Does Illinois Have SBR and certain machine guns now


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Trent
September 12, 2012, 02:25 PM
The guy I bought the DShK and ZB37 from today was telling me that Illinois just signed in to law an act legalizing SBR's!!!!!!!!

I don't know if this is true, haven't done my homework yet, but according to him anyone with a C&R license will be legally allowed to own SBR's that are "vintage military arms" (AR's, AK's, etc). Still have to comply with NFA, but ...


OH MY GOD IF IT IS TRUE I MIGHT JUST CRY!!!

(Because my C&R showed up yesterday in the mail!!!)

Someone pinch me, tell me I'm dreaming, or that this info is wrong.

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Trent
September 12, 2012, 03:00 PM
REMOVED - quoted old law text.

Trent
September 12, 2012, 03:42 PM
Sorry, the bill has been superceded as follows (takes effect Jan 1 2013)

This is the current language:

(7) A person possessing a rifle with a barrel or
barrels less than 16 inches in length if: (A) the person
has been issued a Curios and Relics license from the U.S.
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; or (B)
the person is an active member of a bona fide, nationally
recognized military re-enacting group and the modification
is required and necessary to accurately portray the weapon
for historical re-enactment purposes; the re-enactor is in
possession of a valid and current re-enacting group
membership credential; and the overall length of the weapon
as modified is not less than 26 inches.

The following was STRUCK:

An active member of
a bona fide, nationally recognized military re-enacting
group possessing a vintage rifle or modern reproduction
thereof with a barrel or barrels less than 16 inches in
length for the purpose of using the rifle during historical
re-enactments if: (A) the person has been issued a Curios
and Relics license from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; or (B) the modification
is required and necessary to accurately portray the weapon
for historical re-enactment purposes; the re-enactor is in
possession of a valid and current re-enacting group
membership credential; and the overall length of the weapon
as modified is not less than 26 inches.



That is MUCH clearer.

C&R's can own SBR's. Period. No restrictions or limitations on re-enacting.

Oh sweet lord.

I'm so frigging happy!!!!!!!!!

(The original was evidently struck down hastily as it *DID* open a loophole that allowed machineguns... temporarily...)

Already called my Sheriff. :)

Jeff White
September 12, 2012, 03:59 PM
Trent,
What is the Public Act, bill number or Statute?

Trent
September 12, 2012, 07:44 PM
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/fulltext.asp?Name=097-0936

Public Act 097-0936

HB4901 Enrolled LRB097 19207 RLC 64449 b

Trent
September 13, 2012, 03:03 PM
Spoke to the Tazewell County Sheriff, Robert Huston, for a half an hour today about gun rights, and the SBR legalization for C&R holders. Very positive conversation - he's gone to Springfield TWICE to testify on behalf of concealed carry in Illinois to committees.

Plan on getting a Form 1 sent through soon to the ATF soon with a cover letter citing the public act, and a copy of my C&R, so they don't get confused... :)

Happy days.. :)

Edit; postscript..

It's OUTSTANDING when a Sheriff will take the time to call you back, and speak at length on a subject. He obviously enjoys firearms.

shotgunjoel
September 13, 2012, 03:15 PM
So from what I read here, a C&R holder could have any rifle SBR, but a re-enactor can only have an SBR that is used for re-enactments. (and the OAL is still >26'') That doesn't make any sense to me, it'd seem that the C&R holder would be limited to C&R SBRs, but from what you posted that doesn't seem to be the case. I believe that stocked Hi-Powers, Lugers, C96s, etc. were already legal in Illinois. I recall seeing a man with a stocked C96 at a gun show in Springfield, and Simpson Ltd. in Galesburg carries these types of stocked pistols. Further on that point, since the actual receiver is the SBR, wouldn't such stocked pistol/SBRs not qualify because the stocks are easily removable?

Trent
September 13, 2012, 03:48 PM
shotgunjoel;

Yes, a federally licensed C&R FFL holder can possess ANY SBR, not just C&R SBR's.

A re-enactor still has a 26" length limit, and has to be a type of weapon they use in re-enactments (although, there's no reason you couldn't re-enact a modern battle...).

If you convert a pistol to a carbine (say, swap the slide with an upper), it's already legal in Illinois as long as it has a 16" barrel and is 24" overall in the most extended position (if collapsible/folding stock). This "became legal" after ATF ruling 2011-4. You can convert a pistol to a rifle and back again, but you can NOT convert a rifle to a pistol and back again. (If that makes any sense)

shotgunjoel
September 16, 2012, 12:24 AM
So are we still waiting on the governor to sign this, or am I just confused by the legislative process in my own state? From what I read on the link provided, it has been passed by both chambers, but nowhere does it say that Patty Q. signed it, or that it was sent to his office.

