[BBDartCA]

Have you given up on a SD caliber? And if so, what caliber did you return to. For example, stopped carrying 45 ACP because of magazine capacity or cost, then went back to 9mm +P.

[Inebriated]

.40 S&W...


Because 10mm is a thing.

[R.W.Dale]

Yes

44 special

Underperforming factory sd ammo was primarily why

357 sig

Too much bullet setback for day to day use.

Ironically I sometimes carry a 32 mag nowadays loaded with wadcutters

[coalman]

.40sw. Nothing offered over 9mm or .45acp offsets recoil in guns I want to own.

[303tom]

Have tried every thing, right now I am carrying a .327 Mag................

[mdauben]

.40sw. Nothing offered over 9mm or .45acp offsets recoil in guns I want to own.
Not sure I would say I gave up on .40S&W, so much as I never accepted it to begin with. :neener:

[Quiet]

.40S&W

Replaced with .45 caliber (.45GAP and .45ACP) handguns

[BSA1]

Not sure I would say I gave up on .40S&W, so much as I never accepted it to begin with

Ditto. I believe shot placement is more importment that the caliber. This is not enough different in stopping power between 45 and 9mm to cause me to switch to the 40.

[ny32182]

I've owned, and still own at least one gun in just about every common service caliber in the US (except for .45 which never appealed to me). After a while I discovered what most worldwide have known since 1902: At the end of the day 9mm is the best total package of a round out there. It has everything you need and nothing you don't.

[mljdeckard]

.40 S&W. Modern 9mm bullets close the gap on any advantage it had when it was introduced.

[Godsgunman]

I gave up on .380. Too under powered and way over priced. With 9mm being so readily available, cheaper, and far better, it makes the .380 pretty worthless in my opinion.

[2wheels]

I'm another guy who had a fling with .40S&W, but ended it for another caliber(s).

I liked the round, but since I was also shooting/carrying 9mm, .45ACP, and .380 it seemed redundant.

I might ditch .380 too if I ever get my hands on a P938.

[wildehond]

Brilliant, another 40S&W bashing thread. :scrutiny:

[mljdeckard]

I have actually changed my mind on .380 as well, but in the other direction. Modern loads have made it overlap into 9mm range for effectiveness. I have moved it from "no" to "yes with an asterisk".

Ok wildehond, which of the reasons people have given for dropping the .40 do you disagree with, and why?

[drsfmd]

9mm-- insufficient stopping power. I'd rather take the lack of capacity in the 45.

[Skribs]

I started off with .40, mainly because I couldn't decide between .40 and 9. I'm now slowly moving towards 9.

Gave up on .380, .38, and .357 not because of the caliber per se (although I'd rather have 9mm than .380), but because of capacity in their respective platforms.

[Ehtereon11B]

I'll break the mold here. 40S&W is my favorite all around caliber. Good blend between capacity and power. And since I have been shooting it for so long I am more accurate with .40 than 9mm or .380

I used to CC .25 and .32 handguns. Got tired of looking for quality ammo for it and there are much better calibers out there.

[CraigC]

With 9mm being so readily available, cheaper, and far better, it makes the .380 pretty worthless in my opinion.
Really? I wouldn't call a .380 the size of a .32 "worthless" by any stretch of the imagination. I know of no 11oz 9mm's the size of a .380. There are some lightweight 9mm's on the market but all are bigger than a .380. Pocket pistols will always have a place. In a mid or full-sized gun, I'd rather have a .45ACP but I do NOT place the same importance on chambering than many seem to. The most important weapon we have is the one between our ears.

[olderguns]

Gave up 9mm... in favor of 45acp....then a year ago gave up 45acp in favor of 10mm

[jeepnik]

About 40 years ago, I gave up on the 9mm. I had used a .45 acp, but "came across" a BHP. That big magazine seemed like a good idea at the time. It later became apparent that the 9mm just wasn't up to the task, and I switched, happily, back to the .45 acp. Been there ever since.

Oh, and the ammo available at the time and place was all FJM. And, I understand that today's 9mm ammo is better, but then again, so is today's .45 acp ammo.

[TAKtical]

.40 s&w, .50 gi

[Teachu2]

I gave up on .380, as my pockets hold a 9mm just fine. Like several others here, I never warmed up to the .40S&W.

[el Godfather]

Yes.
As much as I like and will never get rid of my Glock 19- I have started using H&K USP 45. It just fits my hands better and I adore the USP decock-safe lever system.

[481]

Gave up on the .40 .

It does nothing that a .45 or a 9mm cannot and solves no problem that I have, not that I have any that need solving.

If I want to carry a large caliber gun, I'll carry a .45. Might as well go all the way and do it right- the .40 just barely makes the cut.

If I want high capacity, I'll carry the 9mm. In an identical platform it gives me more ammo than a .40, it's gentle on recoil and my pocketbook, and its premium JHP designs do all that I could ever ask of it.

[fastest45ever]

.380. At the time the smallest was a PPK/S. Too big, heavy, and bad trigger. Not all that accurate. 380 was expensive, and difficult to load.

9MM:
Same size bullet as .380, hard to seat with big fingers, not all that easy to get the guns to be accurate loading for them at that time.

.44 Special:
Not enough quality CCW guns around. Big case, great round if handloaded to potential, but no guns except .44 Magnums to shoot it out of at that level, and time. .44 Bulldog was it, and wasn't up to the task.

These were all a long time ago, so the reasons for most have changed.

I now carry a 9mm sometimes.

[Deaf Smith]

Yes!

2.7 mm Kolibri!

But I'm still thinking the 4.25 Lilliput will do the job alright.

In reality I've got guns from .22 lr and .32 ACP/.32 S&W long all the way to .454 that I would not be afraid to pack for self defense.

With good ammo and shot placement they all can work.

Deaf

[Drifting Fate]

.40

One day I woke up and I just didn't own one any longer. I couldn't remember the last time I had and realized I wasn't bothered in the least by it. So, no more .40's.

[Clean97GTI]

Nope. After all these years, i still prefer my 12ga shotgun.
Shot placement = aim for the middle

[jimbo555]

No,I enjoy 22lr,38spl.9mm and 45acp.

[Mosbyranger]

I have not given up on any calibers per say, but I have gotten away from the pocket pistols chambered in 9mm and .380. Way too much recoil and long trigger pulls with short sight radius for my liking. My EDC is usually a Walther PPK/S, or a H&K P2000. In my view it's not so much a caliber issue as a packaging issue.
MR

[Viper225]

I have not given up on any caliber I have owned either.

On the Bottom end I carry my LCR-22 once in a while with 8 Stingers in it.

I carry the 38 Special +P in my 442, and 315 Night Guard.

I carry 357 Magnum in my 3" Model 66 & my 686.

I carry 10mm & 40 S&W in my 310 Night Guard.

And last but not least I also carry 45acp in my 3" Model 625, and Colt 1911.

Several years ago I owned a 3" Model 24, 44 Special and carried custom loaded ammo in it with more gusto than could be bought at the time. Buffalo Bore has probably cured that problem now days.

I do not feel under gunned carrying anything I own. I do however shoot way more than average.

I do not own a 32 or 380, and probably never will. They never made my need to own list. If you noticed other than a 1911, I carry revolvers.

Bob

[The Lone Haranguer]

.40 S&W because I dislike its recoil characteristics in small guns.
.45 Auto because of cost of practice ammo. :(

[C0untZer0]

The reason I started with 9mm is because when I started researching what handgun I wanted, I came across this thing called the P7M8.

