"Putting down the man gun"


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Old Dog
September 13, 2012, 09:20 PM
In an issue of SWAT Magazine a few months ago, Patrick Rogers wrote an article titled, "Putting down the Man Gun," which detailed his decision to start carrying primarily a 9mm pistol (S&W M&P-9) over his once-favored .45 ACP (1911).

Similarly, a recent interview with Travis Haley had him stating that his primary carry gun was in 9mm also. (Believe he may favor Glocks.)

Comes now Chris Costa, who also admits packing a nine most of the time (also the Glock 19) ...

Seasoned trainers all, they all seem to believe that being able to shoot lots of rounds downrange faster AND more accurately is important, though Rogers discussed other reasons for going to the 9mm.

For those of us gettin' on in years, practicing with a 9mm can be delightful (especially if one's strong arm is riddled with arthritis in the wrist and fingers). On a recent range visit, I re-discovered that my venerable West German SIG P-226 is the softest-shooter of all my nines, as well as the most accurate pistol I own (well, I have one Series 70 Colt's Gov't Model that would probably edge it).

Now I note that my usual off-duty carry .45, a LW Commander XSE, is really about the same size as my P-226 (albeit not nearly as wide) and almost identical in size to my duty M&P-9 ... all have barrels about 4.25 - 4.40 inches but laid one on top of the other, they all print about the same size, except the Colt is obviously narrower, which does make it easier to pack.

With the stellar 18-round Mec-Gar mags for the SIG (and then how 'bout the 20-rounder for a spare?), the factory 17-rounders for the S&W, I can sure pack a lot more firepower by going to a nine, which for me, conceals almost as well, even OWB in a Kramer Belt Scabbard (my favorite pancakes) or a Galco Concealable. Yeah, for IWB, the SIG and the Smith aren't quite as nice, but they still ride remarkably comfortably in Milt Sparks VM-IIs.

So, I am evaluating. I have full confidence in my 9mm loads (Gold Dot 124 grain +Ps), and frankly, my recent shooting sessions have me shooting much more accurately, much faster, with my 9s.

Anyone else besides this 1911 dinosaur contemplating giving up The Man Gun? (But only for carry -- the 1911 is still The King -- just as Elvis, though dead, is.)
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh577/Beau360/DSCN0158.jpg

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Checkman
September 13, 2012, 09:28 PM
Sure. I love my .357 magnums and my 45 autos, but I carry a Glock 19 on duty. A Glock 26 is my off-duty and a S&W Model 49 Bodyguard is my back-up. I also shoot my 9mm's and .38 Special Revolvers a whole lot more than my magnums and 45's.

I'm 44 and this is a fairly recent development for me. Just ten years ago I was all about heavy bullets and power. I get it.

browningguy
September 13, 2012, 09:36 PM
I have arthritis in both hands and switched to 9mm for carry many years ago, primarily BHP's. Now I have switched to an XDm in 9mm, it's even softer shooting.

2wheels
September 13, 2012, 09:55 PM
I didn't give up my "man guns"... I just added a 9mm to the mix. Luckily we can get 1911s in pretty much any caliber now, so I've got an EMP 9 that I absolutely love.

Certaindeaf
September 13, 2012, 10:00 PM
I thought this was a "I shot the Sheriff" type thread. That would be odd, anyway..lolz

crazyjennyblack
September 13, 2012, 10:01 PM
Don't worry y'all. You menfolk can put down your .45's for a while. Let the women happily pick up the slack! :neener:

Certaindeaf
September 13, 2012, 10:04 PM
Oooh!

Checkman
September 13, 2012, 10:26 PM
crazyjennyblack

Don't worry y'all. You menfolk can put down your .45's for a while. Let the women happily pick up the slack!


Your time is coming crazyjennyblack. :p

KenW.
September 13, 2012, 10:30 PM
I stay qualified on my XD45c, XDM40c, and XD9sc. When I dress in the morning I put on the 9mm.

Esoxchaser
September 13, 2012, 10:31 PM
I figured out a while back that I could put more energy and more displacement accurately into a target with a 9 than with a .45, .40 etc.. Lately I have been carryimg mainly an EMP or 938 in 9. Both are very easy to live with. Pin shooting, I have been beating the .45 toting lads at the range with a 9 because of the speed and accuracy I can get. That turns some heads.

Walkalong
September 13, 2012, 10:51 PM
I shoot the 9 more these days than I used to, but I still carry the .45 (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=127161&stc=1&d=1283690603) if I carry a full sized auto.

A sweet easy to shoot gun (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=115220&stc=1&d=1265772620) for sure.

MrDig
September 13, 2012, 10:55 PM
I own a 1911 .45 acp because, well I do.There is a romanticized idea about an American G.I. Storming an enemy with a 1911 as the only gun he had. (Frightening as hell for the actual G.I.s that did it) but kids of my Generation heard our dads talk about the war and what it was like. Plus all the movies. I own a 1911 because I think it is a classic gun that everyone should have.
I carry 9mm and shoot Hi-Powers a lot because I'm just a better shooter with them.

rogerjames
September 13, 2012, 11:10 PM
Here ya go... 9mm vs 45 gelatin videos

http://m.youtube.com/#/playlist?list=PL3F37FF69375FAD3C&desktop_uri=%2Fplaylist%3Flist%3DPL3F37FF69375FAD3C

Certaindeaf
September 13, 2012, 11:14 PM
^
Gelatin shots are the best.

HDCamel
September 13, 2012, 11:22 PM
I'm still young and my joints feel fine.
I shoot my 1911 better than anything besides my SAA.

I think I'll carry a .45 for a while yet.

