Facial Wounds


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Tired_and_hungry
September 7, 2012, 02:09 PM
At my most recent range trip with my new Beretta Mod 84 .380auto, I was practicing for the eventuality of dealing with a body armor wearing assailent and i noticed that at a range of 8 yards, I could draw and fire 3 rounds in quick succession but that my rounds mostly impacted where the lower area of the face would be on the target. Hence, my question to those of you with medical training (whether military or civilian based) is.....

What would be the terminal ballistics effect of a 95gr .380acp fmj round travelling at 870ft/s if it squarely impacted an assailent's:

1)Nose?
2)Cheek bones?
3)Mouth?
4)jaw line?

How different would the results be if a easily expanding hollow point like the Winchester silvertip were used? Can one shot to the lower face be expected to produce a "one shot stop"?

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KenW.
September 7, 2012, 02:11 PM
I've been trained in a couple of methods;

Target the mouth. The brain stem is a preferred target and it is behind the back of the moth
and
Occular cavity. Shoot through the eye socket where there is little to no bone to effect your projectile.

MachIVshooter
September 7, 2012, 02:19 PM
What would be the terminal ballistics effect of a 95gr .380acp fmj round travelling at 870ft/s if it squarely impacted an assailent's:

1)Nose?

Good chance it would enter the cranial cavity and cause CNS damage

2)Cheek bones?

Depends on the angle, but cheek bones aren't particularly heavy. A friend of mine took a .22 LR out of a 3" barrel to his left cheek, the bullet ended up against the back of his skull. He survived after several surgeries, 2 weeks in the ICU and 4 months in Craig Hospital, but still has some serious issues with memory & temper. That was 17 years ago.

3)Mouth?

Open mouth? Probably penetrate right through to the brain stem. Closed? Teeth are pretty hard, would definitely serve to slow and/or deflect the bullet some.

4)jaw line?

Jaw bones have deflected much more substantial rounds than the .380. I would expect it to fracture the jaw, but probably not be a lethal wound. Incapacitating? Depends on the assailant, but I'd bet most would cease their attack.

Any bullet to any part of the face is serious trauma, even if it doesn't enter the cranial cavity. If you can score hits there during an attack, do so.

Odd Job
September 7, 2012, 06:14 PM
1)Nose?

Never seen a gunshot nose. Either they are very rare or I have extremely bad luck, because I have seen all other body parts hit, but no nose.

2)Cheek bones?

These have the capacity to deflect bullets, seen it several times. But, there is no guarantee on any specific behaviour because I have seen bullets go straight through also. By cheek bone I mean the malar bone surface.

3)Mouth?

A lot of variation depending on teeth, and whether the mouth is open or closed. At this point, the trajectory is more likely to involve the upper cervical spine instead of the brain, even if the bullet passes straight through the teeth.

4)jaw line?

This is the least valuable target and there can be a lot of deflection if the round hits teeth because you have the possibility of having several teeth in the way. If the round just hits mandible you have to hope it also involves a carotid artery or if it is central, the upper cervical spine otherwise it is not likely to be an incapacitating shot. Even if the artery is hit it will take time to make the guy stop involuntarily.

The face presents opportunity for unexpected deflection of bullets.

HDCamel
September 7, 2012, 07:51 PM
I'm pretty sure having my teeth shot out would have me writhing in pain.
If nothing else, it would probably give you time to shoot them again.

MedWheeler
September 7, 2012, 10:12 PM
I'm pretty sure that anyone shot in the face is going to stop, at least momentarily, doing whatever he was doing to get himself shot. Once he does, I doubt either of us will take time to analyze the trauma before executing our next move. My money is on that one, or both, of us will flee the situation.
So-called "one-shot stops" are an abstract term at best. If you hit someone in the bicep with a .25 and he stops threatening, is that considered a "one-shot stop"? That's all the "stop" I need; anything else is just extra.

