about cleaning BP guns....you have a much harder time when a round of corrosive ammo gets through on of your belt guns than you will ever have with BP.

You might want to look at the varius clubs on this board to get a feel for what you might like. Use the search function for "club".

It occurs to me that a guy into so much modern stuff might like to look into the Ruger Old Army, Bill Ruger's take on Cap and Ball revolvers. I was looking at a stainless steel model yeaterday myself.

Good luck with a new addiction.

-kBob

Malachi Leviticus Blue
September 2, 2012, 12:44 PM
It sounds to me like you are looking for a Muzzle loading Rifle. If that's true, the first thing to decide is if you want a traditional style rifle with a side lock or even flint, or a modern inline ignition system. I'm guessing from your post that your inclined toward an inline. There may be a few gasps of horror form some purists reading that but I'm guessing that's what you're looking for. To that end, if your not trying to get out cheep, you should be able to pick up a a Thompson Center Encore in 50 cal almost anywhere and will get great performance shooting sabots.

If you get more specific on what direction your looking to go, I'm sure you will get a lot of great advice here.

isaacdavis1214
September 2, 2012, 03:16 PM
I am new to BP too,but i got a great deal and bought a traditional cap lock .50 caliber Renegade Hunter rifle for $220,i shot it last Wednesday for the first time and let me tell you,even though i was shooting Pyrodex RS you still couldn't see the target when you pulled the trigger!I suggest a traditional rifle (but that's just me,i wanted a gun that functioned like they did in the Civil War) but that's up to you.BUT from what i know shooting a Patched Round Ball (PBR) is cheaper than shooting a conical out of an inline,and speaking from my VERY limited experience the gun wasn't as hard as you may be imagining cleaning when i got it home.

Also,for me anyway loading the gun is half the fun.I hope whichever direction whether it be an Inline,Traditional or even a Cap n Ball Revolver you enjoy it,also a .50 caliber rifle is enough to take a deer.Good luck in whatever you choose!

Jim, West PA
September 2, 2012, 03:30 PM
Trent, read the Sticky here. first post at top o' the page titled "Black Powder Esentials".
It'll git ya squared away pronto.

Oh yeah, welcome to 'sootsville'.

WARNING !!!!
Once you go black, you never go back.
:neener:

Trent
September 2, 2012, 05:52 PM
Just when you think you know everything there is to know about a subject, you encounter a sub field within where you know absolutely NOTHING.

Shooting and reloading for 15+ years, and I feel like a newborn baby seeing sunlight for the first time. Kind of a neat feeling.

Of course, next thing you know ... I'll be asking about cannons. I know myself too well to think I won't go and follow a subject all the way through to the deep end. :)

V1ROT8
September 2, 2012, 06:23 PM
My first muzzleloader was an inexpensive CVA rifle on sale at Cabella's. Did not know if I would enjoy hunting this way. Wow, nice buck sealed the deal. First morning out. Since then I have spent way too much money on this facet of hunting. Sootsville is contageous. And much fun. Would still advise going inexpensive. Enjoy your first season and go from there.

St8LineGunsmith
September 2, 2012, 08:21 PM
I would start out with something inexpensive to see if you are going to stick with it.
go to some pawn shops around your area and see what they have to offer
Shine a light down the bore to make sure it is in good condition you are looking for erosion in the breech area and any heavy pitting.
I would recommend a .50 caliber Hawken plains rifle to start out with.
To be realistic I would practice at 50 to 100 yards at first.
each rifle will have its own characteristic of how much powder will be the most accurate charge at certain distances.
I have found that 75 Gn of black powder is ideal for round ball at 50 to 100 yards in my Hawken style rifle
a different length barrel or one with a different rifling twist rate may shoot better with a lighter or heavier powder charge .
shop around and read a lot
look around bor a CVA bob cat this will be a percussion rifle and if you can find one New in the box it should cost no more than $100.00
CV
A no lnger makes traditonal style rifles so the model may be a hard find for a new one however you may be able to find one used for 50 to 75 dollars.
this is just an example of what you might want to look for I would suggest starting out with a percussion lock.

mykeal
September 2, 2012, 09:53 PM
Folks, he set 'accurate at 300 yards' as the specification. Nothing anyone has mentioned so far comes close to meeting that requirement.

Trent - if you're serious about that you're looking at a pretty narrow field: a Sharps or a Pedersoli Gibbs in something like 45-70.

St8LineGunsmith
September 2, 2012, 10:28 PM
Mykael
That is why I said practice at more realistic ranges like 50 and 100 yards
you can make 300 yard shots with a .50" hawken with ample amounts of practice.and the right rainbow trajectory:D
not a realistic range for trying to take game but only for the purpose of doing it for fun
45-70 aint going to be any more accurate than a .50" at 300 yards check out the ballistics for the .45-70 black powder cartridge

isaacdavis1214
September 3, 2012, 12:42 AM
''And can someone walk me through start to finish on what equipment I need to go along with it, and how the basic process works?

Thanks.''

I will TRY and answer this question as i'm sure there might be something else i might need,but here is stuff you will need or will just make it easier and or is personal preference.

Range Rod (it's better and longer than the wooden ram rod that comes with the gun,i picked up a 35'' inch Aluminum ram/range rod at Wal-Mart for $20-ish bucks,so far so good.)

Cleaning Jag for the proper caliber of gun you have (holds patches,you probably already know this though.)

Caps (this is what ignites the powder charge on a bp rifle and or pistol,they sell #11 percussion caps at the local Wal-Mart for $5 or so for 100,if your using a modern inline yours will require 209 shotgun primers.)

Cleaning patches (self explanitory)

Ammo (Balls/Sabots/Minnie Balls whatever your gun can/will shoot accirately)

Powder Measure (so you can accurately measure out how much powder to pour into the gun and adjust it accordingly,some people will use a flask to pour from,i purchased a pour spout that fits over my Pyrodex can so i just pour from my can into the measure.)

Ball Starter (to get the ball started 4 inches down the muzzle so you can then take your ram/range rod and seat it all the way against the powder,not sure if you will need this if you go with an inline muzzleloader.)

Patch Puller (used to pull patches that have fell into the bore of the rifle.I have already had to use this once already lol)

Ball Puller (i personally do not have this yet.)

Some rust prevenative oil (i have used Break Free CLP,some people use Ballistol,some even Olive Oil ect.But for the majority of the cleaning hot soapy water will do.)

Pre-Lubed Patches (this is for a traditional bp rifle shooting patched round balls,if i was shooting a minie ball or it's equivelant i would just have to lube the bullet,you can also use pillow ticking and it is way cheaper.I personally have not done so and so far find pre lubed patches more convenient.)

Muzzle Protector (i do not have one of these either.)