Deaf Smith
September 13, 2012, 11:40 PM
While my Dan Wesson .45 is a "Man's Gun"

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=171556&d=1347416251

My two N frame .44 magnums and Super Red Hawk .454 are REAL manguns!

Deaf

Certaindeaf
September 14, 2012, 12:30 AM
You spelled mangum wrong.

fastest45ever
September 14, 2012, 03:09 AM
"mangum"
is what you get when you think a man gun is a .500 Linebaugh Maximum, and you haven't shot full house loads before.

You become a 'man' with 'gums', lacking teeth.:evil:

Seriously: You think any of these guns recoil, and the difference of 2-3 ft lbs is enough to post a thread on?:uhoh:

bikerdoc
September 14, 2012, 04:04 AM
Didnt a 9 vs 45 thread just get closed?

You want some one down? 357

fastest45ever
September 14, 2012, 08:44 AM
I think you really need to get rid of that 1911, since you are too old for it.;)
I'll give you 50 bucks;-), you pay shipping. :D

I'm sure those plastic guns will hold their value like 1911's. :evil:

(This is HUMOR)

Robert
September 14, 2012, 09:17 AM
If you don't have something to say related to the topic at hand please don't post. And play nice or this will be locked, just like the last one.

627PCFan
September 14, 2012, 09:55 AM
This seems to be inline with the evolution of thought (Including the militarys) viewpoint of overwhelming fire compared to single/double shot accuracy. Everyone wants higher capacity and more rounds downrange. This did not work out well recently in NY city for 8? civies.

FWIW, I thought this was the man gun :)

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii15/JRSpicer426/bruise007.jpg

silversport
September 14, 2012, 10:40 AM
http://www.handgunsandammunition.com/general-semiautos/8852-capacity-caliber.html

many people choose one or the other over capacity instead of caliber...the performance of modern day cartridges making the gap much closer than it ever was...

Bill

olafhardtB
September 14, 2012, 10:51 AM
Every living thing I ever shot with a 22 either died or ran off.

The Bushmaster
September 14, 2012, 10:55 AM
I'm near 70 and still carry a .45 ACP in a Kimber UCC II and plan on carrying it for a long time. Oh say...Maybe another 30 years....

Kyle M.
September 14, 2012, 10:58 AM
I don't know why but if I pick up a gun in .45 and the same model in 9mm, I almost always shoot the .45 better.

Checkman
September 14, 2012, 10:58 AM
If you don't have something to say related to the topic at hand please don't post. And play nice or this will be locked, just like the last one.

Thank you.

hso
September 14, 2012, 11:15 AM
I carry a custom BHP Light Weight. I carry it because I'm most accurate with it at speed and that's because it fits me perfectly. Since most antisocial encounters are over in just a handful of rounds I want to be on target as quickly as possible and the BHP allows me to do that better than any of my 1911s.

Certaindeaf
September 14, 2012, 11:20 AM
^
That's a sweet gun.. my grail gun. Wish I had one.

Trent
September 14, 2012, 11:39 AM
I keep a 45 by the bed. But, my travel gun is a 9mm. (This is actually in a holster, not just wedged next to the seat.)

Also; image was taken in North Carolina, not Illinois - I can't carry a loaded gun in Illinois. Our Governor is afraid of his citizens, or something.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s720x720/599612_440923509271918_1263101500_n.jpg

Trent
September 14, 2012, 11:42 AM
Back to the OP's question;

I love shooting 9mm. Cheaper, I'm more accurate with it, I can shoot faster with it, and so on.

Being able to shoot about 2x as fast with a handgun, accurately, is NOT something trivial, either. Being able to shoot one handed far more accurately is great as well. I can't easily handle the recoil of a 45 one handed. I *can* manage a 9mm just fine.

(In / from a car, if attacked, one handed shooting might be all you CAN do; might not be time or space to get a proper grip)

Elm Creek Smith
September 14, 2012, 12:49 PM
I get up to go to work and buckle on my duty belt holding a Smith & Wesson Model 686-6 loaded with .357 Magnum ammunition. A Smith & Wesson Model 37 goes in my off-side front pocket. All the other officers carry Glock 22's. Off duty carry is a three-inch Smith & Wesson Model 13 and the Model 37.

I'd carry a Pistol, .45 ACP, M1911A1, if our agency didn't require double-action duty weapons. On the other hand, I miss my original CZ-75 in 9X19mm and am considering a TriStar C-100 in 9X19mm.

ECS

JTQ
September 14, 2012, 01:11 PM
In an issue of SWAT Magazine a few months ago, Patrick Rogers wrote an article titled, "Putting down the Man Gun," which detailed his decision to start carrying primarily a 9mm pistol (S&W M&P-9) over his once-favored .45 ACP (1911).

Similarly, a recent interview with Travis Haley had him stating that his primary carry gun was in 9mm also. (Believe he may favor Glocks.)

Comes now Chris Costa, who also admits packing a nine most of the time (also the Glock 19) ...
The late Paul Gomez also posted his preference for the 9MM on the THR just a short time before he passed away. Most of these trainers do, for the most part, cite a tactical reason for preferring the 9MM over other rounds.

However, the trend in law enforcement seems to be going the other way. While at one time the 9MM was extremely popular, and in some circles it no doubt still is, in the Jan/Feb 2011 issue of American Handgunner, Massad Ayoob lists the caliber choices of the nations state police officers. At least at the state police level, the 9MM was the least popular, being issued only by Indiana and New Jersey State Police. In order of popularity (by the number of states that issue a particular caliber) is the, .40S&W, .357Sig, .45ACP, .45GAP, and finally 9MM.