Texan Scott
September 7, 2012, 10:45 PM
Shoot 'em in the molars with an ice bullet, tinfoil jacketed... it'd stop me in my tracks. You'd be amazed what a skull will deflect. I served with a lady whose husband's girlfriend shot him twice in the head without penetrating the skull... my BIL double tapped a pig with. 380 HP without penetrating the skull. Best advice is to empty the magazine into his face and see what THAT does.

481
September 7, 2012, 11:04 PM
Can one shot to the lower face be expected to produce a "one shot stop"?

Probably be pretty effective, but there are no guarantees.

Sport45
September 7, 2012, 11:32 PM
Try aiming a bit higher.

olderguns
September 8, 2012, 05:49 AM
Texan scott +1

KenW.
September 8, 2012, 10:39 AM
Eventuality of an armored assualt?

I don't believe it is eventually going to happen to everyone. It MAY, but its not likely unless you are an armored car employee. Its not bad to practice the head shot, but don't get too hung up over it.

Even we cops are trained to get two into the center of mass, evaluate, then follow with one to the head if necessary. The head is generally moving; bobbing and weaving makes for a poor target. You also have a high probability of deflection from the skull; that's why so many people who attempt suicide often survive. Small caliber projectiles will glance off the skull pretty often.

I investigated one recently where a guy shot himself with a .45ACP (hardball) through the bottom of the jaw. It exited the top of the skull. Went perfectly between the hemispheres of the brain and he's recovering nicely.

Head shots are not gaurentees. They don't "all fall with ball".

brickeyee
September 8, 2012, 01:16 PM
You are way over thinking this.

Aim for the biggest section of head you can see.

It is not like things are going to be nice and static like a square range.

MachIVshooter
September 8, 2012, 02:07 PM
You are way over thinking this.

I don't think he's asking so much for a specific place to aim on the face, but curious about what to expect with a hit in these particular areas.

brickeyee
September 8, 2012, 02:19 PM
curious about what to expect with a hit in these particular areas.



Bleeding if the bullet penetrates.

Everything else is pure speculation and guess work since the trajectory is unknown ahead of time.


It is like asking what will happen if you are shot in the chest.

Anything from 'ouch' to 'dropping like a stone' depending on what is actually struck.

scaatylobo
September 8, 2012, 03:06 PM
Shoot till end of threat is my teaching and what I taught.

A "double tap" is NO garranttee of a stop.

My last gun shot call as LEO was a self inflicted contact wound to the lower jaw with an AR - 15,ball ammo.

the wackadoodle lost his lower jaw up to his eyes and all in between.

He was still able to WALK OUT of the house with assistance of the EMT and fireman.

I could see him capable of picking up his rifle and trying to finish the job.

SO, in conclusion I see that shooting till the THREAT IS OVER - and you are positive you are safe is the best route to take.

barnbwt
September 8, 2012, 05:25 PM
"I'll bet his eyes are as gooey as the next guy's..."
-Agent Cardholder, after a torso shot fails to penetrate :)

If you're shooting a .380 against a dude in body armor, there's hardly any other choice for a soft target than the face/head area. Just remember, you're limiting yourself to a target area way smaller than the torso, which enough people have a hard time hitting anyway.

If humans are anything like other primates, the skull is more reinforced in the jaw, and cheek regions (our bite force is +300lbs IIRC). Seems like the weakest areas are between the cheekbones and brow, and through the teeth.

Yeah, teeth are hard, but they're also pretty thin and brittle. They won't stop a bullet unless it's traveling down multiple molars, in which case, Bad Guy's got a really bad injury anyway). The face is always a favorite target in hand-to-hand, since it's fairly fragile, and contains a lot of sensitive and important equipment. I seem to recall facial wounds were preferred in old-school rapier fencing since they hurt more and interfered in continued fighting ability.

TCB

orionengnr
September 8, 2012, 10:36 PM
If you are talking about a two-way exchange of fire, stop and take a look at one of those targets that portray someone with a handgun aiming directly at you.

What do you notice?

Okay, I'll help. A good portion of his face is hidden behind his two arms/hands extended forward. His gun is (most likely) lined up with one of his eyes, effectively providing a barrier to his head. Further, his head is likely cocked forward, toward the sights.