Trent
September 16, 2012, 02:03 AM
Click on the "bill status" and read the last few lines:

5/17/2012 House Passed Both Houses
6/15/2012 House Sent to the Governor
8/10/2012 House Governor Approved
8/10/2012 House Effective Date January 1, 2013
8/10/2012 House Public Act . . . . . . . . . 97-0936

MidwestRookie
September 16, 2012, 11:52 AM
I still feel like I'm dreaming..I'll be sending out for my c&r this week just in case I wake up and this is really happening..

:what:

Trent
September 16, 2012, 01:02 PM
MidwestRookie;

Same feeling. The day I found out, I kept telling my wife "pinch me, I think I'm still asleep" after I found out. Followed by "OWWW! DAMNIT I WASN'T SERIOUS!"

I REALLY want to SBR my PS90, an AR, an FS2000, and an AK. I've had an (arguably) useless AK pistol for 5 years. Throwing a stock on one of those would make them a LOT more fun. :)

MidwestRookie
September 16, 2012, 08:47 PM
The PS90 would be sick!

AR first for me..if I can just SBR my current lower, I'll be ordering a BCM 11.5" upper.

I assume we'll need to set up a trust for the NFA?

shotgunjoel
September 16, 2012, 10:10 PM
So how on earth did we get Pat Quinn to sign this?

EDIT:
Also, this passed with near unanimous support. Speaker Madigan and Acevedo (the guy who always introduces the anti-gun legislation) both voted for it. Do they not realize that this also applies to modern firearms? And that anyone can apply for a C&R super-easy? Was there some kind of deal made on this to pass it along with some other bill? I just have a hard time believing that this got through so easily without us having to give up something.

Trent
September 17, 2012, 10:35 AM
Midwest-

You don't need to set up a trust, in fact, you can't form a trust on a C&R as you can't apply for the C&R as a corporate entity like you can a normal FFL. Only individuals can apply for a C&R.

I don't think they bothered to read it. No one probably read past the first sentence on the synopsis: "Replaces everything after the enacting clause. Amends the Criminal Code of 1961. Changes the exemption from the unlawful use of weapons statute and the aggravated unlawful use of a weapon statute ... "

The Governor signed a whole stack of stuff that day. He was probably on autopilot and late for a golf game.

Trent
September 17, 2012, 10:48 AM
The question is, does this exempt MACHINE GUNS with barrels under 16" in length?


(c) Subsection 24-1(a)(7) does not apply to or affect any of the following:
[...]
(7) A person possessing a rifle with a barrel or
barrels less than 16 inches in length if: (A) the person
has been issued a Curios and Relics license from the U.S.
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; or (B)
the person is an active member of a bona fide, nationally
recognized military re-enacting group and the modification
is required and necessary to accurately portray the weapon
for historical re-enactment purposes; the re-enactor is in
possession of a valid and current re-enacting group
membership credential; and the overall length of the weapon
as modified is not less than 26 inches.


If you go look at UUW code under Subsection 24-1(a)(7) :
(http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=072000050K24-1)


Sec. 24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
[...]
(7) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or

carries:
(i) a machine gun, which shall be defined for the

purposes of this subsection as any weapon, which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manually reloading by a single function of the trigger, including the frame or receiver of any such weapon, or sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses, or carries any combination of parts designed or intended for use in converting any weapon into a machine gun, or any combination or parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person;

(ii) any rifle having one or more barrels less

than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches; or
(iii) any bomb, bomb-shell, grenade, bottle or

other container containing an explosive substance of over one-quarter ounce for like purposes, such as, but not limited to, black powder bombs and Molotov cocktails or artillery projectiles; or


It appears this allows legal MACHINE GUNS which had barrels under 16", as they cited the whole damn list under subsection 24-1(a)(7).

IT DOES NOT SAY SUBSECTION 24-1(a)(7)(ii), IT SAYS SUBSECTION 24-1(a)(7).


(without the (ii))

The way I'm reading this, machine guns with barrels under 16" are legal in IL for C&R holders.

EDIT: I've sent a letter to my Sheriff and our local States Attorney for clarification

Trent
September 17, 2012, 11:03 AM
Mods please rename title to

"Does Illinois Have SBR and certain machineguns now?"

Jeff White
September 17, 2012, 11:27 AM
Trent, the way I read the law you are right. However I am not an attorney, just a deputy. I will ask the states attorney when I see him and see what he says.

I would bet that the legislature "fixes" it in the veto session as soon as someone points it out. Quinn will probably veto the whole thing then.

Kind of reminds me of when NFA firearms were legalized for a period of a few days during the Thompson administration. As soon as word got out the legislature rushed to reverse itself, the ever cooperative BATF refused to process any applications and Thompson signed the reversal the day he got it.

Trent
September 17, 2012, 11:34 AM
Jeff;

Veto session is to override things that the governor has vetoed in prior sessions that year.

He's already signed this in to law; he didn't veto it.

