What did you learn about handguns from IDPA or other competitions?

From time to time I see people who take part in these types of competitions saying that they are a great place to test equipment and techniques and that by doing so you can learn what does and does not work.

So briefly, what did you learn? What works for you? What doesn’t work? What mistakes would you avoid if you could do it all over?

I’m asking from the viewpoint of competition as it relates to carry, though I realize that sometimes these viewpoints can be at odds with each other.

Oh, wow. Great question!

In no particular order:
1) I learned that some handguns can be shot by some people simply faster and smoother than other handguns, given equal practice. There really are designs that are objectively BETTER than others. (At least for an individual shooter.)

2) All the cool gear in the world, and the neatest, prettiest, most venerable, gun ever made, doesn't make a bit of difference to the timer. The timer doesn't lie. What works, works. Nothing else matters.

3) Laser sights don't have a place in my arsenal. (Except for certain training tasks.)

4) Hits count. Fast hits count more. Slow hits might not count at all. Carry whatever you can shoot most accurately -- FASTEST. 9mm vs. .45 doesn't matter. If you shoot 9mm faster accurately, carry the 9!

5) Carry what you compete with. BUG gun matches, where everyone tries desperately and laughably to shoot their little "daily carry" guns, are not FUNNY. They are SCARY. Or they should be, anyway.

6) Mags and gun need to be in the same place, held securely, in the right orientation, every single time. You might need them NOW.

7) Your worst day at the match -- take that miserable performance and make all your hits about three times worse. That's about what you can expect of yourself if forced to draw in the face of a violent attack.

8) You need to be practicing with a light. You need to practice in very low light WITHOUT a light. You need to learn to use a light correctly, so you're not just a bullet magnet.

9) Buy good gear. You don't have to break the bank. The name doesn't matter, but if your gear sucks, it will let you down at the worst time in the worst way.

10) There is no excuse for an unreliable gun. Ever. Don't bring it to the match, don't stake your life on it. Get it fixed. Run the snot out of it in competition until you KNOW it works every time.

10a) Know every single way your gun could fail, and exactly what to do when it does. Practice these things until you cannot fail to clear a malfunction without even having to think about it. In competition, the clock doesn't stop running. Sometimes there might be even more important things on the line.

I shoot in steel matches and action pistol. I'd say the main thing I've learned are that (at least for me) the ergonomics of the gun play a huge role. I need to shoot something that I can operate under pressure. Let me explain...

I've tried my revolver, my 1911, and my Sig P226 in separate matches. I have thousands of rounds through each one during practice. I can consistently hit most anything from 6 feet up to 25 yards with any of those pistols.

But there are some issues. My revolver is reliable, but has a low capacity. My 1911 is accurate, but also has a relatively low capacity, and it costs me more to reload. My P226 is completely reliable, but it just doesn't work for me under pressure. I can hit anything with it when I can take my time, in spite of the heavy first trigger pull. But when I'm under pressure to shoot quickly, especially at moving targets, the first round is wasted unless the target is close.

I've been shooting M&P's for a little while now and recently switched over to an M&P9 for my competition gun. It just works for me. The combination of grip, high axis, and light trigger were perfect. I could go back to the 1911 and practice magazine changes to get my times shorter. Or I could practice mastering the 10lb Sig trigger on the first shot. OR... I can just go with my M&P9 that has worked perfectly from the beginning.

I would not view a pistol match as a place to find out how well my gun works though. It is definitely a place to find out where your weaknesses are as a shooter. I wouldn't take a gun out there to test its functioning in a match.

Test function in your gun before you ever take it to a match. I took my M&P out and put almost 1000 rounds through it before I shot it in a match. I shot it up close, far away from targets, from the ground, from behind barricades, fast, slow, with different bullet weights, and different powder charges.

My match performance and knowledge of how to run my gun is always changing though. I think I have found the right tool in the M&P9 but there is always room for development. And my choice of gun isn't necessarily the best for the next person.

My experience in IDPA mirrors Sam's quite a bit. These stand out in my mind, also in no particular order:

1. Just because a gun feels like it is pointing correctly on a static range, doesn't mean it will point the same way when rapidly drawn from a holster.

2. Clip on magazine carriers are as securely attached to your belt as you'd like to think. It can be a pain to thread your carriers on a belt, but at least they don't come out as you draw the magazine.

3. Being able to perform a technique smoothly a few times in practice, doesn't mean you can do it on demand. More practice.

4. Knowing how to clear a stoppage isn't enough. Recognising the signs that a stoppage has occurred and reacting immediately is the key

5. Some guns really do fail more than other guns when used quickly in less than ideal conditions...and there is a whole culture of denial around some guns

6. A revolver can be reloaded as quickly as a magazine fed pistol and it can be shot as quickly and as accurately by regular people.
6a. There really is a right and wrong way magazines should be oriented in the carriers
6b. Most folks don't understand how to correctly perform a magazine change

7. Fast hits really are more important than tight groups, but without enough accuracy, all you're doing is making noise

8. You really can learn to see your sights faster

1. guns that "never had a jam in 1000s of rounds" shot from a bench will almost always malfunction in a match or class.
2. holsters are really friggin important
3. people go buzzer dumb
4. no plan ever survived 1st contact with the enemy. almost everybody thinks they're going to run a stage one way then does something completely different
5. (this doesn't apply to IDPA because IDPA is lame) watch 50 people shoot a USPSA stage and you will see 50 different ways to solve a problem, some a lot better than others. odds are good you will say "oh, why didn't I think of doing it that way??" (and shoot it better next time)
6. you will eventually find a combination of gun, gun care, ammo, equipment and techniques that rarely malfunctions.
7. most people can't move and shoot at the same time. i don't mean they are lousy shots. i mean they try but their brain shuts off their feet and they stop to take shots even when the stage rules require shooting while moving.*
8. you learn where to put tape on your hands to prevent blisters from shooting and worse, from reloading mags
9. you learn which sights work faster for you in various conditions
10. you learn how annoying it is to manipulate a firearm while carrying a dummy or barrel or something
11. you learn how much easier it is to miss when carrying or dragging some weight that's pulling your torso off the preferred stance


* i secretly suspect this is a result of people's brains conditioning. I wonder if it would be different outside of the range. e.g. "I am at a range. I am supposed to be shooting. oh, and i need to remember to move too. [fail]" versus "holy crap! i need to run away! oh, and maybe i should pull this trigger while i'm at it"

7. most people can't move and shoot at the same time. i don't mean they are lousy shots. i mean they try but their brain shuts off their feet and they stop to take shots even when the stage rules require shooting while moving.*
* i secretly suspect this is a result of people's brains conditioning. I wonder if it would be different outside of the range. e.g. "I am at a range. I am supposed to be shooting. oh, and i need to remember to move too. [fail]" versus "holy crap! i need to run away! oh, and maybe i should pull this trigger while i'm at it"
You might be right.