How much skull/face is available to you? And how much of what you can see is perpendicular to your shots (allowing for a reasonable chance of penetrating the bone instead of being deflected by iit)?

Don't forget, he is shooting at you at this same time....

Bottom line...if you have a .380 and he is wearing body armor, you had best either be a really good shot, or be exceptionally lucky.

This might call for the Modified Mozambique Chicken Drill: two to COM, one to the head, throw the dang .380 at him and run like your life depends on it. :)

Just my .02 worth.

MrDig
September 9, 2012, 12:08 AM
The point of Aim is referred to as the "Vermilion" Zone and it forms a triangle from the outer edges of the eye brows to the bottom of the nose.
This will impact and damage the central nervous system and be a no questions stop. The target will drop like a stone.
Try two shots center mass, if these have no effect a head shot to the "Vermilion Zone" this was once called the Mozambique Drill, not sure what it is called today.

MachIVshooter
September 9, 2012, 01:32 PM
This will impact and damage the central nervous system and be a no questions stop.

IF the bullet gets through. That's the point of this thread; We're talking about defensive handguns, not rifles. The face itself is pretty fragile, but there is a good chance that a relatively low powered handgun round will be deflected by bone/teeth. Serious trauma? Yes. Instantly incapacitating or life threatening? Good chance it won't be. A bullet that shatters the mandible, blows out some teeth and tears off a big chunk of flesh is going to hurt, and it's going to require medical attention. But a broken jaw and a nasty laceration is not physically incapacitating.

Certaindeaf
September 9, 2012, 01:42 PM
I think a .380 to one of those spots would be about like a sharp axe swung by a berserker.

Shawn Dodson
September 9, 2012, 02:13 PM
What would be the terminal ballistics effect of a 95gr .380acp fmj round travelling at 870ft/s if it squarely impacted an assailent's:

1)Nose?
2)Cheek bones?
3)Mouth?
4)jaw line?

It's going to depend entirely on circumstances that are beyond your control. The effects are unpredictable and unreliable.

How different would the results be if a easily expanding hollow point like the Winchester silvertip were used? Can one shot to the lower face be expected to produce a "one shot stop"? It's not going to matter if the bullet is FMJ or JHP. The face is not a vital organ. You cannot expect an attacker to react to being shot in the face. He/she may be high on drugs, drunk, and/or acting with sheer determination and able to ignore the wound. The only way to predictably stop this kind of person quickly is for your bullet to reach and physically damage and disrupt CNS structures or cut the carotid or jugular vessels in the neck.

MrDig
September 9, 2012, 02:14 PM
Facial bone structure is some of the most fragile in the human body, I am uncertain of its properties but I believe even the lowly .380 acp has enough oomph to penetrate facial bone structure. With the exception of maybe the jaw bone itself.
A 9mm Parabellum certainly does, so what are people worried about? I would be more worried about my ability to hit an area that small out at say 7 meters or approximately 21 feet, than the ability of the bullet to penetrate.
If you hit any human being in the Vermilion Zone at 21 feet or less, with a .380 or better that person will be having a bad day even if it doesn't kill them. I think it would be a automatic off switch but it you want to loose sleep about it be my guest.

barnbwt
September 9, 2012, 06:24 PM
But a broken jaw and a nasty laceration is not physically incapacitating.


I suppose not if the guy's undead, or something, but a hit like that would seem to limit nearly all attackers' ability to continue assault. Just because the .380 is a weaker round than 9mm doesn't mean it's a BB gun (and heck, many of those would kill you with a face-shot, too).

I think a .380 to one of those spots would be about like a sharp axe swung by a berserker.

Precisely. May not jellify the attacker's brain or whatever, but he would be in no shape to continue fighting effectively, either. The odds of the bullet deflecting off the nickle he stuck up his nose as a kid is probably higher than a face-shot not ending the fight.

I with those saying a face-shot is a pretty tall order in a SD situation, period, and terminal performance is harldy the limiting issue.

