[leadcounsel]

How is it that bump fire designed stocks have passed muster with the ATF when a shoelace can be considered a constructive full automatic accessory...?

I'm all for full auto and think these are great innovations. But after watching videos of shooting, they clearly easily turn a semi-auto rifle into a fully auto rifle...

So what gives? I've never spent the time to research it, but surely someone here has...

[BearGriz]

One pull of the trigger equals one shot, hence it it legal. The stock just makes it easier to engage the trigger rapidly by harnessing the recoil.

[Sport45]

In one, your finger is rapidly activating the trigger (legal). In the other, the shoelace becomes the modified trigger and you're only activating it once for multiple shots (illegal).

[mboylan]

Bump fire does not equal true full auto. It's not the real thing. You need to apply forward pressure to the forend and let the recoil slam your trigger finger against the trigger for each shot.

[Sam1911]

One pull of the trigger equals one shot, hence it it legal. The stock just makes it easier to engage the trigger rapidly by harnessing the recoil.
Exactly.

Now, the grey area comes in how the ATF managed to decide the old Akins Accelerator stocks WERE machine guns, but the Slidefire stocks aren't, when the substantive difference is that the Akins has a spring to push the action forward against your finger while you have to pull the Slidefire stock forward manually.

I think the Akins situation was just a bad judgment on the ATF's part.

[Nickel Plated]

Then there's the whole "readily convertible" thing. Semi-auto open-bolt guns were banned because they were deemed to be too easy to convert to full-auto.

So how is it that bump-fire stocks are OK? Quite honestly they are probably easier to convert than a open-bolt gun. Just stick a spring in there.

[Kyle M.]

Then there's the whole "readily convertible" thing. Semi-auto open-bolt guns were banned because they were deemed to be too easy to convert to full-auto.

So how is it that bump-fire stocks are OK? Quite honestly they are probably easier to convert than a open-bolt gun. Just stick a spring in there.

Even if you stick a spring in there your still getting one shot for each pull of the trigger. Therefore not a machinegun. Also you can own an open bolt semi auto from when they were still being made it's just that they can no longer be made.

[jmorris]

The Atkins stock and the AW Sim 1919 and AK platforms all used springs in the design, so you pulled the trigger once, the actions recoiled to the rear, the spring drove them back into your finger without further shooter input. Once you remove the spring (you use your other arm in place of the spring) the shooter is pushing the action back into your trigger finger.

Or, if you have spring hinges on a door it shuts itself "fully automatic", if not you have to close it.

[Quiet]

The BATFE may have signed off on it, but check with your state laws.

In CA...
It is considered to be a "multiburst trigger activator" and not legal (felony) to import/manufacturer/possess/transfer in CA.
The way the law is written mere possession of the stock (not attached to a firearm) is also illegal.


CA Penal Code 16930
As used in this part, a "multiburst trigger activator" means either of the following:
(a) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm, which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.
(b) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

CA Penal Code 32900
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any multiburst trigger activator is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

[Elessar]

Just adding my +1 that these bump fire stocks do not equate to a full auto gun. They are also clumsy and inaccurate. I can't think of a single thing that I couldn't accomplish much more successfully with a semi auto. Of course, I could almost say the same thing about actual full auto rifles also.

[BearGriz]

Just adding my +1 that these bump fire stocks do not equate to a full auto gun. They are also clumsy and inaccurate. I can't think of a single thing that I couldn't accomplish much more successfully with a semi auto.

I can think of one thing you can accomplish with them that you can't with your semi-auto: simulated full auto

They are tons of fun! I have one on a S&W M&P 15-22, and while it obviously degrades accuracy, I can still reliably hit a 6" diameter plate at about 25 yards burst after burst. Plus you can always switch it to semi-auto at any time. In the end, though, I don't think terms like tool, accuracy, precision, MOA, etc. are intended with these stocks.

I went with a .22LR so I could actually afford to burn through the ammo.

Now, I did have to modify the trigger (to 3.5 lb. as opposed to the stock 6-8 lb. trigger) so it would work with the lighter recoil. The result is a ton of fun, but there are times when the lighter trigger does a "light strike" and I have to eject out the round that didn't fire. So, yes, if you do it on a .22LR, I will admit that there are times when it is a bit clumsy. Also, it does take about 3-4 magazines before you stop trying to pull the trigger. By then you are used to the new method.

But it is still the closest I can legally (and financially) come to full-auto.