I think I've learned 5 or 6 different ways to shoot on the move. The first was the funniest "Shoot between steps"...much like shooting between breaths (maybe rifles, but not for handguns)...and the hardest (but likely most realistic) has been "Shoot at the pace you can see the sights, just keep moving your feet"

Part of it is that most folks walk forward by falling and catching themselves by moving a leg forward...there is a psychological/emotional desire to prioritize catching yourself over sighting and shooting. The funny thing is that most folks walk backwards completely differently...it is actually more martially sound...and so shoot better moving backwards than forwards

1) I learned that some handguns can be shot by some people simply faster and smoother than other handguns, given equal practice. There really are designs that are objectively BETTER than others. (At least for an individual shooter.)

Any observations about what types of designs generally seem to work better? I’m not looking for specific models (unless you want to name names), just features that seem to work.


1. Just because a gun feels like it is pointing correctly on a static range, doesn't mean it will point the same way when rapidly drawn from a holster.

So if I’m in a gun store, and rapidly drawing and shooting it is not an option, is there any way to tell if it will point correctly?

6a. There really is a right and wrong way magazines should be oriented in the carriers

Do tell. I’m guessing top down, ammo pointed forward so that as you bring your hand up it rotates the magazine naturally for insertion.


2. holsters are really friggin important

Do you have a favorite style?

milt sparks summer special II

(and depending on the type of match, i also have a race holster and several flavors of kydex holsters that i fight with more than i use)


edit: i should add that holsters are not one-size fits all. if your love handles move laterally for a while past your belt, you may find the holster above uncomfortable. what works for me may or may not work for you. point of this thread, i think, is what YOU will learn.

Sam, 9mm and Taliv covered a lot but I'd like to add my 2 cents.

1. Be safe, then work on accuracy, then speed. Doing a lot of wrong things very fast isn't the way to go.

2. Guns jam and sometimes when you use them hard, parts break.

3. A tap/rack/bang drill isn't the same as a jam under duress.

4. When an auto jams tap/rack/bang usually works. When a revolver jams you better have a second gun.

4a. Speedloaders put bullets on the ground faster than in the gun. Practice your moves carefully, and use quality speedloaders.

5. Long guns are superior to handguns in most situations. Run an IDPA course with a handgun, then a rifle or shotgun and you'll see what I mean.

6. Theres a lot of standing around waiting to shoot, take the time to be social, have a good time. Being relaxed usually helps you shoot better.

point of this thread, i think, is what YOU will learn.

Sure, I get that. I’m not looking for an equipment list. More like what to expect or try to learn in advance, what ideas, features or techniques seem to work well generally speaking and what seems like a good idea in theory but is awful in actual use.

Why waste time and money trying to figure it all out for myself when many of you have moved past the obvious mistakes?

One thing you learn in competition is that there are certain guns that are more relaible than others. There is a reason most IDPA competitors shoot either Glock or M&P. They are easy to shoot and they just plain run. You can easily put 1000 rounds through either without cleaning and they will just keep shooting. You can't say that about a lot of guns. This is one of the reasons they are popular with law enforcement agencies. They hold up to abuse and neglect and still function.

The biggest thimg about technique you learn is that most gun owners have no clue how to actually handle their weapon and shoot quickly. Under any type of stress they revert back to point shooting. At more than a few yards few people can do this well. At the first sign of trouble with their gun they are lost about what to do. Competition teaches you to react to the situation as it happens instead of stopping to think about it.

Why waste time and money trying to figure it all out for myself when many of you have moved past the obvious mistakes?

Answer: a great number variables The shooter, the gun, the venue, to name just three with many variables within each---especially the shooter. How many habits do you need to "break" before you can start to progress? Abilities/debilities--often tied somewhat tied to age. Gun preferences, class you prefer to shoot in, etc. etc etc........

A good recommendation often offered here and everywhere else, is to take what you've got and go shoot a match.
Great revelations will happen. Don't go thinking speed and competition. Go thinking safety and to learn/gain information. Go to meet the other shooters. They are good people who will help. Other shooters will offer advice for "YOU" considering YOUR ability and equipment.

Other than safety, "mistakes" aren't BAD. Repeating mistakes is BAD.:D

So if I’m in a gun store, and rapidly drawing and shooting it is not an option, is there any way to tell if it will point correctly?
The optimal route is to learn to shoot before buying your first gun...I have done this for several clients. It also gives you an idea of what you are most comfortable with before committing to a trigger style.

I've found that most folks do not naturally grip a pistol correctly...it is a bit counter-intuitive...they over grip and want to use their thumbs. Many folks will choose guns that have overly full grips, because they like the way it fill their hands.

Or you can just do what the rest of us have done and just keep buying guns until you get one that shoot like an extension of your will. I've competed with all the actions (DA/SA, DAO, SAO), strikers and hammers, steel, alloy and polymer...looking for my Excaliber.

It was just a few days ago that I stumbled across what seems to be causing my alignment errors coming out of the holster...which I can fix with a Dremel or a different holster...and how to address an issue I'm having in consistent alignment for more difficult shots...which I'm addressing with Sugru

Do tell. I’m guessing top down, ammo pointed forward so that as you bring your hand up it rotates the magazine naturally for insertion.
Yes, bullets down and pointing forward. It is very common to see folks wearing the bullet pointing to the rear and also to see them grabbing the magazine without the index finger along the front...the finger tip should ideally touch the nose of the first round

The holster that works best for you will be dependent on your body shape, where your waist crosses your body, your upper arm, and collar bone, length and where you choose to where your holster

1) I learned that some handguns can be shot by some people simply faster and smoother than other handguns, given equal practice. There really are designs that are objectively BETTER than others. (At least for an individual shooter.)
Any observations about what types of designs generally seem to work better? I’m not looking for specific models (unless you want to name names), just features that seem to work.

From my observations of shooting competition with duty style or "service style" pistols, it appears to me that the state of design is trending toward polymer-framed, striker fired autos without external safety devices. For all the love of old steel and wood (or even aluminum and plastic!) and external hammers, and even the venerable 1911, the Glocks and such guns are really doing "combat" or "practical" shooting better/faster/easier for most shooters than other more classic designs.

My eyes were pretty much fully opened to this when I watched Dave Olhasso win the CDP division (that's custom 1911s!) at the 2008 IDPA Nationals -- using a stock-ish $500 plastic .45ACP S&W M&P, downloaded to play with all those custom 1911s.

I've tried many different kinds of guns in competition. I regularly compete with 1911s, revolvers, xDM, CZ, ... but the fastest time I've ever shot the IDPA Classifier in, was one afternoon when I borrowed a bone stock S&W M&P from a friend.

6a. There really is a right and wrong way magazines should be oriented in the carriers
Do tell. I’m guessing top down, ammo pointed forward so that as you bring your hand up it rotates the magazine naturally for insertion.You got it!