The loading process goes something like this note i am describing how the process goes with a traditional muzzleloading rifle shooting a patched round ball.If you choose an Inline it might be a little different,you pour a measured powder charge down the barrel,and smack the side with your hand to make sure it is settled to the bottom,then you place a pre-lubed patch and ball over the muzzle,take one side of your short starter and get the ball started just below the muzzle,then take the 4 inch side and ram it down the bore.Then take your Range Rod and seat the patch and ball against the powder,and last but not least take a percussion cap and place it on the hammer of the gun and FIRE!!

Shooting a bp gun is a whole lot of fun,as i've said i am VERY new to bp and bp shooting myself,i fired my first 13 shots out of the gun just last week.Hope you enjoy it as much as i do.Hope this helped.

Trent
September 3, 2012, 02:59 AM
Well, Illinois regulations are pretty specific about hunting, needs to be a muzzleloader. 45-70 is out of the question for that application.

When I go to the range, I usually shoot 300 yards iron sights (we have 100, 200, 250 yard backstops but I like shooting at 300).

Is there is a muzzleloader that'll be accurate enough to shoot at 300? Or will I need to get two guns, one for hunting, one for range trips?

kBob
September 3, 2012, 01:15 PM
OK so I got all excited with trent coming over here and went off on a revolver tangent when he wanted a rifle.

I still think that given Trents other apparent interests some thing military might be his best bet.

I do like the Enfields and I think there is not a thing wrong with one of the Mississippi Rifles.

As to buying used... instead of shining a light down the barrel get a AAA maglite and drop it down the barrel turned on. If you ease it in light first pointed down the bore and take your time sliding it down you can see a lot.

I suppose one of the Hawken or plains type hunting rifles might be fine for hunting and for just getting your feet wet......also something to give the boys when you are ready to move on to military rifles. They certainly do take a lot of deer at reasonable ranges every year. You can get them a simple as you like or with a plastic stock, camoflauged, with a scope mount and low power hunting scope and have Fire sights as a back up And use patched round ball, bullets that are engraved by the rifling as they are shoved home or plastic sabots holding a modern heavy pistol bullet if thats what you want.

Not sure who has the Whitworth or "Volunteer" rifles these days but they are the closest you are going to come to long range accuracy out of the box. The Whitworth was designed for a mechnacally fitted bullet. Whitworth developed six sided polygonal rifling to spin his six sided bullets, but paper patched traditional slugs can be used. The "Volunteer" rifles tend to look like a Whitworth (which itself looks like an Enfield 1853 rifle) but have more traditional rifling for paper patched bullets. Whitworths bullet experienments gave us the 4 caliber bullet, that is a bullet four times as long as its diameter as a guideline for long range performance.

Also the Whitworth and Volunteer type rifles were the sniper rifles of the American War Between the States......you know before Machine guns were common. If I had your play money one of those two rifles would already be in the Big Brown Box of Happiness and headed my way.

If you are really thinking about cannons keep in mind there are cannons suited for making noise and flash and there are cannons for shooting projectiles. Look around for a battery or single gun based club before you even think about spending money. Spend some time learning the gunners' hop and what it really takes to keep a gun going before you dash out and buy one.

When I was in Germany my shooting club had a fair number of mini cannoneers that used scale model cannon in .69 and .58 caliber.....just the thing for setting on the coffee table for guests to see!

-kBob

St8LineGunsmith
September 3, 2012, 01:26 PM
I never meant to imply that a .45-70 is considered as a Primative weapon
my reply was more directed to Mykael.
as far as the 300 yard ranges a long rifle will be better suited for long ranges you might want to look at some of the military copys of rifled bore muzzleloaders that use a conical bullet for long range shooting.
you are not going to get that kind of range with a round ballwith any kind of consistent accuracy.

CraigC
September 3, 2012, 02:44 PM
You can shoot 300yds at inanimate objects with virtually anything. To do this with a muzzleloader, it will need a faster twist to shoot conicals, rather than roundball. If you want to shoot critters at 300yds, you're in the wrong forum.

St8LineGunsmith
September 3, 2012, 03:11 PM
the second lone in the OP..."I want a muzzle loading rifle accurate enough to shoot at the range to 300 yards (for fun),"

reading is fundemental

CraigC
September 3, 2012, 03:36 PM
reading is fundemental (you mean fundamental?)
Indeed, so is spelling, punctuation and capitalization. He also said "However, if I want to hunt in my state, I have a choice of muzzle loader, shotgun, hand gun, or bow".

Continue with your petty nonsense and you won't last long around here.

mykeal
September 3, 2012, 07:55 PM
Civility, unfortunately, is not fundamental.

BHP FAN
September 3, 2012, 08:31 PM
Civil War!

CraigC
September 3, 2012, 09:20 PM
Civility, unfortunately, is not fundamental.
Well, you did not receive the nasty PM from "St8LineGunsmith", containing as many asterisks as letters, that I did.

loose noose
September 3, 2012, 09:58 PM
Trent getting back to the original drift of your request, and also adding to Isaac's post, besides what he mentioned you might want a good sharp patch knife, to cut the patch after you put the roundball over the patch and insert it in the end of the barrel with the starter rod, that's at the ball end of the starter rod. As far as shooting at 300 yards, I know it can be done, but I sure as heck couldn't do it. I've been shooting BP for over 40 years and never could get much accuracy out of a muzzle loader over 100 yards. Good luck and welcome aboard.

Loyalist Dave
September 4, 2012, 12:01 PM
Folks, perhaps we might ask Trent to tell us what "accurate" means to him at 300 yards?

With patched round ball, during the Napoleonic Wars, hitting anywhere on a 2' x 6' target was considered "accurate" at 300 yards.

Some inline rifles with a correct sabot round, and a good scope, could do so quite well, but you will need a lot of time and money to determine that load, depending on what amount of accuracy is desired. For hunting..., that may be really pushing the capabilities too far.

Historic reproduction rifles, such as this 1853 Enflied (http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_350/rifles-enfield-enfield-3-band-pattern-1853-rifle-musket.html) are patterned after rifles that were known to be used for sniping in the Civil War. But, as with the patched round ball Napoleonic referece, sniping at a human has a bit more margin for error than hunting deer or winning match competions. For tighter accuracy one might consider a Gibbs (http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_1/rifles-gibbs.html) or a Whitworth (http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_126/rifles-mortimer-mortimer-whitworth-standard.html).

If it was my choice, I'd probably go with the Enfield do to money constraints, and plink out to 300 yards, but when hunting keep the game to within 100 yards.

LD

Trent
September 4, 2012, 12:52 PM
For hunting, 50 yards or under would probably be the norm. But to be honest, I don't know for sure. I haven't hunted deer before - despite having all these guns, I actually don't own a single one that would be legal to hunt deer with in Illinois. Separate topic there; the two places I currently know I can go hunt, I'd be unlikely to get a clear line of sight past 50 yards.