Jeff White
September 17, 2012, 11:41 AM
Trent,
They can introduce other legislation in the veto session. They have done it before and the governor is pushing for them to address pension reform which wasn't vetoed. I would not be surprised to see a bill "fixing" this once the legislature realizes they have legalized machine guns.

The sad truth is that the legislature can do anything Mike Madigan wants it to do.

Trent
September 17, 2012, 11:46 AM
This public act replaces a public act that was passed in 2011 which ALSO had the same exemption.

(EDIT: Point being this has been standing as law for well over a year now, and THIS is a refinement to clear up language in the previous one)

They lumped C&R holders in to the same exemptions as military, law enforcement, and manufacturers (SOT). Sure, there's an 'under 16"' limitation, but that opens up a brave new world of SMG's and a wide variety of assault rifles.

Might not realize my dream of owning a transferable MG42, but I'd settle for an MP5 or Sten or Uzi or Mac or CAR-15 or... what a Christmas list indeed...

Trent
September 17, 2012, 11:48 AM
This is the pubic act passed in 2011:

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/fulltext.asp?name=097-0465&GA=97&SessionId=84&DocTypeId=HB&DocNum=0143&GAID=11&Session=

This new version just cleans up the language to separate out C&R holders.

(If they were going to fix the machinegun "loophole", they would have done it this time around, right?)

IL-Gunlobby
September 17, 2012, 12:40 PM
trent -- you are wrong about MGs and HB-4901.

as the author of the bill, it deals with cleaning up the language on C&R licensees being able to own SBRs.

it pertains to subsection 7 full autos are subsection 6 if memory serves me correct.

Don;t try to make more of this than what is it and get guys going for things that are not covered under the law. As to how this happened, it happened becuase many of us worked slowly and diligently to more the issue along without publicizing it and jumping up and down about what we were doing. The law takes effect on January 1. we are trying to keep our heads down till then and let it roll out.

Trent
September 17, 2012, 12:51 PM
No, section 6 of UUW is silencers (suppressors).

Section 7 of UUW code is machineguns, short barreled rifles, etc.

Section 24-1, section (a)(7) is quoted above as it appears in the UUW statutes.

The C&R exemption appears in the same list as law enforcement, military, and SOT manufacturers.

Trent
September 17, 2012, 12:56 PM
The big issue is how Illinois classifies the term "RIFLE".

Under federal law, a rifle is "A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. 18 USC"

Trent
September 17, 2012, 01:02 PM
trent -- you are wrong about MGs and HB-4901.

as the author of the bill, it deals with cleaning up the language on C&R licensees being able to own SBRs.

it pertains to subsection 7 full autos are subsection 6 if memory serves me correct.

Don;t try to make more of this than what is it and get guys going for things that are not covered under the law. As to how this happened, it happened becuase many of us worked slowly and diligently to more the issue along without publicizing it and jumping up and down about what we were doing. The law takes effect on January 1. we are trying to keep our heads down till then and let it roll out.

BTW, awesome piece of legislation, even if they classify "rifle" as only one shot per trigger pull under Illinois law. :)

Trent
September 17, 2012, 01:03 PM
One other question - since you authored the bill;

Are C&R's exempt from the 26" rule? With the placement of semicolons it's hard to understand if that is true or not. It appears that re-enactors have a 26" limit but C&R holders do not.

MidwestRookie
September 17, 2012, 01:09 PM
So if no Trust, we HAVE to get a Form 1 signed off on bya CLEO and do the fingerprints and all that? I'm worried about that part..

Trent
September 17, 2012, 01:26 PM
MidwestRookie -

Yes, Chief LEO signature is REQUIRED since C&R licenses can't be issued to corporate entities. There is no way around that.

I'm still worried about that too, my Sheriff won't commit to an answer until the States Attorney gives his opinion (and will probably wait until after January 1 to do so regardless.)

Jeff White
September 17, 2012, 01:27 PM
I don't know Trent. You have to look at legislative intent. 720 ILCS 5/24 (a)(7) says:

Sec. 24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(7) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries:
(i) a machine gun, which shall be defined for the purposes of this subsection as any weapon, which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manually reloading by a single function of the trigger, including the frame or receiver of any such weapon, or sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses, or carries any combination of parts designed or intended for use in converting any weapon into a machine gun, or any combination or parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person;
(ii) any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches; or
(iii) any bomb, bomb-shell, grenade, bottle or other container containing an explosive substance of over one-quarter ounce for like purposes, such as, but not limited to, black powder bombs and Molotov cocktails or artillery projectiles; or

Machine guns, SBRs and destructive devices are each defined in a separate sub-paragraph.

