Bulk ammo and the ATF


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Sky
September 3, 2012, 02:25 PM
I went to my favorite range today to sight in my AK-47 7.62x39 clone with another red dot. While there a discussion transpired about bulk ammo sales and a visit from ATF. In the last month 2 customers who ordered bulk ammo got a visit by ATF within 2 hours of delivery. The ATF said, "You received a UPS shipment of ammo and we want to see the gun it is for". Both customers complied. Also when you get the visit you are placed on a watch list in the event any crime is committed in your local area by the caliber they have you now listed for; they can request to do a ballistic test on your weapon.

This is not Tin Foil and the range owner later confirmed what had been said. This is actually a low crime area so no one we know of has had their weapon tested or asked for, as of yet.


I live in a border state whereby in a couple of directions you are at the Mexican Boarder.

I assume this is to stop someone from buying ammo for someone else or the result of the last crazy who purchased ammo on line?

Has anyone else been told or experienced this to be true?

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GBExpat
September 3, 2012, 02:32 PM
First I have heard of that but I am not surprised, considering the amount drug-related gun violence that is occurring in Mexico.

I am in northern Virginia ... but we also have a LOT(!) of Mexicans nearby. :D

[/silly]

AlexanderA
September 3, 2012, 02:34 PM
Are you saying that you personally talked to the two individuals who were allegedly visited by the ATF? Or was this a third-hand report?

This is how Internet rumors get started.

Sky
September 3, 2012, 02:40 PM
No the guys came in separately last month and relayed their stories to the counter help and the owner. The owner confirmed the story to me. So call it whatever; but the owner has never lied to me that I am aware of.

It could be a local procedure but I doubt it.

bigfatdave
September 3, 2012, 02:48 PM
The ATF said, "You received a UPS shipment of ammo and we want to see the gun it is for". Both customersthe correct ending for that sentence is "politely declined and closed the door"

Midwest
September 3, 2012, 02:54 PM
I am guessing here that maybe, if the story is true. Perhaps it has something to do with the border states where the ATF requires notification for single purchase of multiple long gun sales. Maybe this now applies to bulk ammo...again..just a guess.

If that is the case, this is the first time I have seen any mention of 'reporting' of bulk ammo sales anywhere.

Ramone
September 3, 2012, 02:56 PM
Define "bulk"?

are we talking 1000 round boxes?

A pallet load?

Pallets?

Sam1911
September 3, 2012, 03:00 PM
the correct ending for that sentence is "politely declined and closed the door"


Amen.

Of course, with the greatest of respect for the OP's LGS, this is now 4th hand info and ... well ...

Sky
September 3, 2012, 03:02 PM
I asked about the amount of ammo purchased also. One had purchased 1000 rounds..My next question was, "What about 500 will that get you a visit"? The exact amount is unknown only that both got the visit.

Hummm, I probably could weasel the numbers for the guys from the owner but I would not do that for I do not personally know the individuals. Also liable to cause a stink for the owner giving out that kind of info.

We have guys on this forum who do bulk purchases and hopefully someone will chime in with their own experiences. Border states are a tad bit different than other states as far as reporting purchases of weapons.

I am wondering if it is a local area thing or the gears have shifted and it will become the norm? It is evident that UPS is having to report the delivery if all this is true.

Sam1911
September 3, 2012, 03:08 PM
It is evident that UPS is having to report the delivery if all this is true.
That should be easy enough to find out.

AK103K
September 3, 2012, 03:08 PM
1000 rounds isnt a lot of ammo. I seriously doubt the ATF has the manpower to follow every case that gets delivered.

Sounds like tin foil stuff to me.

jhop73
September 3, 2012, 03:08 PM
does the range you were shooting at sell ammo?

Sky
September 3, 2012, 03:09 PM
the correct ending for that sentence is "politely declined and closed the door"

Amen.

Of course, with the greatest of respect for the OP's LGS, this is now 4th hand info and ... well ...

Hopefully someone else will chime in and let us know if they have experienced the same thing within the last month..

BSA1
September 3, 2012, 03:10 PM
If they brought their ammo at a LGS why did the owner rat them out???

Sky
September 3, 2012, 03:14 PM
does the range you were shooting at sell ammo?

Yes he sells ammo. But not in bulk or by the can.

If they brought their ammo at a LGS why did the owner rat them out

These were on line Internet orders delivered by UPS.

JERRY
September 3, 2012, 03:18 PM
were they looking for some of obama's and holder's guns?

Sky
September 3, 2012, 03:33 PM
Guys I know this is far out there and some will not be pleased if "all is true". But at this stage for this area I would give odds that this happened exactly as explained. I can see the 'benefit and the curse' it just depends on what side of the counter you are on. It is mostly a form of intimidation IMO; again if all true.

Old Fuff
September 3, 2012, 03:33 PM
Those who live elsewhere should understand that the states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and the southern part of California have been singled out by the Justice Department and Department of Homeland Security to receive extraordinary levels of surveillance as they make a desperate attempt to find evidence to support the Administrationís contention that rouge gun dealers and some individuals are supplying military-style guns and ammunition to Mexican drug cartels.

So far harassing federally licensed retail dealers has not been particularly productive, with relatively few arrests if you consider the size of the effort and the amount of manpower assigned to it.

So I would not be surprised if they were tracking what they see as large shipments of ammunition consisting of rounds that fit popular black rifles and pistols that can have large capacity ammunition feeding devices. :rolleyes:

This is not to say the above reports are true or not, but rather that they do not come as a surprise to us that live in Mexican border country.

hso
September 3, 2012, 03:39 PM
Hasn't happened to me.

Perhaps it is just a Texas thang.

Sky
September 3, 2012, 03:43 PM
It certainly is not my intention to start an unsubstantiated rumor; other than he said she said that is all I got. Hopefully someone on a boarder state who has done a bulk order lately can pass on their experience. I should do one myself just for grins but I do not need half the stuff I have already.

dragon813gt
September 3, 2012, 03:46 PM
So do they have a legal right to do this type of thing? I'm leaning towards that without a search warrant they would not be entering my home. This could possibly end up costing me in the long run. But unwarranted searches are not something I will give into.

And how did they know about the orders? They must have had the tracking numbers to know that the packages were recently delivered. 1k rounds is not a large order.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

firesky101
September 3, 2012, 04:03 PM
I live in one of those report multiple sales areas. Just got 6000+ rounds delivered last month, no visits yet. It was 7.62x54, .38, 7.62x39, and 5.56.

Sky
September 3, 2012, 04:09 PM
I live in one of those report multiple sales areas. Just got 6000+ rounds delivered last month, no visits yet. It was 7.62x54, .38, 7.62x39, and 5.56

I am really glad to hear that!! So it must be a local fiefdom kinda thing?

Old Fuff
September 3, 2012, 04:17 PM
Hasn't happened to me.