It was totally facsinating. The Germans had created an uber-safe pistol and solved all the problems of crappy double-action or DA/SA semi-auto triggers, and solved the problems of having to work a manual safety, or carry cocked and locked.

I could only get one in 9mm, so that was that.

The Miami shoot out happened a year later and I've seen the rise of the forties, but I never had a doubt the nine could get the job done.

The Illinois State Police were using the Winchestrer 115gr +P+ and Federal 9BPLE to good effect, and the reports coming back from the field, from real shooting incidents is that it was a great round. The coroners who worked with the ISP were reporting good penetration and destruction of vital tissue when the round was used.

The FBI choose the Silvertip, there is nothing wrong with the Silvertip and it performed how it was designed to perform. But the Miami shootout sparked the quest for a new sidearm cartridge for the FBI and we know how that all happpened.

In the meantime, I stayed with 9mm and never waivered.

[orionengnr]

Yep, I gave up on the .40 S&W and the .44 Spl.

Now I have a 10mm and a .45LC, and couldn't be happier. :)

Edited to add: I gave up on .32 acp after one try. I can fart harder than that. :) I never really accepted the premise of .357 Sig (tried it twice, but...no) or the .45 GAP. I am wavering on .380...I hand load some rounds for it, and enjoy shooting my LCP. It is the smallest gun I have ever carried, but my faith in the .380 cartridge is...well, let's say "marginal", and leave it at that.

[Mikey Idaho]

Gave up on the .380, expensive and the 9mm ultra compacts are only slightly larger and have something like 40% more power. Plus I hated to shoot every .380 pocket pistol I tried or owned haha. Love my Beretta Nano.

Sent from my Verizon Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 2

[Rexster]

I had to start the police academy in 1983 with a 4" .357 revolver, and got away from .357 Magnum as soon as I could "qual" with my Model 629 after graduation. Why? I had been drinking the big-bore kool-aid. By the early 1990s, common sense prevailed, and I returned to the .357 Mag, and have not looked back. Some of the age-related deterioration of my right wrist, however, can certainly be attributed to the damage done by .44 Magnums, and perhaps the more sensible .41 Magnum, in the 1980s. Those big-bore magnums are now part of my past, unless perhaps I try .41 again in something like a single-action sixgun. S&W N-frames are really too big for my hands.

I am going to give up on the .40 S&W as soon as I can. It has very snappy recoil, especially when fired from a SIG P229, with its high bore axis, but I doubt it "stops" bad guys any better than the premium 9mm +P loads. My aging, aching wrist is getting tired of the abuse. My employer, a big-city PD, mandates .40 as the primary duty cartridge, so I will be carrying .40 for a while, 40 or so hours a week. A proposal to allow 9mm as an alternative duty cartridge, recommended by the normally-influential firearms training unit, died on the
chief's desk. Regardless, I am in the twilight of my LE career, and I can carry what I want off the clock. I have a 9mm conversion barrel for my duty SIG. I will be firing very little .40 in the future.

To be clear, I have nothing against big bores! I love .45 ACP, fired from all-steel 5" 1911 pistols, and also love .45 Colt, fired from hefty revolvers.

[OilyPablo]

I'm still acquiring new calibers, haven't given up on any.

I don't really like .40S&W, may as well be 10mm for me, but maybe wouldn't mind a .40 Shield. I do have a Sig P229 with .40 and .357Sig barrels, but I rarely use the .40 barrel.

I have a Sig P238, and will get a P938 because I'd rather carry a 9mm in that platform. Still .380ACP +P with hardcast will do the job in an accurate pistol. When I carry 9mm in my pocket currently I use a Kahr CM9 which is a fine small 9mm, but love carrying "SA" locked and cocked, Condition 1.

[mavracer]

Not sure I would say I gave up on .40S&W, so much as I never accepted it to begin with
Ditto and I wouldn't say I've totally given up on my 32s,380s and makarovs but I sure don't carry them much since I got my Kahr PM9 and I don't even own a 380 anymore. I'm even thinking about selling my Seecamp to fund a nice 1903 Colt.

[Robbins290]

yes. 9mm. I choose a glock 30sf. 10 rounds of 45 compared to 8 9mms.

and I don't have to double tap the ol 45:neener:

[wow6599]

.40S&W is no longer in the stable.


9mm-- insufficient stopping power.

Stopping power? Tell me more....... :rolleyes:

Or are you talking about "stopping power", like a .30-'06?

[C0untZer0]

The other day a 92 year old home owner shot a home invader with a 22.

It knocked the intruder backward and down a flight of stairs !!!

KA BLAM !

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1822678618001/

I thought the 9mm was OK, but I'm going to upgrade to the .22 going forward.

[The Lone Haranguer]

.357 Magnum, due to harsh blast, excessive recoil in smaller revolvers, and the fact that (other than a few "novelty" guns) it doesn't come in a semi-auto.

[ns66]

why people keep saying 380 is too expensive? you can get less than 24c per round buying online these days, that's not much more expensive than 9mm buying from walmart

[fastest45ever]

It used to be absurd, along with .44 Special. .380 more expensive then gold at the time.;)

[ns66]

yeah thats because it was not popular, now with more ppl ccw, 380 is way cheaper now and it's good ccw round

[JPCarvajal]

I prefer not to shoot 380 ACP and .40 S&W. I had no problems with either round, but prefer 9mm.

[-eaux-]

retired the .380acp to "safe-queen / occasional fun gun" after seeing its effects on various media, and considering it was my first ever handgun left to me by my dearly departed grandfather. immediately graduated myself to a Colt 1911 in .45acp and have never looked back. have shot just about all platforms/brands/calibers, and a .45acp 1911 just fits my hand like no other.

[Ex]

I use/shoot 9mm, .38spl, .357 Mag, .40, 10mm (oorah), and .45

Used to keep the .40 with gold dots in the night stand. Problem... waking up in the middle of the night in a dark room... I nor ayone else is going to be as accurate as fully awake and out on the range. .40, .357, 10mm all have "fair" potential to do damage across the street if I miss. Ya, I know... shot placement. But I'm not taking about being awake and alert and being able to see. 9mm, not enough.

I settled on the .38spl. this would be a range of 10-15 ft. .38spl with a huge JHP cavity is ideal for this IMO. 10mm? WAY too much for this scenario.

10mm for camping, you bet!!! .40 on the side for bike trips. 9mm for inexpensive target shooting.

Have I "abandonded" or "retired" any of them? Not a chance. Just refined application.

[orionengnr]

Brilliant, another 40S&W bashing thread.
Really? Are you that thin-skinned?
This is not a .40-bashing thread. It was an honest question and is getting honest responses.

If it so happens that a number of people are not crazy about the .40, there is no reason that you should take it personally (unless you are the patent holder on the .40 S&W cartridge). The .40 S&W is the most popular cartridge carried by US LEOs. That does not mean they are right...or wrong.

There are plenty of posts bashing .45acp, 9mm and .380, just to mention a few. Take a deep breath and get over it. :rolleyes:

[JEB]

unlike 99% of the posters on this thread i picked a .40 for my first carry gun, and my second, and my soon-to-be third. i just dont get what people's issue is with the recoil of a .40.

i have not given up on any caliber as of yet, but if i do, i think it will be the .380. its a fine caliber and all, i just think that with all the small 9's on the market these days, one of them might be a better option, or even a 38 snubby.

[Inebriated]

I already said .40, but I completely forgot about .380.

For the size differences, I'll take 9mm every time. The gap in gun size isn't as large as it used to be, between 9mm and .380.

