You Are Headed to Africa on Safari. Which Big Game Rifle Do You Buy?


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Kynoch
September 9, 2012, 01:27 AM
You are headed to African in 9 months on safari. You have a shotgun, a 30-caliber rifle and a sidearm all ready to go but you don't own a big game rifle. If you had the following choices, which would you choose?

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Gordon
September 9, 2012, 02:12 AM
CZ in .375 H&H and you would really have the right tool.:banghead:

dubya450
September 9, 2012, 02:32 AM
If i had an extra 5 grand to spend i would get a Kimber Caprivi Special Edition in 375h&h. Thats a big if though..

finnwolf64
September 9, 2012, 04:06 AM
I'd just take my CZ .375 H&H. I'd also forget the sidearm.
For plains game a 30-06 will work well, but so will a .375 H&H.
For dangerous game such as cape buffalo, lion & elephant a .375 H&H will do the job. If you are worried about the stopping power of a .375 H&H don't be, as a huge number of dangerous game has been taken with this cartridge. Your PH will also be there as back up with something large.

Bio-Chem
September 9, 2012, 04:22 AM
the largest thing you can shoot accurately and want to practice with enough without developing a massive flinch. i can't imagine a 458 matches that one. im going 375

Salmoneye
September 9, 2012, 06:21 AM
Marlin .444 Safari Grade

The "Safari Grade 444 Stage II": COL 2.750; This modification is suitable for heavy weight, long barreled Marlins, and develops world class power, that, with the right bullet can take anything that walks the earth. The 405 grain bullet at 2150 fps develops 4158 ft lbs, with a Thorniley of 236 and a Taylor of 54. The 300 grain bullet at 2500 fps and 4164 ft lbs, develops a Thorniley of 203 and a Taylor of 46. This modification will ideally require a .550 nose to crimp length bullet (although it will shoot others), and as I said in a previous posting, Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets is working on that project now.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/444-marlin/62750-safari-grade-444-conclusion.html

Manny
September 9, 2012, 06:43 AM
Ruger M77 in 9.3x62 topped with a good quality 1.5-6x42 scope. No "Big 5" for me, no money or desire. The classic 9.3x62 would do for the game I would go after without beating the snot out of me. I'd also have a great rifle to use when I got back home, not a safe queen that'd get little use.

BigBoreFan
September 9, 2012, 07:07 AM
Since Africa is pie in the sky anyway I may as well dream big about the rifles too.


http://bradshawgunandrifle.com/Farquharson_Double_Rifle_1B.php



http://www.csmcspecials.com/Fuchs_Magnificent_double_rifle_bolt_action_repeate_p/20528.htm

Andrew Leigh
September 9, 2012, 07:43 AM
A .375 with a Mauser action, you won't want any troubles with cycling the bolt and failing to eject or pick up a round. Good shot placement and your are good to go with the CZ. I would get lots of practice in, especially with open sights and at ranges up to 100yds. You will shoot over sticks as very few PH's want to russle around the brush looking for wounded animals. If you load then develope a load with premium bullets.

The .375 is a great antelope rifle as well. It has a bit more punch than the 9.3 so it would get my vote.

It would help if you more specific and your target species.

That .460 Weatherby Magnum is evil. You could develope a flinch in no time with that puppy. It has about 4.5X the recoil of a 30-06 with 180gr. bullets. This is a picture of a friends buffalo shot for rations. This view shows the entrance wound ...... this is a .450 Rigby loaded near as dammit to the .460 Weatherby specs in terms of bullet weigh and speed.

T.R.
September 9, 2012, 08:05 AM
I'd take a 30-06 and rent a big bore from the PH. Buying a big bore for one trip seems like a costly investment with very limited use here in USA.

TR

conhntr
September 9, 2012, 08:34 AM
375!

jmr40
September 9, 2012, 08:50 AM
Winchester or Ruger, but in 375. That is plenty for a hunter. The guide might prefer the bigger 458 as a stopper if things go bad.

loadedround
September 9, 2012, 09:02 AM
My choice of an all around rifle would also be the old 375 H&H Mag. My choice of rifle would be the one I own and that's a Ruger Model 77 MK ll African.

TurtlePhish
September 9, 2012, 09:51 AM
I'd be incredibly happy with a Winchester Model 70 in .375H&H.

Robert
September 9, 2012, 10:05 AM
Of the ones listed, the Winchester. If left to my own choice a 375H&H, a 404 Jeffery or a good double in something like 470NE.

mavracer
September 9, 2012, 10:08 AM
I don't want a 458 and the rifle I'd prefer isn't on your list so It would be a random draw for me from your list. If I had my choice it's gonna be a Ruger 77 tropical in 416 Rigby.

skywalkrNCSU
September 9, 2012, 10:14 AM
I'd take a 30-06 and rent a big bore from the PH. Buying a big bore for one trip seems like a costly investment with very limited use here in USA.

TR

But that gives you the excuse to find a way to use it again :D

ironhead7544
September 9, 2012, 10:16 AM
Since you want a .458, the CZ in my choice.

CraigC
September 9, 2012, 10:31 AM
Of those listed, I chose the CZ. However, the Ruger Magnum MKII's are beautifully made, almost custom grade rifles and I would choose a .416Rigby. The most comfortable rifle I've ever shouldered was a $3700 custom shop model 70 .375H&H. It was almost as if it was fitted to me. I would also be tempted by a Ruger No. 1 in .450/.400 or 9.3x74R. Depending on what I was after.

I'm planning on doing a plains game hunt sometime in the next few years and my Winchester 1895 .405WCF loaded with 300gr Woodleigh's will be the star of that show. Along with my custom Ruger Bisley .44Mag loaded with 330's@1350fps or 355's@1250fps.


I'd take a 30-06 and rent a big bore from the PH.
If I needed a big bore, I sure as hell wouldn't go forth with a rifle I hadn't just spent at least six months getting intimately acquainted with.

Certaindeaf
September 9, 2012, 11:16 AM
Get/use one that you are familiar with. Heard a story of some guy going after something that could kill you and was using an unfamiliar to him BRNO with tang safety. That particular safety when forward is on "safe". He got stomped or chewed to death after numerous attempts to fire his safetied weapon.

Patocazador
September 9, 2012, 11:45 AM
What game are you after? If it's just plains game your .30 cal. with premium bullets will work fine. If it's Cape buffalo anything from .375 H&H up will work. If it's rhino or elephant you've got enough money to buy them all.

tomrkba
September 9, 2012, 11:50 AM
I'd probably just take a plain old lever action rifle in 45/70 topped with a low power 1-4x variable optic. I'd load up with hard cast bullets between 300-500 grains depending upon the game.

Art Eatman
September 9, 2012, 02:39 PM
FWIW: As near as I can gather from reading, the .458 Winchester seems to be marginal. Not quite enough velocity for its diameter to give as much penetration as the professional hunters want.

There is a derivation of that cartridge which has a case which is a bit longer, and provides another 200 or 300 ft/sec. It's regarded as more desirable.

Andrew Leigh
September 9, 2012, 03:01 PM
You would not be allowed to use it on larger game. When entering dangerous game terratory the minimum would be a .375 as although you might not be actively hunting big game but it may elect to have a go at you. I would not be happy with 45/70 at half the muzzle energy of a .375.

It is not always about what you are hunting but what calibre could protect you if youy run into a bad tempered Buffalo.

Andrew Leigh
September 9, 2012, 03:04 PM
Standard issue for a Kruger Park Ranger is a .458. Some elect to walk with their own rifles, my friend is a ranger and walks with the .450 Rigby with open sights, he faces animals all the time and does not have a backup PH so he needs stopping power.

With a PH a .375 should be fine.

CraigC
September 9, 2012, 03:07 PM
I would not be happy with 45/70 at half the muzzle energy of a .375.
Sorry but the .45-70 pushing a 420gr LBT at 2000fps or a 500gr at 1600fps is a proven stopper. Even lowly handguns firing heavyweight cast bullets that would be considered anemic by so-called experts will penetrate several feet of Cape buffalo and break bones along the way. Energy means nothing.

Andrew Leigh
September 9, 2012, 03:18 PM
Energy means plenty but it does not matter. I doubt if a PH would be prepared to let you use it on an African Hunt.

There are few calibres that penetrate "several feet" of Buff, through the chest, when is is charging you. I do not have experience of the 45/70 and Buff so would have to bow out here. What kind of bullet would this be?

CraigC
September 9, 2012, 03:24 PM
Energy means plenty but it does not matter. I doubt if a PH would be prepared to let you use it on an African Hunt.
Google is your friend. If you don't know anything about the .45/70, then how can you comment?

Andrew Leigh
September 9, 2012, 03:50 PM
I said I had no experience of shooting a 45/70 at a Buff, you obviously have and I would be keen to hear your experience rather than your snotty remark.

Weather it fits your paradigm or not the .375 is probably the most popular big game calibre in Africa and for reason. Many use larger but it is not deemed necessary unless you are a PH and you need to undo some poor shooting QUICKLY, it helps to have something with real whack. To get back to the OP's original question he was coming to Africa. You can shoot nigh everything with the .375 while not having to endure massive recoil. Ammo is readily available

Manny
September 9, 2012, 03:51 PM
The thing that surprises me about this thread is that hardly anyone wants ANY type of .458, which is what the whole poll was built around. By far the most mentioned cartridge was the .375 H&H. Despite mega love for magnum cartriges for most hunting, it looks like when you get to the real big boomers there are significantly fewer folks who are interested in dealing with the real big dogs...

Certaindeaf
September 9, 2012, 04:01 PM
A .458 Winchester magnum isn't sexy enough and might hurt your shoulder. I think much of the above is code for you couldn't drop a dik-dik with a .458 because it'll make you flinch too much or is too weak. feh

texas chase
September 9, 2012, 04:58 PM
I just fired a 458 win mag for the first time last weekend. It was a commercial action and the rifle was built in Austria. Interesting but not my thing. I voted for the winchester model 70 but if it was me, I'd go with the 375 personally. It'll do everything

jmr40
September 9, 2012, 05:03 PM
Most consider a 458 as an underperformer and actually prefer the 375,416, or several others. The 45-70 is quite a bit less powerful even in its best loads and is marginal at best. You may find a hard time finding a PH that will even let you use it.