2. holsters are really friggin important
Do you have a favorite style? Anything OWB strong-side is good, as long as it is rigid, fits the gun WELL, and doesn't have a thumb-break. Kydex straight-drop holsters are fastest.

5. Long guns are superior to handguns in most situations. Run an IDPA course with a handgun, then a rifle or shotgun and you'll see what I mean.


AHhhhh, this is one I have to disagree with, as I've been playing with this idea all year (and debating it with JShirley a bit, too).

I cannot TOUCH my pistol scores with a carbine. There is, I believe, some distance out (Maybe it's 15 yds. Maybe 20?) where the inherant stability of a carbine and the accuracy that gives will start to overtake the speed of presentation, target/sight aquisition, speed of transitions, speed of shot-recovery and so forth that a handgun gives.

At 30+ yards, no doubt at all!

Inside 15? No friggin' way! (But I shoot 100+ handgun rounds for every rifle round I fire in practice, so that says a lot.)

The biggest thimg about technique you learn is that most gun owners have no clue how to actually handle their weapon and shoot quickly. Under any type of stress they revert back to point shooting. At more than a few yards few people can do this well. At the first sign of trouble with their gun they are lost about what to do. Competition teaches you to react to the situation as it happens instead of stopping to think about it.


I'll add a bit to this, as it is very good.

There is basic familiarity with weapons: Many shooters have this. How does it work? How do I align the sights? How do I unload it?

Then there is marksmanship skill: How do I present the gun, control the trigger, follow-through well, and get accuracy? A few shooters have these skills, though that number is distressingly low.

Then there is range competency: How does one move on a dynamic range, stay safe, work with a holster and reloads? Can I actually accomplish a given task with a weapon efficiently and without endangering anyone? Most shooters who've done some training classes and/or IDPA/USPSA type matches get this pretty well, but it is really amazing what a big step this is for a new shooter -- even one who's spent a lifetime shooting on a "square range" or just plinking. It's a whole new world.

Then there is unconscious competence: This is where you really START to excel. When you are able to see an array of targets (or threats, or bad guys, or whatever) and can spend your conscious mental powers on figuring out maneuver, order, stage directions, and a strategy -- confident that drawing, presenting the gun, stance, balance, sights, trigger control, putting the right number of rounds on target, reloads, malfunction clearing, and all the technical aspects of "running" the gun are going to happen without conscious input.

Once you've gotten all that mechanical stuff beaten into your brain and "muscle memory", you free up your thinking power for actually solving the problem given.

When you've got that down, that's when you'll start moving up in the classifications.

In a word, everything.

The amount of knowledge and skill improvement you can gain going from average gun owner/square range shooter to pushing yourself to be the best you can be in IDPA or other action competition can hardly be summed up in a forum posting...

In answer to the original question of "What did you learn about handguns from IDPA or other competitions?," I can only say I am well-pleased that I was born after the year 1911.

STI and SVI pistols are the best design for the games except for a few divisions. Glocks rule divisions that SV's and STI's don't.

#1 thing you must have is a gun that runs. If your gun, mag, ammo combination malfunctions you'll lose every match.

...the finger tip should ideally touch the nose of the first round

That, I didn’t know.

So briefly, what did you learn?

Something else I'll share which I think takes this in a slightly different direction:

You CAN shoot in snow. You CAN shoot in blistering heat. You CAN shoot in a torrential downpour (for days at a time). You CAN shoot sick, tired, worn out, and even HURT. You CAN shoot in the dark. You will learn a whole lot more about yourself and your equipment and your own strengths if you do not accept excuses about why you don't feel like going to the match today.

When you've put $80+ into match fees, you just GO. When you've signed up to work as an SO at a 3-day event and a hurricane is marching up the coast, you just GO. You prepare as best as you can, you bring extra socks. Maybe pick up some hand warmers or some extra towels, a Gore-Tex jacket, or whatever you think might help, but then you just march out into it and go to work.

I've shot matches during which 8" of snow fell, and I'd had the flu all week, and the first solid food I'd kept down for days was a piece of muffin I bought on the way to the range. But when the guy in the kilt next to me didn't quit, I didn't either. (Though the supine-prone start stage did prove that he'd donned woolen boxers for the day! :o)

I've shot matches where folks were suffering from heat stress and the Staff was bringing water by the case.

I've shot a match one cold, overcast, drenching day where the first stage I faced was a prone stage and at the buzzer I dove onto a piece of carpet that had been collecting rain for hours, and I skinned both forearms and dripped bloody rainwater all over everything for the next few stages. But at least I was numb. :rolleyes:

I've shot matches where the temps were in the teens and it blew 20-30mph all day (for two days) and it was hard to feel my hands. Good to know I can make the gun work anyway if I have to.

I've shot matches where the entire range -- every bay -- was awash in mud and where shooters were fishing in 12" soup to locate dropped magazines, then swishing them out "clean" in mud puddles before the next stage. Good to know the gun will still work even drenched and muddy.

I've shot one match after I'd dropped a large firewood log on a finger the day before and the pinky of my strong hand was swollen, purple, and wouldn't bend. Why? Well, how much do I know about my shooting, if I don't know how I'll shoot when something HURTS?

And it's not just me, either! I shoot with guys who've shown up on crutches, or with canes. Guys coming off knee surgery. Guys who puked after nearly every stage. Guys and ladies who grin and shiver and sweat and wring themselves out and just push on. It's inspiring.

Shooting matches just gets you out there facing conditions you would NEVER choose to, on days when there is no question in your mind that, left to your own devices, you'd be at home on the couch or still in bed. It leads you to a level of confidence that, "I can handle this. It's no big deal. I've been here before. Front sight -- press!"

I forgot about revolvers. You can't say your a competitive revolver shooter if you don't own at least one 625 and a pair of Colts for SASS can cost as much as an SVI open pistol, or more.

which I think takes this in a slightly different direction:

(Though the supine-prone start stage did prove that he'd donned woolen boxers for the day! )

that's about enough of that direction!


seriously though, that's a good point. while it's not particularly pertinent to pistols, i have learned a lot shooting rifles in different areas of the country, and been surprised how different it is. I also take any chance I get to shoot in unusual weather conditions (snow, fog, hurricanes).

For example, you learn things like when shooting in the mud, if you have to get down and crawl or shoot from a low port in a barricade, use your forearms instead of your hands, because the mud (esp sticky clay in AL/GA or 'gumbo' in TX) will transfer from your hands to your magazines to your action and gum everything up.

and when there are puddles of water on the ground, brakes will throw water everywhere, but most of it will land on your eye pro

You CAN shoot in snow. You CAN shoot in blistering heat. You CAN shoot in a torrential downpour (for days at a time). You CAN shoot sick, tired, worn out, and even HURT.