[BBDartCA]

I started this thread with the 40 S&W in mind. Went from it to 9mm +p 147 because I'm far more consistent and quicker following up with 9mm than any 40 load. Plus my competitive shooting is with 9mm loaded similar to the above +p 147. An my pocket / BUG mouse gun is 9mm +p 147 . . . plus the Uzi is always not too far away, so common ammo is nice.

[Bikewer]

Many years ago, when I was with my first department, I had a Walther PP in .380. Nice little gun; slightly longer barrel than it's sexier cousin the PPK. I even had a Bond-type shoulder rig for it. (damned uncomfortable)
However... After several of our department members were involved in shootings with the .380, either as shooters or shootees...And very poor performance.
I watched a video of a fellow at a bank robbery who was shot in the heart by an off-duty officer and yet continued to fight for over a minute before finally collapsing.
A fatal wound but not a stopper. (the copper's pistol jammed after the one shot...)

So... I sold the PPK and bought a 2" .357. Then, of course, the price of the Walthers shot through the roof and I regretted selling it.

[coalman]

I started this thread with the 40 S&W in mind. Went from it to 9mm...

These threads almost always start with .40sw directly or indirectly in mind... or as covert/overt 9mm validation. I've observed the .40sw to be the "20-something's" caliber of choice at a time they think 9mm "too weak" and .45acp "too expensive" or "too low capacity". With age and experience, around the late 20s-30s (or 40s at the latest), this preference seems to change to 9mm and/or .45acp, with the .40sw falling by the wayside more so than any other service calibers for non-LE. That said, I believe the .40sw is a superior (to 9mm and .45acp) LE caliber in full sized belt guns. But, in any other application, not so much.

[k_dawg]

When I lived in South Florida, I often relied on a .32ACP or .380ACP. Light weight clothes + rabidly anti-carry police/public precluded larger carry often.

Now I have moved, and I can OC or CC. I have no need for a 'mouse' gun anymore.

[smallbore]

No.

[OilyPablo]

.50 bmg

[nickn10]

I have/ had 9mm Barettas, Glocks and Ruger LC9s. S&W, Glock, XD and Ruger Shield in 40 S&W, 1911s Sig 220, Ruger 97DC and S&W M&P in 45ACP. NONE had unmageable recoil. :banghead: The 2 worst handguns I owned for recoil were a Charter arms 44 special with Elmer Keith spec handloads and a Titanium snubbie 38 spec with +p loads. The S&W 40 Shield and the M&P 45 are pleasant and fun to shoot as well as being excellant self defense cartridges. If ammo cost is a factor RELOAD!, IT MAKES SHOOTING MORE FUN.

[JEEPX]

Tried the. 40S&W and .45acp. Both great calibers, I jut prefer the 9mm in any size pistol.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[powder]

No, have many SD/HD/D firearms in many calibers...they all shoot to stop the threat.

[Skribs]

These threads almost always start with .40sw directly or indirectly in mind... or as covert/overt 9mm validation. I've observed the .40sw to be the "20-something's" caliber of choice at a time they think 9mm "too weak" and .45acp "too expensive" or "too low capacity". With age and experience, around the late 20s-30s (or 40s at the latest), this preference seems to change to 9mm and/or .45acp, with the .40sw falling by the wayside more so than any other service calibers for non-LE. That said, I believe the .40sw is a superior (to 9mm and .45acp) LE caliber in full sized belt guns. But, in any other application, not so much.

Hey, I'm mid 20s and I made the switch from .40 to 9! Well, mentally. Still working on the hardware ;)

For me, it was more that I couldn't decide betwee .45 and 9, so I just split it down the middle. I figured if 15 rounds of 9 was good enough for the army, then 16 of .40 should be just fine for me (my first was XDm .40).

[mavracer]

.357 Magnum, due to harsh blast, excessive recoil in smaller revolvers, and the fact that (other than a few "novelty" guns) it doesn't come in a semi-auto.
I kinda have too, I still pack a 357 at times but I don't carry full power 357s in them.

[vba]

Believe it or not .357 Magnum. Couldn't get my mind around touching off one of these rounds in a self defense situation:eek:

I feel I'm better off with .45 acp, .45 Colt, .38 Special or non-plus P 9mm.

[TrueTexan]

Still using 45 acp but looking at 357 mag

[FMF Doc]

I guess you could say I gave up everything else when I consolidated to just 9mm for pistols. I don't carry .380 in the summer like I used to, I just found a better way to carry my 9mms. Shortly after that, I ended up trading my revolver to a friend, so that was the last "other" caliber I had. Now it is all 9 all the time!

[Skribs]

I guess you could say I gave up everything else when I consolidated to just 9mm for pistols. I don't carry .380 in the summer like I used to, I just found a better way to carry my 9mms. Shortly after that, I ended up trading my revolver to a friend, so that was the last "other" caliber I had. Now it is all 9 all the time!

I've pretty much done the same thing. Unless they make a Glock-style 5.7x28mm, all my handguns are going to be 9mm, and all my long guns 12-ga until I transition to 5.56.

If they do make a Glock-style 5.7x28mm, my compacts will be 9x19 (don't see compact 5.7 as viable) and my duty-size will be 5.7mm.

[threefortyduster]

Never given up on any. In reality, I'm becoming more tolerant of calibers. With age I'm starting to realize that any gun will get the job done for the most part and arguing about caliber annoys me just as much as arguing about trucks, ATVs, or anything else. They all have their merits and all have their demerits.

I do have to second the remarks about recoil...I don't find recoil to be too terrible on either my snubnose .357 (exception: lever evolution rounds) or my short barreled .40 compact. The recoil on those is no worse than the recoil on the Kimber Solo Carry 9mm I test fired this weekend.

[savanahsdad]

my hand guns are 22lr, .380 , 9X18 mak, 9X19, 357mag, 44mag, 45acp ,I had a .40SW but got rid of it , not because the round was bad , but because the gun was junk , it was a cops gun with a lawyer triger, :barf: still have the ammo and dies for it, so I guess I'll be getting another .40sw some day , :rolleyes:

[FMF Doc]

I've pretty much done the same thing. Unless they make a Glock-style 5.7x28mm, all my handguns are going to be 9mm, and all my long guns 12-ga until I transition to 5.56.

If they do make a Glock-style 5.7x28mm, my compacts will be 9x19 (don't see compact 5.7 as viable) and my duty-size will be 5.7mm.
If I could afford the platforms that shoot them, I would go 5.7 all the way. If I could afford to carry an FN FIVE-SEVEN, I could afford to find a way to conceal it for daily carry.

[The Man With No Name]

Gave up on 9mm. Seen too many times how ineffective it can be even in a +P+ loading. Gave up on 45acp. The only platform I've had that I really liked it in isn't suitable as my only defensive gun.

I have gone back to 40S&W. Controllable and effective.

[The Man With No Name]

These threads almost always start with .40sw directly or indirectly in mind... or as covert/overt 9mm validation. I've observed the .40sw to be the "20-something's" caliber of choice at a time they think 9mm "too weak" and .45acp "too expensive" or "too low capacity". With age and experience, around the late 20s-30s (or 40s at the latest), this preference seems to change to 9mm and/or .45acp, with the .40sw falling by the wayside more so than any other service calibers for non-LE. That said, I believe the .40sw is a superior (to 9mm and .45acp) LE caliber in full sized belt guns. But, in any other application, not so much.
The thing is I'm in my 40's. I'd compromise with the 9mm for reduced recoil and lower ammo costs but I am in a position where I am more likely than ever to have to use my handgun. I guess the decision of what to carry caliber wise can also be tempered by your life situation. That is why .40 is my minimum.