One caution!! They are not necessarily safe. Completely changing your method of firing can have unintended consequences. You rest your trigger finger on a rest in front of the tigger. So, for example, if you leave it like that (finger in front of trigger), and point the firearm down, the gun will slip forward, your finger will engage on the trigger, and you will have an AD/ND (whichever one you wanna call it, it is all just semantics). I will only let people use the gun if I am right there coaching them and helping them understand all of the implications.

[MasterSergeantA]

BearGriz listed all of the reasons these things sell. Semi-auto fire is almost always more accurate, but that doesn't negate the 'fun factor'. I have a SMG that fires (relatively) cheap 9mm with a 100 rd drum. Doing a magazine dump for a noob is always a rush. It will also fire SA...not nearly as much of a hoot if you have never done it.

[Trent]

Has the ATF issued a paper ruling on slidefire?

I don't believe they have yet. I think it's just verbal; there's nothing in writing that you can keep a copy of ..

Correct me if I'm wrong please. :)

[Fanfare Ends]

Link to PDF of the ATF letter on the Slidefire website. (http://www.slidefire.com/downloads/BATFE.pdf)

[jmorris]

Yep, they had the letter up to download before they started shipping.

[Trent]

Cool! I might get one of these just for the fun factor.

Do they make them for PKM's? :) :) :)

[zignal_zero]

I've shot both the slidefire and FA's and do not think they are very similar :( in fact, years ago a friend had a Hellfire Trigger system (similar purpose) and his dad referred to it as "The bullet waster". That name seems so appropriate and could be used for EVERY new fangled device they create to help make believe yer gun is full auto :)

[crazy-mp]

Still waiting for the bump fire Glock kit :uhoh:

[gunner69]

If you can afford the $$$$ the bump fire (slidefire) stocks are a hoot to shoot. I sold most all of my legal full auto stuff. I still feel "Uncle" will someday knock on my door and ask to see my collection. All the stuff I own now will most likely remain legal. It's not the cost of the SlideFire Stock it's the cost of the AMMO it eats at a quick rate.

[Ingsoc75]

I've never had the pleasure of shooting a full auto rifle but when shooting my AK rifle with the SSAK47 Slide fire device, I found it fairly accurate to control during a mag dump.

So what if I just spent a few minutes loading 30 rounds into that magazine prior to firing, it was fun! :)

[Trent]

Rate of fire on slidefire w/ AK47 exactly matches the rate of fire on FA Ak-47. (Pulled up side by side videos of me shooting a FA Ak47 and other shooting slidefire - it matches rat for tat...)

Quick way to blow through a lot of ammo, that's for sure. As far as accuracy, the AK-47 is a frigging bullet hose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li5EcyksD2I

Compare to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGv78ThPmNo

[fulltanghalo]

(b) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

I'm not a lawyer but I fail to see how that law would stand up to a challenge in court for being overly vague. Increases the ROF compared to what, or who? A firearm has a "limit" to how fast it can fire only by the physical movement of the mechanical parts. It's like restricting a device that causes light to travel faster than the speed of light, it's either able to shoot that fast or it isn't, you can't transcend that physical limit.

[zignal_zero]

FULLTANGHALO

Brings up a valid point. What happens when some Ed McGivern type comes in and shows what a semi auto trigger can reallt do on its own compared to someone trying to keep up (and failing) with their slidefire :)

For this that don't know - Ed McGivern (whose name I might be misspelling) shot DA revolvers because semi autos were too slow. He could continue shooting a revolver while he would be waiting for the slide on an auto to close. Seriously, his best group was 5 shots into a playing card at 15' in 2/5 of a second. When asked about equipment, once, he said to make sure u go with a reputable mfg....... like H&R is a good one he said :)

[Trent]

5 shots in .2 seconds?!?! My finger can't possibly move that fast.

[Brockak47]

the slidefire stock looks to be the most fun on a S&W MP 22 rifle.

[justice06rr]

It is legal because you still have a Semi-auto trigger group, not a Full-auto Fire control group. The Bump-fire device just adds a way to reuse the recoil of your rifle to simulate full auto. Keyword is SIMULATE. You're rifle does NOT actually become full-auto with this device.

A friend of mine has fired it on her 5.56 AR15 and she said the accuracy is not too bad on short bursts. Definitely a lot of fun for those who can afford the stock and don't mind burning through a lot of ammo.

[Trent]

Justice - as I pointed out in the videos above, the rate of fire is equivalent to full auto. You're going to get full cyclic rate if you do it right. :)

Of course.. I HAVE to get one for field testing. Gonna keep that Dillon 650 in the basement busy busy busy...