TCB

brickeyee
September 9, 2012, 07:32 PM
I suppose not if the guy's undead, or something,

Plenty of folks keep fighting with more serious injuries than a "broken jaw and a nasty laceration."

JohnKSa
September 9, 2012, 07:56 PM
Yeah, teeth are hard, but they're also pretty thin and brittle. They won't stop a bullet...Teeth are very hard, very tough, and generally thicker than people think.

A tooth can definitely stop a pistol bullet.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/teeth.asp

http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/graphics/teeth4.jpg

The bullet that knocked out the tooth was from a "9mm automatic" shot at very close range.

The soldier was not incapacitated, in fact, he did not immediately believe he had actually been shot, he reported that he initially thought the muzzle blast from the gun fired in his face had knocked out his tooth. The insurgent who shot him understandably chose to surrender immediately.

TrueTexan
September 10, 2012, 04:01 PM
The area you are aiming at is very small from the eyebrows to the bottom of the nose.much of this area is multiple layers of bone such as the sinus cavities and the nasal bones. Even though they are thin compared to the frontal skull area, they can slow or deflect a bullet depending on the angle of impact. It will have an adverse effect on their day but it might not stop the threat. As for hitting the brain stem and stopping ll activity,maybe or maybe not. We had a patient come into the ER where I worked as a RN. He had been shot at very close range with a 32 cal pistol ball ammo to the lower posterior skull. It was close enough for powder burn to the hair. The bullet went through the brain stem into the upper brain . The patient went to surgery and two weeks later walked out of the hospital and went back to work with no deficits. It is just a matter of luck and if you can put the odds more in your favor you can have the better luck.

GLOOB
September 10, 2012, 04:25 PM
I think it would be pretty distracting to be shot in the face. If the threat isn't stopped, you might have time to try again.

A Vietnam vet told me how he witnessed a private accidentally shoot his best friend in the face with a 1911. The bullet plowed through his teeth, taking out a row of molars and stopping in the back of the mouth.

Jim K
September 12, 2012, 02:14 PM
I have no idea what kind of freakish condition was involved in that incident, but making the general statement that "A tooth can definitely stop a pistol bullet" is a bit extreme.

I knew of a man who was shot in the forehead with a .45ACP caliber pistol; the bullet travelled around inside his skull and exited at the rear. He suffered only a slight headache and walked to the hospital.

But I would not like to say that anyone shot between the eyes with a .45 will be fine and need only a couple of aspirins.

Jim

Certaindeaf
September 12, 2012, 02:23 PM
Old Bucktooth McGee always said to drink milk because if you get shot in the mouth, you've at least enjoyed a nutritional and refreshing drink. probably

Godsgunman
September 12, 2012, 04:20 PM
In my opinion you best be using FMJs if it a 380, from the head traumas I've seen a JHP will be very ineffective. Penetration is numero uno when dealing with head/face shots. The skull and facial bones are very effective at deflecting and stopping penetration. The very best bet especially if the assailant does have armor is a side shot to neck and base of head. The skull is very effective against frontal trauma, the weak points are from the side. Take out the trachea, c-spine, esophagus area and he'll stop the attack. Again you're hoping that the target is stationary which he most likely won't be so you'd pretty much be counting on a very lucky shot.

KansasSasquatch
September 12, 2012, 04:23 PM
My father was a Vietnam era Marine. An MP (or whatever the Marine equivalent is/was) had modified his issued 1911. The gun had a negligent discharge, the bullet ricocheted, went through my father's right cheek, took out his entire top right side of teeth, and still had enough energy to exit his neck. It missed his artery by about 2mm. I think a .380 would do just fine if you can manage to hit most places on the head.

EmGeeGeorge
September 12, 2012, 09:13 PM
Pelvic girdle...

Certaindeaf
September 12, 2012, 09:25 PM
Pelvic girdle...
Is that like a cervical sling?

TrueTexan
September 12, 2012, 09:26 PM
My CCW instructor caries a small 22magnum loaded with rat or snake shot. He said his wife carried the same. He taught withh a gun and load like this was to shoot the eyes and that would stop the threat because they would be blind.