Snow and wind and bitter cold I’ve done while hunting. It’s harder and my shooting suffers but I’ve done it.

I shot in a trap league all spring and summer. Probably a third of the days it was windy and/or rainy for part of the evening. I can say that wind didn’t bother me that much. I missed when the target moved suddenly and erratically but mentally it didn’t affect me. Rain though – that’s another story. My scores plummeted in the rain.

My scores plummeted in the rain. He who's scores plummet LEAST, wins! :)

I shot smallbore out at Camp Perry in '94. The storms that swept the line soaked everything. It was pretty funny/shocking to see guys tipping forward to let the rainwater pour out of the full-float channels of the stocks of their $3,000 Anschutz rifles.

On one stage we shot in the blowing rain until a gust took out 75% of the saturated targets on the line.

Whoever can keep focus and shut out all that extraneous fluff (like discomfort, cold, smudged eye pro., etc. will prevail against those who cannot!

I've shot a match where it was sleeting MUD. (sleet + duststorm) That was a fun day of people drawing from concealment by opeing up a coat to start. Nobody wanted to unbutton a jacket until they absolutely had to that day.

I learned to bring a spare gun during a tough qualifier. Not everyone has this luxury, but I was glad I did!

Sam the first time I did a pistol course with a shotgun I came in 2nd. I suspect that was more about 'knowing how to run a shotgun' faster than a pistol at the time.

I suspect right now I'd be a lot faster with a carbine than a handgun and I haven't shot IDPA in a while.

I went through several holsters before I got one I really liked.

Yeah, that's why I always put my caveat in these discussions about how very skewed my practice regimen is toward handguns.

I've certainly known a lot of good shooters who's skills with a rifle are better than their handgunning skills, and for them the speed/accuracy break-over point might be quite different.

I'm also aware that relatively unskilled persons (the proverbial "my wife" who always shows up in our "what gun for home-defense" threads) may indeed find a long-gun easier to shoot with some basic level of effectiveness than they would a handgun. I tend not to proffer this idea in those threads, as the true neophyte seems to have a nearly unbounded ability to hit nothing at all when picking up a handgun for the first time.

Good stuff.

Let me take another tact. What’s the thing you most struggled with early on? It might be something you executed poorly or something you just plain didn’t understand how to do or maybe even something you didn't even know existed.

What’s the thing you most struggled with early on? It might be something you executed poorly or something you just plain didn’t understand how to do or maybe even something you didn't even know existed

First was the patience to shoot within my limit. After that was the faith that if I shoot my best match, my place on the final tally will take care of itself (i.e., focusing on the process, not the goal). Chasing Joe Hotshot is a bad & frustrating strategy because we'll inevitably go beyond our ability, and/or let someone or something distract us from the process of shooting our best. Joe Hotshot isn't in your sphere of control, but your performance is.

More concretely, getting your hits (even if it means slowing down), and efficient movement are the lowest hanging fruits, IMO.

A few things come to mind there:

1) The draw. I've seen old videos of me and it's embarrassing. Tons of wasted motion. Up with the gun, then down low, swooping back up toward the target, arms going all over the place. We dubbed it the "potato-digger draw." Learn the 4-count draw stroke and practice it until it's all you know.

2) Reloads and other manipulations. Watch some good ones. Practice these minimal-motion steps, slowly at first, until you don't waste time fumbling around. And for heaven's sake, learn to work up in front of you. In your "workspace." Don't try to reload and/or clear jams down at waist height, bent over like you're trying to see your shoes. Do this so you can work quickly, keep your balance, keep your eyes on the threats/targets, and push straight back out when you're done.

3) Use of cover. IDPA has rules for using cover. They do NOT require you to hug walls, tiptoe up to edges, or bob back and forth between shots or to reload. (Check out our "Don't Crowd Cover" thread for more info.) This is a huge time waster for new shooters. They move like kindergarteners playing hide-and-seek.

4) To that same end, once you are able to run the gun without conscious thought, start to pay attention to the choreography of what you're trying to do. Many shooters waste a lot of steps, and a lot of time, taking lines that are unnecessarily tight or going places in the stage they don't need to go. What is the actual shortest distance between where you intend to shoot? Where do your feet need to be to keep you in cover? Can you keep in mind where a target was beyond a barricade so that your gun is already presented and trigger staged as you come around the shadow of cover? If you don't have to go hunting for the targets, you'll shoot a lot faster.

4a) Shoot as slowly as you have to to get hits, but when you're not shooting, HUSTLE! None of the fast shooters I've shot with trot or amble between firing points. They're at a sprint if the gun isn't firing. All that time in movement? Yeah, the timer's counting that, too, and on some stages you could lose as much time there as in your points down!

5) Lead with your eyes. Get your eyes and head moving ahead of the gun so you're already "on target" mentally as the gun catches up. This is more advanced, but your transitions will benefit greatly.

6) Forget the double-tap. Every shot is one shot. You're just shooting them as fast as you can see the sights. And as 9mmepiphany can tell you, you can see those sights MIGHTY fast! Combine this with number 5, and you'll be amazed at what you can do. Eventually you'll run an "El Prez" drill that sounds not like "bu-bang...bu-bang...bu-bang" but as an even string of shots "bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang" in cadence, and they'll be Down-0, too! :)

I haven't gone to my first IDPA match yet, planning on it this month (22nd), but I have watched some videos and done some practice with airsoft, as well as some other drills my handgun. Note to self - if you have a solid 3-finger grip with the magazine inserted, use a two-finger grip while reloading, or you'll pinch your pinky.

One thing I realized I was doing with my cheapo setup (airsoft pistol, moving around in my condo, aiming at the same target) is that while I am great about keeping my finger off the trigger prior to shooting, I am terrible at removing my finger from the trigger after firing a few shots and pausing my shooting temporarily. That's something I made a conscious effort to work on.

Sam, it's interesting how many of those lessons in your last post I've learned similar versions of via playing video games. Ironically I'm not talking about first person shooters. I do want to say that I'm reading this thread like a hawk, though.

After reading through this thread, I've learned that competitive tournament paintball (which I've done a lot of) and competitive shootings (which I've never done) seem to have an absurd amount in common. Significantly more in common than is different, at least.

I'm wondering if any of the more experienced members who have commented in this thread have spent much time in tournament paintball; and if so, whether they will agree or disagree with my conclusion.

What’s the thing you most struggled with early on?
1. Procedurals - I tried doing things I'd learned in police work that were against the rules (that is what makes it a game)...surprisingly these same things are within the rules of USPSA

2. Trying to shoot faster than I could get good hits...trying to keep up with the hotshots

3. Discerning how fine a sight picture was needed as the distance to the targets varied.

4. Timing my shots with my steps when shooting on the move...they are two independent actions which shouldn't affect each other

5. Waiting for the Start signal to end before drawing...I only recently learned to not do this

6. Waiting for a steel target to fall before moving to the next target...it is faster to come back for a missed target

bobson, i played paintball competitively in MSPA from ~1990-1995 and up in PA / OH from 1995-2000 or so. paintball requires much less discipline as far as technique goes, and is almost always a team sport. the team tactics usually determine the winner much more than a person's split times or accuracy. however, sure there is some overlap

focusing on the process, not the goal
...something distract us from the process of shooting our best.
This is so important that it bears repeating.