I often wonder if the 9MM as the choice of the trainers is more motivated by cost and wear and tear on their bodies than performance (certainly a pistol preference could also be a factor). I'm sure all of these trainers shoot extremely high round counts, and while they probably do get some "freebie" ammo from manufacturers, shooting 9MM sure must save them a bunch of money. Shooting thousands of rounds of a heavy recoiling round per week could certainly take a long term toll on anybody. If your job is teaching procedures, there is certainly an advantage to shooting a less expensive and lighter recoiling round.

silversport
September 14, 2012, 01:33 PM
actually...from what I've followed lately...the 9mm seems to be making a huge resurgence in Law Enforcement circles...

Bill

Old Fuff
September 14, 2012, 01:41 PM
It should be noticed that the opening post is based on a number of professional trainers changing from big to middle bore pistols. The one thing they have in common is that are highly skilled marksman who can do what has to be done very quickly. Those that can put a bullet where it needs to be put, and do so consistantly are well served with a middle-bore. Besides the obvious they have less recoil to contend with, and more rounds to do it with.

When you get to the bottom line, it is still bullet placement that counts.

Certaindeaf
September 14, 2012, 01:53 PM
Didn't we hear that the FBI is going to go back to the 9x19? don't know if it's true or not

smalls
September 14, 2012, 02:38 PM
:confused:

I carry a 9mm 1911.

Jeff White
September 14, 2012, 02:39 PM
I have carried .38 special, .357 magnum, 9mm and .45 acp both on and off duty. I have never felt like I was inadequately armed with any of those calibers.

It's not the caliber, with modern expanding ammunition anything .38 special or bigger is adequate for defensive use.

It makes no difference if it's a revolver or semi auto. Both will do the job.

It's the man, not the tool.

Sapper771
September 14, 2012, 02:42 PM
I did the same thing a few years ago. I was carrying a 1911. Then I switched to a G21/G30. Then I went to a Glock 17.

I had many reasons behind my switch. First , I was tired of messing around with the 1911s (rusting, high maintenance, gunsmithing, cost of parts, reliability, etc). I had experience with Glocks and carried one on Duty. I switched to the Glock 21/30 because it got me into Glock, but allowed me to keep the 45acp. My qualification scores at work got better after the switch.

After a while, I began looking at stopping power. The majority of professionals say that placement is key. Most of our respected Members on THR also agree with the statement. I researched several 9mm loads and their street performance.


A friend of mine decided to jump on board with me and help evaluate the caliber switch. We debated, argued, brainstormed, and pro/conned it to death. When were finished, we came up with a summary: The 9mm will allow us to train twice as much on the same dime. Training twice as much will bring more proficiency. More proficiency will bring more accuracy(shot placement).

I purchased an OD Green frame Glock 17, two holsters, and three spare mags. Reloaded a couple thousand rounds of various weight FMJ, Plated, and HP bullets. The evaluation went through without a hitch. So I officially started carrying the G17. I also purchased a G19 and a G26 a few months later.

What I had now was a system. When concealment was not an issue, I had the G17. When concealment was an issue, I had the G19 and G26. Most of the parts were interchangeable. G17/18 mags could be used in all 3 pistols. All the holsters I have can accept all three.

I have nothing negative to report other than dealing with the brass to the face issue (now fixed without help from Glock) . Due to the weather (hot and humid) I carry the G19 more than the G17. The G26 gets carried a few times and is great in an IWB. I may just stick with the G19 year around because it is such a great all around pistol.

I am not sure about Haley and Costa. One time you see them with a 1911, then next with a M&P. I have heard them say that they like Glocks, but prefer them with a grip reduction.

tomrkba
September 14, 2012, 03:06 PM
I don't really see "shooting thousands of rounds" as advocacy for the 9x19mm cartridge. Most trainers are very logical in their approach and this does not seem to be sufficient justification for the change. Every instructor I have ever trained with was far more concerned about overall effectiveness and for many years technology did not provide the advantages offered by 45 ACP and other larger calibers.

I know that most police officers are not "gun people" and do not take their firearms training very seriously. Ed McGivern lamented about this very topic in his 1930's book Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. Most officers consider qualifications to be sufficient practice (my neighbors did and they were pathetic shooters). The lighter recoil of the 9x19mm round may offer some advantages for those folks.

Ramone
September 14, 2012, 06:11 PM
Don't worry y'all. You menfolk can put down your .45's for a while. Let the women happily pick up the slack! :neener:
After one of her first trips to the range with me, my ex (five foot nuthin, 100 with her boots on) annouced that she was going to get a .45- which flabbergasted her ex NYPD .38 wheelgun Dad.

"that's a helluva lotta gun!"

"Dad, I am SMALL. Anything I shoot has to stay shot- I can't start wrestling with 'em!"

A few nights later we worked out a scale that matched her desire for a .45 to my 6' 6" 280 lbs CO buddies .380 EDC.

On that scale, I get a 9mm.

We ever after refered to .45ACP as the girly gun.

DC Plumber
September 14, 2012, 07:35 PM
Well, to each, his own.

I can see if a guy doesn't reload, an autoloading 9mm makes a lot of sense vs. a 45acp, if you can get the platform you like, which is likely.

For self defense, I'd carry the most powerful gun that I can shoot accurately. I switch from my LCP to my 454 Alaskan depending on my mood and where I am. If I were a police officer, I'm sure I'd have different opinions.

It sure would be nice if 45 ammo got cheaper because everyone was shooting 9mm instead of 45acp.

Deaf Smith
September 14, 2012, 08:41 PM
A couple of 'man guns' of mine. Kimber Gold Match & S&W 625 .45 acp.