[Doc3402]

Years of rescue work showed me how ineffective a 9mm is so I switched to .40 S&W with a .357 magnum backup. I'm now giving serious thought to a .357 Sig, but I still have some doubts about feeding issues with the necked down cartridge. The research continues.

[StrawHat]

For a few years I carried a 357 Magnum, less than a decade. I switched to a 45 ACP revolver and have never gone back. Now, anything I need to do with a 36 caliber handgun can be accomplished withthe 38 Special.

[CraigC]

The gap in gun size isn't as large as it used to be, between 9mm and .380.
Actually it is. Compact 9mm's of today are comparable to yesterday's .380's. While .380's of today are comparable to yesterday's .32ACP's. Everything has gotten smaller.

[wow6599]

I'm now giving serious thought to a .357 Sig, but I still have some doubts about feeding issues with the necked down cartridge

You have it backwards. The design if the .355 Sig is conducive for reliable feeding.

[OrangePwrx9]

The full-power .357 always seemed to be way too much for SD, especially indoors. But I have several 357s, the round is versatile, and I reload. So it is a simple matter to come up with much tamer alternatives.

[easyg]

For SD I've given up all the calibers less than 9mm para.

So I'll stick to...
9mm Para
.40 S&W
.45 Auto
.357 Sig

The only revolver I have these days is a Ruger GP100 .357 magnum.
But I'm considering a .44 magnum.

[bergmen]

I see nobody has mentioned the .32 auto. My wife and I carried NAA Guardians for awhile. The ONLY good thing about that gun (for us) was that it was tiny. Everything else was against it:

1) Ammo expensive and hard to find.
2) Brutal recoil that is painful in a little gun.
3) Guardian is not reliable, jams often and kicks out the magazine on a regular basis.
4) Sights are a joke.
5) No bolt hold-open feature. Not acceptable to me.

We both went to S&W Airweights for revolvers and Glock 19's for autos. Not only are these two excellent SD handguns, they are a blast to shoot, lotsa fun. In addition I carry a Glock 36 and I have a Ruger GP100 listed on my LTC but have not carried it yet.

Dan

[gearhead]

My second handgun ever was a Beretta Cougar in .40S&W. I thought it would be the perfect compromise and I thought the weight of the Cougar would temper the snappy recoil a bit. What I was reminded of is that the definition of a compromise is that you give up a little something in two directions. I no longer have any .40S&W hardware, I'm 9mm, Makarov, and .45 for semi-autos.

[Rexster]

Believe it or not .357 Magnum. Couldn't get my mind around touching off one of these rounds in a self defense situation:eek:

I feel I'm better off with .45 acp, .45 Colt, .38 Special or non-plus P 9mm.
Actually, having touched off a .357 Mag during a defensive situation, in the early 1990s, is exactly why I do still favor it. I had intended my GP100, bought as a fun/utility gun, to serve as a brief interim duty handgun, between .45 autos, as I sold my "European" P220 and was going to buy a different .45 auto with a push-button mag release. The devastating effectiveness of that 125-grain bullet converted me back to carrying a revolver as "primary" on the job until 1997, and as back-up on the job, and often my primary off the clock, to this day.

Edited to insert: To be clear, however, I am not trying to convert anyone to the .357 Mag; just saying why it works for me.

Keep in mind that the substantial muzzle blast is affecting one's opponent, too, and far worse, in a close-range shooting, as is typical of most private-citizen shootings. Gun writer Darryl Bolke, an experienced West Coast LEO and firearms trainer, dubbed the SP101 as the "hand-held flash-bang," and expressed the opinion that one reason for the noted effectiveness of the .357 on the street is that nobody wants that thing going off in their face again.

A defender can train to be prepared for the blast effect. In my incident, I perceived no flash at all, and the perceived sound was just a small "pop." Keep in mind the premium JHP defensive ammo is loaded with flash-retardant in the powder. Cheaper practice ammo, and budget JHP, will have far more flash.

That being said, if I anticipate a fight at close quarters, indoors, I will, if there is the opportunity, select something other than a short-barrel .357 Mag for the task, such as a .45 ACP handgun or a long gun.

Someday, I may well be sufficiently feeble to set aside the .357, but my overall more skillful left hand is still healthy.

[Doc3402]

9mm. Too much real world experience shows me they are not that dependable on bio-targets. They look good in gel, but real world results are less impressive. I now carry .45 ACP or .40 S&W ball.

[speedway]

Got rid of:

380
40s&w
38 special.

[Doc3402]

Real world means 32 years of rescue experience seeing the effects of different calibers on human targets.

[Bobson]

I now carry .45 ACP or .40 S&W ball.Real world means 32 years of rescue experience seeing the effects of different calibers on human targets.
32 years of medical experience lead you to the conclusion that FMJ is superior to HP for self-defense?

[hardluk1]

I started CC'n a 38sp 27years ago now 125gr hp Now carry a 124gr 9mm +P. Guess I never went far. Never thought much about carry'n a bigger cartidge.

[Doc3402]

32 years of medical experience lead you to the conclusion that FMJ is superior to HP for self-defense?

Without a doubt in my mind unless you get to shoot naked people. Clothing has a tendency to clog and wrap the hollow point. The heavier the clothing is the less likely it is to have any expansion. In cases like that you want something bigger and heavier.

In human shooting victims there is one thing you can count on. If you don't hit them with a 'drop right there'* shot you will have a person physically capable of fighting. He may or may not be mentally willing, but the physical capability will be there for a lot longer than you want it to be there. Massive bleeding will help speed things up, and the best way to accomplish this is to provide an entry and exit wound... the bigger, the better.

For what it's worth, according to the ME in Orlando Trayvon Martin did not die immediately from the hole in his heart. Had he been armed he was capable of returning fire for at least one minute. That's with a slightly greater than 9mm hole through his right ventricle.

A month or two later there was another man in Orlando shot "multiple times in the torso" by a 9mm. That one got creamed by a car before he stopped fighting. He was running from the scene with multiple gunshot wounds.

* The only guaranteed drop right there shots in human physiology are those that either destroy the brain or destroy the spinal cord high in the cervical spine region. Anything lower may leave the aggressor with motor control of his arms which is far from desirable in an armed person you just shot.

[hardluk1]

Guys we have a new grand master of bullet knowldge. doc3402

Dependable or not I will use HP ammo that I know expand thru 1 or 4 layers of blue jeans material, speer gold dot and then fire as many round as need for a BG to disengage. Update your insurance there doc. At least have the common sense to use a something like federal guard dog ammo and not completely foolish. But you may have issues with it too.

[Doc3402]

I don't claim to be a bullet expert. I know what I have seen in both live patients and during dozens of autopsies. I made my caliber and design choices based on that. If you disagree that's fine with me. You mean nothing to me on a personal level so I don't care what you shoot.

[hardluk1]

Like wise

[Inebriated]

Guys we have a new grand master of bullet knowldge. doc3402

Instead of the sarcasm, you might could bring up some points of your own, and have a discussion.

[doc2rn]

When CCW was finally approved by the state of Kansas I was in college and money was tight, so I got a used S&W mod 10. I have switched many times to 45, 357 Sig (that one Kaboomed), 9mm, .380, and now I am right back to the same one I started with! Hard to beat the most copied firearm in the world.:rolleyes:

[Hunter125]

I don't understand the logic of not using hollowpoints because there's a chance they might not expand. There's a 100% chance a FMJ round won't. So if my hollow point doesn't expand at all, how is that any less effective than a FMJ? Doesn't a clogged hollowpoint that doesn't expand act exactly like a FMJ?