But, that being said, I like a challenge, which is where the other requirement comes in. :)

If that means two rifles, one muzzle loader for hunting, one cartridge based for plinking, so be it.

For the range, I'd like something that is as accurate as possible.

Since it seems unlikely I'll meet both criteria with one rifle, let's look at it separately.

One muzzleloading rifle for hunting.

One cartridge fed rifle for accurate shooting out to 300.

And we'll add a budget; $3,000 or under for the whole kit.

Trent
September 4, 2012, 01:46 PM
PS there is actually a logical reason for the range rifle being as accurate as possible.. if I can't hit what I aim at, I'll lose interest quickly. Whereas, if I can hit at 300 yards on a 15" target reliably, it will likely be tossed in to the car every range trip.

With my scoped bolt guns, even 300 yards is somewhat boring.. which is why lately I've been shooting the iron sight / no magnification stuff at that distance.

Then, there's a matter of pride. You know, that feel good thing that rewards your ego for doing the difficult stuff. It completes my feedback loop at the range. :)

Mike OTDP
September 4, 2012, 02:04 PM
No need for a cartridge rifle. The only question is how heavy a rifle you want.

All the long-range (or even medium-range) target rifles hit hard enough to take a deer without problems.

There are two basic options for a long-range gun. Rifle-musket or Target rifle.

The rifle-muskets were the standard infantry arm of the second half of the Civil War. For your uses, a replica will do nicely. The very best will be custom-made - go over to the North-South Skirmish Association board at www.n-ssa-org and ask around. However, Pedersoli just introduced a new series of Enfield reproductions (the first shipments are en route to the USA now) that are getting rave reviews. You can also pick up a used gun that has been worked over for maximum accuracy. Most of the Italian replicas are like 1911s, they need to be reworked but can shoot well with tuning.

As for a proper long-range target rifle, it's either a custom gun or the Pedersoli Gibbs rifle. Either way, you're talking a heavy beast designed for prone shooting at 600-1,000 yards. But they will shoot accurately with a properly worked up load.

Either way, you should be able to equip yourself for under $2K. Much under, if you shop around.

Trent
September 4, 2012, 02:20 PM
Ok, insofar as cartridge guns go... aside from powder volume, are there any inherent accuracy differences in .45-70, .45-90, or .45-100 cartridges? I would think the higher velocity means a flatter trajectory, but that doesn't necessarily mean better accuracy.

I'm so lost here it's not even funny. I went on Dixie gun works, and was looking through muzzle loading and cartridge black powder rifles, but everything for sale might as well be written in ancient Egyptian or Arabic; my brain doesn't recognize any of the names!

At this point in the juncture, my buying prowess is about as good as closing my eyes, pointing at a random spot on the screen, and checking out.

I'd rather make an informed decision but with the sheer number of different models and variations of rifles out there, it would take months or years of research to arrive at an educated decision.

I've spent 15 years learning about modern military small arms. I can take apart and reassemble just about anything blindfolded, tell you what every part, notch, recess is designed to do, troubleshoot most anything, even give you a brief (or long) history on just about anything that has been fired in anger since the advent of smokeless powder.

But here.. fellas.. I'm a fish out of water. :)

Since I like reloading, I have no doubt I'd enjoy a cartridge arm. I take a great deal of pleasure loading and plunking mellow 45 Colt cartridges in to my lonely Armi wheelgun and plugging cans out back.

Since I want to learn to hunt, I have no doubt I'd also enjoy a muzzleloader.

So now the thread is "help me pick my first TWO blackpowder rifles".

300 yards is the max range I have available readily, and that's the side of the shooting range I always set my stuff up on. So on the cartridge rifle, I would like to be able to put rounds on a 15" square target at that distance, so 5 MOA is kind of a guideline; any less accurate than that, and I'm going to be frustrated. There's also a 50 yard backstop on that side of the range for sighting, so the muzzle loader will also find a home there for hunting practice.

kBob
September 4, 2012, 02:33 PM
BHP,

Via an act of the US congress it was the War Between the States.......and Great Great Grandpa Steven of various Florida Regiments (state regiments all) saw nothing civil about it I am sure.

But lets not get started...again....

-kBob

Trent
September 4, 2012, 02:41 PM
OK OK OK enough someone just point me to a rifle or two I can click "BUY NOW" on that'll get the job done lol!

Trent
September 4, 2012, 06:33 PM
C'mon, surely someone has a smokewagon recommendation I can act on.

My first acquisition will be on blind faith - so guide me in the form of a link to something I can buy. :)

Dixiejack
September 4, 2012, 06:47 PM
I have always wanted a Gibbs style rifle, but with a left hand lock. Putting together the iron would not be as hard as finding a good stock maker.

mykeal
September 4, 2012, 07:52 PM
If you want to stay with muzzleloaders, the Pedersoli Gibbs in .451 is the rifle of choice for the majority of long range match shooters.

OTOH, the Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 is a very popular BPCR for long range shooting. AFAK there's really no difference in 45-70, -90 or -120 as far as accuracy is concerned. The choice is determined more by the size of game one wants to hunt. For punching holes, stay with the 45-70 - it won't hurt nearly as much.

Hunting rifle: Lyman Great Plains flintlock in .54 cal. is my personal choice; the choices here are huge and very personal.

kBob
September 4, 2012, 08:20 PM
Trent,

The Gibbs was a target rifle used by many members of the British Volunteer Rifles Corps in matches not governed by British military standards requiring an Enfield type rifle. If you want accuracy more than you want military loooks you might consider listening to the guys recomending the Gibbs.

-kBob

whosyrdaddy
September 5, 2012, 12:17 AM
OK OK OK enough someone just point me to a rifle or two I can click "BUY NOW" on that'll get the job done lol!

OK, HERE (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=304483055)

C'mon, surely someone has a smokewagon recommendation I can act on.

My first acquisition will be on blind faith - so guide me in the form of a link to something I can buy.

Well, if you are willing to forgo the "Buy Now" stipulation, you may be able to get a (IMHO) much better deal like maybe THIS (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=303865075) one.

Both guns are equipped with high quality barrels featuring fast twist, shallow grooved rifling well suited for sabots or paper patched conicals. They also perform well with tightly patched round balls when combined with low to moderate charges.

CraigC
September 5, 2012, 02:18 AM
The Pedersoli Gibbs is a gorgeous rifle. I always make it a point to handle one every time I go to Dixie Gun Works. Very comfortable, very well balanced and very, very tempting.

Trent
September 5, 2012, 11:55 AM
CraigC - like this one?