Deaf

fastest45ever
September 15, 2012, 03:34 AM
Originally I went to .45 since I liked having big bullets when loading on a Dillon 550. Better and easier for big fingers to place, and more consistent.

I also found that once settled on a load, my .45's were always more accurate then my 9MM's. I also had problems finding a combination that shot anywhere near as well as my custom 1911's. These included a couple Browning Hi-Powers, FN's, that I wish I still had, a Sig P226, and those are the ones I remember.

In defense of the 9's, I didn't put as much time into customizing the 9's, in particular because parts and customsmiths weren't as easy to find for other guns as for the 1911. This was pre-Glock, by the way.

As the laws in my state tighten, and it becomes impossible to get a CCW permit, concealment trumps power. Also I stopped reloading.

The combination has resulted in wanting to have as many calibers as possible to take advantage of the economy fluctuations. In other words when .45 is too expensive, I don't buy it. Likewise when a great deal comes up on 9MM I jump on it.

I consider one of the advantages of 9MM is more truncated cone ammo available for less, and in lighter bullet weights that may not over-penetrate.

The 9MM I do have, a Kahr, is very accurate and I am also fairly happy with the velocity I get out of it.

Along with .357/.38 revolvers, I find I can generally find a good to great deal on ammunition that I would be comfortable carrying at one time or another.

This day and age, if you don't have time to reload, having as many calibers as possible gives you a variety of possible ammo deals to pick from.

With all the variety in small .45 ACP guns, I'm less inclined to buy another 9, and more likely to go with a .45. Next on my list is a Kahr PM 45, or the slightly larger version.

If I was worried about recoil, and I could find it for the right price, I'd probably be looking at .45 ACP in a light for caliber truncated cone, say 185-200 grains, at higher velocity.

If the rationale is shot placement is king, then why not use the absolute most accurate combination you can come up with? There has been an awful lot of research done on .45 ACP/1911 target loads. If you need to reduce recoil, and want the fastest split times with pin point accuracy that might be easier to achieve with a 1911 then any other gun, just due to the number of people that shoot 1911's in comp, the number of trick parts,
and the ammo research done for it. I would guess even a 1911 target wadcutter, target load, with proper shot placement, would be very effective.;)

TAKtical
September 15, 2012, 04:09 AM
I can put 20 rounds of 9mm on a small silhouette at 25 yards with my glock 17 faster than 8 rounds from my 1911's. Ive trained more with 9mm, im more accurate with 9mm and Im much faster with it. Thats why I usually carry it.

76shuvlinoff
September 15, 2012, 08:53 AM
Got an all steel .45 on the night stand, a .38 in the nightstand, a tupperware .40 in the truck and usually a .380 in my pocket.

Let me think about it.... yep still feel like a man so I'm good, carry on.


.

scaatylobo
September 15, 2012, 10:09 AM
I fully understand and appreciate a man smart enough to know [ and deal with ] his limitations.

I am still carrying my ex duty Glock 23,and its getting harder to shoot more than a few mag's without pain [ LOD stuff ].

I find the S&W .40 is harder on the hand than the 9 MM or the .45 ACP.

I own a 'few' 9 MM's and the G-19 is very close to taking the place of the G-23.

I am happy to see many get wiser as they age,I see more than a few silly comments here and I attribute them to the younger and SO much tougher crowd.

They too shall age [ if lucky ] and will see how wise we were :D.

Lawdawg45
September 15, 2012, 11:52 AM
In an issue of SWAT Magazine a few months ago, Patrick Rogers wrote an article titled, "Putting down the Man Gun," which detailed his decision to start carrying primarily a 9mm pistol (S&W M&P-9) over his once-favored .45 ACP (1911).

Similarly, a recent interview with Travis Haley had him stating that his primary carry gun was in 9mm also. (Believe he may favor Glocks.)

Comes now Chris Costa, who also admits packing a nine most of the time (also the Glock 19) ...

Seasoned trainers all, they all seem to believe that being able to shoot lots of rounds downrange faster AND more accurately is important, though Rogers discussed other reasons for going to the 9mm.

For those of us gettin' on in years, practicing with a 9mm can be delightful (especially if one's strong arm is riddled with arthritis in the wrist and fingers). On a recent range visit, I re-discovered that my venerable West German SIG P-226 is the softest-shooter of all my nines, as well as the most accurate pistol I own (well, I have one Series 70 Colt's Gov't Model that would probably edge it).

Now I note that my usual off-duty carry .45, a LW Commander XSE, is really about the same size as my P-226 (albeit not nearly as wide) and almost identical in size to my duty M&P-9 ... all have barrels about 4.25 - 4.40 inches but laid one on top of the other, they all print about the same size, except the Colt is obviously narrower, which does make it easier to pack.

With the stellar 18-round Mec-Gar mags for the SIG (and then how 'bout the 20-rounder for a spare?), the factory 17-rounders for the S&W, I can sure pack a lot more firepower by going to a nine, which for me, conceals almost as well, even OWB in a Kramer Belt Scabbard (my favorite pancakes) or a Galco Concealable. Yeah, for IWB, the SIG and the Smith aren't quite as nice, but they still ride remarkably comfortably in Milt Sparks VM-IIs.

So, I am evaluating. I have full confidence in my 9mm loads (Gold Dot 124 grain +Ps), and frankly, my recent shooting sessions have me shooting much more accurately, much faster, with my 9s.