The exemption you are interested in as listed in 720 ILCS 5/24-2 (7)

(7) A person possessing a rifle with a barrel or
barrels less than 16 inches in length if: (A) the person has been issued a Curios and Relics license from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; or (B) the person is an active member of a bona fide, nationally recognized military re-enacting group and the modification is required and necessary to accurately portray the weapon for historical re-enactment purposes; the re-enactor is in possession of a valid and current re-enacting group membership credential; and the overall length of the weapon as modified is not less than 26 inches.
During transportation, any such weapon shall be broken down in a non-functioning state, or not immediately accessible.

It doesn't say machine gun which is defined in 720 ILCS 5/24-1 (a)(7) (ii) nor does it say shotgun which is defined along with a short barreled rifle in 720 ILCS 5/24-1 (A)(7)(iii).

I think a good argument could be made that the only thing the change did was allow a C&R holder to own a rifle with a barrel or barrels less than 16 inches in length.

I don't think the legislature intended the change to permit a C&R holder to possess machine guns, destructive devices or short barreled shotguns.

Trent
September 17, 2012, 01:46 PM
Right, but a machinegun can be "any weapon". Rifle, pistol, 4-barreled handgun that fires all barrels with a single pull of the trigger, etc.

Federal law doesn't classify "rifles" as "rifles" anymore if they have under 16" barrel length - they are classified by definition as "Firearm". Thus, one could argue that the federal legal definition of "rifle" - if applicable to Illinois law in absence of a formal definition - no longer applies. I don't know if USC 18 is even applicable to this, if it isn't, then the "single shot" phrasing on federal law has no bearing on it.

Sections (1) through (6) immediately proceeding the new section (7) don't make any qualifications specific to it.

If you look at criminal jury instructions in Illinois pertaining to unlawful use of weapons/aggravated unlawful use of weapons...

http://www.state.il.us/court/circuitcourt/CriminalJuryInstructions/CRIM%2018.00.pdf

The definitions for "handgun" (18.35I), "machinegun" (18.35D), "stun gun or taser" (18.35E), "firearm", etc are all defined.

There IS no definition of "RIFLE" or "SHOTGUN" issued to jurors.


I could FIND no such definition of RIFLE in the assembled criminal statutes of Illinois.


Some examples:

DEFINITION OF HANDGUN
The word “handgun” means a firearm designed to be held and fired by the use of a single
hand, and includes a combination of parts from which a firearm can be assembled.

Definition Of Firearm
The word “firearm” means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to
expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas, or escape of gas.

18.35D
Definition Of Machine Gun
The term “machine gun” means any weapon which [ (shoots) (is designed to shoot) (can
be readily restored to shoot) ] automatically more than one shot, without manually reloading by a
single function of a trigger, including the frame or receiver of such weapon.

IL-Gunlobby
September 17, 2012, 01:59 PM
my bad I had to go look at the criminal code again.

subsection 7 lists 3 different types of weapons. One is full autos, one is SBRs one is explosives. the expemtion for the new law is aimed at SBRs in (ii) not guns in (i).

I think the 26" will only apply to the re-enactors. but it is almost meaningless as if you measure an AR, with a buffertube under the 26" rule you could run a 7" barrel. Anything below that you might as well have a sig 226. since the 26" is measured with the stock open, most rifles render it moot due to the size of the receivers. \

And while a SBR is defined as a rifle, a full auto is not as there is a different definition for full autos than SBRs. a full auto can take on the form of a Glock, belt fed or shotgun. And SBR is just that something someone has turned into a SBR. a full auto may be a SBR, but it is still a full auto. and tus regulated very differently under state law.

Trent
September 17, 2012, 02:09 PM
You've made only two posts on the forum, claim to be the author of the public act we are discussing. Yet don't know the language? I corrected you on the silencer thing earlier (section 6), and you're now using language such as "I think the..."... if you wrote the bill, wouldn't you KNOW?

Can you take the time to verify you are, indeed, the author of the bill?

Not trying to be rude, but you did sort of pop up out of nowhere here, speaking with an air of authority, but with no introduction or credentials. :)

FYI: I live 25 minutes from Mr. Unes office, so I can verify it easily if you are who you claim to be; as the Chief Sponsor of the bill, he would know the author...

MidwestRookie
September 17, 2012, 02:33 PM
Trent, ToddNRA seems to be the guy "in the know" over on arfcom. Surely there's more to this bill than just him so go easy on IL-GL until we know for sure. We're all in this together now..

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_23/494514_Public_Act_97_0936_signed_8_10_2012___SBR_legal_with_CandR__starting_Jan_1_2013.html&page=1

Trent
September 17, 2012, 02:57 PM
Midwest;

Sure man. I'm not trying to start trouble. It's just the way it is written, it is pretty wide open for interpretation.

The argument that if a rifle is capable of firing more than on shot, it is no longer a rifle, but a machinegun, is bogus. They are STACKING terms. In such a way that a legally defined "handgun" could also be a "machine-gun" and is also a "firearm". It is clear about this in the language for machineguns, saying "any weapons".