[R.W.Dale]

I don't understand the logic of not using hollowpoints because there's a chance they might not expand. There's a 100% chance a FMJ round won't. So if my hollow point doesn't expand at all, how is that any less effective than a FMJ? Doesn't a clogged hollowpoint that doesn't expand act exactly like a FMJ?

For me I have anti 4 legged considerations I account for too. And I decided I'm not limiting myself to 8 rounds of 45acp just to shoot hp's that will expand to .70 ish and penatrate 13" just like every other service round will do.

I carry a 45 for the same reason 45's have been carried for the past 150 years. To put a 45 Cal hole plumb through whatever of God's creations needs it at the time.

Another thing. In this and the other threads folks cite overpenatration concerns for using jhp. IMO there are many completely valid reasons to use them if they suit your needs, however they ARE NOT a replacement for or should be relied on as "insurance" against rule number 4




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

[Doc3402]

I don't understand the logic of not using hollowpoints because there's a chance they might not expand. There's a 100% chance a FMJ round won't. So if my hollow point doesn't expand at all, how is that any less effective than a FMJ? Doesn't a clogged hollowpoint that doesn't expand act exactly like a FMJ?
Yes, if it doesn't expand there is a pretty good chance that it will act as a FMJ round. At that point it has an excellent chance of creating the desired exit wound.

If you will look at some penetration tests (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs.htm) you will see that of the majority of rounds tested, the ones that were fired through denim for the most part had deeper penetration and less expansion than the ones that were not fired through clothing. There was some expansion, but not as much as bare gelatin.

Keep in mind these are gel tests and not of the same inconsistent densities that you see in bio-targets. The desired penetration was at least 12 inches, but in most people that is not enough to cause an exit wound. Depending on the size of the person, area hit, muscularity or lack of, fat content, and general hydration you can expect some wide variations in both penetration and expansion. Add in clothing and you have even more variables based on fit, layers, and tightness of the cloth weave.

Now, just for the heck of it, look at the two 9mm rounds tested through the same type firearm. Do you see the overall increase in penetration with the heavier rounds? Less expansion, but more penetration. So, do you want something that will reach the vital organ, or do you want something that is going to go through it? Remember, this is self defense ammo we're talking about.

Now go down to the .45 ACP Federal 230gr Hydra-Shok JHP. Note that none of the denim covered rounds were recovered, and also note the minimal expansion of the round in bare gel. This from a round going less than 900 FPS.

Less expansion gives better penetration, and that's what experience shows me is needed.

[LOW AND OUTSIDE]

Howdy
my go to fav auto is either a 38 super, or my trusty 357 sig, either one works very well.

Regards

[wwace]

40 S & W, just don't like shooting it so I will be selling my sub 2k and G35

[Doc3402]

I was just sitting her thinking while I had my morning cup, and something disturbing came to me. How many of you have considered that if you are going up against an assailant armed with a gun that there is a chance that the first thing you will hit will be the assailants weak side arm? Empty your firearm and go find a mirror. You'll see what I mean.

Whether it's a long gun or a handgun, and barring his use of some Hollywood gangsta hold, there is a chance that the assailant's supporting arm will be somewhere near that dead center torso aim point most of us were taught to use.

If you do hit his arm you have to live with the very real possibility that his arm injury may not take him out of the fight. Mentally he may be done, but from a physical standpoint there is nothing about his weak side arm injury that would keep him from emptying his firearm in your direction.

You still feeling good about those light weight hollow points? Keep in mind that if it isn't deflected by bone, your first one may arrive at the real target zone partially expended and partially expanded. You're not going to get the penetration you want. Meanwhile, somebody is shooting at you.

[Hunter2011]

Seems I will have to upgrade.... my biggest pistol is a 380 auto. I've read so many times where lives were saved by only the humble .22LR. Then I thought a 380 auto at more than twice the power should be good enough! Just show you how litle I know:)

Why exactly is a 380 not recomended for SD? not enough penetration or something else.

[OilyPablo]

I would NOT want to be shot with a Buffalo Bore +P .380ACP.

[bikerdoc]

I tend to agree with my fellow Doc. Let me be clear, he is a big D, real Doc, While
am a small d doc, - army medic, police officer and EMT, then RN in the ER.
Adout 80% of gun shot victims survive.
I have been shot, and have shot others. Obviously I did not die, but the bad guys did.

Gentlemen, it is all about shot placement.

I got hit with a 7.63x39 in the Nam, used a 45 FMJ (issued) to return fire.
Got hit with a 9mm on the job, used a 125 gr 357 JHP (issued) to return fire.
My shot placement was better than thiers.

I am old and retired now but I still try to keep up my skill level. Shoot what your best at get real good with it, in all kind of situation, and pray you never have to use it for real.

Please forgive the war story ramblings of a fossil reliving the glory days.

[Doc3402]

After years of taxpayer funded research the FBI has determined that in order for a gun/ammo combination to be good enough for their agents it needs to consistently penetrate to a depth of 12 inches or more. The .380 can't do that. The .22 LR can't do that, either. The operative word is "consistently" and shouldn't be taken lightly.

A firearm that fails to perform 50% of the time would be quickly taken out of consideration for a self defense weapon, so why not do the same for a cartridge? If you'll follow the link you will see the .380 JHP doesn't perform anywhere near the FBI penetration requirements.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs.htm"]http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs.htm

This does not mean that a person shot with a .380 won't die, and it doesn't mean a .380 won't take the fight out of an aggressor. What it implies is that as a defensive cartridge the .380 JHP is not to be depended on. Sadly they did not test a FMJ round. I would be interested in knowing if it met the criteria.

With all that said there is something else to be considered. At times a loud bang and a muzzle flash will be enough to take the fight out of an aggressor and a .380 meets these requirements. I know if somebody was shooting at me the first thing I would be looking for is a place to hide or a way to leave. It's when there is no place to hide and no way to leave that your firearm becomes important. At that point you will be saddened that you didn't find a way to conceal carry a howitzer.

Remember, a .380 on the hip beats a .44 magnum in the dresser drawer.

[wildcatter109]

There is no way I would ever debate what is good for carry! for me it's a 1911 one shot and I have total control of any situation! PERIOD! I carry a DW Valor V-BOB, Ranger T 230 grn. ammo! if I take one shot I have total control of any Self Defense situation! dead or anywhere in the chest and shoulder area, and the perp is in my control. With lesser calibers there can be doubt with less than a perfect shot. the 45 acp has worked for years, and most of our military that are issued 9mm high capacities, are furnishing there own 1911 over the issued 9mm, for good reason!
I have never in 58 years thought about it, for me there is no debate, and this will be the last 1911 I ever carry, it has over 1600 rounds thru it and never a hickup! I have had it to Dave severns for a
1)tuned ejector makes for easy brass recovery when practicing, weekly!
2)Stainless was given the Hardhat Treatment, - most durable finish ever available!
3)Tactical Dehorn, - for comfortabl carry with no chance of hangups on clothing and such
4)Flush target Crown w/fitted HD Bushing, - accuracy out to 100 yards is fabulous!
All of this after a year and nearly 1500 rounds of zero fail to feeds, and yes I have close to 2K in it, but I am trusting my life to it as it is carried daily for a minimum of 10 -12 hours, and I always thought it was so irresponsible to hear people state that you don't want to put a lot of money in a carry gun, as they will confiscate it if you ever shoot someone with it. I can assure if I ever have to shoot someone I could care less how much money I had in it, I want to know what I carry will take control of any situation with one shot! and never fail! I also want to be able to make several controlled shots as quickly as I can pull the trigger, in the remote chance someone would ever encounter a need to defend themselves from more than one perp. The 1911 will allow that, and I really think those kind of encounters are avoidable, I don't put myself in a position for that to be a risk, but just in case, I have 9 of the most proven self defense rounds available ready, and a weapon that is as close to 100% reliable as is available. That is just my humble P.O.