Anyone else besides this 1911 dinosaur contemplating giving up The Man Gun? (But only for carry -- the 1911 is still The King -- just as Elvis, though dead, is.)
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh577/Beau360/DSCN0158.jpg

I understand their logic in the article, especially for a LEO who could potentially encounter multiple armed suspects, but I wonder how many of these people were actually carrying a 1911 off duty? I would guess the greater majority carried a 5 shot J frame, so the 9mm would actually be a step up (in capacity). As always, shot placement is crucial no matter the caliber.;)

LD

FMF Doc
September 15, 2012, 10:26 PM
I sold off all of my guns when I thought I was going to have to move back to NY. I was a little upset when the job fell through and I ended up staying here in NC. The good news was that I had some money to get a new pistol as I still had my NC CHP. I had up to $2500 to spend, but wanted to stay well below that. I could have bought any gun I can find in my town. I looked at a Knighthawk customs GRP, and Springer TRP and a host of others in varying calibers. I bought Glock 19, and have no regrets.

Kendahl
September 15, 2012, 10:52 PM
So far, the debate has between the "man gun", a .45 ACP 1911, and the sensible alternative, a striker-fired 9 mm. How about the other two combinations, a striker-fired .45 or a 9 mm 1911, the latter somewhat smaller than a full sized 1911 because it was designed around the smaller cartridge?

Trent
September 16, 2012, 10:25 AM
You know, growing up around the guns I did, I view "Man Gun" as something quite other than a 1911.

357 Magnum? Man gun.
38 Special? Lady gun.

Kind of how the line was drawn where I was raised. :)

Pfletch83
September 16, 2012, 02:52 PM
My vote goes for this one with the Federal 2-1/2 inch '000' buckshot loads

Structural damage is what counts the most in stopping a threat with a handgun,and 4 projectiles beat one (also most defensive uses of a handgun are at close range so distance isn't so much of a problem)

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd369/Pfletch83/Gov2.jpg

Certaindeaf
September 16, 2012, 03:45 PM
^
Why not just shoot once with a good 9mm? It'll go where you aim it and break bones/penetrate more than four 70 grain balls.

KansasSasquatch
September 16, 2012, 04:22 PM
In self defense I wouldn't trust one round of anything short of 12gauge buckshot at close range.

As far as putting down "the man's gun," I guess I'm not old enough to put down my .45s yet. I do have some arthritis in my hands though. But since I "roll my own" I can make .45 ammo that kicks about like factory 9mm ammo for target practice. And for HD/SD full power loads don't bother me enough to trade in for a 9mm. I do want a BHP or or 92FS for a range toy and maybe an LC9 for pocket carry.

Dave T
September 16, 2012, 05:14 PM
I've been going through a similar quest for the past few months. I have always shot the 45 ACP 1911 guns better than anything else, particularly when pushed to go fast when up close. The recoil doesn't bother my arthritis but reaching the thumb safety and getting the grip safety depressed every time has become a problem. I have a few G19s laying around and they will do in a pinch but I find myself going back to the revolver, where I started 40+ years ago.

Not sure I understand the physiology behind it but on the range I seem to do better with the long DA stroke of the revolver than with the stacking but lighter trigger stroke of the Glock. And, despite having a very nice collection of N-frame S&Ws, I find I shoot the newer L-frame better than the the big N's or even the smaller K-frames.

Not done thinking about this but that seems to be where age (parts failure) and experience is directing me. YMMV!

Dave

Certaindeaf
September 16, 2012, 05:15 PM
In self defense I wouldn't trust one round of anything short of 12gauge buckshot at close range..
Do you hide in the closet where that's kept?

Pfletch83
September 16, 2012, 05:37 PM
@Certaindeaf

You do know that those four 70 grain pellets equal out to a total weight of 280 grains worth of projectile right?

and all four will be clustered at the same POA.

Certaindeaf
September 16, 2012, 05:39 PM
^
yea, that's real special.

Pfletch83
September 16, 2012, 05:48 PM
@Certaindeaf

I would say that the above weapon and load is the closest we can expect to get for a solid one shot threat stopper in a handgun.

k_dawg
September 16, 2012, 05:58 PM
I choose the handgun first, caliber second.

Teachu2
September 16, 2012, 06:22 PM
Carried 1911s for over three decades. Live in CA, so 10 rounds is the practical limit, which diminishes the 9mm capacity advantage. The Glock 30 ended up being my choice - as many rounds of the largest practical caliber, in a soft-shooting, very accurate and dependable package.

If I lived in hi-cap land, I'd probably go with a G19. I thoroughly enjoy range time with my G34, so the 19 would be an obvious choice. Since I only get 10 rounds, and I shoot the 30 very well, that's what I carry.

Taurus 617 CCW
September 16, 2012, 06:33 PM
I started out CCW carrying a government size 1911 in .45 ACP. Through the years I have gradually moved to midsize cartridges mainly due to size and weight of the gun I carry all day long. I now carry a Glock 19 and Ruger LCP. They are a great combination. I would carry a Springfield EMP 9mm if I could afford one.

45_auto
September 16, 2012, 06:33 PM
Structural damage is what counts the most in stopping a threat with a handgun,and 4 projectiles beat one

So why don't you use birdshot?

A couple of hundred projectiles obviously beat 4 using your logic.

Pfletch83
September 16, 2012, 06:37 PM
@45 Auto

Because birdshot causes shallow wounds.

Buckshot has been a defensive load for ages....because it works,and works well.

It beats lugging a shotgun around everywhere I go,and I still have the option of using standard .45's in three different flavors. (Long colt,ACP,and GAP)

:P

KansasSasquatch
September 16, 2012, 09:26 PM
Certaindeaf, my point is that in a self defense situation you probably shouldn't stop with 1 round of .410 buckshot, 9mm, or .45acp. You shoot until the threat stops or until you're forced to take other action. A single round of 12gauge 000 has a good chance of incapcitating an attacker while those others dont. And the answer to your satiracle question is no. The shotgun I keep loaded is nowhere near my closet and when I'm not near the shotgun my XD45 is with me.