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=8297

Trent
September 5, 2012, 12:01 PM
whosyrdaddy - looks like those Knight's have really rave reviews on accuracy, too.

kBob
September 5, 2012, 12:27 PM
Trent ,

I know things must have changed at Dixie since Turner passed on but you might try giving them a call and asking to talk to someone about the Gibbs and all you might need to make it work.

The Gibbs is the rifle the first Creedmore shooters had to beat with their new fangled breech loaders.....and it was not easy even with all the advantages of breech loading.

-kBob

CraigC
September 5, 2012, 01:18 PM
CraigC - like this one?
That's it! They ain't light or cheap but they are mighty fine. I kinda wish they made a sporting model 2lbs lighter and in .50cal.

Cosmoline
September 5, 2012, 02:14 PM
The difference between the various BPCR cartridges has to do with the amount of powder you want to pack. Also when you're dealing with modern .45-70 or .50-70 cases it can be very difficult to load to their original parameters because our brass is thicker and not balloon headed. It can be done with a compression die but it's tricky. So usually people have de facto downloaded rounds with those. If you move up to the bigger "buffalo" rounds beyond the military ones then you have more room to play with powder-wise. But the down side is those rounds tend to be far more exotic and can be tough to find brass and components for. Whereas .45-70 is a piece of cake to find equipment for.

Overall I have had the most fun with flintlocks but for efficiency and ease at the range the cartridge guns are way better. You can take the time to tool your loads at home beforehand, and you can make your own drop tube and such pretty easily.

It sort of depends on what you're after. If you want to shoot maybe 25 rounds a session and don't have a lot of rain to worry about at your range, the flinters are loads of fun. Smoothbores are quicker to load but less accurate.

FWIW I've found caplocks to be *less* reliable than flintlocks. Go figure. With a flint so long as your frizzen face is tempered and your flash hole unclogged, the worst that happens is it sometimes takes two tries. But caplocks can have more serious issues. I've had a number of them go "click click click" while everyone else is waiting on me on the line. Ur-simple flinters at least make go boom.

If you want to get maximum accuracy and power, the cartridge rifles may be the way to go. A good one with a fine-tuned load can easily match the accuracy of an average modern bolt action rifle, believe it or not. And since they use conical slugs of often enormous mass, they take your hunting range from a max of maybe 150 yards out to twice that or more. They're like artillery pieces. The trajectory issues can be addressed with good pre-sighting before your hunt. With a sharp eye and good sights they are absolutely viable long-range hunting rifles. In fact they evolved from long-range sniping rifles during the CW and became famous as long range buff guns. Those huge, low-velocity rounds are killers even out at half a mile.

They can be somewhat complicated to load for and the learning curve is steep for things like paper patched bullets. But the open breech allows for much easier cleaning between rounds. And the fact that you have your loads prepared ahead of time means your session can last all day with periodic barrel cleanings. I like them because I can get them ready ahead of time and not have to worry about getting in conversations a the range and loading a dry ball.

Prices range all over the place. Some of the Sharps are crazy expensive, but you can find refurbed rolling blocks or replica trapdoors for reasonable prices. I've got an antique .50-70 roller that shoots surprisingly good.

CraigC
September 5, 2012, 02:41 PM
I've found caplocks to be *less* reliable than flintlocks.
I've never used a flintlock but the folks that use them often, never complain about reliability. I have issues with my percussion rifles constantly. Last season I had a doe stand and wait for me to recap my Lyman and put one through her boiler room. I'm ready for a good flintlock.

onetohunt
September 5, 2012, 06:47 PM
Trent I love BP. The rifle that I have found that seems to do it all for me are the Knights. I really like the bolt style rifles. The Mountaineer is a real shooter and can make that 300 yard shot you are talking about. Give them a look, I don't think you will be dissappointed.

MidwestProwler
September 7, 2012, 12:13 AM
To answer your questions. Accuracy at 300 yards. A dead on zero at 300 yards would put you at almost 8in high at 50 yards, 13in high at 100 yards, 14 1/2in high at 200 yards, 5 1/2 high at 275 yards & dead on at 300 yards. As you can see this would mean you need to aim very low at closer ranges to hit your target. Most any modern inline muzzleloader with modern sabot ammo in 45 cal with 50 cal sabot will reach 300 with accuracy but having some energy left to kill clean with is another story at 300 yards. With magnum load of powder that is not smokeless powder you are left with around 850 ft/lbs or less at 300 yards. Note magnum powder loads are rarely as accurate also & you would need to dial in the scope for wind every shot or dial for closer shots like a sniper would do. You could guess & hold over or under but that would not be very accurate at all. Some scopes have drop compensation & rise but not to 15 inches that's extreme & would require you to dial the scope - count clicks every shot. This is also why a sniper has a spotter with a scope this is part of his job to instruct the sniper of wind elevation so on.. The sniper just dials it in.

The Savage 10ML-II is the only true smokeless powder capable inline bolt action muzzleloader & due to using modern smokeless powder would be much more capable for your intended 300 yard goal. A patched round ball could hit a target 300 yards away but remember its made of lead like a shotguns slug not jacketed so it will flatten out in flight like a blob accuracy goes right out the window at that range along with ft/lbs.


I understand from your post you intend to use this for deer hunting. My advice would be go check your state laws. Can you use a scope? Can you use sabot ammo & what size restrictions on projectile or muzzleloader if any? Are you limited to only black powder or approved BP subs such as pyrodex? Is blackhorn 209 powder legal to use during the season? What restrictions apply to ignition type? Are Inlines legal?

If all goes well with the above I would recommend for deer hunting out to about 200 yards max range a Thompson Center Omega 50 cal with stainless barrel & laminated thumb-hole stock. For a cheaper option get the Omega z5 version if will do just as well. I would top it with a standard scope of good quality like this http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting/scopes/shotgunmuzzleloader-scopes/ultimateslam-2-7x33mm/

A 3-9 magnification scope may be more to your liking if you plan on most shots at 200+ yards. If you posses the skill set & want to dial the scope every shot for wind & drop or rise at different ranges by all means get a scope capable of field dialing like a tactical scope it will cost you tho.

As for equipment have a look at my youtube channel It will give you a good idea of what your getting into. I know people will recommend a bunch of guns to you but keep the following in mind in your decision. A break action inline won't be as accurate due to hing pin like a single shot shotgun. Under recoil it introduces poi or point of impact changes. Stick to a bolt action or a drop action like the Omega design with a fixed barrel position free floated. The breech plug design is important if you plan on using blackhorn 209. Example some CVA inlines require you to purchase a blackhorn 209 capable breech plug. The thompson center omega was the test gun for blackhorn 209 it is truly a very amazing powder & that gun has never had a problem with it. Primers are not all created equal that's why I use CCI 209 Magnum shot shell primers not the special muzzleloader ones. The powder I use also calls for this & my gun is capable of using both of them from the factory. I have seen ignition problems with this setup but that was due to user error such as using wrong primer type.