If Tennessee is now on the U.S./Mexican border I am in serious trouble... :uhoh: :eek:

OARNGESI
September 3, 2012, 04:25 PM
if you guys want you can send me money and ill test this out, then report back.

firesky101
September 3, 2012, 04:35 PM
Hmm... learn a new word everyday. I had to look that one up. Yeah not sure, I don't think I live too near the border, but my LGS said he is supposed to report multiple rifle purchases. Funny enough the door bell ring while I was reading this thread, no one ever comes to my house. It was somebody looking for the old owners (I think she must have just got out of jail as we have owned this for 3 years). Still I was like no freaking way when the doorbell ring I was expecting ATF.

Texan Scott
September 3, 2012, 04:37 PM
IF this is true, A) my money's on the carrier rather than the retailer as the rat; B) I'd expect pushback from the TX governor and attorney general SOON (TX sues for fed injunction a LOT); and C) I have an inlaw who'll be getting unwelcome attention soon... for perfectly legal activities that "worry" the ATF and their leash holders. I have concerns about the BATFE. They exist for legitimate law enforcement purposes. They have the potential to be abused as a domestic intelligence agency. I do not like the idea that the government is watching the citizenry with distrust... smacks of 1984.

Al Thompson
September 3, 2012, 04:48 PM
Considering that something like this happened to a guy who ordered about 50 cases of ammo last year, I'm not surprised. In his case, it was a business card from a local FBI agent.

Bet if we could use a crystal ball, it's a delivery driver making the phone call to the Feds.

Sky
September 3, 2012, 04:56 PM
Bet if we could use a crystal ball, it's a delivery driver making the phone call to the Feds.

Al my UPS delivery guy is almost a friend and I plan on asking him "IF" I can catch him. I really think (with nothing but a hunch) the reporting comes much further up the food chain than the driver. But I will make an effort to ask for sure.

Sky
September 3, 2012, 05:11 PM
Also thanks for not shooting the messenger on this; just reporting on what I was told. I did call the LGS and ask him if he could call one of the individuals and ask them to call me; so we will see.

I am going to order ammo tomorrow even though I don't need any. If and when I get a knock I will try to find out their reasons and thoughts. Wonder if I order multiple calibers if they will know what calibers were ordered. That will answer partly who is doing the reporting IMO.

OilyPablo
September 3, 2012, 05:12 PM
I read the business card story before.

I'll talk to my UPS guy, but people buy 1000 rounds with some level of frequency. Obama can't be that stupid.

Walkalong
September 3, 2012, 05:42 PM
I seriously doubt the ATF has the manpower to follow every case that gets delivered.
Me either. We need some substantiated replies.

The possibility that the UPS driver called someone could be right, but why would they tell him anything but... so what, ammo deliveries happen all the time.

Perhaps they are just keeping a close eye on ammo deliveries close to the border.

Sam1911
September 3, 2012, 05:42 PM
Hmmm...one way to try and check on this would be to send an email to AIM or someone like that who sells (maybe most of!) their ammo in quantities of 1,000-2,000+ rounds, and see if they've heard anything. I'd definitely expect them to spill the beans if they know about it.

TIMC
September 3, 2012, 05:43 PM
I hope I never have this happen because I may make some powerful enemies when I tell them to go pound sand!

Birch Knoll
September 3, 2012, 05:47 PM
This is not Tin Foil and the range owner later confirmed what had been said.

That is so tinfoil, until and unless we have names, dates and places that can be confirmed.

AK103K
September 3, 2012, 05:52 PM
.....and the range owner later confirmed what had been said.
Right....., so dont buy your ammo by the case online, where thy will come to your house, buy it by the box from the shop owner, and let him take the risks for you. :)

SharpsDressedMan
September 3, 2012, 05:54 PM
Maybe we need discreet packaging for ammo now, like the Penthouse and Playboy used to come in, or maybe pack it in coffee grounds.............................:D

Sky
September 3, 2012, 06:09 PM
Hmmm...one way to try and check on this would be to send an email to AIM or someone like that who sells (maybe most of!) their ammo in quantities of 1,000-2,000+ rounds, and see if they've heard anything. I'd definitely expect them to spill the beans if they know about it.

Sam I called an hour ago but got no answer at Centerfire systems. I will call Aim and Centerfire tomorrow; someone will be back from holiday.

Sam1911
September 3, 2012, 06:31 PM
Good man! Thanks!

zxcvbob
September 3, 2012, 06:37 PM
UPS guy doesn't know how much ammo nor what caliber, the box just says, ORM-D Ammunition for Small Arms. The package could contain 50 rounds of .22LR and 30 pounds of hunting socks and it would have that sticker.

I bought 50 pounds of small pistol primers once. (group buy for my bullseye league) The Fedex guy dropped them off *late* in the day, I think it was about 6:00. I told him I thought he'd be in more of a hurry to get a big box of high explosives off his truck. He didn't have a clue what it was.

7.62 Nato
September 3, 2012, 08:01 PM
NO ticky, NO lookey !

Certaindeaf
September 3, 2012, 08:27 PM
Sounds like a cinderella story. Let's see them feets, sister! yer going to jail!

bigfatdave
September 3, 2012, 08:34 PM
My barber says I need a haircut (he's right at the moment, but that's not the point)
The local ammo shop says I shouldn't order online to get ammo in bulk, the feds might harass me about it

Seriously, without a substantiated or first-person account, this is more likely to be a myth generated to either:
1 - sell more ammo over the counter (seriously, the SHOP doesn't order ammo in bulk?)
2 - make the BATFEIEIO look more intimidating
3 - pass the boring hours in a gun shop

There is no way to tell what's in a box, other than a single round of ammunition requiring an ORM-D sticker/label. The CMP sells pallets of ammo to regular folks, match shooters order mass quantities, clubs get together and make group buys ... hell, I've split an order with someone, and I'm just some random guy living a stone's throw from the border with Canadia.

If F-troop comes to your door asking about the ammo, ask to see a warrant and get names from all the clowns trying to intimidate you, then politely close the door.
But they won't, the manpower isn't there and the organization it would take to gather that info AND act on it doesn't exist, these are the dregs of the fedgov we're talking about, they can barely sell guns to criminals on time or under budget, they aren't investigating your bulk ammo purchase, and if they were they'd screw it up somehow.

And for some related pictures:
http://www.centerfireguns.com/images/detailed/rimfire-ammunition-winchester-22lr555hp-22lr-36-cphpcase5550rd.jpg
http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/640145806/9096124/24fd373a81fdb1a2600b72cf9b7de8e6.jpg

A related link:
http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/ammo.htm
Look at the CMP sale site there
They recently sold out of AP 30.'06 ammo
They sell .223 by the case (I got a discount diring the national matches, even! 30carbine, too!)
They're selling "Aguila .22LR Caliber Target - 1200 fps - 5000 Round Case" for $305 +S&H (I know a guy who orders a couple of these for a youth rifle team every year)

Twmaster
September 3, 2012, 08:39 PM
I wonder if this might be something for one of the gun rights writers to look into?

Certaindeaf
September 3, 2012, 08:48 PM
Last year in Norway around Christmas time they had a butter shortage. You know them Norwegians. They busted a whole bunch of them.. deservedly so?