Pfletch83
September 16, 2012, 09:34 PM
@KansasSasquatch

I wouldn't stop at one round,what I am saying is, of the three which would cause more damage and thus be more likely to bring a threat to a stop faster ?

My money is on the .410 revolver loaded with buckshot.

hso
September 16, 2012, 09:42 PM
You have to treat each pellet independently for damage. If they all cause shallow damage then they're not going to add up to the effectiveness of a round that penetrates to depth without over penetrating.

I'm not sure what a .410 pellet from Judge provides ballistically on target, but the tests at the Box O' Truth were discouraging. http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_2.htm Reads a lot like shooting a BG 3-5 times with a little .25.

Pfletch83
September 16, 2012, 09:49 PM
@HSO


That test was flawed from the get go,try this out for more info....

*Warning could cause a crash*

http://www.410handguns.com/410_gel_results.html#Fed_01

KansasSasquatch
September 16, 2012, 09:58 PM
Pfletch, I understood what you were saying, although I do not agree. I was responding to Certaindeaf in reference to firing one shot.

I do not agree with the .410 being that much better. Average .410 000 is moving around 850fps. With the relatively low velocity and light weight of each individual pellet, it is not likely to penetrate very deep and it's not going to expand very well, in theory any ways. But enough hits on a Bad Guy and I think it would do okay.

Lawdawg45
September 17, 2012, 10:27 AM
@KansasSasquatch

I wouldn't stop at one round,what I am saying is, of the three which would cause more damage and thus be more likely to bring a threat to a stop faster ?

My money is on the .410 revolver loaded with buckshot.

To each his own, but really do your research before staking your life on the .410. The new gimmick ammo with the "defensive disk" tumbles and yaws past the 3 or 4 foot mark, and the shot pattern for the bird shot is terrible. Even worse out of the Judge or Governor.:uhoh:

LD

Pfletch83
September 17, 2012, 10:43 AM
I have been doing research with the .410 for well over a year now (In long gun and I have began working with the handgun)

That is how I have seen it's strengths and it's weaknesses.

And all things being equal,it's why I'm glad I made the choice,I'm not saying that others have to make the same choice.

But if a person is looking for a one shot fight stopper at normal defensive use ranges in a handgun then a 410 revolver loaded with '000' buck is a very good bet.


Also I wouldn't risk using the PDX-1 410 in a handgun (recoil is way too stout and down range performance is not what I would write home about)

Which is why I've stayed with the '000' buck load from federal.

Better recoil control and firepower at close range.


Also here is a vid some might want to look at....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_iJ34EHuQs

Lawdawg45
September 17, 2012, 10:58 AM
I have been doing research with the .410 for well over a year now (In long gun and I have began working with the handgun)

That is how I have seen it's strengths and it's weaknesses.

And all things being equal,it's why I'm glad I made the choice,I'm not saying that others have to make the same choice.

But if a person is looking for a one shot fight stopper at normal defensive use ranges in a handgun then a 410 revolver loaded with '000' buck is a very good bet.


Also I wouldn't risk using the PDX-1 410 in a handgun (recoil is way too stout and down range performance is not what I would write home about)

Which is why I've stayed with the '000' buck load from federal.

Better recoil control and firepower at close range.


Also here is a vid some might want to look at....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_iJ34EHuQs
Impressive video! Why so much better shot pattern with the Governor vs the Judge, same barrel length right?

LD

Pfletch83
September 17, 2012, 10:59 AM
Also it should be noted that the target in the pic that I posted was made by tracing out an old blank CD.

CountryUgly
September 17, 2012, 11:06 AM
I comprimised! I now carry a G20 :) . No one will ever question it's Manliness being a 10mm and being able to easily carry 31 rounds keeps me in the fight against the guy who's carrying an M&P or G19. The G20 Also soaks up the recoil for even the hottest rounds and makes accurate follow up shots very managable. So did I win?

Pfletch83
September 17, 2012, 11:14 AM
Depending on which model Judge you are talking about and the type of loads used.

If you are talking 3-inch chambered 3-inch barrel model using off the shelf winchester buckshot (Unplated plain lead 3-inch or 2-1/2 inch shell) or the newer stuff (Federal 3-inch/2-1/2 inch plated '000')

As far as shorter barrel vs longer barrel,I'm thinking is has to do with rifling type of the barrel,how the pellets engage the rifling as well as the type of powder used in the shells (and I believe the Federal stuff is using the flight control wad if memory serves)

beatledog7
September 17, 2012, 12:26 PM
There is far more manliness (or womanliness) in accepting the responsibility of carrying than there will ever be in how many of which round one chooses to carry.

bikerdoc
September 18, 2012, 07:46 PM
There is far more manliness (or womanliness) in accepting the responsibility of carrying than there will ever be in how many of which round one chooses to carry.
___

Thatis the most insightful statement made on this forum in a long time.

EddieNFL
September 18, 2012, 08:20 PM
Seasoned trainers all, they all seem to believe that being able to shoot lots of rounds downrange faster AND more accurately is important...

Odd they would stick with a platform they couldn't shoot as accurately as whatever they ultimately chose.

silversport
September 18, 2012, 08:36 PM
Thatis the most insightful statement made on this forum in a long time.
Agreed...pithy

Bill

Rexster
September 18, 2012, 09:44 PM
I do understand the arthritis part, though it is the snappy .40 S&W that is causing me pain, as .45 ACP, at least in an all-steel 1911, is still mild enough. When it looked like my chief was about to authorize 9mm as an alternate duty pistol load, in the 9mm counterparts to our currently-approved .40 duty pistols, I bought myself a G17. (I currently use a SIG P229 .40 as a duty pistol; Glocks and S&W M&P are the other choices.)