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/saumbi/_MG_0085.jpg

and if they would surprise me and take that from me, well at least its a 45acp. What can I say, my mind has always been maid up!! 45acp!!!! I didn't even know there was ever any other caliber????? :neener:
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/saumbi/_MG_5260.jpg

[jp3]

.40

[David White]

There is no way I would ever debate what is good for carry! for me it's a 1911 one shot and I have total control of any situation! PERIOD! I carry a DW Valor V-BOB, Ranger T 230 grn. ammo! if I take one shot I have total control of any Self Defense situation! dead or anywhere in the chest and shoulder area, and the perp is in my control. With lesser calibers there can be doubt with less than a perfect shot. the 45 acp has worked for years, and most of our military that are issued 9mm high capacities, are furnishing there own 1911 over the issued 9mm, for good reason!
I have never in 58 years thought about it, for me there is no debate, and this will be the last 1911 I ever carry, it has over 1600 rounds thru it and never a hickup! I have had it to Dave severns for a
1)tuned ejector makes for easy brass recovery when practicing, weekly!
2)Stainless was given the Hardhat Treatment, - most durable finish ever available!
3)Tactical Dehorn, - for comfortabl carry with no chance of hangups on clothing and such
4)Flush target Crown w/fitted HD Bushing, - accuracy out to 100 yards is fabulous!
All of this after a year and nearly 1500 rounds of zero fail to feeds, and yes I have close to 2K in it, but I am trusting my life to it as it is carried daily for a minimum of 10 -12 hours, and I always thought it was so irresponsible to hear people state that you don't want to put a lot of money in a carry gun, as they will confiscate it if you ever shoot someone with it. I can assure if I ever have to shoot someone I could care less how much money I had in it, I want to know what I carry will take control of any situation with one shot! and never fail! I also want to be able to make several controlled shots as quickly as I can pull the trigger, in the remote chance someone would ever encounter a need to defend themselves from more than one perp. The 1911 will allow that, and I really think those kind of encounters are avoidable, I don't put myself in a position for that to be a risk, but just in case, I have 9 of the most proven self defense rounds available ready, and a weapon that is as close to 100% reliable as is available. That is just my humble P.O.

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/saumbi/_MG_0085.jpg

and if they would surprise me and take that from me, well at least its a 45acp. What can I say, my mind has always been maid up!! 45acp!!!! I didn't even know there was ever any other caliber????? :neener:
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/saumbi/_MG_5260.jpg


Uuumm..... OK... One shot... Total control...

You did say "One shot" correct?

Uuum .... OK... Total control huh?

[jp3]

Yeah right... like you can predict / guarantee the outcome of a stressful shooting situation. [Rolleyes]

[wildcatter109]

Maybe you haven't been there before. I have, it wasn't a guess! with a little luck, you'll never know for sure!

[tomrkba]

I gave up 380 Auto and have come back to it. The reason is guns are very, very small and the cartridge is very shootable in these platforms.

I have given up on 40 S&W. It is not better than 9x19mm or 45 ACP and has more recoil.

[jp3]

So wildcatter, did you kill him clean on the first shot?

[wildcatter109]

I have had 2 encounters in the past several years where I was assaulted with a firearm, both times the idiot that presented the handgun at point blank range and had me dead to right, but with calm thinking and training, the tables were quickly turned, the one is in jail and the other tried to press charges as I was on his property when the incident took place and in his embarrassment tried to have me arrested, till he found out that when you draw a gun on someone that hasn't threatened your life, you should be prepared to be put in the same position, staring down a barrel of someone who is better trained than you,as he did, and retreat to his vehicle! If he would have pressed the issue I could have had him arrested for threatening me with a gun (assault with a deadly weapon) when there was no imminent threat to his life, that's the law here in Ohio, as I was trying to leave. I seen what was about to happen and part of being in a moment of truth is knowing how to put yourself in a position of being in charge of the situation, as it happens. I assure you, you will have a much better opportunity of controlling a situation when you can inflict 230 grains of half inch diameter hunks of lead into your perp, rather than with 115 grains at less than 3/8" hunks of lead! Has to do with physics, very elementary really! The point is having enough self control and training to take charge of a situation in the moment of stress,that should come before there is an opportunity for them to discharge their weapon, when you have been there a couple times you will understand! As I said from experience, you don't want to be there, it ain't no fun!

[David White]

Maybe you haven't been there before. I have, it wasn't a guess! with a little luck, you'll never know for sure!

Been there done that and I know better than to make a claim such as yours.

[hardluk1]

Doc3402 The one prime reason to keep fireing rounds at the center of mass till you no longer have a threat. You can just as easily hit BGs firearm or gun hand too. First two or three rounds may hit nothing vital but untill a handgun hits the ground or the treat is no longer just that, keep shooting. Light bullet or heavy you better keep shooting as long as a target has a firearm faceing you.

What I also see in those gel test is nothing new. Some HP bullets work better than others so its up to each person to find the best for there needs.

I also see that some hp bullets no matter if it goes thru jeans or not you get expansion and jagged edges. You don't get that from a fmj bore hole that offers no extra anything if no bone is hit except a leaker.

It just happens that the round I have carried for some years now is the same georgia arms 124gr +P GD shown in the info you supplied. With that round I can still go thru blue jeans a end up with ragged 1/2" + to 5/8"+ expanded hp that still may pass thru the target and offer some tissue shock wave that differs from how a fmj acts in gel or tissue. I see no + for fmj ammo except for practice/fun

[Doc3402]

Doc3402 The one prime reason to keep fireing rounds at the center of mass till you no longer have a threat. You can just as easily hit BGs firearm or gun hand too. First two or three rounds may hit nothing vital but untill a handgun hits the ground or the treat is no longer just that, keep shooting. Light bullet or heavy you better keep shooting as long as a target has a firearm faceing you.

What I also see in those gel test is nothing new. Some HP bullets work better than others so its up to each person to find the best for there needs.

I also see that some hp bullets no matter if it goes thru jeans or not you get expansion and jagged edges. You don't get that from a fmj bore hole that offers no extra anything if no bone is hit except a leaker.

It just happens that the round I have carried for some years now is the same georgia arms 124gr +P GD shown in the info you supplied. With that round I can still go thru blue jeans a end up with ragged 1/2" + to 5/8"+ expanded hp that still may pass thru the target and offer some tissue shock wave that differs from how a fmj acts in gel or tissue. I see no + for fmj ammo except for practice/fun
I understand what you are saying in your first paragraph, but do you really want to count on luck? Remember, if you are shooting at him, he will probably be shooting at you. Do want to need a half dozen rounds to stop your target or do you want to make the first one or two count?

Shock wave. Hmm. How can I put this? If you are aiming for the torso the majority of organ space in that region probably won't produce a shock wave, and even if it does the odds are against it being in an organ that will take your opponent out of the fight. It may kill him in an hour, a day, or a week, but do you really want to wait that long to end the fight?

Penetration: The only sure way to take your opponent out of the fight before he kills you is to ruin his spinal cord, the higher the better. If your opponent is shooting at you you will be shooting front to rear or from the side. You will have a lot more tissue to penetrate than you think. True, if you shoot him in the back a .380 or a 9mm has more than enough penetration to sever his spinal cord. Of course the jury may not see things your way when you are brought to trial for murder.