I've been known to mutter this to myself before a stage to remind myself of what I need to do. Shooting well, accurately and quickly, has nothing to do with hitting the target and everything to do with staying in the process

More concretely, getting your hits (even if it means slowing down), and efficient movement are the lowest hanging fruits, IMO.
This is the key to doing well. How you move and where you move to that minimizes wasted motion before you can start shooting again makes a huge difference. The time between targets isn't the time to relax between shots, it is the time to really push yourself to save time...because it is much less precise that pressing the trigger.

In a recent engagement of man vs. man shooting, the CoF was two plates, reload and a third plate. With my slow reactions, there were times the other guy would get off the first shot while I was still drawing...but I'd catch up because of my smoother mag changes and faster shot on the following push out

I'm still playing with which is faster when starting with your back to the targets...turning toward or away from your gun side.

After reading through this thread, I've learned that competitive tournament paintball (which I've done a lot of) and competitive shootings (which I've never done) seem to have an absurd amount in common. Significantly more in common than is different, at least.

I'm wondering if any of the more experienced members who have commented in this thread have spent much time in tournament paintball; and if so, whether they will agree or disagree with my conclusion.

I have played a lot of tournament paintball in the past, from 92 - 96 or 7, then again from 2005-2009. I actually took up IDPA (and USPSA) after I stopped playing ball the last time.

There are some similarities and some major differences. The older mechanical paintball guns helped with trigger control and learning to shoot strong hand and weak hand. The new electronic markers changed the whole feel with the double finger triggers. Both versions teach you to practice the reload, using cover, economy of movement, and fixing problems under duress. The biggest difference is that paintball guns are not really designed to be aimed the same as a handgun. With paintball, it's more point shooting (most markers don't have sights) and then walking the stream of paintballs into the target. The sheer volume of shots would boggle the minds of most IDPA shooters. Even in the single trigger, mechanical days, we shot a case (2500 rounds) for practice. Tournaments games consumed anywhere from 100-1000 rounds per person per game. Our old team motto was "Accuracy by volume; one case, one kill". When I got back into it using the electronic markers at 15+ balls per second, the volume went up a bit. The biggest similarity is the opportunity to meet good people. The friends I started shooting IDPA with are all former team mates who have now been friends for 20 years. We have all found the shooting community to be similar, with people always willing to help and encourage each other.

Good points, Tarakian. I think some of the biggest similarities I had in mind are learning to use cover effectively, solving problems under stress, and learning to evaluate a course and the best ways to maneuver it.

For me, those were the three things I placed the most emphasis on forcing myself to learn like the back of my hand - and they always paid off enormously and were very clear in my game when handled well. They're also the three challenges I miss the most.

Can't wait to get involved in USPSA or IDPA. If I didn't work swing shift with Mondays and Tuesdays off, I'd already have gotten out and shot a few matches. Problem is, I haven't found a single IDPA or USPSA club that has matches on my days off, or in the mornings before I go to work.

6. Waiting for a steel target to fall before moving to the next target...it is faster to come back for a missed target

During the marksman training in the video game Americas Army, I learned it was better on a miss to just wait for the next target, instead of wasting several shots on one that I missed.

During the marksman training in the video game Americas Army, I learned it was better on a miss to just wait for the next target, instead of wasting several shots on one that I missed.
I would think that would depend on the situation, no? If you need to run to the next target before engaging it, wouldn't it be better to engage the same target before moving on? Otherwise you'd have to spend the extra time returning to the target you missed...

I've been known to mutter this to myself before a stage to remind myself of what I need to do.

The only shooting competition I’ve ever done was a trap league this year. It’s what convinced me that I really need to start shooting IDPA.

Anyway, I started out struggling. My scores dropped 20%. So I started talking to myself before my turn. “Relax – Focus” or some variation before every shot and after every miss. It seemed to help.

Relax is a good one, I began asking to go first on every stage as the cure. Nothing to worry about once it's done.

I would think that would depend on the situation, no? If you need to run to the next target before engaging it, wouldn't it be better to engage the same target before moving on? Otherwise you'd have to spend the extra time returning to the target you missed...

In the game I'm talking of, you were alloted 1 round per target, so every miss was a target missed. Like I said, not exactly IDPA, but I can understand the strategy 9mm stated in point #6 of his post.

I would think that would depend on the situation, no? If you need to run to the next target before engaging it, wouldn't it be better to engage the same target before moving on? Otherwise you'd have to spend the extra time returning to the target you missed...
Sorry if I wasn't very clear...I was pretty much just free flowing onto the screen about mistakes I'd made when first starting

What I meant was not to wait for a target to fall before transitioning to the next target...if there was another target available from that shooting point...and transitioning back to the steel before moving on to the next array.

If that steel target needed to fall to activate the appearance of another target, you really don't have a choice but to wait for it. Although I have seen a popper which activated a disappearing turner; however, the turner appeared so slowly that you could engage the next target in the sequence and come back to engage the turner before it disappeared

I'm still playing with which is faster when starting with your back to the targets...turning toward or away from your gun side.


Aaargh, that's one I can't run with the conventional wisdom. Everyone tells me to turn to the gun side. Turning to the support side always makes more sense to me as I'm putting my body between the "threats" and the gun, freeing up my strong hand/arm to draw and shielding (even masking) my drawstroke from anything that might foul me on the threat side.

Even with just barricades and static stuff behind me (uprange) I tend to get my elbow bumped or hung up if I turn to the gun side. When I turn "my way" I can throw out the support side elbow to give me a little clearance as I turn.

It doesn't seem slower. But the timer would tell.

If that steel target needed to fall to activate the appearance of another target, you really don't have a choice but to wait for it. Although I have seen a popper which activated a disappearing turner; however, the turner appeared so slowly that you could engage the next target in the sequence and come back to engage the turner before it disappeared I have done this many times. At natiolals a few years ago a fellow MA class shooter thought I was nuts when a shooting buddy and I were talking about engauging the steel activator, another two paper targets, then reload and hit the two dissapearing targets before they went behind the wall. Once I shot it, he could see the "free" time. The gamble is hitting your reload but when was the last time you missed one of thoes?

"Aaargh, that's one I can't run with the conventional wisdom. Everyone tells me to turn to the gun side. Turning to the support side always makes more sense to me as I'm putting my body between the "threats" and the gun, freeing up my strong hand/arm to draw and shielding (even masking) my drawstroke from anything that might foul me on the threat side."