OilyPablo
September 3, 2012, 08:48 PM
Cripes, the press animal freaks out when the possibility exists that someone, somewhere - might, just maybe, own 100 rounds. No need to feed the beast.

Al Thompson
September 3, 2012, 08:53 PM
Straight from the horse's mouth:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/5358

Certaindeaf
September 3, 2012, 08:57 PM
^
Sounds like someone doesn't like to lift weights, though that's their job.

Walkalong
September 3, 2012, 09:00 PM
I guess the FedEx & UPS drivers haven't turned me in. More components than ammo, but still. Perhaps they are shooters too. :)

hAkron
September 3, 2012, 09:03 PM
I had my mailman inquire about a heavy flat rate box.

The conversation went something like this:

"what's in here, lead?"

"sure is" I said. "I'm casting bullets!"

His response was "I have a .380, if you ever make any .380 bullets, hook me up!"

A year later he asked if I had any bullets for him yet. My Mailman is pretty cool.

Certaindeaf
September 3, 2012, 09:06 PM
I guess a thousand rounds or so is like a million dollars. I heard that if you cash out a million dollars out of your bank account or something, the man will do all like that same same/make a shadow? If only we had a company store!

sgtstryker
September 3, 2012, 09:22 PM
Well, I have received ammo in marked cases, just as was shipped to the dealer. So, easy to tell what it is. Our UPS drivers are great, sometimes kidding about another case of gold comin' in. Now, I would be more aware of Fedex drivers,but, this thread mentions UPS. Also, I remember when the USPS crunch made news, the Postmaster actually said maybe mail carriers could be the eyes and ears for other agencies. Maybe everyone is watching.. One friend won't order at all, we usually split cases, so, maybe he's not as paranoid as I thought. I only wish Ga Arms could keep up...


.

SilentStalker
September 3, 2012, 09:51 PM
I have received cases of ammo that was not marked at all. It came from an online source and it was just a regular brown cardboard box, nothing special. Are they required to place something on it designating what it is? The second time around it was in the same box but marked, and it seems to alternate back and forth. Hmmmm...this is interesting. It sounds a lot like the guy that posted on here that he had a visit from the FBI not long ago where they gave him a slip of paper and talked to him about the suspicious activity terrorist thing. Maybe they are spending that much manpower on checking out the little things. I don't see how they could keep track of it all but at least they are doing something I guess.

Trent
September 3, 2012, 10:39 PM
Umm.. I have ordered 18,500 rounds in the last month from AIM. (Last order was for 20 cases of 7.62x54R)

Should I be expecting a visit soon??? :)

Certaindeaf
September 3, 2012, 11:37 PM
Umm.. I have ordered 18,500 rounds in the last month from AIM. (Last order was for 20 cases of 7.62x54R)

Should I be expecting a visit soon??? :)
Since you're up in whoknowswheresville, make ready?!

Double Naught Spy
September 4, 2012, 03:04 AM
I went to my favorite range today to sight in my AK-47 7.62x39 clone with another red dot. While there a discussion transpired about bulk ammo sales and a visit from ATF. In the last month 2 customers who ordered bulk ammo got a visit by ATF within 2 hours of delivery. The ATF said, "You received a UPS shipment of ammo and we want to see the gun it is for". Both customers complied. Also when you get the visit you are placed on a watch list in the event any crime is committed in your local area by the caliber they have you now listed for; they can request to do a ballistic test on your weapon.

This is not Tin Foil and the range owner later confirmed what had been said.

Yeah, tin foil hat material, definitely.

I like how the customers got visits from the ATF within 2 hours of delivery, as if the ATF's big brother system has hacked the UPS delivery system.

If there were two customers who got visits from the ATF, they were already on a watch list. Ordering bulk ammo doesn't put you on a watch list.

The ATF, police, your next door neighbor, or your mom can ask to test your gun. So what? They can ask just about anything. That doesn't mean you have to comply.

2DREZQ
September 4, 2012, 03:16 AM
I live near the border. I never worry about bulk ammo orders getting me noticed. I guess BATFE just doesn't care what those darn Canadians are up to!:)

Davek1977
September 4, 2012, 03:23 AM
they can request to do a ballistic test on your weapon.


THE BATFE may ask to borrow my wife for a night too, but I'm under absolutely no obligation to grant that request. While the "get a lawyer and shut up" advice is given frequently on this board, its prudent advice to follow here. There are NO laws regarding the amount of ammo one can store in most jurisdictions, no requirement that one buys only ammo they have a weapon chambered in, etc. *IF* it is happening, its a fishing expedition, and nothing more. Tip or not, one's fourth amendment rights aren't nullified by the ATF's curiosity. There's no reason to comply with the BATFE if they do not have a warrant and you have broken no laws, no should you be compelled to provde them with any information that may be used against you at any point in the future.

rhinoh
September 4, 2012, 04:10 AM
UPS guy doesn't know how much ammo nor what caliber, the box just says, ORM-D Ammunition for Small Arms.

Not always. The 500 rounds I got in recently was in the manufacturers box, very obvious what it was and what caliber etc.

Midwest
September 4, 2012, 05:06 AM
Straight from the horse's mouth:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/5358

That story is almost year old. So this is not a new thing? This is the first I heard of it.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/5358

YJCMTSU Part II

23-Sep-11 – 18:30 by ToddG

evan price
September 4, 2012, 06:17 AM
This:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_c4Vy4LpdkPc/SfyUvdaWjEI/AAAAAAAAAGk/schtcvhun7M/s400/come%2Bback%2Bwith%2Ba%2Bwarrant.jpg

Sky
September 4, 2012, 06:53 AM
We are thinking it is a particular driver who believes wholeheartedly in see something say something.

I am going to order ammo today even though I don't need any.

Will follow up on trying to get one of the guys to call me that it supposedly happened to.

Al thanks for the link on the http://pistol-training.com/archives/5358

OldMac
September 4, 2012, 07:13 AM
Maybe it is a driver that is tired of paying for his chiropractor visits.

sansone
September 4, 2012, 07:46 AM
during the last "surprise" visit from the ATF (storefront) they were very interested in one internet sale to the texas/mexican border. The paperwork was all in order, dealer to dealer transfer, but they made phone calls (2) to the ATF field office in that location (texas).
I am convinced the mexican border troubles are creating extra field work for these fellas and maybe "fast & furious" caused ripples of investigations
(only guessing)

Jeff H
September 4, 2012, 07:48 AM
Just received 3 cans of ammo from the CMP and no visit from the ATF.

michaelbsc
September 4, 2012, 08:12 AM
This:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_c4Vy4LpdkPc/SfyUvdaWjEI/AAAAAAAAAGk/schtcvhun7M/s400/come%2Bback%2Bwith%2Ba%2Bwarrant.jpg

I've posted this before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sky
September 4, 2012, 08:31 AM
during the last "surprise" visit from the ATF (storefront) they were very interested in one internet sale to the texas/mexican border. The paperwork was all in order, dealer to dealer transfer, but they made phone calls (2) to the ATF field office in that location (texas).
I am convinced the mexican border troubles are creating extra field work for these fellas and maybe "fast & furious" caused ripples of investigations
(only guessing)

I was told that ICE, BTAF, and the Border Patrol in our area with all the LGSs have gotten more particular (to put it nicely). But I do not have the particulars.