Hope this helps any questions I may be able to help you with just shoot me a pm. Here is a link to my channel with some good accurate information http://www.youtube.com/user/MidwestProwler/videos The videos to watch muzzleloader vs shotgun pt 1 & pt 2 slug gun ammo & muzzleloader ammo.

Have fun be safe :D

Trent
September 7, 2012, 12:08 PM
MidwestProwler-

That is one heck of a first post. Welcome to THR. :)

As far as legality:


Legal Firearms

Shotguns, loaded with slugs only, of not larger than 10 gauge nor smaller than 20 gauge, not capable of firing more than 3 consecutive slugs; or
Single or double barreled muzzleloading rifles of at least .45 caliber shooting a single projectile through a barrel of at least sixteen inches in length; or
Centerfire revolvers or centerfire single-shot handguns of .30 caliber or larger with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches.

Additional Muzzleloading Restrictions\

A muzzleloading firearm is defined as a firearm that is incapable of being loaded from the breech end.

Only black powder or a "black powder substitute" such as Pyrodex may be used. Modern smokeless powders are an approved blackpowder substitute only in muzzleloading firearms that are specifically designed for their use.

Percussion caps (shotgun primers are legal), wheellock, matchlock or flint type ignition only may be used, except the Connecticut Valley Arms (CVA) electronic ignition shall be legal to use.

MidwestProwler
September 8, 2012, 01:28 AM
Thanks for the warm welcome. I just seen your post & know how it is to be starting out in the BP world. To many people have been hurt with inaccurate information about black powder guns. Here is another link to more information & research about BP guns then you will ever need not saying this guy is god or nothing but he knows his stuff. http://www.randywakeman.com/inline.htm You can find answers & accurate info to just about any question you have at that link just scroll down enjoy :D P.S. With the laws you posted I would go with this http://www.lg-outdoors.com/proddetail.asp?prod=28732 or for cheaper http://www.lg-outdoors.com/proddetail.asp?prod=46007 It will be just as good but I would much prefer the stainless fully upgraded model it is what I own & a true sub moa gun. I would top it with a leupold scope they can take serious abuse & still hold zero. I ran mine over with the truck by mistake god as my witness. Don't ask how it happened lol but it still holds zero clear as a bell also I will never need another warranty for life is nice to :) yet to use it. I would only shoot this powder in it http://www.blackhorn209.com/ from the laws you posted this should be fine. & I like this deer stopper http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1250132182/barnes-spit-fire-t-ez-muzzleloading-bullets-50-caliber-sabot-with-45-caliber-250-grain-polymer-tip-flat-base By the way for a 45 cal bullet of any kind in that gun the hph-24 sabot is the way to go not to tight not to loose amazing accuracy. The spitfire t-ez come with this sabot in package cheaper to buy the bullet & sabots separate tho. I put my faith in http://truprep.com/store/cci-magnum-primer-209-shot-1pk.html never fails to go boom rain sleet snow. Clean with this http://www.hoppes.com/products/solvents.html I would refrain from using t7 pyrodex or any other powder it's not worth it with a little research you will see why. Your laws are well about the same as mine in my state this is the setup I use & never fails to amaze me or the guys at the range or in the field. You do your part it will make you smile every shot but let you know it's capable of more & that's a good feeling makes me practice more for sure.

mykeal
September 8, 2012, 07:21 AM
Not to start a flame contest or anything, but just to let you know - there are different opinions about Randy Wakeman in the black powder community. This is The High Road, so I'll refrain from further comment.

MidwestProwler
September 8, 2012, 06:41 PM
I agree. However the information he provides with ballistics & testing using a gun range chronograph seem to be accurate if compared to other information from other sources. The only information I would believe may be inaccurate would be information in regards to CVA. I feel that's how opinions of him come to be what they are in the BP world today. He puts such a high standard on safety & the track record of firearms as history shows it. CVA has a bad past not to say this is the case today or to knock CVA arms. I however do like thompson center arms & faced this dilemma when I was in the market for a muzzleloader. My choice was based on my own research not on Randy & his word. I found that CVA arms are made overseas not always a bad thing but T/C arms are all made & assembled in the U.S.A with US grade material such as steel. I also wanted to shoot blackhorn209 powder I was told by CVA I would have to buy a breech plug that could be used for this from them at that time. However a newer CVA may not need this as I think they are now supplied with this from factory in the little town of Bergara in northern Spain. Note not all of them come from this location some are manufactured on-site in Spain or sourced from other manufacturers. This I really did not like at all who knows what your getting. You may get one from Spain accurate as all get out or China or who knows with totally different accuracy. The last reason I leaned to the T/C arms. The Omega was the test gun for blackhorn 209 the powder I wanted to use. T/C has a very good history the Omega is proven & withstood the test of time. Warranty lifetime transferable CVA offer this but not transferable. I wanted someone that would stand behind the product 100% it also gives the product a much higher resale value with this. I know the price is higher on T/C made arms but I would pay it for all the pros listed above but that's me. I would do some research on whatever gun you may be looking to buy. The CVA arms are priced lower I know for a fact they are shooters with accuracy seen them on range many times. I however IMHO feel it's not the gun for me. I like Knight made inlines good history proven. T/C same deal. Savage made one of the most sought after held to center-fire standards & test unlike any other muzzleloader proven - withstood test of time also. That's why I would recommend any of them. T/C is also the most copied inline to date they started it all.

mykeal
September 9, 2012, 10:40 AM
I own, and shoot, black powder guns made by Lyman, Investarms, CVA, Thompson Center, Bondini, Zoli, Uberti, Pietta, Palmetto, FAUL, ASM, Euroarms/ASP, Pedersoli, Ruger, Knight, IAB, Jager and Colt. My experience with CVA, starting in 1970, has been nothing but positive. My experience with Mr. Wakeman, however, has been very much the opposite. That's all I am willing to say on this forum and in someone else's thread.

MidwestProwler
September 10, 2012, 12:14 AM
Now you got me curious with your experience with Mr Wakeman. How would it relate to Thompson Center Arms Co or CVA customer service or quality of firearms? As far as I know Mr Wakeman would just be a source of information or advertisement. I would also add if this is the case Savage would be the one he would do this for the most over many others. He always talks about the quality of the savage 10ML-II & we all know that gun would arguably be the best quality inline made to date. I have to disagree with you if you base the gun quality from T/C or customer service - quality of any product from any gun maker on your opinion of Mr Wakeman. I am still curious as to what bad experience you have had with him & the nature of how it would relate to the products customer service or quality of a said Co. Products that he may recommend - review like blackhorn 209 powder & many others? If this has some bearing on Quality of any said firearm please explain I always have a ear open & willing to listen-learn. knowledge is power in my book & if it saves me money or gets me something of higher quality then I'm all for it.:)

mykeal
September 10, 2012, 12:49 AM
What part of That's all I am willing to say on this forum and in someone else's thread.
don't you understand?