JohnKSa
September 12, 2012, 09:39 PM
"A tooth can definitely stop a pistol bullet" is a bit extreme.It's not extreme at all.

If one were to say, based on a single incident that a tooth WILL definitely stop a pistol bullet, that would be extreme. There's not enough evidence in a single incident to say that teeth WILL definitely stop bullets.

On the other hand, if we have a documented incident where a tooth DID stop a pistol bullet, then it's perfectly reasonable to note that a tooth CAN definitely stop a pistol bullet. There's certainly enough evidence in a documented incident were a tooth did stop a bullet to state categorically that a tooth CAN stop a bullet.But I would not like to say that anyone shot between the eyes with a .45 will be fine and need only a couple of aspirins.I wouldn't either.

However, it would be accurate to say that a person shot between the eyes CAN survive it without being incapacitated and without even suffering severe injury if the circumstances work out in his favor.

There's a huge difference between the words "will" and "can".

Besides, the comment was made in response to someone else's categorical statement that teeth can't stop bullets. That is clearly not correct because the documented incident shows that teeth CAN stop pistol bullets in certain situations. It's not a given that they WILL, but we should be aware that they CAN.

hirundo82
September 12, 2012, 09:40 PM
Any of those will at least get his attention for sure. I've seen facial wounds that were just through soft tissue and only required a dressing. On the other end of the spectrum, I've seen a man shot in a driveby where the bullet entered his cheek and was lodged in the anterior arch of C1--another centimeter and he would have been killed instantly.

For ideal shooting, I train for two triangles. The larger of the two has its points on the nipples and the Adam's apple. The smaller of the two is an upside-down triangle with its points on the eyes and the tip of the nose. A straight-on shot there has the best chance of hitting the brain stem of any frontal shot, and that's the most reliable stop there is.

hirundo82
September 12, 2012, 09:47 PM
Pelvic girdle...

I've addressed this before, but briefly the pelvic shot is very overrated as a reliable stop, at least in my opinion. It is my understanding that it is used in hunting, but there is a very big difference when talking self-defense--namely the difference between quadrupeds and bipeds.

The human pelvis is a strong structure (it has to be for bipedal locomotion) with lots of redundancy, and there are only a couple of spots you could hit that are likely to stop an assailant (symphysis, femoral head/neck). I don't think it is feasible to rely on it as a self-defense shot with a pistol.

Sport45
September 12, 2012, 09:51 PM
My CCW instructor caries a small 22magnum loaded with rat or snake shot. He said his wife carried the same. He taught withh a gun and load like this was to shoot the eyes and that would stop the threat because they would be blind.


I hope his attacker isn't wearing prescription glasses. I'm pretty sure mine would stop ratshot from a reasonable distance. But I'm not going to waste a pair to find out.

JohnKSa
September 12, 2012, 09:56 PM
Any of those will at least get his attention for sure.Read the linked information I provided. The soldier was not incapacitated in the least and didn't actually even think he had been shot. He reported that he believed that the muzzle blast had knocked out his tooth.I hope his attacker isn't wearing prescription glasses. I'm pretty sure mine would stop ratshot from a reasonable distance.My prescription glasses are actually prescription safety glasses. I figured, why not? You can't even tell by looking at them.

Sport45
September 12, 2012, 11:32 PM
My prescription glasses are actually prescription safety glasses. I figured, why not? You can't even tell by looking at them.

Mine too. Safevision.net has some good looking frames and shooters on staff that are very helpful.

brickeyee
September 13, 2012, 02:44 PM
You can have polycarbonate lenses put in almost any frame.

I often end up with them to save weight since negative high diopter lenses start getting heavy to wear (think coke bottle bottoms).

While they are not actual 'safety glasses' they are still going to be pretty effective against smaller threats.
And even safety glasses are not going to stop a direct bullet impact very well.