Well, when the chief signed the recent changes to the firearms policy, the 9mm proposal was not part of it. I will try to make my feelings known, through proper channels, that I would like to see it revived. Meanwhile, a softer-recoiling .40 might be an option, though I am trying not to spend too much money on duty-related firearms this late in my career.

Fortunately, I can carry what I want on my own time. For years, I thought it wise to carry the same weapon platform on and off the clock, but getting older changes some things. Thankfully, shooting a 1911 came back to me immediately, after a decade. I am so glad I kept my Baer TRS!

481
September 21, 2012, 12:32 AM
Good thread.

Too much is made of caliber. It is more important that you have a gun.

rxspeed88
September 21, 2012, 03:22 PM
These threads kill me.... It never ends. It always comes down to the "which is better" theme. I own 9 and .45. I prefer .45 but i carry a glock 29 and a glock 21 is my car gun. A beretta inox 92fs is my couch gun and a springer .45 is the bedroom gun. I cant understand why these get brought up so often. Carry what you shoot and feel the best with. I personally dont want to be shot with anything. If someone is trying to do harm to my family or myself, im shooting to stop. A 9 or 45 will take care of that. As will a boat load of other calibers.

since im at it........ .45>9mm

p.s. The "best" gun is the one in your hand when you need it.

Old Dog
September 21, 2012, 03:25 PM
Thank you, previous poster, for proving once again that most of you never read through the original post and try to actually understand what the OP is talking about.

It's not about which is better. It's about a personal choice, due to personal physical characteristics, occupation, lifestyle, but mostly about WHAT YOU SHOOT BETTER.

I simply asked if anyone else had made a change from one to the other, and why. Sheesh.

Sorry if these threads kill you. Perhaps you should make a better effort to comprehend what you read?

rxspeed88
September 21, 2012, 03:34 PM
my point is: No matter how you word it, it always turns into this sort of thing. Person a says they switched to 9 from .45. Person b says they switched .45 to 9. Person c says that both calibers are inferior to to .357 and the debate continues.

Old Dog
September 21, 2012, 03:44 PM
I wasn't aware this was a "debate." However, I well understand the mentality of many folks that haven't been shooters their whole lives don't understand the concept of one's weapon choices evolving, and believing that everything discussed on the internet must be an argument or debate.

Some of us are actually interested in other's experiences rather than simply trying to score style points with pithy retorts or trying to re-frame a thread topic away from the OP's intent.

rxspeed88
September 21, 2012, 04:21 PM
Im sorry sir, i wasnt aware that i offended you. My intent was not to "debate" with you, my statement wasnt even directed to you or anyone specific. I was making the statement that no matter how you discuss it, label it, conceal it, threads of this sort, will always end up being a contest between calibers and their experiences in why.

Your pithy retort scored about 6 style points, if you were wondering. Have a good day sir!

Fiv3r
September 21, 2012, 05:17 PM
I love the look of a big ol' .45. There is just something iconic about the business end of that cavernous hole promising 230gr of nearly 1/2" across jacketed lead.

...But I carry a 9mm:scrutiny:

I just shoot the 9mm better. It's controllable, affordable to practice with, and gives me a good compromise of capacity to energy put into the target. My current daily carry is a Pocket Glock G26. The most unmanly gun in the state-side Glock line-up. It's the Glock prop guys give the tough chick detective on cop shows because it "looks like a gun a girl would shoot". It's petite, almost cute in the slide to grip junction the way kids are with their nearly adult sized facial features and their tiny bodies.

But it offers me a lightweight 10+1 pistol that is nearly invisible on my hip that will tear a ragged hole point-shooting. I really like my big ol' .45s. And YES, if the gates are being stormed, the G21 comes out to play with the AR, 12 gauge, and a bazooka if I can find one. However, day to day carry, I simply shoot and pack a 9mm better.

buck460XVR
September 21, 2012, 05:26 PM
..

Seasoned trainers all, they all seem to believe that being able to shoot lots of rounds downrange faster AND more accurately is important,

I am one that feels for the average civilian carrying for SD, that the abilty to put large amounts of ammo downrange in a short amount of time is over-rated. For LEOs, military and folks that make a living protecting property or people and that have a good chance of engaging in a drawn out gun-fight it's a different story. Having a 5-shot j-Frame for SD/HD for years, a 7 round mag in my 1911 IS hi-capacity!:D




.
(But only for carry -- the 1911 is still The King -- just as Elvis, though dead, is.)



Elvis is not dead, he has just left the building.

beatledog7
September 21, 2012, 06:12 PM
The biggest round I have ever carried is .40S&W, and the most rounds is 15. I have to admit, that felt like overkill. My usual carry is 5 rounds of .38SPL, and I never feel undergunned.

If we could get a CCW permit into the hands of 10% of the adult population, and if just half of them would actually carry regularly, then it really wouldn't matter what round anyone carried. Bad guys would know they face a 1/20 chance that the person they select for violence is armed (except BGs in Illinois and in certain major US cities), and most would think twice given those odds.

Not one of those BGs is going to say he'll only assault people who carry a .380 or smaller.

David E
September 21, 2012, 08:56 PM
For LEOs, military and folks that make a living protecting property or people and that have a good chance of engaging in a drawn out gun-fight it's a different story.