Kynoch
September 9, 2012, 05:20 PM
To answer someone's question, the game will be Cape Buffalo. I have long owned a well-prepared Remington Model 700 BDL in 300 Win. Mag. and a Remington 870 12 gauge that will also be making the trip.

I listed very specific rifles and calibers because they are guns I have actually seen for sale used or on consignment at LGS's within about 150 miles of my house. The 375 H&H and 416 Rigby are both excellent rounds but my focus is on either the 458 Winchester or Lott Mag. or the 460 Weatherby Mag. I have shot all three a fair amount, feel comfortable with all three and have access to reloading resources for those calibers.

In the end my choice will be made by whatever ends-up fitting the best, "swinging" the best and costing the least. I am surprised at the popularity of the CZ. While CZ does provide excellent value I am intrigued both at the number of votes they are receiving and their excellent availability. Thanks.

Kynoch
September 9, 2012, 05:30 PM
The thing that surprises me about this thread is that hardly anyone wants ANY type of .458, which is what the whole poll was built around. By far the most mentioned cartridge was the .375 H&H. Despite mega love for magnum cartriges for most hunting, it looks like when you get to the real big boomers there are significantly fewer folks who are interested in dealing with the real big dogs...

Very good observation Manny. Both the 375 and 416 are legendary rounds. And for good reason, they get the job done and have for decades. But I asked about specific rifles in specific calibers for specific reasons. I wonder how many respondents have actually hunted or even shot a 458 Win or Lott Mag. or a 460 Wby Mag more than once or twice? I have shot all three (plus the 375 H&H) many times and feel comfortable with all four. That's one reason why I didn't ask about a caliber recommendation. I know what I want from my own actual experience.

The problem is that I don't always have the opportunity to shoot (or in the past, shot) what mounts nicely at the LGS, hence my posting.

cadjak
September 9, 2012, 06:58 PM
SAKO AV 375 H&H with a Kahles Helia C 1.1-4x24mm w/ German #4 reticle. Lightweight, custom Rimrock stock. Africa trip was cut and the rifle has been in the safe ever since. :uhoh:

Grumulkin
September 9, 2012, 06:58 PM
I have never shot a 458 Winchester Magnum.

I have a CZ 550 Safari Magnum chambered in 458 Lott and I really like it. Though I think it will do more, the only thing I ever shot with it is a rabbit.

I have never shot a 460 Weatherby Magnum but have lusted over one for a long time. I do have a 378 Weatherby Magnum. When I got the latter, I was a bit surprised about how nice the trigger was, how trim and pretty the stock was and how accurate it was. Do to my experience with my 378 Weatherby, I voted for the 460 Weatherby.

I have several more potential choices for buffalo guns; a 375 JDJ and a couple of 375 H&H Magnums. From what I already have though, if I were going after buffalo with a rifle, it would probably be with the 458 Lott. If I were going after one with a handgun, it would be a 460 S&W Magnum.

oneounceload
September 9, 2012, 07:14 PM
I have two friends who have regularly hunted Africa (each over 13 times)- for a plains game hunt, anything from 243 to 338 is taken. For dangerous game, one uses a 458, the other uses a 416 - these are for elephant, rhino, hippo, buffalo, etc. Neither would be bringing a sidearm or a 30-30. IF birds are on the hunt, then they would both be bringing a 12 gauge O/U; otherwise, 2-3 rifles depending on what game is being hunted

Kynoch
September 9, 2012, 07:50 PM
I have never shot a 458 Winchester Magnum.

I have a CZ 550 Safari Magnum chambered in 458 Lott and I really like it. Though I think it will do more, the only thing I ever shot with it is a rabbit.

I have never shot a 460 Weatherby Magnum but have lusted over one for a long time. I do have a 378 Weatherby Magnum. When I got the latter, I was a bit surprised about how nice the trigger was, how trim and pretty the stock was and how accurate it was. Do to my experience with my 378 Weatherby, I voted for the 460 Weatherby.

I have several more potential choices for buffalo guns; a 375 JDJ and a couple of 375 H&H Magnums. From what I already have though, if I were going after buffalo with a rifle, it would probably be with the 458 Lott. If I were going after one with a handgun, it would be a 460 S&W Magnum.

It's nice to hear from someone who actually shoots the big bores. Rifles chambered for the 458 Lott are great because they can accommodate both the 458 Lott (essentially a necked-out 375 H&H) and the 458 Win. Mag. shells.

As you infer the Weatherby 460 is nothing to be afraid of, nor will it necessarily cause a flinch. The 460's recoil in my experience is considerably more than the 458 Lott but it's certainly not punishing to me.

finnwolf64
September 9, 2012, 08:02 PM
I'd be interested to know what country in Africa allows handgun hunting for dangerous game?
I voted and recommended a CZ( although in .375H&H, cause thats what I own). The reason I bought a CZ was they are based on a Mauser action (crf), they are accurate, they weigh a bit more than the other rifles(so recoil less), & they are well priced. That said, any of the makes of rifles you list will work, although I would not want to hunt dangerous game with the single shot Ruger.
A lot of the guides I've met in Africa carry CZ's or old Brno's.They seem to be the workhorse rifle in Africa. The last guide I used in Zimbabwe carried a CZ in 416. He used this rifle for guiding & hunting elephant, but if you want a 458 go for it & buy one.

WoodchuckAssassin
September 9, 2012, 08:25 PM
Aside from your caliber selection, I would think a reliable action would be first when considering a Safari rifle. The CZ’s and the Winchester are the only 2 on the list that have controlled fed (mauser 98) actions. In what could turn into a life and death situation, I wouldn’t want anything other than a controlled fed action – it simply takes away a few things that could go wrong (like a frantic double-feed or broken extractor). Of THESE two rifles, I would take the CZ. It’s a little heavier than the Winchester, and will recoil less…not by much, but every little bit helps. Happy Hunting!

Grumulkin
September 9, 2012, 08:40 PM
I'd be interested to know what country in Africa allows handgun hunting for dangerous game?

South Africa, Mozambique and I think Botswana and Zimbabwe but I could be wrong on the later two. There may also be others. In fact, I believe there isn't even a minimum caliber requirement in Mozambique; it's between you and your PH.

As for the controlled feed thing, I think it would probably only be necessary if you were upside down and maybe not even then.

There is another factor to consider with current airline baggage fees. There is no way you're going to get a couple of long guns on an airplane without being charged oversized baggage fees unless the guns can be taken down. That might be a reason to consider a Blaser R 8 which you can get in 458 Lott or a Blaser R 93 which can be had in 375 H&H Magnum and 416 Remington Magnum. They might seem expensive until you start paying oversized baggage fees each way and on multiple legs then maybe not so much.

Kynoch
September 9, 2012, 08:51 PM
Aside from your caliber selection, I would think a reliable action would be first when considering a Safari rifle. The CZ’s and the Winchester are the only 2 on the list that have controlled fed (mauser 98) actions. In what could turn into a life and death situation, I wouldn’t want anything other than a controlled fed action – it simply takes away a few things that could go wrong (like a frantic double-feed or broken extractor). Of THESE two rifles, I would take the CZ. It’s a little heavier than the Winchester, and will recoil less…not by much, but every little bit helps. Happy Hunting!

The post-1964 Model 70's do not have controlled "claw feeds" to my knowledge. Push feed rifles were long used in something even more dangerous than big game hunting -- namely combat, so I am definitely not ruling them out.

Depending on what I end-up with, I'm also not ruling out a red dot sight. It would have to be a combat-robust/non-battery unit like the Trijicon Acog Reflex but the days of "express sights only" because of reliability concerns seem long gone to me.

SHR970
September 9, 2012, 09:01 PM
I already have a Rem 700 AWR in 375 RUM. Unless I am going to a country that has a minimum bore restriction of .400 or greater, I see no reason to get anything bigger. I have more than enough energy on tap to do the job....even of the quarry is a Mack Truck.:neener: Even then, my 45-70 Marlin with the right loads is capable; since I am very familiar with it my confidence and my shot placement are not going to be an issue.

HankB
September 9, 2012, 09:20 PM
I voted for the Browning Safari simply because I have a Browning Safari in .375 H&H, and the stock dimensions are as near perfect for me as anything I've ever picked up. It wears a Leupold 6x42 'scope simply because it fits me so well that a lower power isn't required - I raise it to my shoulder and it's dead on - and the 4.5" of eye relief guarantees I won't get a brow cut even if I'm shooting quick from a less than perfect position.

This is an older rifle - something over 30 years old - and is no longer made, so my comments may not translate to any of Browning's current offerings. It has a Sako-type extractor, but has never hiccuped, and yes, it will even feed reliably upside down. Action is very smooth, and with some custom work (some by myself, some by a local gunsmith) it's a fine safari rifle, having accounted for lion, hippo, a couple of Cape buffalo, and various other game.

With a .30 caliber rifle, a .375 actually makes more sense to me unless elephant is your primary large game; a .375 is regarded by some as marginal for Jumbo, but it's on the right side of the margin and has accounted for a LOT of elephant. IF I were going to .458, I'd go right to .458 Lott. As a handloader, I probably wouldn't load it up to maximum, but it should be easy to equal or exceed the .458's original advertised performance in a shorter, handier package with rather low chamber pressures . . . and you always have the option of using standard .458 ammo in a pinch.

Of the rifles you list, I would not consider the Remington (I question the extraction system), the Ruger (single shot) or the Weatherby (low mag capacity, poor stock fit for me, and heavy recoil.) Plus, if your rifles arrive but your ammo doesn't you have SOME chance of finding .375 H&H or .458 Win ammo in Africa; finding .460 Weatherby would be like winning the lotto.

Two rifles, shotgun, handgun . . . better check the law, it used to be the US only allowed three guns per person when leaving the country. And that's a LOT to lug around. I think you're allowed 5 kg of ammo total, and many African countries severely restrict handguns and some types of shotgun actions.