It's like saying a cat has fur, a cat has paws, a cat has a tail, and so on. A firearm can fall in to multiple definitions.

And I could site probably 200 sources which state that a shoulder-fired arm is still called a rifle, regardless of whether it can fire one shot, or 20, with a single pull of the trigger.

Now, even if the text can be interpreted to include rifles which are also classified as machine-guns by legal definition, I won't run out and get a transfer request application submitted until A) the revised jury language is introduced, and B) there is case law supporting it.

I have no desire to be "that guy" that fights the meaning of the word "rifle" all the way up to the IL Supreme Court, while sitting in jail waiting for the agonizingly slow appellate process. :)

IL-Gunlobby
September 17, 2012, 03:38 PM
yea thats me at the other thread.

I am the NRA lobbyist in Illinois.

Trent -- My suggestion to you is stick to what you know. The exemption is specific to SBRs and only SBRs -- NOT any full autos.

I came over here to put out a fire before somone got in trouble or causes us trouble. Whether you like it or not Illinois statutes has a definition of SBRs and a definition of machinegun. the definition of a machinegun is desgined to get all kinds of full autos from hanguns on up.

I quoted the statute from memory knowing there were multiple sections, sorry I got it wrong, but I have written many parts of them and have worked on several of the latest Supreme Court cases our state court has heard.

you want to try getting a full auto, go ahead, I'll be the first guy to send you a tube of toothpaste while you'r sitting in the can.

And if you want to debate the number of pixies on the head of a pin go ahead and have the debate with yourself. your not doing anyone any favors by trying to argue the FA aspect of this law/bill.

BTW if you look at the exemption under (4) it deals with and exemption for full autos -- NOT SBRs.

If you possess a full auto, you will not meet any of the exemptions in 1,2,3, 4 5 or 6. and the exemptionin 7 is aimed at (ii) of section 7 not the whole para.

Jeff White
September 17, 2012, 03:43 PM
I'm not trying to start trouble. It's just the way it is written, it is pretty wide open for interpretation.

And eventually it will be interpreted in the courts if it survives the Fall session and actually takes effect. I really don't have much hope of that happening after the debacle during the Thompson administration.

If it does actually take effect the courts will look to legislative intent when they decide what it covers. I think a good case can be made that the legislature did not intend to legalize private ownership of machine guns or even a sawed off shotgun.

Let's take this small victory and run with it. No need to draw attention to it by stretching it into private citizens owning machine guns.

All it will take is for a Chicago media outlet to get a copy of this thread and start asking Ed Acevedo why he signed off on private citizens owning machine guns and this is dead before it ever becomes law.

Trent
September 17, 2012, 04:04 PM
If I was in a hurry to own full auto, I would have got a manufacturing FFL and my SOT when I had my gun shop. Or, move to any of 46 other states where it's legal. No toothpaste required.

FYI, if you get an SBR, you better be mindful of where you drive.

According to the way juries are trained (that above jury instruction document I linked to in post 31, page 23:

A person commits the offense of aggravated unlawful use of weapons when he
knowingly [ (sells) (manufactures) (purchases) (possesses) (carries) ]

[A] a rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length; while
[snip]
[3] on a public way within 1000 feet of the real property comprising a school.
[5] in residential property owned, operated, and managed by a public housing agency
[6] on the real property comprising residential property owned, operated, and managed by a public housing agency.
[7] on a public way within 1000 feet of the real property comprising residential property
owned, operated, and managed by a public housing agency.
[9] on the real property comprising a public park.
[10] on a public way within 1000 feet of the real property comprising a public park.
[12] on the real property comprising a courthouse.
[13] on a public way within 1000 feet of the real property comprising a courthouse.

(among other things.)

Trent
September 17, 2012, 04:06 PM
Jeff -

I understand completely.

I believe my questions are answered sufficiently relating to the SBR stuff. The other is non-relevant; I have other choices at my disposal to own full auto if I choose to do so (SOT, move somewhere else, etc).

If you're worried about Chicago, nuke the thread. :)

EDIT: Although, we should really begin questioning our lawmakers why machine-guns are illegal here for collectors, when they're legal in 90% of the rest of the country.... it's not like your average criminal can afford a $25,000 rifle, nor would they be able to pass the FBI background check required...

NG VI
September 17, 2012, 06:00 PM
...

How are you going to SBR an FS2000?

Trent
September 17, 2012, 06:11 PM
NG-VI - the barrel sticks out about 6" too far. :)

(EDIT: It's a minor thing, but I'd like to have about 4" knocked off and have it threaded for a standard flash suppressor)

Trent
September 17, 2012, 06:20 PM
The civilian FS2000 has a barrel that measures 19.750", to end of fixed/pinned flash suppressor, BTW.

Correct barrel length on F2000 is 400mm, or 15.75", with a threaded barrel.