I'm glad you have confidence in your weapon of choice, and I really do wish you well if you ever need to use it, but after 3 decades of dealing with gunshot wounds I have made my decision based on what I have seen on the coroners table. Nothing is going to change my mind.

[Certaindeaf]

The military gave up on the .45.

[Doc3402]

The military gave up on the .45.
Not yet they haven't. Special Ops still use them as well as the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team.

[falnovice]

The one shot arguement always confuses me.
Other than a brain or spinal shot nothing is going to drop a BG instantly.
So my question is this, are you going to pause and observe the target after every shot?
Wait and see if the round does the job?
Wait and see if they stop violent action before firing another shot?
Fire a second shot and then begin the process all over again?

Or are you going to shoot until the BG drops?

My personal philosophy is to engage as rapidly and accurately as possible until the threat ceases. I wouldn't know if my first round was a heart shot because I would have already be triggering the second, third and fourth shot. Even a first round spinal shot would probably be a multi round shoot as I expect to fire off at least a couple more rounds before the brain catches up with the fact that the BG is collapsing.

[Doc3402]

Shooting until he drops is not the phrase I would use. Shoot until he stops suits me better.

My personal philosophy is to engage as rapidly and accurately as possible until the threat ceases.

And it's a good philosophy, but keep in mind that returning fire at your opponent and missing may still take the fight out of him. Most of the punks that prey on other people are cowards and bullies. If you can show that you're not going to take their crap it may be enough to end things right there. If that doesn't happen, by all means continue until the threat is over.

[David White]

After years of taxpayer funded research the FBI has determined that in order for a gun/ammo combination to be good enough for their agents it needs to consistently penetrate to a depth of 12 inches or more. The .380 can't do that.

You are missing out on one key element of that FBI statement.
It requires 12 inches or more of penetration AFTER defeating barriers.
Barriers such as sheet metal, auto glass, drywall etc.

As for your other statement, a .380 FMJ will penetrate 26 inches of ballistic gel. If penetration is what you want, a FMJ .380 will go deep.

[Doc3402]

I didn't see a FMJ in .380 tested on the page I linked to, but if you have some more tests on another page I would love to see them. Some of the ammo on my linked page isn't available around here so I may be able to find test results on ammo available locally. Thanks

[CountGlockulla]

Pretty much everything except 9mm.

One shot stopping power is a myth. A .45 is not big enough to make up for a bad shot and a good shot with a 9mm is just as good as any other modern defensive load in any other caliber.

[jimbo555]

I just gave up on 25acp and 22lr for defense use.I just bought a sig p238 to replace a walther tph and baby browning for backup duty.

[MCgunner]

I gave up on .380 when I got my Kel Tec 9 16 years ago. I pocket the 9 just as easily in a front pocket, see no need for the .380. I still have it as a go to if I need it. I didn't sell it. The 9 makes twice the energy with a bigger bullet, is more accurate, and is easier to shoot.

[hardluk1]

Doc It looks like your biggest problem here is you read and absorb everthing but seem to have little or no real world time killing anything . You know some hunting to see how different bullets calibersl designs really work would help. You can not get a full understanding unless you have seen first hand how different bullets types work on live game. For some of us a fmj is a play, practice and fun round only. A flat tip bullet design in a bhn level of 5 to 10 acts very different in tissue compaired to one of 20. Would you say most BG use mostly fmj bullets ? Man it does not matter if its a 45 or 9mm with fmj. You better hit something of interest. My 9mm at better than 1180fps with a 124gr GD hp even passing thru 4 layers of blue jeans tends to average with better damage than a 45 fmj that some use. Now slow that bullet down from 1180 to 1225fps that a 3 1/2" to 4" barrel can make and see what it will do to a standard pressure 9mm at 1000fps in a short barrel and it will not work as well. Guys that go out and buy the bargain basement hp ammo in caliber?? may not open under the best of conditions even in gel and not act much better than a fmj like with a pmc cheap hp stuff. You may see and fix 25 years of bullet caused trama damage but with out knowing the bullet brand and bullet type, how fast it was moveing with it hit it really does not mean much.

fbi test!! What the FBI needs for a bullet design has little to do with what makes a great defence bullet. What do you you shoot, a 45acp. Ever tried flat tipped low hardness lead?? How well do you think a 45acp 225gr pure lead with a flat tip will do in a fbi test at 850fps? Not very good. Now Do you think it will do to a BG with a hoody and a t-shirt on. This is a very diedly combo. But the fbi would never think of useing it. You should see what that same load can do to a deer out of a 45 at only 850fps at 25yards. Very diedly.

Now the 380 would not be a top choice for me but when in shorts and t-shirt, better than a pocket full of rocks. Just pick the best bullet for the job. Don't buy cost wise.

[Certaindeaf]

^Good post. I think many consider/use fmj because the military uses it (golly, it's gotta be good!), it makes about the same holes in paper, it's cheap and they are ignorant.
For heavens sake people, just pop a measly rabbit or so with a good SWC or HP and then some harball. The differences are so marked you won't fail but see the folly of using ball. The same thing happens to the larger creatures.

[R.W.Dale]

^Good post. I think many consider/use fmj because the military uses it (golly, it's gotta be good!), it makes about the same holes in paper, it's cheap and they are ignorant.
For heavens sake people, just pop a measly rabbit or so with a good SWC or HP and then some harball. The differences are so marked you won't fail but see the folly of using ball. The same thing happens to the larger creatures.

Actually since your bent on this goofy rabbits = self defense test media I was at the range the other day when a cotton tail hopped out of the bushes next to my target stand.

I put a 115 g fmj through him and he was dead quick enough to still be twitching as I skinned him out.

I also put two TWO 124g +p gold dots through a funny acting skunk a feew weeks ago. I recovered one perfectly expanded gold dot from laying on the hard dirt. The skunk on the other hand left the scene.

A few years back I expended an entire box of cor bon +p 90g jhp's for 380 auto shooting armidillos. Not one single bullet exited or stopped one of the panzerlizards from making it to their burrow to die.

The moral of the story. With handguns the only thing that really matters is what you hit and to believe otherwise is actually funny deluded pathetic bit.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

[Certaindeaf]

Well there you go.

[charlie fox]

Not so much given up on any particular caliber, just the hype that goes along with them. I've carried the 9mm, .40 and .45 over the last 30 years and have found that it's hits that matter. When I went back to carrying a gun for myself I chose the 9mm; I can shoot it straight and fast. I couldn't do that quite as well with either of the other calibers. These days I find myself choosing between my Glock 19 and my S&W Model 10 and I don't feel undergunned with either of them.

[easyg]

The moral of the story. With handguns the only thing that really matters is what you hit and to believe otherwise is actually funny deluded pathetic bit.
No, this is just not true.

This notion is counter to everything mankind has learned about ballistics over the centuries, which is this:

Not all rounds perform equally well at quickly stopping aggressive humans.

To believe otherwise is seriously deluded and pathetic.

[R.W.Dale]

No, this is just not true.

This notion is counter to everything mankind has learned about ballistics over the centuries, which is this:

Not all rounds perform equally well at quickly stopping aggressive humans.

To believe otherwise is seriously deluded and pathetic.

It may not be that fun to discuss and not have much hype but its still absolutely true.

A jhp or fmj through the nervous system or a major blood carrying organ will be resoably effective.

A fmj or jhp through the thigh is not going to yield outstanding results.

Yes bullets have improved but to to the point they magically make bad shot placement good.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

[Buzznrose]

Looking at it from the other side of the BARREL, I'd not want to be shot by any caliber, from .22 up, so I figure any gun you'd carry is better than any gun in the safe.