CraigC
September 9, 2012, 10:23 PM
You may find a hard time finding a PH that will even let you use it.
Yet they've all been taken with the .44Mag. :rolleyes:

gunner69
September 10, 2012, 12:05 AM
I vote +1 with Manny. I have a CZ550FS (full stock) in 9.3x62 a caliber which has been killing large game for over 100 years in both Asia and Africa. If I do my part, with this old slow heavy bullet, NOTHING walks far if ever. My Jager Instructor in German introduced me to this caliber in the 1980s and I am still impressed. He had a log book that he entered each and every kill and it was as thick as a dictionary. It does not have to kick like hell and blaze a trail to the target to kill effectively.

lefteyedom
September 10, 2012, 01:47 AM
If you are hunting game that can kill you. Then question of which caliber is a little mute. You are going to carry something big enough to get the job done. There are plenty cartridges that will handle the great beast. Yes, I do believe that my lowly 338 Win Mag with 250-300 grain bullets could dispatch any animal on the face of the Earth. Yes I am aware of the legal restriction that will prevent me from hunting Elephant with my 338 WinMag. ( Laws against Bank robbery which is the only way I will every afford to hunt Africa)

The important question to me is the fit of the rifle to hunter. Can the hunter, under great stress, shoulder the rifle and hit an animal charging at close distant at speeds of 30 miles? Animal standing broadside at 100 yards is not much of a challenge compared to teeth at 10 yards.

A 375 H&H that handles like the deer rifle the hunter has used all his life would be a better bet than 460 Weatherby (or the like) he is not truly comfortable with.

Kynoch
September 10, 2012, 08:17 PM
If you are hunting game that can kill you. Then question of which caliber is a little mute. You are going to carry something big enough to get the job done. There are plenty cartridges that will handle the great beast. Yes, I do believe that my lowly 338 Win Mag with 250-300 grain bullets could dispatch any animal on the face of the Earth. Yes I am aware of the legal restriction that will prevent me from hunting Elephant with my 338 WinMag. ( Laws against Bank robbery which is the only way I will every afford to hunt Africa)

The important question to me is the fit of the rifle to hunter. Can the hunter, under great stress, shoulder the rifle and hit an animal charging at close distant at speeds of 30 miles? Animal standing broadside at 100 yards is not much of a challenge compared to teeth at 10 yards.

A 375 H&H that handles like the deer rifle the hunter has used all his life would be a better bet than 460 Weatherby (or the like) he is not truly comfortable with.

I don't think the question of caliber is ever moot unless one actually has no choice in the matter. I wouldn't sacrifice proper fit for a chosen caliber unless unless the caliber was inappropriate for the intended application or again, I had no choice in the matter.

We can all construct scenarios to try and sell our preferences. A 460 Weatherby that handles just as good as any 30 caliber to someone who has owned and shot it for years would be a better bet than a CZ 550 chambered in 375 H&H that the individual never touched before.

DM~
September 10, 2012, 08:43 PM
ASSUMEING the Winchester mod 70 would be TODAYS production M-70 rifle, that is the rifle i'd pick from YOUR choises, but i really wouldn't want it chambered in .458.

DM

DM~
September 10, 2012, 08:55 PM
I would not be happy with 45/70 at half the muzzle energy of a .375.

It is not always about what you are hunting but what calibre could protect you if youy run into a bad tempered Buffalo.

I'm "kinda" with you on that, i wouldn't want to have to use a 45/70 at all!

I don't care what cast bullet is in the 45/70, i don't see or even ever hear of any guide in Africa using that combo as a stopper, and they would if it really was a "stopper"! In fact all the guys that i know that hunt African regulary, none of them buy into that either.

DM

Art Eatman
September 10, 2012, 10:57 PM
A number of years back, TFL's Rich Lucibella did a safari with a .45-70. He had heavy-duty backup, of course, but was successful on buffalo with no misadventure.

brandonc
September 10, 2012, 11:31 PM
Ruger M77 in 9.3x62 topped with a good quality 1.5-6x42 scope. No "Big 5" for me, no money or desire. The classic 9.3x62 would do for the game I would go after without beating the snot out of me. I'd also have a great rifle to use when I got back home, not a safe queen that'd get little use.

Sounds good to me. The 9.3x62 can be used on the biggest of the big 5 in some areas. It is probably second to the .375 on the most African game taken.

CraigC
September 11, 2012, 12:59 AM
In fact all the guys that i know that hunt African regulary, none of them buy into that either.
I find there to be LOTS of bias and closed minds when it comes to rifle/cartridge selection for Africa. Facts be damned.

Andrew Leigh
September 11, 2012, 02:14 AM
I went and did a bit of of work on the .45-70 and found a web page where a chap had taken the big six (Hippo included) with his .45-70. So that was most interesting and I stand corrected on it penetrative ability.

A friend shoots Kudu with a .222, but headshots only and at no more than 100m.

In the right hands some calibres will achieve wonders. The problem is when things go wrong, that is where good shot placement has to make way for some stopping power and frenetic shooting. Saw Johan Calitz shoot a charging Lion from the hip at 5 yds, the calibre stopped the Lion which fell dead on his lower leg. That will give you the adrenaline shakes for a couple of hours.

I think we have side tracked the OP's thread. He simply wanted to know which of the rifles he had posted would be better and was not looking for alternate suggestions.

So given that he is ACTUALLY going to target Buffalo then and that he is comfortable will the handling and recoil of these calibres. Then it would be one of two for me the CZ550 or the Weatherby.

If the rifle will be used once then the CZ550 as it is cheaper (here at least), if this is to be a regular hunt then the Weatherby cause its nice to keep. You saw the pics I posted of the custome .450 Rigby running at .460 Weatherby loads? It has massive stopping power. The CZ/Brno are wonderful workhorses and have made their claim to fame in Africa, there are better rifles .....

The last consideration would be if something happens to you ammo enroute. You will find .458 ammo but will battle with .460. If you are loading then obvioulsy premium bullets are a must.

Kynoch
September 11, 2012, 04:05 AM
I went and did a bit of of work on the .45-70 and found a web page where a chap had taken the big six (Hippo included) with his .45-70. So that was most interesting and I stand corrected on it penetrative ability.

A friend shoots Kudu with a .222, but headshots only and at no more than 100m.

In the right hands some calibres will achieve wonders. The problem is when things go wrong, that is where good shot placement has to make way for some stopping power and frenetic shooting. Saw Johan Calitz shoot a charging Lion from the hip at 5 yds, the calibre stopped the Lion which fell dead on his lower leg. That will give you the adrenaline shakes for a couple of hours.

I think we have side tracked the OP's thread. He simply wanted to know which of the rifles he had posted would be better and was not looking for alternate suggestions.

So given that he is ACTUALLY going to target Buffalo then and that he is comfortable will the handling and recoil of these calibres. Then it would be one of two for me the CZ550 or the Weatherby.

If the rifle will be used once then the CZ550 as it is cheaper (here at least), if this is to be a regular hunt then the Weatherby cause its nice to keep. You saw the pics I posted of the custome .450 Rigby running at .460 Weatherby loads? It has massive stopping power. The CZ/Brno are wonderful workhorses and have made their claim to fame in Africa, there are better rifles .....

The last consideration would be if something happens to you ammo enroute. You will find .458 ammo but will battle with .460. If you are loading then obvioulsy premium bullets are a must.

Thank you so much for recognizing that! I honestly do appreciate it!

Prior to posting I had already settled on a caliber (.458 Win or Lott Mag or Wby. 460) because I have shot all three and I am very comfortable with all three. I listed the rifles (and the calibers) that I did because that's what I have seen on the used or consignment shelves at some gun shops I have visited.

It's very interesting to see the number of votes given to the CZ. I suspect that's largely because it offers such good value for the money. These big boomers are rather odd when it comes to availability and pricing. When I had absolutely no interest in one I remember running across a few at very good prices. We'll see what the next couple of months uncovers. If I run across a smoking hot deal on an old H&H double chambered for 600 NE I'll jump on it, but I'm not holding my breath...

Thanks again.

I'll pay a great deal of attention to making sure my ammo gets to where it needs to go but I won't let it influence my selection in a rifle.

jmr40
September 11, 2012, 06:28 AM
The post-1964 Model 70's do not have controlled "claw feeds" to my knowledge.

Winchesters have been made with CRF since 1994. They still offered their budget guns in PF unitil they closed in 2006, but top end rifles, and anything offered in DG calibers has been CRF since then.

All new production rifles made since moving to South Carolina are CRF. They no longer offer PF as an option.

I'd actually prefer one of the 1994-2006 guns for DG. They went to a different trigger in 2008 that gives smoother factroy pull. The older trigger often need a little gunsmithing to get it smooth, but was the most reliable, rugged trigger ever put on a rifle.

Andrew Leigh
September 11, 2012, 06:33 AM
I have two CZ's and they are value for money. The 30-06 is a 0.75" and less when I do my part and the 6.5X55mm Swede is better. I often shoot with my mates CZ550 .375 and this will be my next rifle. I cannot justify a Buffalo as I am a meat hunter as opposed to trophy (although Buffalo is excellent and makes great Jerky) but it would like the larger calibre for Eland and Blue Wildebeest (and simply to have it).

If I shot more, or professionally then the more exotic rifles and the like would enter the frame. Prices here in South Africa are considerably more than in the States, it is actually quiet soul destroying to see what you boys pay for stuff.

The other reason for the CZ is the Mauser action which has great appeal with PH's due to the controlled feed under duress.

You have a tough choice, they are all great. If it was based on want's vs. needs then the .460 would be the one that I would want. Good luck, it's a large animal notorious for being cantankerous.

HankB
September 12, 2012, 07:42 PM
The Czechs seems to be getting their act together on building a heavy rifle, which is different than building a rifle, but they still have a ways to go.

On my Zambian trip, my PH had a couple of BRNO ZKK rifles - the nice ones with the integral pop-up peep sight in the rear bridge, which I believe are no longer made. Chambered in .375 H&H and .458 Win, neither of these rifles had reinforcing bolts in front of and behind the magazine. When I examined these, I drew the PH's attention to the fact that both of these rifles had incipient cracks in the wood, visible on the bottom in front of and behind the floor plate.

He was a bit shaken - and more than a little PO'd.

I think the new ones have dual crossbolts, and a recoil lug on the barrel ahead of the receiver - both necessities on a heavy rifle. (it may only be the upgraded/custom versions.) Combined with ample (but not excessive) thickness through the wrist of the stock, proper bedding, and good, straight grain, and an extra round or two magazine capacity over most of the competition, they have all the makings of an excellent heavy rifle today, and if I were in the market I'd seriously consider one if the stock fit me correctly. Now, if the barrels just weren't 25" long . . .

Andrew Leigh
September 13, 2012, 03:15 AM
The 550 range fixed this problem as you rightfully pointed out.