NG VI
September 17, 2012, 07:03 PM
Aha, I was going by memory, thought it was a little stubbier on the front end.

Trent
September 17, 2012, 07:27 PM
The military rifles (F2000) do stick out the front some. But the civilian models stick out almost 4" more than THAT. It isn't bad, by any stretch, but I'd like my firearms to be "correct".

What I told the Sheriff when I spoke to him on the phone, is as a collector, I take great personal enjoyment in seeing period weapons properly configured. I told him, that on several of the firearms I own, my eye is instantly drawn to the obvious "flaws", and it detracts from my enjoyment. I also gave him detailed instructions on C&R application process, how to go about doing Form 1, and Form 4 applications in case he, his friends and associates, or any of his deputies, also felt this same way. ;)

Also; I see LEO got the "right" to employ silencers this year in IL.

Maybe we'll get them as civilians at some point. Sure would be nice to be considerate of my neighbors. I bet if you went door to door out where I live, every single one of my neighbors would sign a petition to allow silencers. On any given weekend you can hear gunfire from 6-8 sources from different directions, sometimes simultaneously, where I live. We'd ALL sign off for quiet guns, I'm sure. :)

fehhkk
October 21, 2012, 11:05 PM
Question: who is your chief LEO? Your county Sheriff?
Or your town's chief of police?

Trent
October 22, 2012, 01:54 PM
Fehhkk; Any of the above.

If you live in an incorporated town, you can use your chief of police.

If he won't sign, or you live out of a town, you can use your Sheriff or States Attorney.

If neither of them will sign, you can use a judge in your county who has the ability to try criminal cases and pass sentencing.

If none of those will sign, you're SOL.

fehhkk
October 22, 2012, 06:32 PM
Thanks Trent. I'm thinking about applying for my C&R since SBRs is a topic that fascinates me (I'd love to SBR my UMP45 conversion).

Does a C&R license basically allow me to purchase something like a an M1 Garand (or another rifle qualified as C&R) and have it shipped directly to my house after filling an 4473?

Will it give the ATF a reason to check what other firearms I have? I understand I will have to open my books for them upon request (like a regular FFL), and have a logbook of transactions and such.

lilguy
October 22, 2012, 08:19 PM
I have a CR and you must present a signed copy of you license to take possession of the gun. You do not have to Fill out a 4473. That's why you can order them over the net and have them sent to the license address. You can hold a license and never use it , unlike a title one licensee. I understand you only are required to produce your CR records and arms if requested, I suppose they can ask you about your other guns but I don't know anyone who ever has been and I don't know how I would answer. I think you can ask to see a search warrant but the whole idea of that confrontation makes my blood run cold. Just keep good records and keep things in order. A CR has to be handled as such which is different from the rest of your collection. And if you're in Illinois and hope to be part of the SBR crowd you have three areas you need to watch carefully.

Trent
October 23, 2012, 11:24 AM
fehhkk;

Firearms manufactured over 50 years ago, and items on the C&R list, can be shipped straight to your house. Or you can buy them at a gun show / gun shop and bring them home.

When you get the Curio and Relics of War list you'll drool and laugh for a bit while reading it. There are things listed which mere mortals cannot acquire. German PAK40's, Nebelwerfer MLRS, and so on. :)

One small point to remember, however, is listed items are STILL subject to all NFA laws, so before you run out and buy that beautiful unfired Panzerfaust anti tank disposable launcher, you will still require a destructive device license. It also means that any illegal unregistered machinegun bring-backs tucked away in relative's attics are still very much illegal.

Since most of the list is still highly regulated, it makes the official C&R list a bit.. laughable.

The ATF won't have any right or reason to check your other firearms. Being an FFL, you DO have to present your bound book on demand, which contains acquisition and disposition records. However, your other firearms are not fair game for inspection unless they have a warrant. This is different than a normal FFL where the entire premises is subject to inspection.

(Yes, I tried to add a bit of humor to my post.) :)

fehhkk
October 23, 2012, 10:24 PM
:)

Appreciate the clarifications!

Like I read in another post, since this new law will set new precedents, I will love to see what CLEOs will sign off a Form I.

I wonder if a letter inquiring about this would be a better idea just to test the waters?

Trent
October 24, 2012, 11:38 AM
Fehhkk - I've already spoken with both my county sheriff and state's attorney. Our county sheriff is very pro-gun, our state's attorney a bit more standoffish.. but both did at least return my phone calls and engage in a conversation about it.

Of course, they're politicians and it has to survive the veto session, so neither would 100% confirm whether they'd sign the form.

lilguy
October 24, 2012, 02:08 PM
We will know within a number of weeks whether the change to the UUW statute holds. I will wait a bit before applying to see if the CLEO issues changes. Since trusts will still not be in play, how does an NFA item tramsfer upon the death of the CR license holder?

mp510
October 24, 2012, 03:26 PM
Midwest-

You don't need to set up a trust, in fact, you can't form a trust on a C&R as you can't apply for the C&R as a corporate entity like you can a normal FFL. Only individuals can apply for a C&R.