On a lighter note I have to go through a Border Patrol check point (yes inside the USA) and verify I am a U.S. citizen when returning form the range; the guys are always professional and at times want to see (fondle) what I was shooting depending on traffic and heat of the day.

We will see what happens when I order the ammo and it is delivered. Order today and should have it in 5 days or so.

bigfatdave
September 4, 2012, 08:50 AM
the guys are always professional and at times want to see (fondle) what I was shooting depending on traffic and heat of the daydon't encourage that

Double Naught Spy
September 4, 2012, 08:52 AM
I was told that ICE, BTAF, and the Boarder Patrol in our area with all the LGSs have gotten more particular (to put it nicely).

Same source? FYI, ICE, BATF, and the Border Patrol are ALWAYS here in Texas. ICE doesn't regulate LGSs. The BATF is always particular with their inspections of FFLs.

And yeah, I live in Texas. I do bulk ammo orders. I shoot bulk ammo. I help the UPS driver unload the truck for me. Cops never visit me.

Sky
September 4, 2012, 09:14 AM
And yeah, I live in Texas. I do bulk ammo orders. I shoot bulk ammo. I help the UPS driver unload the truck for me. Cops never visit me.

Same here; as indicated it appears it might have been a driver. I want to find out if both guys are on the same drivers route.

elrowe
September 4, 2012, 09:23 AM
Hasn't happened to me.

If Tennessee is now on the U.S./Mexican border I am in serious trouble... :uhoh: :eek:
Happened a few weeks ago in "the big giveback". It'll be officially announced at this week's convention.

98C5
September 4, 2012, 09:31 AM
This happened to a member on a Vette forum I am on. The Sheriff took his ammo(3000rds I think). He had to go to the station to pick it up. I will locate the original thread if permitted to.

The Sheriff said his neighbor called the cops because he thought it would get stolen. BS if I ever heard.

mgkdrgn
September 4, 2012, 09:37 AM
I guess a thousand rounds or so is like a million dollars. I heard that if you cash out a million dollars out of your bank account or something, the man will do all like that same same/make a shadow? If only we had a company store!
Actually, the amount is $10,000 ... deposit or withdrawl, the bank is required to report.

Old Fuff
September 4, 2012, 09:50 AM
Happened a few weeks ago in "the big giveback". It'll be officially announced at this week's convention.

They are so bright!!! Think of the money the government will save on not having to build fences... :cool:

Wait a minute!! What am I saying??? :what:

Sky
September 4, 2012, 09:56 AM
Called Centerfire systems to confirm they do not have any 556 SP or 7.62x39 in any weight soft point. Sold out.

Called AIM and same story. Both calls made at 0845ish

I use the soft point for hunting feral pigs.

Sam1911
September 4, 2012, 10:07 AM
Ok...what did they say about reporting sales over 1,000 rds. to the BATFE or FBI or whomever?

Sky
September 4, 2012, 10:32 AM
Ok...what did they say about reporting sales over 1,000 rds. to the BATFE or FBI or whomever

Sam they said absolutely not! Shipping over 100,000 rounds a month it would be pretty near impossible. However at Centerfire systems he did say all the ammo packages/boxed shipped are clearly marked. Also they had not heard of any visits from ATF to their customers.

pockets
September 4, 2012, 11:02 AM
So 4 pages into this, we're back to 'someone told someone who told me'.

BTW- In all of the years I worked in Mexico, I never heard of the 'Boarder Patrol'. Do they keep tabs on rooming house guests? ;)
.

Double Naught Spy
September 4, 2012, 12:15 PM
So 4 pages into this, we're back to 'someone told someone who told me'.

Right!

Same here; as indicated it appears it might have been a driver. I want to find out if both guys are on the same drivers route.

Until you have some real information and not just stories, what does it matter?

So these customers consumners supposedly visited by the ATF are now on watch lists? How do you know?

Gun store/range rumors abound. After all, Colt isn't selling to the public anymore, Walmart ammo is made to 'expire' after 1 year or 2 (depending on the source), Obama is going to stop sales of assault rifles (buy now before the government puts a halt to it!), etc.

Always wear your tin foil hat when gossiping at the gun store/range.

Sky
September 4, 2012, 12:50 PM
Until you have some real information and not just stories, what does it matter?

So these customers consumers supposedly visited by the ATF are now on watch lists? How do you know?

Gun store/range rumors abound. After all, Colt isn't selling to the public anymore, Walmart ammo is made to 'expire' after 1 year or 2 (depending on the source), Obama is going to stop sales of assault rifles (buy now before the government puts a halt to it!), etc.

Always wear your tin foil hat when gossiping at the gun store/range.

I have known the owner of the LGS for a few years. We have hunted together, had family dinners together, and has always been straight with me.

Now, if you had someone who is a friend and told you what had been happening at his business would you believe him or just call it tin foil?

The question was asked "if" anyone had heard of such a thing or had it happened to anyone else.

There are always those who want to cry tin foil when they hear something out of their normal day to day experience. Also there are certain individuals who get a kick out of trying to show their superiority by degrading others.

There is no reason IMO for the two customers to relay a story like this unless, what? Many still believe around here that your word is your bond so I really have a hard time believing two guys on two separate occasions came in telling the same story unless there was an orchestrated conspiracy for what reason.

Al is the only one who provided a thread where something like this happened before.

Once again the question was has anyone heard of this before? The few guys I have been able to speak with around here have all thought it was a driver with a "see something say something" attitude.

I will find out what I can as soon as I can; just because I want to know what went down and why.
I am still trying to speak with one of the customers.

crazyjennyblack
September 4, 2012, 01:11 PM
I'm with you, Sky. Most definitely not tinfoil. You got the info from your friend, who got it IN PERSON from his customers. That's only second-hand information, which is good enough for me because this stuff is also in the news.

There are plenty of news stories out there that we don't need to rehash about the government making unwritten rules and illegal moves in the border states. If I lived down there (glad I don't) I would simply not mail-order my ammo, and buy in-person, cash only. Problem solved, until the people who are doing this get sent to jail. Never underestimate the reach of corruption or its effects on people.

Warp
September 4, 2012, 02:33 PM
I went to my favorite range today to sight in my AK-47 7.62x39 clone with another red dot. While there a discussion transpired about bulk ammo sales and a visit from ATF. In the last month 2 customers who ordered bulk ammo got a visit by ATF within 2 hours of delivery. The ATF said, "You received a UPS shipment of ammo and we want to see the gun it is for". Both customers complied. Also when you get the visit you are placed on a watch list in the event any crime is committed in your local area by the caliber they have you now listed for; they can request to do a ballistic test on your weapon.

This is not Tin Foil and the range owner later confirmed what had been said. This is actually a low crime area so no one we know of has had their weapon tested or asked for, as of yet.


I live in a boarder state whereby in a couple of directions you are at the Mexican Boarder.