H&Hhunter
September 15, 2012, 08:30 PM
Never EVER count on the ability of a PH to shoot your butt out of a dangerous situation. He may not be in the right position to get it done, his rifle might fail or he might just not have the time, training, experience or the skill to make it happen.

I've hunted with a PH in Tanzania who admitted to me right before we closed on a herd of buff that his CZ was "jamming up" on every other shot so "he hoped that we didn't get into any trouble" on this hunt. When I got charged in Zimbabwe in 2004 I stopped my buff at snot slinging range while the PH was trying to reload his rifle. This rookie attitude of shoot whatever you want because you have a PH backing you up is dangerously flawed and just plain ignorant. If you start a fight with a buff or a lion or an elephant you need to be prepared to finish it on your own because stuff happens it happens fast and it is totally variable as to how and at what range it's going to happen or what kind of animal it's going to be. You might well be hunting buff and get charged at close range from a cow elephant, it's happened to me. Good luck with that .45-70 on a frontal brain shot on an elephant BTW. It been proven that it's marginal and totally unreliable with the best ammo out there on frontal shots on elephant.

A .375H&H with a good 300 gr solid will get the job done as will a .416 or a .404 or .458 WM or a Lott or a .470 or a .500 or similar with quality solids. That is why they are considered DG rounds and the .45-70 IS NOT....

Now as far as rifles the CZ has some major issues. They can be fixed but stock CZ 550 is not to be considered DG ready. they are as follows in the heavy recoiling CZ'z the safety has the bad habit of popping on during a shot. Not good, there is a fix and it needs to be done. the CZ is notorious for splitting it's stock also fixable also needs to be done. the one and only CZ I've ever owned was in .458 Lott and it had serious feeding issues when worked hard the other CZ I've seen with serious feeding issues was the one in Tanzania. most recently I've seen two CZ's both in .416 that had the trigger fall off after several hundred rounds. There is a major weak link in the single set trigger mechanism that is causing them to fail.

Of all the rifles mentioned the one and only that I'd look at seriously is the M-70 not a post 64 but either a classic with CRf or new CRF safari rifle in either .375H&H or if DG is on the menu I'd much prefer a .416 rem over either a .375H&h or a .458 WM. Even then make sure it's properly bedded and that you've used it hard for several hundred rounds to find any hidden flaws most rifles have one or two that will rear their ugly heads. You don't want to find out about it during a life or death situation.

I currently own shoot and hunt DG and other stuff with a .375H&H M-70 Classic, a .458 Lott M-70 Classic, a .404 Jeffery in a M-76 Dakota and a .470 NE in a double rifle. If I had just one rifle to use for everything DG it would be the .404. If I was hunting exclusively in thick jesse bush elephant country like the Zambezi Valley it would be the .470 or preferably a .500 double rifle.

I also own a .45-70 lever gun. It's fun, it's useful for brush popping hogs and such but it is not a serious DG rifle. Sure you can kill the biggest DG with it just like you can with a .30-06 but it isn't the best tool for the job.

Good luck on your hunt. Where are you going?

luv2safari
September 15, 2012, 09:25 PM
If this will be your only time over to Africa, get a good 375. A Winchester 70 Safari Classic is a very good choice.

If you'll be going back after dangerous game several times get the same rifle in 416Rem or a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby. Have two scopes for your heavy gun...a fixed 2 1/2 or similar and a good quality 1.5-6 variable. Sight the 2 1/2 in for 75 yards and the 1.5-6 for 200 yards with lighter, faster bullets like a 300-350gr for the 416 for PH hunting as a second gun to your 30cal.

In the 375, a Ruger Safari is a great and economical choice, also. Do the same as with the 416 with whatever 375 you get, if that is the choice.

Mount the scopes in good quality QR mounts, so you can use open sights for very close in work if necessary and for simply having a spare and one for closer work, with the other for longer shots with lighter bullets.

Sorry for the poor photo. It is a scan of a smaller photograph. I took this buffalo with a CZ 550 416 Rigby and swear by the 416. I've also used a drilling in 9,3X74R and an FN action Sako in 375 Wby. If elephant and hippo are on the menue, the 416 is a better choice.

I don't really like the 458 Win much. It isn't flexible like a 375 or 416.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/luv2safari/MASAILANDBUFFALO-LOKISALETANZ001.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/luv2safari/MASAILANDBUFFALO-LOKISALETANZ200-1.png

This one fell to a 9,3mm...
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/luv2safari/MVC-004L-1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/luv2safari/MVC-008L-1.jpg

luv2safari
September 15, 2012, 09:31 PM
If I ever manage to back one more time I'll take one gun...this Fortuna drilling in 12/12/9,3X74R with a 22mag insert and a Hertel & Ruess 2.75-10 scope in claw mounts.

I can kill everything I want with it, from sand grouse to Buffalo.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/luv2safari/058.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/luv2safari/056.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/luv2safari/120-1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/luv2safari/169.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/luv2safari/277.jpg

a-sheepdog
September 15, 2012, 09:39 PM
Ruger M77 in 9.3x62 topped with a good quality 1.5-6x42 scope. No "Big 5" for me, no money or desire. The classic 9.3x62 would do for the game I would go after without beating the snot out of me. I'd also have a great rifle to use when I got back home, not a safe queen that'd get little use.

I agree 100% on the caliber. I have a Ruger Hawkeye African in 9.3x62, outstanding accuracy and easy on the shoulder. If I were to move up from there, 375 H&H would be my next larger caliber and probably the biggest that I could get used to shooting accurately.

I found long ago that I can't shoot the 458 Win Mag without flinching.

Kynoch
September 15, 2012, 11:02 PM
Never EVER count on the ability of a PH to shoot your butt out of a dangerous situation. He may not be in the right position to get it done, his rifle might fail or he might just not have the time, training, experience or the skill to make it happen.

I've hunted with a PH in Tanzania who admitted to me right before we closed on a herd of buff that his CZ was "jamming up" on every other shot so "he hoped that we didn't get into any trouble" on this hunt. When I got charged in Zimbabwe in 2004 I stopped my buff at snot slinging range while the PH was trying to reload his rifle. This rookie attitude of shoot whatever you want because you have a PH backing you up is dangerously flawed and just plain ignorant. If you start a fight with a buff or a lion or an elephant you need to be prepared to finish it on your own because stuff happens it happens fast and it is totally variable as to how and at what range it's going to happen or what kind of animal it's going to be. You might well be hunting buff and get charged at close range from a cow elephant, it's happened to me. Good luck with that .45-70 on a frontal brain shot on an elephant BTW. It been proven that it's marginal and totally unreliable with the best ammo out there on frontal shots on elephant.

A .375H&H with a good 300 gr solid will get the job done as will a .416 or a .404 or .458 WM or a Lott or a .470 or a .500 or similar with quality solids. That is why they are considered DG rounds and the .45-70 IS NOT....

Now as far as rifles the CZ has some major issues. They can be fixed but stock CZ 550 is not to be considered DG ready. they are as follows in the heavy recoiling CZ'z the safety has the bad habit of popping on during a shot. Not good, there is a fix and it needs to be done. the CZ is notorious for splitting it's stock also fixable also needs to be done. the one and only CZ I've ever owned was in .458 Lott and it had serious feeding issues when worked hard the other CZ I've seen with serious feeding issues was the one in Tanzania. most recently I've seen two CZ's both in .416 that had the trigger fall off after several hundred rounds. There is a major weak link in the single set trigger mechanism that is causing them to fail.

Of all the rifles mentioned the one and only that I'd look at seriously is the M-70 not a post 64 but either a classic with CRf or new CRF safari rifle in either .375H&H or if DG is on the menu I'd much prefer a .416 rem over either a .375H&h or a .458 WM. Even then make sure it's properly bedded and that you've used it hard for several hundred rounds to find any hidden flaws most rifles have one or two that will rear their ugly heads. You don't want to find out about it during a life or death situation.

I currently own shoot and hunt DG and other stuff with a .375H&H M-70 Classic, a .458 Lott M-70 Classic, a .404 Jeffery in a M-76 Dakota and a .470 NE in a double rifle. If I had just one rifle to use for everything DG it would be the .404. If I was hunting exclusively in thick jesse bush elephant country like the Zambezi Valley it would be the .470 or preferably a .500 double rifle.

I also own a .45-70 lever gun. It's fun, it's useful for brush popping hogs and such but it is not a serious DG rifle. Sure you can kill the biggest DG with it just like you can with a .30-06 but it isn't the best tool for the job.

Good luck on your hunt. Where are you going?
Thank you for your wonderful post. It's great to hear first hand information from someone who has actually been on an African safari. I am going to South Africa for a total of two weeks. It was one of those packages where other people I know are going and I figured "now is the time."

This is a very interesting thread to me. Take for instance all the votes for the CZ. I suspect many like me are voting from what we have heard without ever shooting of possibly even seeing one in person. Your's and other threads dug deeper and I appreciate it.

Thanks for the mention of the 416 Remington Magnum -- the first on this thread. From what I understand it's an absolutely outstanding round but it's not as cool or historic to talk about as say the .375 H&H.

It's also a challenge to balance the canned advice to what really works. A prime example would be sights. I plan for my DG rifle to have a Trijicon red dot. So many react in a knee-jerk manner and state they would never place their lives in the hands of a sight that required batteries or one that could not take an African safari. Yet some of these sights require no batteries and they survive something far more difficult than a safari -- they survive combat where others shoot back.

Anyway, thanks again. It's much appreciated.

Kynoch
September 15, 2012, 11:05 PM
[QUOTE=luv2safari;8406075]If this will be your only time over to Africa, get a good 375. A Winchester 70 Safari Classic is a very good choice.

If you'll be going back after dangerous game several times get the same rifle in 416Rem or a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby. Have two scopes for your heavy gun...a fixed 2 1/2 or similar and a good quality 1.5-6 variable. Sight the 2 1/2 in for 75 yards and the 1.5-6 for 200 yards with lighter, faster bullets like a 300-350gr for the 416 for PH hunting as a second gun to your 30cal.

In the 375, a Ruger Safari is a great and economical choice, also. Do the same as with the 416 with whatever 375 you get, if that is the choice.

Mount the scopes in good quality DR mounts, so you can use open sights for very close in work if necessary and for simply having a spare and one for closer work, with the other for longer shots with lighter bullets.