MidwestProwler
September 10, 2012, 01:06 AM
I understand fully I simply ask how it's would relate-contribute to the original question ask for information about black powder & a given muzzleloaders quality-accuracy. If you don't want answer my question no worries. I took it you was offering further explanation. Is there a thread or forum you could direct me to that may explain this further.:) If my questions or differing opinion has offended you I'm sorry :) Like others I'm always looking for more information about firearms & what or why people would recommend one over the other. I would also respectfully disagree with your opinion on CVA. My opinion of them is not very good for many reasons this being the most recent 2011 http://www.itcblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/thompson.swcomplaint.pdf no one likes a thief I sure don't. Does it make it a bad gun or show the kind of business - people your dealing with well that's up to the owners to decide. Looks like it's all about money to me not quality & customers but what do I care who's toes get stepped on. They have a history of things like this going back to a mass court ordered recall from around 1997ish. Looks like more then Ford vs Chevy to me but that's my opinion.

Elkins45
September 19, 2012, 06:52 PM
Additional Muzzleloading Restrictions\

A muzzleloading firearm is defined as a firearm that is incapable of being loaded from the breech end.

Only black powder or a "black powder substitute" such as Pyrodex may be used. Modern smokeless powders are an approved blackpowder substitute only in muzzleloading firearms that are specifically designed for their use.

Percussion caps (shotgun primers are legal), wheellock, matchlock or flint type ignition only may be used, except the Connecticut Valley Arms (CVA) electronic ignition shall be legal to use.

Given this info then the Savage 10ML-II is the only way to go IMHO. Better hurry and snatch one up if you can find it--Savage has ceased production. You can still find some new ones on the auction sites.

I love mine so much that I bought a spare when I found out they were being discontinued.

Crawdad1
September 20, 2012, 10:54 AM
If you want to shoot accurately at three hundred yards with a muzzleloader then you’ll have to go with a conical bullet. The Civil War replicas would be your best bet as they have the faster twist rates suitable for that type of long range shooting. Pedersoli makes some real nice civil war replica rifles.

Try here
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/blackpowder-rifles.html

frontiergander
December 1, 2012, 02:43 AM
midwest is a troll guys, hes now following my name to the forums i am registered on and preaching the Wakeman tales.

rodwha
December 1, 2012, 11:17 AM
"...I'd be unlikely to get a clear line of sight past 50 yards. But, that being said, I like a challenge, which is where the other requirement comes in."

I think part of the challenge and allure is patched round ball (PRB). It's good out to 75-125 yds. Past 75 yds you really need to understand how it's effected by the wind.

If you are hunting in thick stuff you may want a shorter barrel. If you are stalking and not sitting you may want a lighter rifle. I have been pushing for a rifle that fits these scenarios. For me a Lyman's .50 cal percussion Deerstalker fits the bill, though I also considered the Tradition's Deerhunter, and the Pedersoli Country Hunter. None are all that expensive and can be had in percussion or flint.

The Country Hunter has a faster twist better designed for conicals and saboted bullets. The stainless Deerstalker is more designed for sabots too, but with a slower twist (1:48").

Lunie
December 3, 2012, 02:13 AM
midwest is a troll guys, hes now following my name to the forums i am registered on and preaching the Wakeman tales.
I guess someone said "CVA" too many times.http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shill

And to the OP and others, my apologies for contributing to the pollution of this previously dormant thread.

Pancho
December 3, 2012, 12:40 PM
A late last word for Trent of the 300yds. Muzzleloading doesn't have to be enjoyed at 300yds. 50 to 150 yds is plenty challenging when muzzleloading. The added magic of being able to enjoy all of the benefits of reloading with the advantage of instant gratification more than makes up for lack of long range shooting and you don't have to walk so far to change your targets.

wap41
December 3, 2012, 03:15 PM
For a very accurate black powder hunting rifle I highly recommend an austin Halleck inline 50 cal.I have several and find them extremly accurate.They are made to shoot 150 grs of black powder and with a sabot the trajectory is quite flat.Mine zero'd at 100 yds will drop 3 to 4" at 200 yds.A year ago I shot my deer @235 yds and it dropped like a rock.

Trent
December 3, 2012, 04:31 PM
Thread isn't dormant, still haven't picked out a black powder rifle. I've been paying more attention at the range when I see people shooting them, asking questions. :)

Pancho
December 3, 2012, 06:30 PM
Trent, Glad you're taking careful thought.
Just a reminder, I got as much adrenalin thrill out of autocrossing on a parking lot as the big guys got racing formula 1 on the the great road race tracks of the world.

Trent
December 3, 2012, 11:35 PM
I used to get adrenaline road racing on the big tracks until Canada corner bit me at Road America during the Festival of Speed 2010. I was on a Gixxer 1000 built by Vesrah Motorsports, highsided and got hit by the bike behind me. Was ... nasty, and a little life altering.

I had plenty of adrenaline teaching my boy to stalk yesterday in the woods. We spotted four deer in a large field, watched them go in to the woods, then tracked them. My son and I got to within 15 feet of a large buck. (Was teaching him to walk quietly, he's a quick learner)

Every step was an adrenaline rush. We almost got "petting" close to the buck. :)

Pancho
December 4, 2012, 01:21 AM
Evidently your stalking skills precludes the need for a 300 yd. gun.
Can you imagine the adrenaline rush if you and your boy were armed with flintlock rifles?
Rack on the wall, meat in the freezer and stories to tell.

rodwha
December 4, 2012, 09:41 AM
"Can you imagine the adrenaline rush if you and your boy were armed with flintlock rifles?
Rack on the wall, meat in the freezer and stories to tell."

That's what I kind of thought when I saw him state "I like a challenge." When I became interested in a muzzleloader my first thoughts were pistol bullets in sabots, but after many questions, as well as stories and opinions, I'm more interested in patched round balls and conicals.

I think it would be a little more gratifying. Not to mention the looks and remarks from people in hunting camp/range. Plus it would be more involved in that it seems there is more to know to do well with it vs pistol bullets in sabots.

Trent
December 4, 2012, 02:05 PM
Evidently your stalking skills precludes the need for a 300 yd. gun.
Can you imagine the adrenaline rush if you and your boy were armed with flintlock rifles?
Rack on the wall, meat in the freezer and stories to tell.

My son doesn't like the idea of hunting. It's actually one of the few points of contention between us, he doesn't like that I hunt.. "You have enough money to buy food, why do you have to kill it?" He seems unwilling to accept the idea that the meat I put on the table all came from a living animal. Dunno. I can't figure teenagers out.