That is one of those gunfighting tactic versus match technique things.
I find it faster to turn into the gun at a match, but a cop should turn the other way to mask his holster from the threat.

That is one of those gunfighting tactic versus match technique things.
I find it faster to turn into the gun at a match, but a cop should turn the other way to mask his holster from the threat.

I haven't shot competition yet, but I was thinking this when I read Sam's post.

1. You can't miss fast enough.
2. Even GLOCKs malfunction.
3. Video doesn't lie ... it shows the entire ugly truth. When you can stand to watch video of yourself in a match you're probably on the right track.

I've often wondered if the 180° rule helps or hinders in terms of a real world encounter. It sure is unnatural to "advance in reverse" with the muzzle pointing downrange.

thanks for this post:)

I'll be following this thread. Followed a buddy to an IDPA match 2 weeks ago, next time I'm going to sign up myself. I was somewhat intimidated at first, but I saw a wide range of skills out there so I shouldn't be too embarrassed my first few times.

next time I'm going to sign up myself. I was somewhat intimidated at first, but I saw a wide range of skills out there so I shouldn't be too embarrassed my first few times.

Greatest advice ever: Just do it! :) You can't practice enough to be "ready" and when you go jump into it you'll move much farther/faster than you ever could by yourself.

The only thing you need to worry about in your first match is SAFETY. Everything else will work itself out in time.

I played a little bit of competitive paintball many years ago. I would say there are zero similarities whatsoever with action pistol shooting. Same with video games. There is going to be practically no connection.

The mainstream sport most like action pistol shooting is golf. They are exact same game; different gear.

I've often wondered if the 180° rule helps or hinders in terms of a real world encounter. It sure is unnatural to "advance in reverse" with the muzzle pointing downrange.

Well, IDPA doesn't have a "180° rule." But most ranges do. I've asked that same question myself, but the way I answer it is this: We also have two shoot houses, one that allows about 270 degree target presentations, and one that gives full 360 deg. coverage. I've never seen anyone falter in those scenarios becasuse they were defaulting to an "advancing backward" habit.

When you're on the range you keep strict muzzle discipline because you simply MUST. Out in the real world, without the visual cues of berm, SO, spectators, muzzle-safe points, and all the targets facing the same way, I don't think this ever gets in the way.

Well, IDPA doesn't have a "180° rule."

I hadn't realized that. I'm involved in USPSA where there is a 180° rule and people get very upset if you break it. I haven't yet but I've seen some DQs for just that reason.

I was somewhat intimidated at first, but I saw a wide range of skills out there so I shouldn't be too embarrassed my first few times.

Every new shooter should be paired up with an experienced shooter. The experienced shooter should ensure two things. First, that the new shooter is being SAFE and second, that the new shooter is having fun. Any club that doesn't use this system is questionable and is probably run by a bunch of egotistical morons.

I hadn't realized that. I'm involved in USPSA where there is a 180° rule and people get very upset if you break it. I haven't yet but I've seen some DQs for just that reason.

IDPA acknoledges that there are possible safe stage designs (and range facilities) which could accomodate stages which are not limited to a 180 deg. safety line. However, IDPA does provide "muzzle-safe points" which are usually tall stakes with flagging and which show the shooter how far back s/he may point their weapon before they're creating a dangerous situation. In practice, except for shoot house scenarios as I mentioned, I've seen very few stages set up with targets arranged in such a way that shooters would be tempted to point uprange, even a few degrees.

I've seen very few stages set up with targets arranged in such a way that shooters would be tempted to point uprange, even a few degrees.

True, but remember that your muzzle during a reload can get you into trouble, too - even when the targets aren't problematic while actually shooting or moving.

Revolver shooters who employ a weak hand reload have to be particularly mindful here. Though I normally use a weak hand reload with speedloaders, I used a strong hand reload a bunch of times at this year's Carolina Cup. Seems I had legit reason for concern - IIRC, 30+ people got DQd, mostly for muzzle violations, and some of these, during a reload. :eek:

Good point. I've been a few places which were crazy-tight about muzzles when reloading. Certainly something to keep in mind. I do a swap-hands reload myself, and tend to bring the barren pretty near vertical. I've watched some revolver guys come way past vertical so they're about looking down the barrel! But, of course, the cylinder is open with thier fingers through the frame window. Kind of hard to say it's unsafe, per se. But I still keep mine downrange.

But shooting down at the MD State match a few times -- and being told that a muzzle being raised above the top of the berm was reason to be sent home! -- was an eye-opener.

We had a girl on our squad get DQed on the very last reload of the entire match for a muzzle violation at Carolina Cup.

We had a girl on our squad get DQed on the very last reload of the entire match for a muzzle violation at Carolina Cup.
Holy cow. That sux. Care to elaborate? (Not saying you have to pass judgment on the call, just curious what happened.)

For those who were there, it was the "graveyard" stage, and there was a tight muzzle point for right handers. Muzzle safe point was probably around 45 degrees away from "downrange". I was not looking when they made the call, but the fact it was a tight muzzle spot was harped on significantly in the walkthrough. I don't think she was the only one who bought it at this spot.

Aaargh, that's one I can't run with the conventional wisdom. Everyone tells me to turn to the gun side. Turning to the support side always makes more sense to me as I'm putting my body between the "threats" and the gun, freeing up my strong hand/arm to draw and shielding (even masking) my drawstroke from anything that might foul me on the threat side.

It doesn't seem slower. But the timer would tell.
The turn isn't slower, it is the shot...because, so I've been told, when you turn toward the gun, you can start the draw sooner without pointing the muzzle up range. Plus there is the issue of when it breaks the 180 (local range) rule...when it clears the holster or when the muzzle starts to rotate (muzzle down should be safe)

Personally I think it is just a matter of them not being able, or being unwilling, to pay attention to when you clear the holster...the only place you can really see is from the wrong side.

Turning toward the gun requires more rotation and forward movement, turning away actually is a step backwards

True, but remember that your muzzle during a reload can get you into trouble, too - even when the targets aren't problematic while actually shooting or moving.
This is very common when ranges want to enforce a 180 degree vertical rule...pointing over the berm. When reloading, many folks point their muzzle up when inserting a magazine...but this is really more a IPSC issue than a USPSA or IDPA issue

I've often wondered if the 180° rule helps or hinders in terms of a real world encounter. It sure is unnatural to "advance in reverse" with the muzzle pointing downrange.
It depends on if you are still shooting or running.