Sorry for the poor photo. It is a scan of a smaller photograph. I took this buffalo with a CZ 550 416 Rigby and swear by the 416. I've also used a drilling in 9,3X74R and an FN action Sako in 375 Wby. If elephant and hippo are on the menue, the 416 is a better choice.

I don't really like the 458 Win much. It isn't flexible like a 375 or 416.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/luv2safari/MASAILANDBUFFALO-LOKISALETANZ001.png

Thanks again for the great input. Another vote for the 416 Rem Mag from someone who has been there. Very good to know. Thanks for the advice on the set-up. I really appreciate it.

Kynoch
September 15, 2012, 11:13 PM
I have a question for those who have actually hunted DG. What's the reasoning behind single shot rifles chambered in DG calibers like the Ruger No. 1? Are they actually intended to be used for DG or are they more shooting range conversation pieces?

Is there is reckless machismo that same have that makes them actually prefer a single shot or are there other reasons? This is a serious question. Thanks.

jmr40
September 15, 2012, 11:27 PM
I've not hunted DG, but have a pretty good idea why. A "quality" double is probably the most reliable, and fastest for repeat shots. But most doubles of that quality have 5 figure price tags. For most of us a good bolt rifle is the next best logical choice.

But with practiced hands a single shot is surprisingly fast for followup shots, especially with heavy recoiling rifles. Guys who really know their guns can shoot a bolt rifle just as fast as a lever, but not everyone can master a bolt gun and would do just as well with a single shot. A quality single shot can be had for under $1,000 and is just as dependable as a double costing 10X as much, just a little slower for repeat shots.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I much prefer a bolt gun and value reliability and durability above all else. A CRF bolt gun is my 1st choice, but given a choice between a quality single shot or a big bore lever in 45-70, would take the single shot.

luv2safari
September 15, 2012, 11:39 PM
In all reality, I like to have a second shot, but remember you're hunting with a PH with a stopper in his hands and probably another hunter with something adequate in his.

For DG my first choice as the client hunter is a good and proven CRF bolt gun with a low power scope. It's your responsibility to have mastered the gun and the round of choice BEFORE you get on the plane.

I can reload a drilling rimmed round pretty fast, but not as fast as using a bolt gun or double rifle.

As to the post about the 9,3X62 in Hawkeye African, some countries will frown on it, but you almost never have a problem using it once in camp and you have shown you can hit where you need to with it. It is ballistically the same as the 9,3X74R...no difference at all.

The advantage of my using the 9,3X74R is I can bluff game scouts into believing it is a 375 Flanged magnum. :rolleyes:

In the drilling having two magnum rifled slugs in both shotgun barrels adds a small measure of extra firepower; I'm trying to develop a slug with deep penetration capabilities right now that would enhance the effectiveness of a shotgun at close ranges.

brandonc
September 15, 2012, 11:56 PM
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

This is an interesting article where the penetration of the 45-70 is compared to the .458 magnums. The author finds the 45-70 out penetrates them due to the lower speed causing less explosive deceleration.

H&Hhunter
September 16, 2012, 12:23 AM
This is an interesting article where the penetration of the 45-70 is compared to the .458 magnums. The author finds the 45-70 out penetrates them due to the lower speed causing less explosive deceleration.

Very few people are killed while hunting wet newspaper. I have however seen with my own two eyes a 500 gr Woodleigh solid launched from a .458 lott at 2250 FPS hit a buffalo bull from behind break the massive hip joint, rake forward through the guts, the diaphragm, the heart and lungs penetrate the massive muscles of the neck and stop under the skin of the neck just below the jaw.

I've also recovered 500 gr solids from a .470 that gave full length penetration front to rear on a buffalo. I've read of guys recovering 500 gr solids from a .450 Rigby under the skin of the hind quarters after making a frontal brain shot on a cow elephant. That's correct, full length penetration on an elephant after the bullet smashed through the skull length wise, front to rear.

While I do not belittle the penetrative abilities of a 500 gr bullet at 1500 FPS or less on wet newspaper. They do not tend to show that type of penetration on large game after hitting heavy bone. In any case the .45-70 is not and never will be in the same category as a true heavy rifle when it comes to bone smashing, stopping ability.

Water-Man
September 16, 2012, 12:29 AM
I'd like to take a Weatherby .378.

Kynoch
September 16, 2012, 02:28 AM
I've not hunted DG, but have a pretty good idea why. A "quality" double is probably the most reliable, and fastest for repeat shots. But most doubles of that quality have 5 figure price tags. For most of us a good bolt rifle is the next best logical choice.

But with practiced hands a single shot is surprisingly fast for followup shots, especially with heavy recoiling rifles. Guys who really know their guns can shoot a bolt rifle just as fast as a lever, but not everyone can master a bolt gun and would do just as well with a single shot. A quality single shot can be had for under $1,000 and is just as dependable as a double costing 10X as much, just a little slower for repeat shots.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I much prefer a bolt gun and value reliability and durability above all else. A CRF bolt gun is my 1st choice, but given a choice between a quality single shot or a big bore lever in 45-70, would take the single shot.

I'm not sure that's the case. While some can shoot singles and doubles very quickly (holding rounds between their left fingers, etc.) that takes a lot more practice and dexterity to master than learning how to cycle a bolt action gun halfway decently. Decently enough in other words to even be facing DG to begin with.

Kynoch
September 16, 2012, 02:35 AM
In all reality, I like to have a second shot, but remember you're hunting with a PH with a stopper in his hands and probably another hunter with something adequate in his.

For DG my first choice as the client hunter is a good and proven CRF bolt gun with a low power scope. It's your responsibility to have mastered the gun and the round of choice BEFORE you get on the plane.

I can reload a drilling rimmed round pretty fast, but not as fast as using a bolt gun or double rifle.

As to the post about the 9,3X62 in Hawkeye African, some countries will frown on it, but you almost never have a problem using it once in camp and you have shown you can hit where you need to with it. It is ballistically the same as the 9,3X74R...no difference at all.

The advantage of my using the 9,3X74R is I can bluff game scouts into believing it is a 375 Flanged magnum. :rolleyes:

In the drilling having two magnum rifled slugs in both shotgun barrels adds a small measure of extra firepower; I'm trying to develop a slug with deep penetration capabilities right now that would enhance the effectiveness of a shotgun at close ranges.

How does that compare with:

Never EVER count on the ability of a PH to shoot your butt out of a dangerous situation. He may not be in the right position to get it done, his rifle might fail or he might just not have the time, training, experience or the skill to make it happen.

...This rookie attitude of shoot whatever you want because you have a PH backing you up is dangerously flawed and just plain ignorant. If you start a fight with a buff or a lion or an elephant you need to be prepared to finish it on your own because stuff happens it happens fast and it is totally variable as to how and at what range it's going to happen or what kind of animal it's going to be.

This can really get confusing after a while. In the end I guess one gathers all the opinions they can from people who have actually hunted DG and form their own opinions based on their own distillation.

sixgunner455
September 16, 2012, 05:23 AM
How does that compare with:

It's two opinions, based on their individual experience.

Ultimately, you'll have to decide what your priorities are, make your decision, pay your money, and live with the consequences. Just like with every other hunting rifle purchase. :D

This is a very interesting thread, has been from the beginning. I doubt I'll ever make it to Africa to hunt (went once, but hunting was not on the agenda), but I guess I'll live those trips vicariously, reading about those who do.

CraigC
September 16, 2012, 10:47 AM
Never EVER count on the ability of a PH to shoot your butt out of a dangerous situation.
I don't know why 'some' folks believe otherwise. It's often used as an indictment against the hunter or a particular firearm/cartridge.

Kynoch
September 16, 2012, 11:39 AM
It's two opinions, based on their individual experience.

Ultimately, you'll have to decide what your priorities are, make your decision, pay your money, and live with the consequences. Just like with every other hunting rifle purchase.

This is a very interesting thread, has been from the beginning. I doubt I'll ever make it to Africa to hunt (went once, but hunting was not on the agenda), but I guess I'll live those trips vicariously, reading about those who do.

How can they be so diametrically opposed though? It's reasonable to suggest that a bolt-action or double have an intrinsic advantage over a single. It's a big enough advantage that I wouldn't even consider a single unless the were extraneous reasons to do so (ex. I already owned a single, I can borrow a single that I am comfortable with, etc.) That's why I'm trying to "quantify" how big the advantage is. And no, it's not as simple as "how much is your life worth", else people would be lugging around quad barreled or semi-auto (where allowed) rifles.

Now I'm curious. Why not ever African country would allow one, does anyone make a semi-auto chambered for a DG round?

H&Hhunter
September 16, 2012, 11:45 AM
It's often used as an indictment against the hunter or a particular firearm/cartridge.

Plain and simple it means that you need to have the skill, the mind set and the equipment to be able to take care of yourself.

Hunting with a PH is much like mountain climbing with a guide. The guide can show you the best route and give you advice, but you still have to have the fitness level that allows you to summit the mountain whether it be a 14'er in Colorado or Mt Everest.

I can promise you that anybody who still thinks they can count on a PH to dig their butts out of trouble 100% of the time has never been in a serious close range charge situation where things went sideways.

H&Hhunter
September 16, 2012, 11:52 AM
How can they be so diametrically opposed though? It's reasonable to suggest that a bolt-action or double have an intrinsic advantage over a single. It's a big enough advantage that I wouldn't even consider a single unless the were extraneous reasons to do so (ex. I already owned a single, I can borrow a single that I am comfortable with, etc.) That's why I'm trying to "quantify" how big the advantage is. And no, it's not as simple as "how much is your life worth", else people would be lugging around quad barreled or semi-auto (where allowed) rifles.

Now I'm curious. Why not ever African country would allow one, does anyone make a semi-auto chambered for a DG round?

As far as I know there isn't a single African country that allows semi autos for hunting. I could be wrong but I don't know of any. Our opinions are diametrically opposed because I've been in a situation where I had to shoot my own way out of a thumping with severe injury or possibly death as a result of failure. I'm guessing that the other guys hasn't.

That being said you don't need a double rifle. A good bolt gun with right set up for sights is almost as good and more useful for 99% of the hunting/shooting you'll be doing. that 1% when you NEED a double is the time when it becomes invaluable.

As far as single shots go I wouldn't hunt DG with one. But there are guys who do it.