I don't think they bothered to read it. No one probably read past the first sentence on the synopsis: "Replaces everything after the enacting clause. Amends the Criminal Code of 1961. Changes the exemption from the unlawful use of weapons statute and the aggravated unlawful use of a weapon statute ... "

The Governor signed a whole stack of stuff that day. He was probably on autopilot and late for a golf game.

A trust can not get a C&R. I know for fact that an LLC can- which is something that I have previously confirmed with ATF. I believe that a corporation can as well.

Trent
October 24, 2012, 05:05 PM
LLC costs $500 a year to maintain in Illinois in corporate reporting fees, expensive workaround, that one.

lilguy
October 24, 2012, 08:46 PM
Here's a scenario. My wife is a professional corporation. I am VP of said corporation and holder of CRL. Could a SBR pass to me in this situation?
What are the rules on inheritance of NFA items from an individual as compared
to a corp?

Trent
October 25, 2012, 11:40 AM
Well, not sure about that.

The Illinois Statute is pretty clear about stating "a person who holds a valid..." does that exclude corporations?

Not sure if the legal definition of person includes corporate entities. Any lawyers lurking around?

Midwest
October 25, 2012, 01:40 PM
Well, not sure about that.

The Illinois Statute is pretty clear about stating "a person who holds a valid..." does that exclude corporations?

Not sure if the legal definition of person includes corporate entities. Any lawyers lurking around?
Corporate 101

People form corporations for various reasons but one reason is for liability. If the company is a corporation and it gets sued and loses, they can go after the company's assets. If the company is not a corporation then the company including the owner can be sued and go after all of the owners assets including their house, car, and anything else they own.

A corporation is a distinct legal body separate from a 'person' . However there is nothing to prevent John Smith from starting John Smith Corporation. A corporation can be looked as a legal 'buffer'. But if the corporation is not run as a corporation which things like regular meetings, meeting notes and so on. Then the 'corporate veil' can be 'pierced' which means if the govt. or the person suing the corporation can prove that corporation is not run as a corporation. They can 'pierce the corporate veil' and remove the 'buffer' of protection that a corporation offers.


Disclaimer:
I am not a lawyer, this is broad general information only. A person needs to contact a licensed lawyer in their own area who is knowledgeable in these areas for proper legal advice. And look how state laws and federal laws apply in matters like this.

Trent
October 26, 2012, 12:37 PM
I understand what a corporation is, but the questions still haven't been answered.

Can an S or C corporation be issued a C&R by the ATF?

If so, does the language of the Illinois law, by naming "a person..", preclude corporations which hold C&R's from possessing SBR's? (Assuming a C or S corp can get an SBR).

I say S or C corp because LLC's are several times more expensive to maintain in Illinois than an S corp - I started and ran an LLC for several years when I had my dealer FFL. I've ran an S corp for 9 years now, they're cheaper (to a point).

lilguy
October 27, 2012, 12:09 PM
There are issues best taken up with a NFA experienced lawyer. Our law firm has no one experienced with this and and I'm not interested in paying for their education. I'll start researching Illinois Gun Trust lawyers unless someone here
has a name.

Motorman2061
November 5, 2012, 12:33 PM
This is interesting. Will see how it shakes out in 2013.

Trent
November 5, 2012, 07:21 PM
Yeah. There's only really one gun I want to convert to SBR, that's a PS90.

Probably my second pick is an AK pistol conversion to a Klasnikov. Those AK pistol things are next to useless without a stock. :)

That'll probably do it for me. Maybe an 11.5 AR-15. Dunno. Don't shoot the AR much.

lilguy
November 5, 2012, 07:39 PM
Could you cut down the barrel and stock on a Nitro Express double gun?

MasterSergeantA
November 6, 2012, 02:16 PM
Could you cut down the barrel and stock on a Nitro Express double gun?
You could, yes. Doing it would define a certain level of insanity, but the option does exist.

lilguy
November 6, 2012, 02:29 PM
Thanks, I was just wondering if what you want to do has to make sense.

rodinal220
November 18, 2012, 09:34 AM
There is a box to check(line #7)on the C&R application for a Corporation,what kind BATFE accepts I have no idea.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5310-16.pdf

MasterSergeantA
November 18, 2012, 12:50 PM
Thanks, I was just wondering if what you want to do has to make sense.
No rule that says it does. If there were such a rule/law, a lot of people would be in trouble.

shotgunjoel
November 26, 2012, 10:32 PM
So the veto session has started. Has anybody heard anything about this being rolled back, I haven't.