Certaindeaf
September 13, 2012, 03:05 PM
My $7 sunglasses are the bomb. 100% yada, they fit very well, look cool, they cost uh, $7 and they are ANSI approved.
That fella might want to be able to run fast at the very least. never know though

Gordon
September 13, 2012, 03:10 PM
I think a hit in the "snot locker" from 90 degrees is pretty bad from a .22 mag up. A center thorax hit from 90 degrees with .38 special up is pretty final too and relatively quick. Plenty other "deep meat" hits will take somebody out but I go for the snot locker under 15 yards if time and the center thorax otherwise.

Certaindeaf
September 13, 2012, 09:16 PM
Learn something every day.. color me gobsmacked by the snotlocker

MrDig
September 13, 2012, 09:46 PM
"snot locker"

Learn something every day.. color me gobsmacked by the snotlocker

I have not heard anyone use that since I was, well a lot younger than I am today to say the least.
Had to laugh, made me think of my wrestling coach in H.S.

GRIZ22
September 14, 2012, 04:53 PM
One shot stop with a shot to the face with a 380? That depends. I am aware of an incident where a LEO was shot it the mouth with a 380 fmj. The bullet hit his teeth and roof of the mouth, went down and exited through the bottom of his lower jaw lodging in the flesh of his chest without penetrating any bone. The LEO drew and fired 3 shots hitting the BG killing him after taking this hit. The LEO then collapsed.

A lot of one shot stop depends on luck and the tenacity of who you're shooting at. Accuracy does come first.

brickeyee
September 15, 2012, 01:38 PM
ANSI approved.

For what?

Probbaly just the lenses pass the shatterproof test.
Nothing more.

Certaindeaf
September 15, 2012, 02:07 PM
For what?

Probbaly just the lenses pass the shatterproof test.
Nothing more.
Who are you talking to? hard to tell
It's a standard certification. For sure to stop dust/ratshot easy unless it's perhaps blast/contact affected but that's not what/how it's certified.
Perhaps more.
What are you going on about? You too can have a pair!

JRWhit
September 15, 2012, 02:26 PM
I think your spending a little to much time thinking about this. I'm no doctor, but I suspect if you shoot somebody in the face, they aren't gonna want to play anymore.

MachIVshooter
September 16, 2012, 01:26 PM
I've addressed this before, but briefly the pelvic shot is very overrated as a reliable stop, at least in my opinion. It is my understanding that it is used in hunting, but there is a very big difference when talking self-defense--namely the difference between quadrupeds and bipeds.

Not usually. The POA on game animals is usually neck, shoulder or "boiler room" (heart/lung area). While a destroyed pelvis may severely impede the animal's ability to move, they still have front legs, and there's not much in the way of vitals back there. My sister hit a small hog (~70 lbs) with a .22-250 through the hips, and in the time it took us to get out of the truck and make it to where he'd been hit (30 yards away), he was gone. Luckily, his drag marks gave him away, but he'd made it a good 40-50 yards through the mesquite brush in very little time, and was still very much alive.

The human pelvis is a strong structure (it has to be for bipedal locomotion) with lots of redundancy, and there are only a couple of spots you could hit that are likely to stop an assailant (symphysis, femoral head/neck). I don't think it is feasible to rely on it as a self-defense shot with a pistol.

Definitely not. Unless one's SD handgun is a .454 Casull or some other loudenboomer, handgun rounds simply do not have the power to catastrophically damage those large bones. I suspect a .380 round, even FMJ, would be stopped cold by the femoral head and do no damage to it after having traveled through a few inches of flesh.

KansasSasquatch
September 16, 2012, 03:08 PM
The only hunting I've ever heard of where a pelvic shot is generally acceptable is turkey hunting with a bow. If hit from the broad side it pretty much keeps the bird from going anywhere.

Certaindeaf
September 16, 2012, 03:13 PM
Yea, we're not talking turkey.

KansasSasquatch
September 16, 2012, 03:28 PM
Exactly. Pelvic shots probably aren't a good idea then.

Deltaboy
September 16, 2012, 03:43 PM
We had a man get killed breaking in a house from a single 22 LR through his eyeball and out the back of his brain leaving a Orange sized hole. It was from a rifle and I believe it was a Remington yellow jacket at 15 feet.