Kynoch
September 16, 2012, 11:54 AM
This semi-auto is chambered in .505 Gibbs. The Gibbs is an awesome, physically large round. I could handle the weight of this rifle, but not the price. I'm also not sure how proven they are in DG hunting:

http://www.vigilancerifles.com/images/576_505_Gibbs_5_shot_Semi-Auto.jpg

Kynoch
September 16, 2012, 11:56 AM
As far as I know there isn't a single African country that allows semi autos for hunting. I could be wrong but I don't know of any. Our opinions are diametrically opposed because I've been in a situation where I had to shoot my own way out of a thumping with severe injury or possibly death as a result of failure. I'm guessing that the other guys hasn't.

That being said you don't need a double rifle. A good bolt gun with right set up for sights is almost as good and more useful for 99% of the hunting/shooting you'll be doing. that 1% when you NEED a double is the time when it becomes invaluable.

As far as single shots go I wouldn't hunt DG with one. But there are guys who do it.

Yeap, that would do it. Thanks again for the additional inputs.

H&Hhunter
September 16, 2012, 01:24 PM
One of the elements of a good dangerous game rifle, whether bolt or double or whatever is that it needs to be well balanced with the weight in between the hands. It needs to have a fast light feel, despite the weight and it must fit the shooter properly.

It needs to have a good fast feel for snap shooting. Which is why these gargantuan rifles like the Gibbs pictured above and .50 BMG's are not viable or realistic rifles to be used in true close range DG hunting.

You could always snipe your elephant or buffalo from a vantage point at long range with one of these but at what point do we remove the "dangerous" from dangerous game? You might as well just rent a helicopter with a door gun and start laying waste to these wonderful animals. There is a huge difference from killing and hunting here.

I'll use the Mountain climbing analogy. You could charter a helicopter and have them drop you off on all 100 + (or whatever number there is) of 14'ers in Colorado. You could claim victory over the peaks in a matter of days. But that is totally different than climbing them the proper way on foot, suffering the pain and toil and preparing yourself physically and mentally and taking the risks, and having the proper gear to summit these mountains. Only then have you truly gained victory in your quest. Wouldn't you agree?

Just like elephant hunting or buffalo hunting. The only proper way to do it is on foot at close range after multiple miles and multiple stalks having risked life and limb and sweated buckets in the sub tropical heat. Until you've experienced a close range, ear shattering, heart stopping elephant charge or bumped a lion in the thick brush and come face to face with a hippo, maybe spent some time running for your life you haven't truly experienced what African dangerous game hunting is. You need to work and suffer a bit for these trophies to make them worth while.

That's my take on it anyway. And it's why I prefer to hunt with an iron sighted heavy rifle. It forces you to work for and earn your animals. Your mileage may vary.

Kynoch
September 17, 2012, 04:56 PM
One of the elements of a good dangerous game rifle, whether bolt or double or whatever is that it needs to be well balanced with the weight in between the hands. It needs to have a fast light feel, despite the weight and it must fit the shooter properly.

That makes a lot of sense.

It needs to have a good fast feel for snap shooting. Which is why these gargantuan rifles like the Gibbs pictured above and .50 BMG's are not viable or realistic rifles to be used in true close range DG hunting.

It actually seems like a couple of the 50 BMG carbines would be well suited for hunting in this case except most are single shot. On the other hand the Serbu 50a seems like it might well fit the bill except it's a semi-auto and probably not allowed in most African countries.

You could always snipe your elephant or buffalo from a vantage point at long range with one of these but at what point do we remove the "dangerous" from dangerous game? You might as well just rent a helicopter with a door gun and start laying waste to these wonderful animals. There is a huge difference from killing and hunting here.

That brings up a great point. What is a cricket distance to shoot DG?

I'll use the Mountain climbing analogy. You could charter a helicopter and have them drop you off on all 100 + (or whatever number there is) of 14'ers in Colorado. You could claim victory over the peaks in a matter of days. But that is totally different than climbing them the proper way on foot, suffering the pain and toil and preparing yourself physically and mentally and taking the risks, and having the proper gear to summit these mountains. Only then have you truly gained victory in your quest. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, now that you mention it. Would it be cricket to pop an elephant at 200 yards or must the mighty beast be a lot close?

Just like elephant hunting or buffalo hunting. The only proper way to do it is on foot at close range after multiple miles and multiple stalks having risked life and limb and sweated buckets in the sub tropical heat. Until you've experienced a close range, ear shattering, heart stopping elephant charge or bumped a lion in the thick brush and come face to face with a hippo, maybe spent some time running for your life you haven't truly experienced what African dangerous game hunting is. You need to work and suffer a bit for these trophies to make them worth while.

Yes -- so long as the suffering does not become too intense. up too and including death.

That's my take on it anyway. And it's why I prefer to hunt with an iron sighted heavy rifle. It forces you to work for and earn your animals. Your mileage may vary.

Good point. I am a big fan of passive/mil red dots myself. Thanks again for another of your great posts.

Grumulkin
September 17, 2012, 05:29 PM
Actually, I'm of the opinion that it's dumb to insist on close range shots on dangerous animals. Of course you have to be close enough to pretty much guarantee a fatal shot but I don't think that means you have to get within 20 yards and do a frontal brain shot on an elephant to be fulfilled; I could be just as happy with a less intense 100 yard heart/lung shot.

I'm also very disenchanted by the "collaboration" that occurs frequently in dangerous game hunting where the PH shoots at the same time or shortly after the hunter who has paid for the hunt. I guess they do that since they are so stupidly close that they're afraid they'll be killed if they don't let the animal have everything they've got from two guns.

CraigC
September 17, 2012, 05:44 PM
Actually, I'm of the opinion that it's dumb to insist on close range shots on dangerous animals.
Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose???

Kynoch
September 17, 2012, 06:23 PM
Bell who?? He did what with a .275 Rigby?;)


I keep forgetting to answer this. ;)

You're speaking of Walter Dalrymple Maitland "Karamojo" Bell.

He used to pop elephants at very close range with small caliber rifles -- the famous "Bell Shot."

Bell was either a lot braver or crazier than I am. Probably a bit of both. I have absolutely no desire to apply the "Bell Shot" in an actual safari.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._D._M._Bell

Kynoch
September 17, 2012, 06:28 PM
Actually, I'm of the opinion that it's dumb to insist on close range shots on dangerous animals. Of course you have to be close enough to pretty much guarantee a fatal shot but I don't think that means you have to get within 20 yards and do a frontal brain shot on an elephant to be fulfilled; I could be just as happy with a less intense 100 yard heart/lung shot.

I'm also very disenchanted by the "collaboration" that occurs frequently in dangerous game hunting where the PH shoots at the same time or shortly after the hunter who has paid for the hunt. I guess they do that since they are so stupidly close that they're afraid they'll be killed if they don't let the animal have everything they've got from two guns.

Firing on a Cape Buffalo (and other game) at 100 yards could still prove to be very "lively" -- especially if one missed on their first shot...

CraigC
September 17, 2012, 08:08 PM
W.D.M. Bell lived in a time long gone, the rest of us can only dream of a life such as his or others like Frederick Courteney Selous. Those guys literally killed hundreds of elephants, not to mention others. Like J.D. Jones says, you learn a lot from killin'. The men certainly got separated from the boys.

luv2safari
September 17, 2012, 10:47 PM
Kyonch,

Actually he and I agree in essence; there is nothing that is a better choice than something with two or more fast shots in your hands.

I wanted to point out there is a measure of mitigation in having back up with big bores.

Things go south real fast sometimes. Clients often choke when it happens, too, but not usually or as a rule. Sometimes PHs make poor choices, too. Sometimes seemingly perfect hits get little immediate results, as is the case with buffalo more than one would want.

If I were asked point blank about using any single shot on dangerous game, or even on animals like Gehmsbok and Sable, which have attitudes, I would always say choose a good quality bolt rifle in something you're not afraid of, like a 375, and get to know the rifle and round WELL! Use good bullets like Barnes, Swift, or Noslers.

The two buffalo I shot with 9,3X74R in my drilling and BBF were ones of opportunity while I was chasing plains game.

This gets around to something else here, also. Many hunters have encountered a once in a lifetime chance at an exceptional animal, but they were hunting smaller stuff and had some sort of 300 in their hands. I'd tell you to get a 375 and use it for everything while on a combination DG/PG safari. A 416 is also very good for this. Actually, for me personally I prefer a 416 in whatever...Rigby, Ruger, Remington...they are all the same out the end of the barrel. They do shake up many shooters more than they can handle, however. Since I'm old and numb and dumb, I have little problem with them...notice I said little, not "no". :D

CommanderCrusty
September 17, 2012, 11:06 PM
If I was going to hunt big game in Africa, I would bing a digital SLR, probably a Canon Rebel, a couple of long lenses, and a 12 guage Remington Versa Max or SP10 as backup.

Kynoch
September 17, 2012, 11:19 PM
Kyonch,

Actually he and I agree in essence; there is nothing that is a better choice than something with two or more fast shots in your hands.

I wanted to point out there is a measure of mitigation in having back up with big bores.

Things go south real fast sometimes. Clients often choke when it happens, too, but not usually or as a rule. Sometimes PHs make poor choices, too. Sometimes seemingly perfect hits get little immediate results, as is the case with buffalo more than one would want.

If I were asked point blank about using any single shot on dangerous game, or even on animals like Gehmsbok and Sable, which have attitudes, I would always say choose a good quality bolt rifle in something you're not afraid of, like a 375, and get to know the rifle and round WELL! Use good bullets like Barnes, Swift, or Noslers.

The two buffalo I shot with 9,3X74R in my drilling and BBF were ones of opportunity while I was chasing plains game.

This gets around to something else here, also. Many hunters have encountered a once in a lifetime chance at an exceptional animal, but they were hunting smaller stuff and had some sort of 300 in their hands. I'd tell you to get a 375 and use it for everything while on a combination DG/PG safari. A 416 is also very good for this. Actually, for me personally I prefer a 416 in whatever...Rigby, Ruger, Remington...they are all the same out the end of the barrel. They do shake up many shooters more than they can handle, however. Since I'm old and numb and dumb, I have little problem with them...notice I said little, not "no". :D

As I said earlier I'll likely purchase something that I find on a used shelf or consignment shelf of a gun shop that fits me well. I have experience and feel comfortable with shooting the 458 Lott/Win Mags. and the 460 Wby Mag so that's my focus. After doing some research I think my first choice would be a 416 Rem. Mag so we'll see what turns up that actually fits in the next couple of months.