So, I'm trying to teach him the skills he needs without tipping him off on "why".. :)

I don't know much about hunting per se - in fact this is the first year I'll be hunting deer. I've successfully stalked and taken turkey before (not easy, those birds have superhuman senses), and I can move very quietly through the woods.

Compared to turkey, deer are .. well, kind of stupid critters. :)

Flintlock sounds like fun. :)

Pancho
December 4, 2012, 04:18 PM
living in Southwestern Ohio and loving the bush country of Canada and Alaska I know that there is a disconnect today with were protein comes from. Here in the midwest I could stand in a shopping mall and could ask people where an egg came from and most would not know it came from a chicken's butt.

mykeal
December 4, 2012, 05:48 PM
Trent - the issue isn't where the meat came from, its the purpose of hunting. Hunting, especially whitetail deer hunting is a critical part of responsible game management. In our settlement of wilderness lands we became prey to many natural predators that also served to keep deer populations under control. We eliminated those predators out of both fear and to eliminate the competition for resources. In doing so we found that we had to take their place in keeping their food sources from exploding in population. Talk to any state game management office about what the real role of hunters are. Better yet, volunteer to survey the herds in the spring and see first hand what devastation occurs due to overpopulation.

Michigan harvested some 400,000 deer so far this year. Assume half were does, and that those does would have produced two fawns next spring, and that half those fawns were does that produced two fawns apiece the next year while the first set were still producing. We'd be overrun with whitetails in less than 4 years. The habitat would be decimated in that time.

Hunting is necessary to meet our commitment to preserve our planet and it's resources. See what he thinks about that.

rodwha
December 4, 2012, 06:15 PM
"...why do you have to kill it?"

My mother was like that. She would tell me what I was doing was awful and that until the deer were armed as well it wasn't fair, nor right.

So I replied, "What chance did your hamburger get?"

I can understand people disliking the killing, gutting, etc. part, but don't hate me for it. I don't actually care for the gutting and skinning part, but I certainly love the taste of fresh meat that didn't get hormones pumped into it!

Pancho
December 4, 2012, 09:12 PM
The only thing that Mykeal left out was that a goodly number of those deer would be bumper hunted resulting in at the very least an insurance claim and at the most a human fatality. As a motorcyclist I truly dread an encounter with a deer.

frontiergander
December 4, 2012, 10:21 PM
haha true, Mr Hamburger was shot in the head a couple times with a tiny .22 to reduce damage. Deer and other wild game are not locked into a tiny little compartment and shot point blank.

Trent
December 5, 2012, 10:28 AM
The only thing that Mykeal left out was that a goodly number of those deer would be bumper hunted resulting in at the very least an insurance claim and at the most a human fatality. As a motorcyclist I truly dread an encounter with a deer.

Same here. I hit a deer in 2008 at 60mph in my 3/4 ton pickup truck. It shoved the right side of my frame back a full 8", destroyed my radiator, tranny radiator, fan, grill, battery compartment, fender, and a bunch of other stuff. Managed to straighten the frame (good enough) with a friend, scavenged parts from junk yards for most of the expensive stuff, still cost me almost 2K to fix. (Had liability only on the pickup truck, insurance wouldn't cover a dime). Fixed it up good enough I ended up selling the truck for slightly more than I'd purchased it for, 5 years prior.

I've had two close encounters on motorcycles - and know of a few who have had worse (including two who were critically injured by hitting a deer on a race track).

My son pays more attention to facebook than human face to face contact, so in a post I tagged him in a photo we took while standing a few feet away from a buck. On it I wrote this;


Trent: Trenton will probably never forget yesterday, will ya boy?
Monday at 7:19am

Trenton: There's not even the slightest chance of me forgetting.
Monday at 7:25am

Trent:

Good. Teach your boys or girls the same thing some day.

Hunting isn't about killing, son. Remember that. Sometimes hunting is about observing, but mostly, it's about putting in to context who we are.

In IL, today, hunting permits are issued to keep the population at a level which prevents starvation and promotes conservationism. Less than a hundred years ago those white-tails were hunted almost to the brink of extinction. Since then the herd in IL has recovered to about 800,000. Each year around 200,000 deer are harvested; this is required to sustain a manageable level so they don't overpopulate. Deer have no natural predators left, since the wolves and cougars were hunted to the brink of extinction and did NOT recover in this state.


Hopefully it'll make my boy think a little.

:)

rodwha
December 5, 2012, 12:45 PM
Great post! Good view on it.

For me hunting isn't really even about hunting. I don't mind sitting all weekend and not taking home a thing except a much relaxed mind and the enjoyment I got out of seeing the wildlife. Drinking a little beer after dinner with the fellas is a nice bonus too.

I'm curious as to whether or not you are looking into a hunting rifle and a target rifle or one that can handle both.

What will your hunting entail? Lots of thick brush with relatively short shooting lanes? Will you be stalking or sitting in a blind?

What has interested you so far as far as rifle, powder type (black powder or a substitute), and projectile?

OrangePwrx9
December 5, 2012, 11:38 PM
Trent,
I started 15 years ago with a TC inline with a removeable breech plug. It was the closest thing to the cartridge guns I grew up with. That, plus my experience with TC Contender handguns had proved to me that TC was a good company to deal with.

The inline was a good choice and I still have it. However, I enjoy sidelock percussion rifles a bit more and that's what I use most often. The inline was good in that it allowed a progression from what I knew to what I was learning. As I slowly got my act together, the traditional sidelock made a lot more sense.

For you, I'd recommend starting with a TC Encore 209x50, if that's within your budget, for the following reasons:
1)It'll be close to what you know;
2)the removeable breechplug will allow you to easily clear many of a beginner's common mistakes;
3)it'll be as accurate as any production muzzleloader;
4)it'll be strong enough for magnum loads (and let you learn they're really not necessary);
5)it'll be easy to clean (doubly so if you opt for stainless).
6)its ignition will be as reliable as any smokepole made (probably moreso)
7)it'll give you the flexibility of converting to a modern centerfire cartridge rifle by the expedient of purchasing an extra barrel (or you could go the centerfire handgun route).

Since the Encore 209x50 has a fast twist and is designed for conicals & sabots, your full power loads, at least initially will either be lead conicals, saboted pistol bullets, or Power Belt conicals. Roundball will work in an Encore, but the fast twist and shallow rifling (positives for conicals) will likely cause extra work on your part to find an accurate full-power RB load.

However, roundball loads will be quite accurate and enjoyable in the fast-twist Encore at reduced loads for plinking, target practice and varmits.

I've tried a variety of lead conicals and sabots in fast, slow, and medium twist barrels from TC and Lyman/Investarms. Most gave mixed results; sometimes good, sometimes bad. Worst thing was the same load would shoot well in a given rifle one day, and poorly a few days later.