I assume this is to stop someone from buying ammo for someone else or the result of the last crazy who purchased ammo on line?

Has anyone else been told or experienced this to be true?


"No" *closes door* (door wouldn't even be open enough to walk through and would be held at that point, and no further, by the Door Club anchored in the concrete slab)

If this actually were to happen, to me.


I have not heard of it happening.

Double Naught Spy
September 4, 2012, 08:13 PM
I have known the owner of the LGS for a few years. We have hunted together, had family dinners together, and has always been straight with me.

Now, if you had someone who is a friend and told you what had been happening at his business would you believe him or just call it tin foil?

Definitely tin foil. It doesn't matter who it is if they say something crazy, then it is crazy. The issue was not as you and your LGS owner apparently implied which was definitely tin foil hattery.

There is no reason IMO for the two customers to relay a story like this unless, what? Many still believe around here that your word is your bond so I really have a hard time believing two guys on two separate occasions came in telling the same story unless there was an orchestrated conspiracy for what reason.

See, there is the rub. You don't even know who is telling the stories, but you went from bulk ammo to being put on ATF watchlists, as if it was some big deal. Do you even know what it means to be on an ATF watchlist? As for the stories and people's word, I am sure nobody ever stretches the truth, plays jokes, or otherwise presents information in a manner other than a way that is 100% accurate and containing of relevant information.

What is really interesting is that when the driver issue came up, you mmediately upped the stakes by saying you really thought it was somebody much higher up the food chain, as if this was some big conspiracy. People's words may be their bonds, but blowing things out of proportion is where the tin foil aspect shows itself.

Al my UPS delivery guy is almost a friend and I plan on asking him "IF" I can catch him. I really think (with nothing but a hunch) the reporting comes much further up the food chain than the driver. But I will make an effort to ask for sure.

Something tells me that there aren't going to be any more of these supposed ATF visits and nobody is going on any watchlists just because they ordered some ammo. Even if they were called via the driver, I am sure that has been put to a halt. Its really a non-issue that can happen anytime there is a misunderstanding on behalf of a witness/informant or somebody not otherwise familiar with the law.

zxcvbob
September 4, 2012, 08:25 PM
that's what They want you you believe...
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/Smileys/default/hat-tin-foil-smiley.gif

SharpsDressedMan
September 4, 2012, 09:01 PM
It was a UPS driver that got nervous delivering dummy hand grenades to the Branch Dividians, wasn't it? That was the alleged "probable cause" that pushed the authorities over the edge, from sitting and watching, to burning the place down.

Jorg Nysgerrig
September 4, 2012, 09:09 PM
If I lived down there (glad I don't) I would simply not mail-order my ammo, and buy in-person, cash only.

Hm, it's almost as if someone in this thread predicted that this story might have that kind of effect. Now, if we could only nail down who might benefit from such a reaction...

Warp
September 4, 2012, 09:16 PM
The heck with buying in person in cash. Better prices can almost always be found online.

My UPS driver will have to keep carrying those boxes.

788Ham
September 4, 2012, 09:26 PM
If whats been on these 4 pages is absolutely true, the ATF has time to check out "whom is buying what, and how much", what a waste of our monies and time! Maybe their getting paranoid about how much is out there, how they'll go about getting through all of this "flak" ! They should have been more interested in the Fast and Furious while they had their hands involved....... on well, such is life in DC. Don't forget to vote !

Sky
September 4, 2012, 10:40 PM
Update:

LGS was closed today but spoke with the owner and will try to see if I can talk to one of the story tellers tomorrow.

Next: Just by luck I spoke with my UPS delivery driver and told him the story. Then asked if there had been a change in policy. There has been nothing put out to the drivers that he is aware of. He laughed and said he did not even know what the deal is on a gun delivery. So to me it means if everything else is true that it was a driver or farther up the food chain for maybe other reasons that are not readily apparent? Your guess is as good as mine?

The driver was running late (it was 19:30 they work the hind end off) but stopped to talk a bit and listen, good guy. I did tell him I should be having a ammo shipment within the next week or so and we will see. He joked and said, "if someone shows up it ain't because of him"!

I ordered some bulk ammo today in 7.62x39 SP (500) and some 12 gage shot shells. Got the confirmation number but no tracking number as of this writing.

Tomorrow I will drive to the range after speaking with the owner and have a chat with one of the guys if it can be arranged. All I can think to do at this stage.

Like many others I have ordered on line 'like forever' except for the occasional box at Walmart; not as much as I used to because the feral pigs have not wanted to come out and play but nevertheless that is the way I have purchased in the past and shall continue to do so. Hopefully I will find out a little more info tomorrow for some kind of closure.

WardenWolf
September 4, 2012, 10:42 PM
Correct response: "Come back with a warrant."

Fishslayer
September 4, 2012, 10:58 PM
Kind of wondering if the story, if true, might have some tie in to the recent TOS agreement from Microsloth that it is forbidden to use their software, etc, to buy/sell firearms. The consensus from people who seem way more knowlegable than I was that it is a CYA thing.

Maybe UPS is covering their A by reporting "large" ammo sales. I know, I know... 1K rounds isn't a large purchase by our standards but we've all seen the wide eyed infobabe on TV breathlessly report on the "huge ammunition cache" discovered under some miscreant's bed. "Hundreds of rounds!" :eek:

Maybe they're trying to show "due dilligence" by reporting red flags like big ammo purchases, paying in cash, having a week's worth of food on hand... you know.

lobo9er
September 4, 2012, 11:01 PM
[
nobody is going on any watchlists just because they ordered some ammo.

A close friend of mine was put on the do not fly list because his name was "to common". He was a Sgt. in the Army at the time and found out while attempting to fly for active duty.
In 2007 there were 700,000 names on the terrorist watch list. reportedly was growing 20,000 records a month (wether that is names or just new files I dont know) So anything is possible.

murdoc rose
September 4, 2012, 11:03 PM
If there was any truth to this half of thr's members would be getting monthly visits.

Sky
September 4, 2012, 11:42 PM
Maybe UPS is covering their A by reporting "large" ammo sales.

Well according to my UPS guy it is not an official policy put out to the drivers. Do not know about any further up the chain of command.

texgunner
September 5, 2012, 02:01 AM
One could always buy bulk at a gun show and pay cash.

Well there is the possibility of being followed by under cover agents.

evan price
September 5, 2012, 05:45 AM
Y'all, it's OK!

By sheer virtue of frequenting gun forums we are ALL on the list for the re-education camps of harsh regimine.
I'll save you a seat by the razor wire.

FROGO207
September 5, 2012, 07:27 AM
^^:D^^ Yeah right:rolleyes:

Sky
September 5, 2012, 12:29 PM
Ta Da!!

I just got off the phone with one of the individuals this happened to. He called me from work on his lunch break.

We will call him Mex. He did not want me to use any part of his real name. He speaks English very well considering many around here do not.

This is what Mex told me.

He ordered 3000 rounds in 223 which was delivered in the morning at his residence before he departed for work at 9 am.