Grumulkin
September 18, 2012, 06:30 AM
Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose???
No, it doesn't defeat the purpose.

What would defeat the purpose for me is paying a lot of money to hunt an animal and then have someone else shoot it.

Kyle M.
September 18, 2012, 06:58 AM
Something in .375 H&H, it will take anything on earth without ever being too much gun and rarely too little. Also I feel anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately, once you go bigger than that alot of people can't overcome a flinch.

CraigC
September 18, 2012, 07:10 AM
No, it doesn't defeat the purpose.
To stand at a distance and snipe at "dangerous game" takes the "dangerous" part out of the equation. The whole point of dangerous game hunting is that it's, uh, dangerous.


What would defeat the purpose for me is paying a lot of money to hunt an animal and then have someone else shoot it.
Who said anything about someone else shooting it???????

Skyshot
September 18, 2012, 07:24 AM
375 h&h

H&Hhunter
September 18, 2012, 11:44 AM
This what I enjoy about hunting and hunters. There is no absolute right way to do it. There are some definite wrong ways to do it on dangerous game especially like using an inadequate caliber at close range that stuff can get you killed on the big stuff. But whether you want to get up to danger close range or wait for a 100 yard shot it's all about your preference and how you like to hunt. And it's all good.

If I had an 80 pounder or a 48" hard bossed bull dead to rights at 100 or even 200 yards in the right circumstances with the right rifle and that was my shot opportunity you bet I'd take it, in fact I have before, you take the ethical shot that you are presented with when it happens, that is how it usually goes down in the real world. I like to get close but it isn't always an option, just like shooting at longer ranges isn't always an option. Depending on where you are hunting many times your only option is to get in close very close Elephants in the Zambezi early season are a prime example of that. So I like to be flexible enough in my skills and equipment to be able to handle anything that comes about.

Different strokes is what keeps it interesting.

I do have one question for all of the guys who are unequivocally recommending the .375H&H. How much dangerous game hunting have you done and how many buffalo or elephant have you killed with a .357H&H? The reason that I ask is that the majority of folks who hunt Africa for a time myself included will generally trade in their .375's as a primary rifle for a .416 or some 40 cal + round at some point. And that point is usually after their first ugly encounter at close range with a big nasty. I am just curious if you are recommending the .375H&H based on real world experience or stuff that you've read.

Kynoch
September 18, 2012, 03:14 PM
This what I enjoy about hunting and hunters. There is no absolute right way to do it. There are some definite wrong ways to do it on dangerous game especially like using an inadequate caliber at close range that stuff can get you killed on the big stuff. But whether you want to get up to danger close range or wait for a 100 yard shot it's all about your preference and how you like to hunt. And it's all good.

If I had an 80 pounder or a 48" hard bossed bull dead to rights at 100 or even 200 yards in the right circumstances with the right rifle and that was my shot opportunity you bet I'd take it, in fact I have before, you take the ethical shot that you are presented with when it happens, that is how it usually goes down in the real world. I like to get close but it isn't always an option, just like shooting at longer ranges isn't always an option. Depending on where you are hunting many times your only option is to get in close very close Elephants in the Zambezi early season are a prime example of that. So I like to be flexible enough in my skills and equipment to be able to handle anything that comes about.

Different strokes is what keeps it interesting.

I do have one question for all of the guys who are unequivocally recommending the .375H&H. How much dangerous game hunting have you done and how many buffalo or elephant have you killed with a .357H&H? The reason that I ask is that the majority of folks who hunt Africa for a time myself included will generally trade in their .375's as a primary rifle for a .416 or some 40 cal + round at some point. And that point is usually after their first ugly encounter at close range with a big nasty. I am just curious if you are recommending the .375H&H based on real world experience or stuff that you've read.

I really enjoy reading your postings. The one thing I am absolutely certain of is that I will not purchase a rifle chambered in .375 HHM. While it's a fine caliber with a truly old school heritage it has its limitations as you point out. It's not the "single caliber for all uses" as Internet lore would suggest. I think many, many people who have never shot a big bore at the range, much less on safari have bought the 375 HHM myth. :banghead: (The head banging is in response to posting #2 of this thread.)

The more I read the more I think the 416 Rem Mag is going to be my first choice. We'll see what shows up.

I think the same might be the case for CZ rifles. Almost invariably when I read a first-hand safari account where someone brought a long a CZ, they ran into trouble, from trivial to not so trivial. While CZ seems to offer great bang for the buck I am just a little bit weary. That's too bad too because my favorite cartridge of all is the .505 Gibbs and they are one of the few that camber for it.

Kyle M.
September 18, 2012, 04:42 PM
edit

luv2safari
September 18, 2012, 08:39 PM
Kynoch,

Your choice of the 416 Rem is about as good a choice as you could make for an all around African rifle, IMO.

I was generalizing about most hunters, when I suggested a 375, as most would handle it better with the jump from little pills out of 30 cals. to something on the low side of big.

If you handle a 458 Win well the 416 Rem will resemble it quite a lot. It will smack a bit faster, where the 458 pushes hard in my experience, but all things being equal, I don't think you'll find much difference between the two on your end of the rifle. :D

Had CZ offered the 416Rem, instead of the Rigby, I'd have gone with the Rem hands down.

Kynoch
September 18, 2012, 08:44 PM
Kynoch,

Your choice of the 416 Rem is about as good a choice as you could make for an all around African rifle, IMO.

I was generalizing about most hunters, when I suggested a 375, as most would handle it better with the jump from little pills out of 30 cals. to something on the low side of big.

If you handle a 458 Win well the 416 Rem will resemble it quite a lot. It will smack a bit faster, where the 458 pushes hard in my experience, but all things being equal, I don't think you'll find much difference between the two on your end of the rifle. :D

Had CZ offered the 416Rem, instead of the Rigby, I'd have gone with the Rem hands down.

We'll have to see what shows up. The 458 WM and the 375 HHM are by far (in my experience) the most common DG calibers to show up on used and consignment racks. That makes sense given how long both have been in production. Because the recoil of the 458 WM does not bother me, I would choose it over the 375 HHM.

TrickyDick
September 25, 2012, 09:00 PM
.950 jdj

HankB
September 26, 2012, 06:28 AM
I do have one question for all of the guys who are unequivocally recommending the .375H&H. How much dangerous game hunting have you done and how many buffalo or elephant have you killed with a .357H&H? Limited - a hippo, 2 cape buffalo and 1 lion. (I shot my leopard with a .30/06). No problem.

I'm far from an "expert" . . . maybe some would say I have just enough experience to be dangerous, and I couldn't argue. ;)

But a lot of people with a lot more experience than I'll ever have also like the .375 for dangerous game.

I see nothing wrong with using a .416, .458, or .470 if you like . . . but for a typical sportsman of today who will have limited African hunting opportunities, a .375 he can shoot well, loaded with good ammo, is a good choice.

H&Hhunter
September 26, 2012, 03:47 PM
but for a typical sportsman of today who will have limited African hunting opportunities, a .375 he can shoot well, loaded with good ammo, is a good choice.

It's a GREAT choice. However depending on where and what you are hunting IE dangerous game in the thick jesse of the Zambezi that is infested with PO'ed cow elephant I think one of the .416's or a .404 is a better choice. In fact if thick skinned DG is the primary goal I think it's a better choice anyway.

There is no right or wrong answer here this just my $.02.

Kynoch
September 28, 2012, 12:18 AM
I'm really not sure why anyone would push the .375 so hard? Seems like programmed lore more than anything. Sure, if one got a really good deal or was given a rifle chambered in .375 then it might be the way to go but otherwise what's the big advantage over say a .416 Remington or a .458 Lott?

It's certainly not ballistics. Recoil? Really? That's not a factor -- at least in my case. What else? Ammo availability? C'mon... What else?

Kynoch
September 28, 2012, 12:20 AM
I'm really not sure why anyone would push the .375 so hard? Seems like programmed lore more than anything? Sure, if one got a really good deal or was given a rifle chambered in .375 then it might be the way to go but otherwise what's the big advantage over say a .416 Remington or a .458 Lott?

It's certainly not ballistics. Recoil? Really? That's not a factor -- at least in my case. What else? Ammo availability? C'mon... What else?

H&Hhunter
September 28, 2012, 09:59 AM
C'mon... What else?

The .375H&H offers a much flatter and more useable trajectory for use in long range plains game hunting. Or DG hunting. It allows for those 150 and even 200 yard buff shots that occasionally present themselves on a once in a lifetime trophy bull.

So however does a .416 and it does so with a greater authority than a .375H&H. A .458 Lott becomes a bit tricky over say 150 yards or so though I have done it in the past on several back up shots.

CraigC
September 29, 2012, 10:24 AM
Seems like programmed lore more than anything?
It's not unlike the .30-06 strokefest going on in the other thread. Except that some actually do recognize the .375's limitations on the bigger critters.

HankB
September 29, 2012, 12:53 PM
I'm really not sure why anyone would push the .375 so hard?Let's face it, 99%+ of the folks who will hunt Africa at all will not be making a career as African pachyderm hunters - in fact, a great many may only make it to Africa once or twice in a lifetime, so the .375's versatility makes it a more sensible choice for most folks than a real heavy.

Ammo availability is a consideration; on my few trips I haven't had a problem, but I've met folks whose guns arrived but whose ammo was delayed; there's some chance of finding .375 or .458 ammo over there but the chances of finding .416 or .470 are somewhat less.

Someone who makes annual or semi-annual trips to the Dark Continent after the Big Five will have a different perspective . . . but then again, that person won't be seeking advice from forums like this.

If a person wants to and can handle the extra recoil, there's nothing wrong with a good rifle shooting a .416, .458, .470 or larger round. But as I stated earlier, for a visiting sportsman whose African hunting will be limited, a .375 is a good choice.

BigG
September 29, 2012, 04:04 PM
Win Model 70 375 H&H as many others have already said.

Kynoch
September 30, 2012, 01:39 AM
The .375H&H offers a much flatter and more useable trajectory for use in long range plains game hunting. Or DG hunting. It allows for those 150 and even 200 yard buff shots that occasionally present themselves on a once in a lifetime trophy bull.