I normally carry a Glock 26 9MM because I like the size and capacity and I shoot it pretty well, which is what makes the decision easy for me. But I am also a .40 SW fan.

[easyg]

Looking at it from the other side of the BARREL, I'd not want to be shot by any caliber, from .22 up, so I figure any gun you'd carry is better than any gun in the safe.
Again looking at it from the other side of the barrel....

If you had to be shot with a handgun, but you could choose the caliber and load to be shot with, what would you choose?


Yeah, we all know that handguns aren't magic death rays.
But certain calibers do perform better than other calibers when it comes to quickly stopping aggressive humans.
Even a small increase in my favor is worth exploiting in my opinion.
Handguns already suck at stopping threats...why choose a caliber than will make them suck even more?

[Mac Attack]

I shot .38 Super primarily for over 10 years. Its a great round but is expensive to shooy. Its because of my Super that I started reloading. After I stopped competing my series 70 Colt 1911 in .38 Super has been regulated to the safe.

[Mr.510]

I can't really say that I 'gave up' on .380 as I still have the PPK/S that I carried daily for 17 years... and once in a great while I'll carry it as a backup to the XD45C that I now carry as my primary. I would still carry the PPK/S as a 'tuxedo gun' if I ever wore a tux or suit again but I can't see it ever going back into daily service.

At the time I bought my XD I was starting to think I wanted a carry weapon with more power but I trained quite a bit and was of the "shot placement is everything" mindset. Then a really big kitty (cougar) started wondering through my yard on a regular basis. That pretty well made the decision for me and I've carried the same loads (HST +P) that the local game warden does ever since. :)

[Doc3402]

Doc It looks like your biggest problem here is you read and absorb everthing but seem to have little or no real world time killing anything .

If you're talking to me, this isn't about reading. This is about 32 years of seeing what went to the ER and what went to the coroner. This is about actual first hand experience with human gunshot victims. This is about actually seeing the effects of different calibers and bullet configurations both inside and outside of the body. This is about having seen people with multiple gunshot wounds to the torso walk to the truck and people with a single gunshot wound to the torso laying in their living room with a sheet over their face. I know what consistently works, and I know what doesn't.

You know some hunting to see how different bullets calibersl designs really work would help. You can not get a full understanding unless you have seen first hand how different bullets types work on live game.

I have seen first hand how different bullet types work on the only live game that is relevant to this thread. Haven't you been reading?

If you can show me a direct correlation between handgun rounds at handgun velocities fired out of self defense handguns, and hunting rounds fired out of longer barreled handguns or rifles I'm listening.

Until then, shoot what you want. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. Just don't criticize me when I tell you what my choices are and why. I have chosen .40 S&W ball and .45 ACP ball for a very good reason. My decision is based on the type of target I will face in an SD confrontation, and what I need to happen to that target to end the confrontation.

[Doc3402]

If you had to be shot with a handgun, but you could choose the caliber and load to be shot with, what would you choose?

.38 Special out of a two inch barrel.

[Hunter2011]

No!:) there are better options. .22 loaded with shotcells will be my first choice if I have a say in it:D

Just a question to you, with obvious experience in the field. Lets take a .40S&W. Does the bullet when its a HP always stay in the person shot, or does it always penetrate fully? If not do you have any kind of persentages?

[mavracer]

Well I did it I sold my Seecamp and bought a nice 1903 Colt pocket hammerless, so I guess I've given up on everything smaller than 38+p or 9mm for EDC.

[Certaindeaf]

.38 Special out of a two inch barrel.
Yea, a 158 grain Keith SWC at 1,000+fps will just make a flesh wound.

[R.W.Dale]

Yea, a 158 grain Keith SWC at 650+fps will just make a flesh wound.


There I fixed it for you





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[Certaindeaf]

There I fixed it for you
Erm no.

Here's a link to the good old Buffalo Bore specs/site.
It's for pedestrians/non-reloaders. Handloaders have been making these for decades for like five cents a pop.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=291

[R.W.Dale]

I just new before I even clicked submit that a link to BB's non saami overloads would get posted.

That's just what folks do nowadays to try to represent a cartridge as doing something it can't

Here's what 38 does with non clarktastic loads

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html

Note that in a 2" revolver bbl 110 g bullets dont even make 1000




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[Certaindeaf]

That thinking will really get you down the road far. Like I said.

[R.W.Dale]

That thinking will really get you down the road far. Like I said.

OK then find three examples of loads within SAAMI 18k psi that represent what a 158 cast bullet does for velocity from a 2" barrel.

Here ill even make it really easy for you

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/snubby_ballistics.htm



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[Doc3402]

Hunter2011

Good call on the shotshell 22. I didn't even consider it, but that is a great choice.

To answer your question on the .40 S&W I can't say it won't leave an exit wound on a torso hit, but of the dozen or so I've seen shot with the .40 JHP I haven't seen one. As a side note, none of them were dead, but most of them were unconscious.

[Certaindeaf]

^Dale,
You're funny. I just provided you a link to over the counter +P's that are known to do what professed.

[R.W.Dale]

^Dale,
You're funny. I just provided you a link to over the counter +P's that are known to do what professed.

You provided a link to ONE load obviously loaded beyond 18k psi that still doesn't make the 1100+ from a 2" bbl you cited

Like I said find three examples and come back.




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[Certaindeaf]

You provided a link to ONE load obviously loaded beyond 18k psi that still doesn't make the 1100+ from a 2" bbl you cited

Like I said find three examples and come back.




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Why on earth why would I want to do that? It certainly seems an odd request.

[R.W.Dale]

Why on earth why would I want to do that? It certainly seems an odd request.

You make the supposition so its up to you to support it with evidence of it being factual.

You just know that without Buffalo bore, double tap or similar boutique overloads you wont find it



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[Certaindeaf]

You make the supposition so its up to you to support it with evidence of it being factual.
Supposition of what? You can buy them if you have a few dollars to your name.

[Doc3402]

Yea, a 158 grain Keith SWC at 1,000+fps will just make a flesh wound.
Umm, would that be considered a +P or +P+ load? Did I mention either one of those? Refresh your memory and read my post again. My statement stands.

[Certaindeaf]

Umm, would that be considered a +P or +P+ load? Did I mention either one of those? Refresh your memory and read my post again. My statement stands.
Those +P .38's are "safe to shoot in all .38 Specials.. yada".
You said .38 Special. .38 Special is a revolver, don't you know.
If you've got an old clunker, you might stick to lighter loads.

[Doc3402]

Those +P .38's are "safe to shoot in all .38 Specials.. yada".
You said .38 Special. .38 Special is a revolver, don't you know.
If you've got an old clunker, you might stick to lighter loads.
The .38 Special is a revolver? Wow. I can shoot a revolver through my .357 Magnum? Do I have to take the grips off first?

[Certaindeaf]

The .38 Special is a revolver? Wow. I can shoot a revolver through my .357 Magnum? Do I have to take the grips off first?
Well golly, you got me there!

[Nuclear]

40 S&W - too snappy a recoil, I can shoot 9mm, 45 ACP and 38 Super better. Why bother?

[R.W.Dale]

Simple you don't see a bullet pass through and hit the dirt.

Wich you'd see shooting at the angles I was at. Plus that close in (dillos are dumb) you can actually see how a bullet splits em open a little bit like milk jugs full of water

Incidently I also learned that a 410 GA shotgun with 8's is absolutely bang flop flop flop drt.

A 22 handgun with aguila 60G sss kills em really dead too


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[Kahr33556]

I keep going back to my 380 LCP because of the size and I can alway's carry