He stored the ammo and then left for work. He was 3 blocks from his house and saw a Border Patrol vehicle parked in an empty lot and thought to himself that they must be after someone but otherwise did not think much else. We see Border patrol almost everyday going about their business so it is not that unusual.

Now his job requires him to work on the Mexican side of the wall which is still on the Texas side of the border. Google it there have been many problems with people who have homes on the wrong side of the wall....Property values are none existent and is an all around big hassle for "people on the wrong side of the wall".

He returned home and shortly after arriving he got the knock on the door. There were 6 guys and one female agent at his door. He thinks they were all ICE and Border Patrol agents and does not think any were BTAF but is not 100% sure. They were very professional and wanted to see his gun (s) the ammo went to and wanted him to sign a waver that he allowed them to do so..A balistic test was never mentioned to Mex or being placed on some watch list. My two cents would be since he got the visit someone must be watching, no?

Mex is a normal hard working guy from what I could tell. He thought they were checking to see if he was supplying guns and ammo south of the border. He thought about the whole "get a search warrant thing" but figured he did not need the hassle or expense if he went that route. He is not paranoid from what I could tell but is also aware things happen to someone who rocks the system.

Mex figured and they indicated that with some of the stuff that has gone on in the last few months they were wanting to be sure he was not running guns south and was not some kind of weirdo. Mex mentioned that he knows of two other people this has happened to.

I told him about THR and invited him to join when he told me he had ordered 10 firearms in the last couple of years; he said he would check it out.

This answers many questions in my mind. The nuts and bolts about how they knew he was receiving the ammo is still not clear or answered but I doubt it is to complicated for some agency who wants to know what is going where and to whom.

I will continue to try and see how many others this has happened to. Mex and I will meet up at the range one day in the near future and we will have a deeper, longer conversation.

Jorg Nysgerrig
September 5, 2012, 12:43 PM
Border. The word is border. It is hard to take you seriously when you make the same mistake over and over. Border. A boarder lives with you. You live near a border.

Please, for the sanity of all the pedantic fools who have taken the time to master the esoteric art of homophones, use the right word. Thanks! :)

rangerphil
September 5, 2012, 01:00 PM
Don't you think the "boarder" comments are a little harsh, moderator? Your tone directed to a member with over 2,700 posts on this forum is, in my opinion, not appropriate. There...I said it.

j1
September 5, 2012, 01:02 PM
I have done nothing but legal things for the last 72 years and feel cooperative with leos but what is the right thing to do? Ask for a search warrant? Is there any good reason not to cooperate and answer questions?

Sky
September 5, 2012, 01:03 PM
Border. The word is border. It is hard to take you seriously when you make the same mistake over and over. Border. A boarder lives with you. You live near a border.

Please, for the sanity of all the pedantic fools who have taken the time to master the esoteric art of homophones, use the right word. Thanks!

No thank you Jorg; English is supposed to be my native language but alas I guess I spell south Texan or am just not thinking....again thanks

Sky
September 5, 2012, 01:07 PM
Don't you think the "boarder" comments are a little harsh, moderator? Your tone directed to a member with over 2,700 posts on this forum is, in my opinion, not appropriate. There...I said it.

Hahahaha thanks but trust me I do not mind when someone points out that I am doing something wrong. We do have members from all over the world and sometimes what they are trying to say is more like a crossword puzzle but hey at least they try. Certainly do better with English than I would with their language.

rangerphil
September 5, 2012, 01:09 PM
OK, I've calmed down now. I will still stand by the spirit of my comments, even if they were not made in an appropriate manner.

rangerphil
September 5, 2012, 01:10 PM
And I apologize for moving the thread off-topic.

Double Naught Spy
September 5, 2012, 01:17 PM
Border. The word is border.

And that is written on the vehicles Sky sees nearly every day, in big letters. That's how you know it is a Border Patrol vehicle...such as from these pictures from Texas.
http://www.spraguephoto.com/imageresponse.lasso?id=12410

Ta Da!!

So it wasn't the ATF, despite the claims of the LGS. Interesting. Mex would not have reported the ATF to the guy since Mex didn't identify any of the folks as being ATF. So now is the guy on the ATF watchlist?

Sky
September 5, 2012, 01:35 PM
I shoot with a couple of big fish in the little pond lawyers around here and one is a pretty good friend and is Mexican. I want to try and speak with one or two others this has supposedly happen to before I make a judgement one way or the other. The story when first presented made me want to call B.S. and I would have except, I trust the owner of the LGS.

Like I said, I will meet Mex sometime in the near future and will continue to try and speak with the other two people this has happened to ( I do not speak passable Spanish but I might get lucky and they speak English). I had thought it was only two but Mex said he knew two others that got the visit. Mex was one of two that had told their story to the LGS.

Jorg Nysgerrig
September 5, 2012, 01:57 PM
No thank you Jorg; English is supposed to be my native language but alas I guess I spell south Texan or am just not thinking....again thanks
Hopefully my last line conveyed the light-hearted nature of my post.

lobo9er
September 5, 2012, 11:08 PM
First off I gotta hand it to Sky you tracked down the facts and let us know the whole story. Sky never said the sky is falling :). He recounted a story to us he heard that in my opinion was very plausible, and it turned out to be as he said with maybe a few details off. (it was still a story I read on the internet but...) So he tracked down those involved and gave us the rest of the story. And in the end, if all is as he says, not so "tin foil" anymore as ya'll seem to like say.

captain awesome
September 5, 2012, 11:33 PM
My response would have been(instead of politely complying or declining) "not a chance in hell, I haven't broken any laws and you don't have a warrant, now get off my property."

Sky
September 6, 2012, 11:36 AM
First off I gotta hand it to Sky you tracked down the facts and let us know the whole story. Sky never said the sky is falling . He recounted a story to us he heard that in my opinion was very plausible, and it turned out to be as he said with maybe a few details off. (it was still a story I read on the internet but...) So he tracked down those involved and gave us the rest of the story. And in the end, if all is as he says, not so "tin foil" anymore as ya'll seem to like say.

Thank you for your thoughts.

I knew this would be out there in "lala land" for some but also felt it was important (to me anyway) to try and find out if anyone else has come across the same thing. I am just old and do not care like I once did what people think; I just want to get to the bottom of something.

My order should be here in a week or so and if I get a knock I will let everyone know...I do not anticipate anything other than business as usual.

The border states have had problems with corruption up and down the food chain to include Mayors and police caught in doing the dirty deed. As far as I am concerned when we come across something like this in our own back yard it behoves us to look for the details.


It should never be dumb to question! It's just dumb to accept without clarification

Certaindeaf
September 6, 2012, 11:41 AM
I gotta hand it to you Sky, you really followed through and delivered with this odd and vexing situation/happening. thanks

murdoc rose
September 6, 2012, 12:11 PM
This did turn out to be a far better thread that hoped. The key to this is location.

gym
September 6, 2012, 12:19 PM
And what if you didn't have the gun. Is there some place that says you have to have the gun to buy the ammo? Or you got a good deal and sold the gun and the ammo. Or you sold the ammo at a show?
Unless it's illegal to own ammo that you don't have the weapon for, this would make little sense other than to warn someone that they wre being watched. It dosen't make sense to me.
It makes mor sense that the gun shop owner hasn't been selling much ammo as of late. Possiblly he will sell much more if folks think the ATF is going to visit them.