The one conical that's delivered reliable day-to-day accuracy in every barrel I've tried (assuming reasonable full-power loads) is the Power Belt. It even shoots well in slow-twist roundball barrels if the bullet weight (and therefore, length) is kept down. I've found the 295 gr. Power Belts (in both .50 and .54) to be all the bullet a whitetail deer needs. Consequently, the lead conicals and sabots I've accumulated over the years are excess baggage and destined to be melted down or sold on ebay.

A word or two about loads and powder (then I'll shut up). Loose Pyrodex RS is perfectly fine. It's all I use for full power loads anymore. It's corrosive, but easy to clean up after. More importantly, it's readily available. The 209 primer you'll use on the Encore won't have any problem igniting it. Heck, I have no problems using little #11 caps on sidelocks. Don't be misled by all the hooey about holy black. It's nice but not necessary. I haven't tried 777 and the other substitutes, but they each seem to have drawbacks of their own.

Pyrodex P is a good choice for reduced loads when you're shooting roundballs. My favorite plinking load uses only 30 grains of Pyro P behind a .50 patched roundball. That load will shoot accurately all afternoon in a TC with no need to swab the barrel.

I've tried Pyrodex pellets, but don't use them anymore. They seem to foul more, kick harder, deliver inconsistent accuracy, and are harder to clean up after. Some sources say they give much better ballistics; other sources indicate there's little difference. Two things for sure; they're less flexible than loose powder and more expensive.

For full power loads on deer, I typically shoot a 295 gr. Power Belt over 80 to 90 grains of Pyrodex RS. Any more than 100 grains and accuracy evaporates from shot-to-shot unless you swab the barrel after every shot. With 80 to 90 grains of RS, I can often shoot decent 6 or 7 shot groups from an initially clean barrel WITHOUT ANY shot-to-shot swabbing.

Hope this helps and isn't redundant. Haven't read the entire thread as it seemed to degenerate into the kind of bickering I've heard before.

Pancho
December 6, 2012, 01:27 AM
Trent, getting back to your original question.
Although I am mostly a traditionalist I do have 2 inlines that I enjoy shooting and I'm not opposed to new ideas (check out the new Redemption muzzleloader) my greatest joy is solving the mystery of what each of my muzzleloaders prefer to be it's most accurate.
I don't have the patience for bench loading and I like instant gratification.
Muzzleloading provides me that, I am able to, in effect, bench load at the range or in my back yard.
Let's face it, if shooting cloverleafs at 300 yds. is your benchmark, maybe muzzleloading is not for you, after all, it is known that BP and the subs are inferior to modern smokeless powders and we are launching 50 cal. solid lead rounds with less than 100 grs of powder.
Lastly, I don't know where you hunt but you should consider your effective hunting range. You might get 200 yd. shots out in the plain states but here in SW Ohio because of underbrush 75 yds is about the best you can expect.

Trent
December 6, 2012, 10:49 AM
Although I am mostly a traditionalist I do have 2 inlines that I enjoy shooting and I'm not opposed to new ideas (check out the new Redemption muzzleloader) my greatest joy is solving the mystery of what each of my muzzleloaders prefer to be it's most accurate.
I don't have the patience for bench loading and I like instant gratification.
Muzzleloading provides me that, I am able to, in effect, bench load at the range or in my back yard.
Let's face it, if shooting cloverleafs at 300 yds. is your benchmark, maybe muzzleloading is not for you, after all, it is known that BP and the subs are inferior to modern smokeless powders and we are launching 50 cal. solid lead rounds with less than 100 grs of powder.
Lastly, I don't know where you hunt but you should consider your effective hunting range. You might get 200 yd. shots out in the plain states but here in SW Ohio because of underbrush 75 yds is about the best you can expect.


I'm leery about hunting on public land around here (and don't fully understand the process for it - IDNR's website is not straightforward or easy to follow); so this year I'm making due hunting in my back yard with archery gear. Can't use firearms out back due to IDNR limitations of 300 yards from inhabited buildings, but I can use archery gear as it only has a 100 yard limitation and I don't have to ask permission from anyone. :)

This being said, deer around here tend to stick to the edge of fields and the timber, so I don't see long shots really being necessary if I'm set up right.

I've found over the years that on rifles, I really prefer wood stocks over synthetics, which tend to make a firearm front heavy. Overall (especially if hiking to a spot) I'd prefer a rifle that's balanced and not overly front heavy.

Aside from that I'm not too picky. Don't really need modern optics; scopes are nice for bench shooting, but I've never had a problem putting lead on target with iron sights.


Hope this helps and isn't redundant. Haven't read the entire thread as it seemed to degenerate into the kind of bickering I've heard before.


Very good information there, appreciate the time you took to put it up. I'm still on the fence about what to get. I'm really starting to lean towards a traditional rifle of some kind, though. I have enough "modern" guns (too many, in fact).


What will your hunting entail? Lots of thick brush with relatively short shooting lanes? Will you be stalking or sitting in a blind?

What has interested you so far as far as rifle, powder type (black powder or a substitute), and projectile?


I will tell you one piece caught my eye recently, guy at the range was shooting a muzzleloader that turned my head. Not sure WHAT it was, but I know it made a really loud boom, set off a huge cloud of smoke, and shot a (I believe) 75 cal projectile. The projectiles he was sending out that thing were enormous; I asked him how much they weigh and he said "I dunno, but they come 12 to a pound".

He wasn't getting much in the way of accuracy with it (even at 50 yards he was all over the place), but it sure looked fun. :)

Last time I was at the range I also saw a guy shooting a Savage smokeless muzzleloader - and he was hitting respectable groups at 300 yards. (At 100 he was making a big ragged hole). I didn't even know they MADE smokeless muzzleloaders.

Something about that one didn't sit well with me. It was a neat piece of engineering, and interesting because I'd never seen one before, sure, but not really "my cup o tea".

Nah, the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards a traditional rifle. Something I can hang on the wall and appreciate when I'm not out trying to put food on the table with it.

rodwha
December 6, 2012, 11:18 AM
12 to a pound would be ~583 grains.

Maybe a Lyman's Trade Rifle would be your thing. It comes in .50 or .54 cal and percussion or flint.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders/trade-rifle.php

If a cross between modern and traditional styling is OK (It's what I'm hoping to get for Xmas as a good stalking rifle) maybe a Lyman's Deerstalker would do you well.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders/deerstalker-rifle.php

They can be found for $100 less than Lyman shows them for.

Money is a bit of an object for me. I'd like a "better" gun, but these, from what I've researched come highly recommended. They are considered by many to be extremely good for the cost.

I'd be too worried about taking a $1000 rifle into the woods anyway!

Trent
December 8, 2012, 04:55 PM
I really like that first one! That brass metalwork really sets it off. :)

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