Certaindeaf
September 16, 2012, 04:09 PM
Exactly. Pelvic shots probably aren't a good idea then.
Yea. We're not talking turkey and turkeys don't wear body armor and I don't use a .22.

Certaindeaf
September 16, 2012, 04:11 PM
We had a man get killed breaking in a house from a single 22 LR through his eyeball and out the back of his brain leaving a Orange sized hole. It was from a rifle and I believe it was a Remington yellow jacket at 15 feet.
Doh! wear them saftey glasses

brickeyee
September 16, 2012, 04:15 PM
"Doh! wear them saftey glasses"

A .22 RF is well over the design limit for safety glasses.

Certaindeaf
September 16, 2012, 04:28 PM
Good deal. Thank the Jesus we all have two faces/cheeks when struck with a 9mm etc.

KansasSasquatch
September 16, 2012, 08:29 PM
No, thank God we have Certaindeaf to give us such good advice.:rolleyes:

ChCx2744
September 17, 2012, 12:35 AM
Here's how I see it: If someone gets shot in the facial area with a .380, if it doesn't kill them, it will definitely stop them long enough for you to place a follow up shot in the same general facial area. I'm sure that 2 shots to the face from a .380 is going to send a clear message to the receiving party that maybe they should reconsider whatever it is that they did to make you do such a thing.

leadcounsel
October 5, 2012, 10:03 PM
I don't think any SD handgun caliber/round would be slowed much by any of the bones in the face. Facial bones are relatively fragile - broken cheek, teeth, nose aren't that hard. Probably comparable to a thin piece of pine, maybe 1/2 inch at most. Handgun rounds would zip right through them.

Facial shots would cause devestating wounds, probably lethal. If not lethal it would cause incredible pain, blood loss, and effect the individual significantly. The head bleeds a lot and there are a lot of nerves in the face/head. Many of your senses are located in your head/face (sight/smell/taste/hearing) so there is a LOT going on there. I recon any solid hit would end the fight immediately and probably cause death within minutes at most, and probably immediately.

Senator Gifford was shot in the head. She survived after many surgeries. I recall seeing a statistic at the time about the % of people that survive headshots. It was an incredibly low percent, well under 10%. Something like 5%...

Then again, this guy survived (at least long enough for the video) an AK47 headshot... ! Bullets do weird things. Looks like this guy attempted to shoot himself with a rifle under the chin and it exited his forehead.

WARNING - Gruesome content!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=97d_1284297781

r1derbike
October 5, 2012, 10:50 PM
Leave the pelvis to elvis and go for the fuse box, if center mass fails.

@leadcounsel, hope that guy was drugged-up big time.

Certaindeaf
October 6, 2012, 12:13 AM
^
What are you talking about? Just pick your flavor.. anything from a 30" deep hole to a grapefruit.

Double Naught Spy
October 6, 2012, 06:12 AM
hit those hands (instead of his face) and he's going to be very messed up, might well drop the gun, even. he'll lower his hands if shot there, and subsquents shots then have a free path to the head. I'd never bother shooting anyone in the chest with a 380, factory ammo now, armored or not. It is just too feeble.

Well heck, if you can just shoot his hands all willy nilly when you want to, then just shoot the weapon from it and be good to go. :rolleyes:

.380 isn't feeble as you claim and the type of shooting on demand that you are talking about is reliably peformed by folks in combat about 0% of the time. Hands are often hit, often only because they are in front of the intended target and randomly the rest of the time.

marv
October 8, 2012, 01:12 AM
Put 1 or 2 in the groin below the armor. While his mouth is open screaming pop a couple into it.

Certaindeaf
October 8, 2012, 01:37 AM
^
But what about the gristle plate?

doc2rn
October 8, 2012, 08:37 PM
I once worked with a paramedic/firefighter who's brother shot him in the mouth with a .357. The bullet entered the cheek, hit the jawbone, and ricochetted out the front taking both upper and lower front teeth. When I say he is anti-gun, that is an understatement.

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