If just running to another position, I've found it pretty natural to just drop my support hand, leave the strong hand extended toward the target, turn my torso and move laterally or towards the rear. In house clearing, I do maintain both hands on the gun and move with my shoulders squared

If you look at it critically, thinking in terms of movement, shooting while retreating...other than tripping on something on the ground, which can be addressed with proper foot movement (not placement) is easier than shooting while advancing. The weight shift and balance points provide a more stable platform

When reloading, many folks point their muzzle up when inserting a magazine...
I've always been taught to bring the pistol into my workspace, up at eye level. The magazine is released while the pistol is being "brought in," and ideally, I should be ready to insert the new magazine when the magwell is at my eye level. At that point, the muzzle of the gun is pointing upward at a 45 degree angle, and at or very close to 90 degrees on my left side (assuming "downrange" is 0 degrees).

Is this poor or improper technique?

That is the way I do it too...although I don't rotate to the side as much as 90 degrees, maybe 30 degrees off the target. Unless, I am reloading on the move (while behind cover)

There are some IPSC (the World Organization) that will call you on it in International Competition

I learned that if you want to improve, skip the IDPA matches and go shoot some USPSA.

Is there a big difference between what you learn in either one? Or is it kind of like the difference between 9mm and .45 ACP;)

It's two reasons. One is that the stages are longer, more complex and can have more difficult shots.
The other is that the shooters are better, so you have to speed up to keep up.

I still shoot both as much as I can, although IDPA is more of a winter sport for me since USPSA shooters are sissies and quit from November til March around here.

It's two reasons. One is that the stages are longer, more complex and can have more difficult shots.
The other is that the shooters are better, so you have to speed up to keep up.
There's a third, more universal reason: In USPSA/ISPC you are given a space to work in (the range) and an array of targets. You then figure out how to shoot them -- what order, what distance, what movement -- that you think will get you done fastest.

If that means you walk up nose-to-nose and shoot every target point blank, so be it. If you stand still in one place and snipe them, fine. If you shoot all the guys farthest away first and save the guy standing one yard away for last, hey -- that's great! You want to stand exposed and rooted to the spot in front of a field of 40 bad guys and pick them off one-by-one? That's ok. Whatever you want to do to fulfil the requirement to put the required bullets through the given targets -- it strips down the idea of a "gunfight" into a single-faceted exercise of putting bullets on targets.

IDPA is much more scripted and has a different focus. IDPA tries to keep the idea of serious, deadly "threats" in mind and requires that you use cover, take the threats in order of how close (or exposed) they are to you, and attemts to keep the stages based on the sorts of things that could possibly happen to someone who carries a gun for defensive purposes. You can't just wander around shooting targets in any order. You can't stand exposed to a whole array of targets, because in theory they'd be shooting back at YOU. You'll be told what the secario is and where you need to go, and those stage descriptions will dictate which targets you have to shoot, when.

When you get deeper into them, the sports are pretty different, though on the surface they may seem similar.

If that means you walk up nose-to-nose and shoot every target point blank, so be it. If you stand still in one place and snipe them, fine. If you shoot all the guys farthest away first and save the guy standing one yard away for last, hey -- that's great! You want to stand exposed and rooted to the spot in front of a field of 40 bad guys and pick them off one-by-one? That's ok. Whatever you want to do to fulfil the requirement to put the required bullets through the given targets -- it strips down the idea of a "gunfight" into a single-faceted exercise of putting bullets on targets.

This is why, when I initially looked at competition I was turned off. I felt the skills required for something such as USPSA was more competition skills and less applicable to self defense. It was the same reason why I don't own any target guns or .22s. Then I started looking at IDPA and I thought, "this stuff is actually designed to work with what I carry, so it actually makes sense." Now I'm interested.

That's not to say anything against USPSA as a sport, just not my cup of tea.

That will probably promt a handful of replies to the effect that IDPA doesn't do a stellar job of simulating a real gunfight, and makes requirements that aren't always realistic, and still encourages a lot of gaming behavior that is not condusive to optimal and lawful self-defense practices. And that's so.

But it tries, and gives you a setting where you CAN think and work toward better defensive tactics if that's your aim.

I didn't say it would be perfect, but it looked like it was designed for duty equipment rather than competition equipment.

Are IDPA and USPSA scored the same? Meaning the ultimate goal is to complete a course of fire faster than everyone else?

Are IDPA and USPSA scored the same? Meaning the ultimate goal is to complete a course of fire faster than everyone else?


Arrgh...one question with two answers. No, they aren't scored the same (USPSA uses a hit percentage to score everyone on a curve -- IDPA uses a somewhat simpler system of time + points down x 0.5), but the final result is pretty much the same. Quickest accurate shooter wins. (Or, most accurate quick shooter wins, depending on how you play! :))

The biggest thing I took away from my first IDPA event...a big slice of humble pie. I was pretty humble going in, so I was a little surprised at how much I realized.

Two things I will always need more of regardless of how much I have:
1. Training
2. Ammo

They are both scored on a combination of speed and accuracy. Relatively speaking, USPSA favors speed over accuracy compared to IDPA, but to win you have to be at or near the top of the pile in both stats, in either sport.

Also in USPSA it is not entirely accurate to say you can move and shoot from wherever you want. You can move and shoot from wherever you want within the designated shooting area. The designated area will almost always be designated in such a way to force difficult shots on movers or static targets at distances much further away than point blank. If anything, there are more distant shots required more regularly in USPSA than IDPA.

Certainly true.

The reason I choose a local IDPA club was less new equipment to start (I'm not even sure you would want to do USPSA with fewer than 6 mags on your belt) and fewer rounds shot during a match. Plus many of my clients wanted to go in that direction.

The most irritating things about IDPA are the restrictions of reloading (speed reload) whenever you wanted...you need to not leave ammo behind...and not reloading in the between cover. Running back to cover to reload or running forward with an empty gun just seems wrong

Yeah, that does seem like it would take some getting used to. This is interesting stuff for sure.

Buzzer dumb. Unfortunately I know what that means.

The most irritating things about IDPA are the restrictions of reloading (speed reload) whenever you wanted...you need to not leave ammo behind...and not reloading in the between cover.

What's the rationale behind these rules?

The first is that you not leave ammo/mags behind which you might need later. A good idea on it's face, but when I have a magazine malfunction, my first instinct is to drop it and reload with a fresh mag (my first IDPA Procedural)

The second is to prevent folks from standing in the open when reloading...actually it comes from wanting folks to stay behind cover when reloading. Another good idea, but if I'm moving between cover and shooting and run the gun dry...my first thought is to reload. If my reload is completed before I reach cover, I'm going to start shooting again.

To be completely fair, I understand they are in the process of addressing the second point in the rules

You should not have been penalized for dropping a partial magazine to clear a malfunction.
Not all SOs know the rules, unfortunately.
They should for what they get paid, don't you think?

In 2005 the reload under cover requirement was changed from reloads must be completed in cover to reloads must be conducted under cover. In the old days you could drop an empty in the open on the move towards cover as long as you seated the reload behind cover. Not now. Carry that empty gun to cover and do it all there.