Certaindeaf
September 6, 2012, 12:25 PM
^
Very good points. It would seem to me that a judge would have to uh, judge.

Sam1911
September 6, 2012, 12:30 PM
And what if you didn't have the gun. Is there some place that says you have to have the gun to buy the ammo? Or you got a good deal and sold the gun and the ammo. Or you sold the ammo at a show?
Unless it's illegal to own ammo that you don't have the weapon for, this would make little sense other than to warn someone that they wre being watched. It dosen't make sense to me.
It makes mor sense that the gun shop owner hasn't been selling much ammo as of late. Possiblly he will sell much more if folks think the ATF is going to visit them.
Well, there's the rub. If it is perfectly legal to own 457 cases of ammo (and it is) for any gun you own -- or any gun you DON'T own (and, still, it IS), AND if it is legal to dispose of ammo in 'most any way you see fit, either by shooting it, or selling it, or EATING it if you've a mind to (and...more or less, it IS) -- then these visits don't seem to make much sense outside of being "fishing expeditions" or possibly heavy-handed warnings that "we're watching."

Regardless of which, and in all events, the appropriate answer appears to be "you may see anything you can get a WARRANT to search for -- now, have a nice day and don't let the gate slam on the way out."

Old Fuff
September 6, 2012, 12:50 PM
The Old Fuff would observe that the BATF/E and FBI do not always have a history of respect for Constitution Rights. :uhoh:

On the question of warrants. I suspect that if they were stonewalled at the door and wanted to, an application for a warrant based on "unusually large, extraordinary, and frequent ammunition purchases" in a location close to the U.S./Mexican border would be quickly rubber-stamped. They might not get anywhere, but they could make life miserable for someone.

Deanimator
September 6, 2012, 12:56 PM
Is there any good reason not to cooperate and answer questions?
They're not your friends.

They're government employees of unknown and indeed unknowable motivations.

You have fouth and fifth amendment protections for a reason.

A stranger with government credentials is still a stranger.

He can get a warrant or he can get steppin'.

zxcvbob
September 6, 2012, 01:02 PM
On the question of warrants. I suspect that if they were stonewalled at the door and wanted to, an application for a warrant based on "unusually large, extraordinary, and frequent ammunition purchases" in a location close to the U.S./Mexican border would be quickly rubber-stamped. They might not get anywhere, but they could make life miserable for someone.

Of course they can get a warrant. That's the procedure, and they are not your friends so there is no reason for you to make their jobs easier. Make 'em do it just like they make you file a tax return.

Krogen
September 6, 2012, 01:14 PM
I don't see the reasons for either complete cooperation or complete non-cooperation. Keeping in mind that the visitors don't have my best interests as their priority, I like to think I'd have the presence of mind to ask them a few questions before I decided to cooperate or not. I'd be more inclined to bring the gun to the door and let them see it in my hands than let them into the house and follow me to my safe. Let them see it, but not let them handle it or record the serial number. A lot depends on their attitudes too. Sure, this approach presents a slippery slope, but it seems that civility without completely rolling over is the right approach.

Certaindeaf
September 6, 2012, 01:16 PM
As soon as you open the door, they can and will come in without a warrant. If you don't, perhaps they'll be able to get a warrant and kick the door in. Don't open the door to strangers.

Sam1911
September 6, 2012, 01:18 PM
As soon as you open the door, they can and will come in without a warrant. What? That's not (at all) how this works. Opening the door doesn't give them any more right to enter than leaving the door closed.

Certaindeaf
September 6, 2012, 01:22 PM
What? That's not (at all) how this works. Opening the door doesn't give them any more right to enter than leaving the door closed.
I don't know about that. Given a modicum of motivation, you might be surprised what was/is "required/possible".

Sam1911
September 6, 2012, 01:32 PM
It isn't that they CANNOT enter. Of course they could always force their way inside, at gunpoint if they want. But without a warrant or exigent circumstances relating to a known or suspected crime in progress (where they have articulable reason that they they MUST enter to save a life or preserve evidence of a suspected crime), that's an unlawful search and not only is nothing they find admissible in court, but it opens them up to legal troubles.

Judges don't play around with that, and law enforcement officers are very well trained in these issues in the modern day.

"Well, he opened his door..." isn't going to fly as a reason for an entry and search AT ALL.

lobo9er
September 6, 2012, 01:56 PM
The key to this is location.

The location is within the united states borders.

Sky
September 6, 2012, 02:59 PM
Guys I understand the discussion on how to meet and greet; what is proper and legal and what is a perceived reality for others. Many along the border do not want anything to do with some authority figure for what ever reason.

O.K. they come to my house and I meet them with The Constitution in my hand and clothed in a don't tread on me flag..Their response and report will probably indicate the encounter and ?? make up your own happy ending. Cause and effect, anyone?

They come to the door and I am just myself, a licensed responsible CHL holder for the state of Texas who purchased ammo for hunting/training and teaching. I answer their questions and pump them for information; two way street. Their report should indicate the encounter. Their questions got answered. They were sent to my/your residence to ask and get to the bottom of why and when; not their choice just part of their job.

I shoot with Border Patrol, a few ICE, and even a few LEOs who all are just guys trying to do the best they can with what they have to work with. I honestly do not know any jerks in the whole bunch that I have encountered.

So, I can go into a full blown confrontation mode and get one set of results or I can just be myself and see what happens. These are my choices as I see them and may not be for everyone. I doubt I will have company after my order arrives but if I do I know what will be my response.

Hahahah my neighbor is one of the big boys for border patrol but I have not been able to catch him when out and about. I do plan on speaking with him when it appears to be a good time or I catch him outside.

Whew, I am retired; it seems I am busier now than I was when I worked; fighting injustice (in my mind), able to crawl over small barriers at the speed of an old lizard, all for mom and apple pie! Hooo Rah!

chevyman097
September 6, 2012, 03:00 PM
This thread gave me a head ache. :banghead:

Sam1911
September 6, 2012, 03:20 PM
I get what you're saying about just trying to get along. And you'll have to do whatever you're comfortable doing. However, having your weapon inspected, and answering official questions about your activities IS an imposition. Regardless of wanting to get along with your friends and neighbors, we really do need to be sending the message that it is not ok to go fishing this way.

If your neighbor comes into your house and fondles your stuff whenever he wants, you can decide to overlook that just to get along. But you are absolutely in your rights, and being perfectly proper and polite, to explain that he's crossing a boundary and that is not acceptable.

Now when that "neighbor" is a government agency (or two?) crossing lines that are Constitutionally established? I think it goes far beyond politeness to remind them where their powers end.

If they feel they have a CHARGE to bring against me, that's fine. Let's see it, and let's handle that through official channels. If they're just "checking up"? No, sorry, I just do not wish to go along with that for the sake of niceties.