So however does a .416 and it does so with a greater authority than a .375H&H. A .458 Lott becomes a bit tricky over say 150 yards or so though I have done it in the past on several back up shots.
I really appreciate the input and I agree with your comments. However I don't think it's the reason for the plethora of recommendations for the .375 on this forum.

Kynoch
September 30, 2012, 01:41 AM
Win Model 70 375 H&H as many others have already said.
No thanks, as I already said.

Kynoch
September 30, 2012, 01:44 AM
I really appreciate this forum and I have learned a great deal but I think the last rifle I would buy from what I listed is the CZ 550 based on what I have read here and elsewhere since I created this thread. Same for the .375 HHM chambering.

finnwolf64
September 30, 2012, 08:56 AM
Then maybe you should re-read the replies, re-look at your poll results & refer to post #2:neener:

CraigC
September 30, 2012, 10:47 AM
However I don't think it's the reason for the plethora of recommendations for the .375 on this forum.
No, H&H gave the real reason. Most others are just repeating what they've heard. Not that the .375 is not a capable cartridge. It's better than it ever was with modern bullets but if I'm buying a rifle to take on a dangerous game hunt (other than lions and leopards), it'll be at least a .40 caliber. When you're spending big money on your trip anyway, the cost of a new rifle (unless it's a custom or handmade British elegance) is really a fraction of the overall investment. So get the most you can handle and practice, practice, practice. Your life just might depend on it. If it's your only trip to the dark continent, they make great deer/hog guns with gas checked cast bullets loaded to moderate velocities.

Kynoch
September 30, 2012, 11:12 AM
What do you think made me reject the CZ and the 375?

Kynoch
September 30, 2012, 11:15 AM
Let's face it, 99%+ of the folks who will hunt Africa at all will not be making a career as African pachyderm hunters - in fact, a great many may only make it to Africa once or twice in a lifetime, so the .375's versatility makes it a more sensible choice for most folks than a real heavy.

Ammo availability is a consideration; on my few trips I haven't had a problem, but I've met folks whose guns arrived but whose ammo was delayed; there's some chance of finding .375 or .458 ammo over there but the chances of finding .416 or .470 are somewhat less.

Someone who makes annual or semi-annual trips to the Dark Continent after the Big Five will have a different perspective . . . but then again, that person won't be seeking advice from forums like this.

If a person wants to and can handle the extra recoil, there's nothing wrong with a good rifle shooting a .416, .458, .470 or larger round. But as I stated earlier, for a visiting sportsman whose African hunting will be limited, a .375 is a good choice.

What versatility? A .4xx isn't going to cost any more. And the recoil (at least to me is not significantly different.) Where exactly in the Americas would someone make use of a .375 HHM after going to Africa on safari and not a .458 Lott Mag for instance?

HankB
September 30, 2012, 09:14 PM
Carry a .375 for, say, Cape buffalo, and if you see a 60" kudu 300 yards across a river bed and you're probably in better shape to take him than if you're carrying a .458 Lott. That's what I mean by versatility. Get separated from your ammo, and you're more likely to find .375 locally. Go to Alaska after grizzly or Kodiak bear, and a .375 is a fine choice - perhaps better than a .458 for reasons already mentioned unless you're in very dense brush.

If you simply want a larger round, I say go for it; the .458 Lott in particular is a good choice since, in a pinch, you can use .458 Win Mag in it. If I knew - knew! - that I'd be making a habit of shooting only elephant in thick cover, I might go to something like that myself.

JRWhit
September 30, 2012, 09:16 PM
no nitro

Kynoch
October 2, 2012, 04:05 AM
Carry a .375 for, say, Cape buffalo, and if you see a 60" kudu 300 yards across a river bed and you're probably in better shape to take him than if you're carrying a .458 Lott. That's what I mean by versatility. Get separated from your ammo, and you're more likely to find .375 locally. Go to Alaska after grizzly or Kodiak bear, and a .375 is a fine choice - perhaps better than a .458 for reasons already mentioned unless you're in very dense brush.

If you simply want a larger round, I say go for it; the .458 Lott in particular is a good choice since, in a pinch, you can use .458 Win Mag in it. If I knew - knew! - that I'd be making a habit of shooting only elephant in thick cover, I might go to something like that myself.

I wouldn't shoot a CB with a .375 HHM, but that's just me personally.

.458 Winchester Magnum ammo has been around for 50 years. It's not a rare wildcat that's any less ubiquitous than the 375 HHM, even in Africa. I would indeed prefer the Lott over the WM but I'll have to see what's available.

gunner69
October 3, 2012, 12:10 AM
The 9.3x62 is my favorite large game rifle. It started out in 1908 and is as good today as it was back then. You will be able to find ammo for it most anywhere large game is shot. I hand load for it myself as I save quite a lot of $$$$ by doing so. Very efficient round and it won't jar you teeth out of their sockets when you touch it off. It has been and is a favorite of African hunters.

H&Hhunter
October 3, 2012, 08:26 AM
It has been and is a favorite of African hunters.

Until recently the only countries it legal to use for DG hunting was Zimbabwe and South Africa.

45crittergitter
October 6, 2012, 03:18 PM
Something other than a .458. :)

Certaindeaf
October 6, 2012, 07:14 PM
Something other than a .458. :)
Why wouldn't you want 5000+ft/lbs? Maybe clue me in here.

Kynoch
October 8, 2012, 03:54 AM
Why wouldn't you want 5000+ft/lbs? Maybe clue me in here.
Some people just have the desire/need to pollute wonderful threads...

Certaindeaf
October 8, 2012, 12:56 PM
Yea, I hear you. For one, yep, I'm jealous and wish I could go too!
Would I could, I'd feel pretty good with a ghost ringed and ivoryish front .458WM bolt gun with not a backward safety. That's for sure.

luv2safari
October 8, 2012, 11:46 PM
The CZ 602 has the backassward safety. I like the hog-back CZ 550 in 416 Rigby and used it on buffalo with excellent results.

That being said, I also killed two just as dead with combo guns with one 9,3 barrel. I sure felt more confident after the first bang having the 416 in hand than with the single shot 9,3X74R. My PH used a 416 Rem as his back up gun for the hunt, which speaks well of the 416 Rigby, Rem, Ruger... ;)

I now carry a rifle I love, a Sako-FN action in 375 Wby. I use 350s for heavy game and have a second scope sighted in for 260 AccuBonds at 250 yards for PG.

Scipio Africanus
October 22, 2012, 02:36 AM
I bought a CZ 550 in .458 Lott. It was advertised for a price that I could not pass up.

It had no cross bolts on the stock. It took exactly 17 rounds before the stock broke. CZ replaced the stock for free. Now it has cross bolts. The trigger disengaged after 15 rounds. Fixed that, haven't had any more problems there.

Otherwise, it has been very accurate. The action is not particulalry smooth. You get what you pay for...

H&Hhunter
October 22, 2012, 09:45 AM
bought a CZ 550 in .458 Lott. It was advertised for a price that I could not pass up.

It had no cross bolts on the stock. It took exactly 17 rounds before the stock broke. CZ replaced the stock for free. Now it has cross bolts. The trigger disengaged after 15 rounds. Fixed that, haven't had any more problems there.

Otherwise, it has been very accurate. The action is not particulalry smooth. You get what you pay for...

My experience exactly with the big bore CZ's. They can be made into a fine rifle but they take a bit of smiting before they are ready for hunting. I've now seen three of them that have had the triggers fail and they will ALL crack the stock without proper cross bolting and bedding.

Here's another one you need to be aware of on the CZ. The safety can and WILL engage to the safe position during recoil in the big bores. There is a simple fix for it but it is essential that it's done before hunting DG with a CZ rifle.

Kynoch
November 18, 2012, 04:14 AM
I wanted to report back with my purchase. It's a Japanese made Weatherby Mark V in 460 WM. I'm not certain it would have been my first choice but it came at a price that I just couldn't walk away from.

It was originally bought for a safari some years ago but never made its way to the field. It came with 2.5 boxes of ammo and 1.5 boxes of empty brass so I have a good idea how many times it has been shot. The original owner said he had it out to the range several times which I believe given its extremely clean but non-mint aesthetic condition. The bore is perfect, the action is smooth and tight.

It doesn't have any optics or even a sling. Should be as interesting process finally getting her ready for the field.

Thanks for all the inputs.

H&Hhunter
November 18, 2012, 09:47 AM
Kynoch,

Interesting choice. Good luck with that, and let us know how it turns out.

wildchild2010
November 23, 2012, 06:26 PM
Great choice, I have a 460 WM, It just HAMMERS the wild game dead.

Jaxondog
November 23, 2012, 06:38 PM
Good luck with that choice and let us know how the hunt turn's out. Good luck and stay safe.

The Big Game Hunter
November 27, 2012, 03:15 AM
Buy a Ruger M77 in 9.3x62. Using the right bullets, you can take everything up to and including dangerous game without carrying a monster that will beat the snot out of you every time you shoot it. It is a very accurate gun and you won't develop a flinch from shooting it. Those things combined will make it much more likely that you will put the bullets where you need to when you shoot at an animal. The 9.3x62 has plenty of power and penetration to take down even the biggest animals. Also, it will work very well against almost any animal you will encounter hunting in the US, so you should get a great deal of use out of it. This is in contrast to buying and using it on one hunt in Africa like you probably would with a .458 or a .460.

H&Hhunter
November 27, 2012, 12:42 PM
The 9.3x62 has plenty of power and penetration to take down even the biggest animals.

Of course with the understanding that the 9.3 is NOT legal for DG in all countries while the .375H&H is.

gunner69
November 28, 2012, 12:20 AM
Last time I looked the 9.3x62 was specifically EXCLUDED from the list of calibers NOT allowed in Africa for Big Game. I know it's "Old and Slow" but that doesn't keep it from killin' to the max without all the recoil. :neener:

The Big Game Hunter
November 28, 2012, 03:41 AM
Both H&Hhunter and gunner69 are correct. Some countries require a .375 caliber minimum to hunt dangerous game. The 9.3x62mm is actually .366 caliber and would not meet that requirement. However, other countries, Zimbabwe to name one, make an exception for the 9.3mm. Others do not have a minimum caliber requirement at all. Wherever you end up hunting, check the regulations to see what caliber you need to hunt dangerous game. Even if it is not allowed for dangerous game, the 9.3x62mm is outstanding on African plains game and will work great for virtually all North American game.

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