To be completely fair, I understand they are in the process of addressing the second point in the rules

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I read somewhere (one of the websites with rules that people linked in another thread) that if the course specifies it, you can reload without cover.
And please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to know.

No, you may not write a CoF that directs the shooter to violate the rules, not and it be a real IDPA stage.

I saw it finessed last week when it was announced that "None of the objects you see on this range are cover, they are only obstacles to where you can move. Shoot and load where convenient." But that was a gimmick stage and should not be taken as normal.

Have you (Skribs) yet participated in a match? If not, or not many, stick to the rules and don't worry about the tricky stuff.

The bedroll lawyers who push such stuff on the internet are not very active on the shooting range.

There are stages where you will reload "in the open". They are typically "standards" stages that follow a bit different guidelines than a "scenario" stage. Don't worry about this for now; just do what they tell you to do at your first match and you should be be fine.

As mentioned earlier, you CAN drop the partial magazine from the gun onto the ground in the event you have a jam caused by the magazine or other issues. It is very clear in the rules that procedural should not be awarded for this and any SO that did so is in the wrong.

but when I have a magazine malfunction, my first instinct is to drop it and reload with a fresh mag (my first IDPA Procedural)

Woah! If you got a procedural for that, the SO didn't know what s/he was doing!

ANY malfunction clears you from having to retain that magazine. If the SO didn't catch what happened, explain it to them. You do not have to retain a mag (or ammo) if your gun choked.

(Ok...looks like that was covered a couple of times! ...I should read to the end of the thread before replying! :))

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I read somewhere (one of the websites with rules that people linked in another thread) that if the course specifies it, you can reload without cover.
And please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to know.

As Jim said, the MD isn't supposed to write stages with directions that tell you (or allow you) to disregard the rules.

However as ny32182 said, "Standards" stages (basically speed or skill drills, different from scenarios) may be set up a bit differently. The classic El Presidente or Langdon 9, for example.

As well, there are a few scenarios where no cover is provided. Those usually will be short "fast & dirty" hold-up/mugging type stages where you're reacting to a couple or three targets right in front of you with no cover and no time to find any. The rule book says you must use cover, if cover is provided.

OK..I should clarify a couple of points on my procedural

1. It was my first IDPA match. It wasn't until my 3rd that a actually challenged a SO's ruling...all the way to the MD: "Whoa", isn't a instruction, range command or warning; "Trigger Finger" is the correct warning.

2. The equipment malfunction was during a speed reload. I drew the mag from my belt and the kydex clip-on mag carrier came off the belt with it. I gave it a quick flick, and when it didn't dislodge the carrier, dropped it and drew a second mag from my belt. I made my shots and moved on.

The Procedural was for leaving ammo in the ground

1- No it isn't.

There is a score so therefore it’s a game thus regulated by rules. Learn the rules which one may abide by or ignore at their folly in regards to scoring. If the experience induces a stressful situation then you’ve made more of what it is which is a game. If you choose to call it training that’s your perception.

If you choose to call it training that’s your perceptionNobody calls IDPA "training." It may be good skills practice, though.

Just to add to that.

Unless you're shooting is being evaluated and corrections/evaluations are made/taught, it isn't training...it is, at best, practice

Heck. Its fun trigger time. No problems here.

Unless you're shooting is being evaluated and corrections/evaluations are made/taught, it isn't training...it is, at best, practice

I don't think it is practice unless it is repetitious, so you ingrain the technique being studied.

IDPA and USPSA emphasize novelty in their setups, each stage different.
I agree with the description of them as a test of your skills.

You are under at least some stress.
True, you aren't fighting for your life, and you are not after a high qualification to keep your job on an elite military or police force, but if you have a competitive bone in your body, you will have some adrenaline flowing.

Score is kept. Some people dismiss it by saying "if score is kept, it is just a game." But on paper targets, score is all there is. It shows your performance and progress. If you don't have a score whether in competition or training, it is easy to slide into "good enough" or "combat accurate" where mediocrity is excused.

Can we agree that it is practicing you current skills to see how they hold up under some stress?

I think there are different levels of practice that build on each other:
1. Dry Practice... to learn and ingrain movements/techniques...like drawing, mag changes, grip, alignment
2. Live Practice...confirming your Dry Practice of alignment and trigger press, as well as seeing the sights faster for followup shots (confirming subconscious programing)
3. Competition...To test if your other forms of practice will stand up under pressure/stress. It is also a way to see it a different technique you've been practicing holds up in unexpected (one's you didn't design) situations

No, you may not write a CoF that directs the shooter to violate the rules, not and it be a real IDPA stage. There are a lot of IDPA stages that the COF is stated as "contact distance" from cover (this is because there are no "foot fault lines", so they force you do do something that is not in the rule book.

Also, the "all reloads from cover" is from an MD's standpoint. Point in fact, is the shoot house at IDPA nationals (OK), once you shot all targets in the room you were then free to reload in the room you just cleared before you made it to the next one. Most will make you get to the next point of cover to start your reload (or RL before leaving), because they look at in the next room (from the position you just shot from to the next one) as "in the open".

Oh, if you are there for "training" 2nd place is the 1st dead guy.

There are a lot of IDPA stages that the COF is stated as "contact distance" from cover (this is because there are no "foot fault lines", so they force you do do something that is not in the rule book.

True, we do a lot of things that are "not in the rule book."
But if you are doing someting that contradicts the rule book, you are not shooting IDPA.
Of course the rule book is self contradictory on some items, but I won't get on that soapbox late at night.

Oh, if you are there for "training" 2nd place is the 1st dead guy.

Assuming a free-for-all, he would be the last dead guy. I'd assume the guy coming in last would fare least well in the same firefight.
Of course, this makes a lot of assumptions. I remember rounds in video games where I take down the top player in the server, but the bottom player in turn takes me out. Firefights aren't just about who is better on the trigger.

That said, I get the joke ;)

I agree with what Sam and many others posted on the first page.


I'll underscore the point that once you learn the gun handling skills to the point of unconscious competence, you free your mind up to deal with the actual problem in front of you.


Like I said, many of the points have already been well covered on page 1. But I'll add the things I've learned in competition can be summed up neatly in two different categories:


The things I've learned about myself;
And those things I've learned from others.


I can think of very few venues outside of competition that gives someone that kind of opportunity.

One time I was at the range trying to fire fast pairs and not doing so well. Someone a few lanes down somehow shot the rope off their target carrier and there was a cease fire while it was restrung. I had Brian Enos's book in my range bag, and so I read while I waited. Where I picked up, he was talking about pointing your thumbs hard at the target, and I realized that what I had been thinking of as "trying harder" was really just making a face while getting upset. I'm sorry if it sounds foolish, but it was huge for me- wanting harder for bad technique to work instead of changing it was something I had no idea I was doing.

There were a couple of other big ones in there, but the other takeaway I think is really valuable is that anything worth doing is worth doing badly at first.