PBR Streetgang
September 6, 2012, 03:21 PM
My FEDEX driver blows the horn for me and my handtruck.....he told me a large number of the packages he now delivers is from CTD and other ammo suppliers. There is no law that you need to have a firearm to purchase ammunition. So I question them (ATF) coming and asking to see such weapon without a search warrant. ( I've written a fair amount of search warrants, so I'm familiar with the process)
But if you make threats or suggest illegal activity on you part in any Internet forum, THAT could award you a visit from a member of one of the alphabet Federal agencies.The Feds do occasionally monitor activities on these kinds of forums if they have cause.

Sky
September 6, 2012, 03:47 PM
I get what you're saying about just trying to get along. And you'll have to do whatever you're comfortable doing. However, having your weapon inspected, and answering official questions about your activities IS an imposition. Regardless of wanting to get along with your friends and neighbors, we really do need to be sending the message that it is not OK to go fishing this way.

If your neighbor comes into your house and fondles your stuff whenever he wants, you can decide to overlook that just to get along. But you are absolutely in your rights, and being perfectly proper and polite, to explain that he's crossing a boundary and that is not acceptable.

Now when that "neighbor" is a government agency (or two?) crossing lines that are Constitutionally established? I think it goes far beyond politeness to remind them where their powers end.

If they feel they have a CHARGE to bring against me, that's fine. Let's see it, and let's handle that through official channels. If they're just "checking up"? No, sorry, I just do not wish to go along with that for the sake of niceties.

Sam of all the older Mods we have you are the one I agree with most often; your responses are well written and researched. I even agree with you in your last post. Not sucking up just stating fact.

I try to chose my battles and if the visits branch out and become a normal procedure around here then when I have my stuff together it will not be to hard to approach this with a united front an actual chance of being heard.

We have a great group of guys around here who will actually stand up against what they believe is not proper conduct by anyone; ways and means of filing appropriate paperwork to get the governing agencies attention. Until it is in writing it is just ranting.

At this stage I have spoken with the LGS and one individual who got the visit. Until I can speak with a few more (there are possibly 3 more) and see for myself what the drill is I am in a holding pattern waiting for clearance to proceed.

zxcvbob
September 6, 2012, 03:58 PM
Now when that "neighbor" is a government agency (or two?) crossing lines that are Constitutionally established? I think it goes far beyond politeness to remind them where their powers end.

If they feel they have a CHARGE to bring against me, that's fine. Let's see it, and let's handle that through official channels. If they're just "checking up"? No, sorry, I just do not wish to go along with that for the sake of niceties.

Let's say I have a C&R license, does that change where the line is drawn? I think it does move the line, but not very far. (ATF has to make an appointment to inspect my guns and/or my bound book, not just show up unannounced, and then only the guns actually recorded in my book) Even then I don't think I have to let them in the house w/o a warrant; I can bring the stuff out on the porch for them to look at it.

lloveless
September 6, 2012, 05:14 PM
There are several who are provacatively anti-government, anti-cooperative, to the point of sounding belligerent. Act that way when they come to your door, and then let us know how it turns out. I am not saying let the agents run over you, but being polite, and firm accomplishs a lot more.
ll

Certaindeaf
September 6, 2012, 05:33 PM
There are several who are provacatively anti-government, anti-cooperative, to the point of sounding belligerent. Act that way when they come to your door, and then let us know how it turns out..That's for sure.
Where's the rope/telephone!?

chevyman097
September 6, 2012, 05:50 PM
Lloveless:

Yes we belong to the government, right. So we should allow them into our homes at the drop a hat....


This thread wont last much longer...

covconv
September 6, 2012, 07:01 PM
Sounds like your LGS owner is trying to scare you away from buying discounted ammo over the Internet.

rajb123
September 6, 2012, 07:21 PM
If the group Annonomous can factually determine that the FBI has Apple cell phone tracking data on 12 million Americans that was obtained without obtaining legal search warrants and that the FBI then denies this, why would I question whether the ATF has done this to citizens who purchase ammo legally?

tnelson31
September 6, 2012, 07:36 PM
My take is that the government is meant to enforce societal (did I get that right :) ) rules via laws...BUT one does not need to follow societal rules when interfacing with them. The law is not up for (much, hopefully) interpretation, but societal rules are. So you put yourself at risk when not following procedure, even though it shows good social behavior.

Sure, I have nothing to hide. I am a good member of society, see?

Deanimator
September 6, 2012, 07:40 PM
There are several who are provacatively anti-government, anti-cooperative, to the point of sounding belligerent. Act that way when they come to your door, and then let us know how it turns out. I am not saying let the agents run over you, but being polite, and firm accomplishs a lot more.

I never opened the door, they didn't kick it in and they left.
I refused to talk to them without a lawyer present. We never talked.

jmorris
September 6, 2012, 07:52 PM
I live in TX and order ammo components in bulk, last bullet order was for 20,000 last primer order 40,000. Never had the ATF stop by. Also, I didn't know that you had to own a gun for every round you have.

Double_J
September 6, 2012, 07:58 PM
I do have a friend who is on a watch list for buying a bulk purchase of black powder online. He and a few other re-enactors purchased about 20 pounds of black powder at one time to save on shipping and hazmat charges. He also was told by the local ATF special agent that he was now on a watch list, this was also right after the USS Cole bombing a few years ago. He now has a CDL with hazmat, and tanker endorsements, in addition to a CCW permit. I would classify that he is one of the good guys and that if the government had a problem with him he would not have a CDL, much less hazmat and tanker endorsements. (those allowing for a much bigger boom than 20 pounds of black powder to my rough estimation)

bigfatdave
September 6, 2012, 08:41 PM
I like to think I'd have the presence of mind to ask them a few questions before I decided to cooperate or not.and there would be no legal requirement for them to truthfully answer your questions

look up the concept of "reasonable deception"

Then stop helping the government violate your rights over their imagined "war on <noun>"

lobo9er
September 6, 2012, 08:49 PM
But if you make threats or suggest illegal activity on you part in any Internet forum, are you implying something was said in this thread or are you just speaking "in general"?

Sounds like your LGS owner is trying to scare you away from buying discounted ammo over the Internet.

covconv did you read the tread?

OilyPablo
September 6, 2012, 08:52 PM
Somebody needs to write a letter to "the most open administration in USA history".

Sky
September 6, 2012, 09:22 PM
Since some members have hurt their eyes reading this thread or gotten a head ache with my poor attempt at providing what details that I have; I will ask Sam or someone to close it. When I get further info with something tangible I will post a follow up. For those who provided insight/second hand stories and links I humbly thank you. It has been an educational process for me that has been interesting. Border!

danprkr
September 6, 2012, 09:24 PM
I haven't done a bulk purchase in a couple of years here in TX, but once in a while some friends and I will combine orders to save on shipping and take advantage of discounts. If it happens next time I will post it for you.

floorit76
September 6, 2012, 09:27 PM
What a shame. Someone takes the time to report, and track something down. Only to be made fun of.

Fred Fuller
September 6, 2012, 10:45 PM
Closed per OP request

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