Trent
November 27, 2012, 10:25 AM
Haven't heard anything. Remember this bill merely cleans up the LANGUAGE of an older bill that was passed. (SBR has been legal for a couple of YEARS in Illinois - the problem is they wrote the language funny so the legality for a C&R without a re-enactor's membership was especially vague.)

Phatty
December 13, 2012, 02:23 PM
I stumbled upon this thread and looked at the law in question. It is a great example of some extremely sloppy drafting (to the extent that the statute accomplishes a lot more than the author intended).

First, what hasn't been mentioned here yet is that the law states, "Subsection 24-1(a)(7) does not apply to or affect any of the following: ... (7) A person possessing a rifle with a barrel or barrels less than 16 inches in length if: (A) the person has been issued a Curios and Relics license from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; or ...."

Read literally, none of the prohibited acts listed in 24-1(a)(7), such as possessing a machinegun, apply to a person who possesses a SBR and C&R license. So, for example, 24-1(a)(7) prohibits the possession of a Molotav cocktail. But, based on a literal reading of the law, a person is allowed to possess a Molotav cocktail so long as they are also in possession of a SBR and C&R license.

I think what the author intended to write was "Subsection 24-1(a)(7) does not apply to or affect any of the following: ... (7) The possession of a rifle with a barrel or barrels less than 16 inches in length if: (A) the person possessing the rifle has been issued a Curios and Relics license from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; or ...."


The second problem has been identified by Trent. Nothing about this new law limits its application to semi-automatic rifles only. No matter what the alleged author says in this thread about what was intended, the language of the statute says something different. A court is required to apply the plain meaning of the words of a statute (without looking at the "intent" of the legislature) unless there is some ambiguity in the statute, and this statute is completely unambiguous.

Finally, I have a feeling that a lot of the anti-gun legislators who voted for this bill thought that the only SBR's being legalized were antique SBR's. That is probably not sloppy drafting but an intentional feature that was kept on the down-low.

All that being said, I wouldn't want to be the test subject that first tries to assert these loop holes in the law. You may eventually get off, but you'll first be put through the ringer.

MasterSergeantA
December 13, 2012, 05:44 PM
Thanks, I was just wondering if what you want to do has to make sense.
Never been a requirement in the past. First, the laws would need to make sense.

lilguy
December 14, 2012, 05:32 AM
Short barrel rifles are/have been legal in Illinois now? Anyone tried to convert or transfer one yet?

Phatty
December 14, 2012, 10:03 AM
Can an S or C corporation be issued a C&R by the ATF?
Yes.

If so, does the language of the Illinois law, by naming "a person..", preclude corporations which hold C&R's from possessing SBR's? (Assuming a C or S corp can get an SBR).
A "person" is broadly defined in the Illinois criminal code to include any possible legal entity. An S Corp, C corp, LLC, partnership, trust would all qualify as a "person."

So, in short, beginning on January 1, 2013, an S Corp can obtain a C&R license and then legally possess a SBR in Illinois.

shotgunjoel
January 5, 2013, 10:08 AM
So, has anyone filed yet?

Trent
January 5, 2013, 12:20 PM
I have the fingerprint cards and forms sitting here, but I've been too busy to get my but own to the Sheriff's office.

Also was KIND of waiting to see if they'll waive the Chief LEO requirement soon on the Form3/Form4's.

Just because I don't LIKE asking anyone for permission.

Any update on that end?

lilguy
February 12, 2013, 03:20 PM
So it's law now. I have a C+R lic., do I need to become a C corp also or do I need to form a corp with a lic? Does the ATF issue C+Rs to Corps, Can I get one as an individual with a C+R?

Trent
February 12, 2013, 06:27 PM
If you have the C&R already, download the form for your SBR manufacture from the ATF web site, and order the correct fingerprint cards (same place).

lilguy
February 17, 2013, 08:49 PM
Trent , could you be a bit more in depth. There is a form for manufacturing a SBR? Is it something I have to do or do I give it to a NFA specific GS. Could or should I send it back to the manufacturer?

Trent
February 18, 2013, 07:58 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=676229&highlight=sbr

See post #2 and #4 (CLEO signoff is still required if you're an individual; you'll fill it out as an INDIVIDUAL instead of a trust, if you got your C&R as an individual, you'll need to get fingerprinted, and have CLEO signoff.)

The rest modify to your needs (you may not be doing an AR....)

Phatty
March 6, 2013, 06:58 PM
So has anyone taken advantage of the new law in Illinois yet?

Trent
March 6, 2013, 07:59 PM
Not yet, I'm waiting on the NFA ruling change to not require CLEO signature. My Sheriff would sign, no doubt, but I *really* hate having to "ask permission" for things.

lilguy
March 8, 2013, 09:19 AM
I want to see how the story unfolds before jumping into the fire. I also would like to see the CLEO sign off done away with. If they ban the guns this is all moot.

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