Except that cops have partners, immediate back-up, multiple reloads and various guns to carry them thru the confrontation, not to mention a SWAT team and sniper available.

The "average citizen" has none of that.

RinkRat
September 24, 2012, 01:41 AM
45acp down to a 9mm?? :scrutiny:

I'll give up my 10mm g20 only when you''ll have to pry it from my cold dead hands :neener:

PaisteMage
December 18, 2012, 07:15 PM
Well, I don't have any issues with my hands, yet.

I carry a 9mm. I have considered getting a XDS .45 but feel I am accurate enough with my 9mm, and don't NEED another carry gun.

I can shoot my 9mm more accurate than my friends 1911. It is a Kahr CW9, and I am dead nuts accurate with it.

The fact that it is causing you PAIN, is definately a concern, and being responsible enough to make a change is very much a good choice of self interest in the long run.

I don't own a .44 Alaskan because I feel it would be uncomfortable to shoot, for many reasons.

Queen_of_Thunder
December 19, 2012, 12:30 AM
Don't worry y'all. You menfolk can put down your .45's for a while. Let the women happily pick up the slack! :neener:
Yep we women can step in for you guys.
Of course this granny's gun is a S&W Model 58 but for special circumstances there is the model 610 or 29-3 with an 8 3/8 barrel.

1911 guy
December 19, 2012, 12:33 AM
20 years ago, I would have shouted from the rooftops to avoid carrying a 9mm. However, bullet design and performance has come so far as to make it not only adequate, but a downright solid performer. My advice would be to select a platform, then a caliber. If it happens to be a 9mm, stoke it with known good ammo and carry on. If you have to switch to a 9mm due to arthritis or such, don't feel undergunned with a 9mm.

Checkman
December 19, 2012, 02:21 AM
Well said 1911 guy. A few weeks ago one of my fellow officers had to shoot a vicious Pit Bull five times with his 9mm before it was stopped, but he only fired five rounds and hit it everytime. It was stopped. Of course the officers who carry 45's crowed that with a 45 he would have had to only fire once or twice.

They missed the point. He like 9mm, he's a good shot with it, he hit what he was aiming at and the bullets did what they were designed to do. Yes it took five bullets but then he has more bullets doesn't he.

SFsc616171
December 19, 2012, 02:47 PM
I love it when the young snots preach to The Old Guard, that what they use to do the job, is no longer applicable.

Tell a military veteran who served prior to the Gulf War, that a 1911, or a SW model 10/15, has no validity, and clear the room.

fastbolt
December 19, 2012, 04:48 PM
Didn't we hear that the FBI is going to go back to the 9x19? don't know if it's true or not
That agency has continued to issue 9mm weapons to a relatively small number of agents. Disparate impact issue. (Meaning some agents might require a smaller grip frame and/or a lesser recoiling duty weapon.)

As I recall, their last pistol ammunition contract included some 147gr 9mm ammunition (presumably for this very reason).

AFDavis11
December 19, 2012, 07:56 PM
9mm is nice, but I don't think about being able to put more rounds down range because of it.

popbang
December 19, 2012, 09:21 PM
I have a lot of problems with hands and especially my left arm. I can not shoot most semi autos without stove piping rounds with my left hand. The nerve damage and muscle damage prevent me from holding the gun properly with my left hand. I don't have the abiltiy to pull a double action trigger with this hand either. I can and do carry a Ruger Vaquero or Blackhawk in 45 Colt, but to come back to the question asked my last purchase was a Blackhawk convertable in 357/9mm. This was because I believe recoil may become a factor for me in a few years and the 9mm makes sense.

MikeNice
December 21, 2012, 12:00 PM
actually...from what I've followed lately...the 9mm seems to be making a huge resurgence in Law Enforcement circles...

Bill
I know that the department I work for switched back to 9mm. A few others are discussing it because of budget issues. The difference in ammo price between .40S&W and 9mm can pay for more frequent tactical training. That is where the main difference is going to come from. The guys that train most often seem to fair better in real world encounters. IT becomes muscle memory.

DasFriek
March 10, 2013, 08:31 PM
I just went today to buy an EDC for CCW carry and it was tough picking: Gun size VS caliber VS capacity VS gun platform.

Ive always been a .45 and a 1911 platform guy, But that dont define me. I passed up a 3" Kimber today due to it high issue rate and instead got an XDs .45 instead at $519 VS $800+ for the Kimber.
My next choice was a G29 or SR9c but neither was in stock anyhow.

This is how i ranked my "Needs" for this CCW weapon.
1. Size
2. Caliber
3. Capacity

kgpcr
March 11, 2013, 12:47 AM
I like my .40. Shoots a bigger bullet at higher speeds than a 9 and has the same number in the mag. Whats not to like?

Bobson
March 11, 2013, 01:31 AM
I like my .40. Shoots a bigger bullet at higher speeds than a 9 and has the same number in the mag. Whats not to like?
Which gun is that?

David E
March 11, 2013, 02:22 AM
Which gun is that?

I'm curious which load, too.

hammerclaw56
March 11, 2013, 07:02 PM
I carry a glock 21 gen 4 and fear no two legged creature:

wkuban
March 11, 2013, 11:12 PM
I carry a 642 or an LC9. Both are more uncomfortable to shoot than a 1911. I find the 1911 to large and too heavy. I like the 642 best for carry. I shoot a little better with the LC. I carry for self defense not looking for a fire fight.

MrCleanOK
March 12, 2013, 07:02 AM
Old Dog,

When I bought my first pistol, I subscribed to the "bigger is better" doctrine, and bought a Springfield XD45C. It has been a good gun, and I feel I have gotten more than my money's worth out of it. When I wanted a full-sized range/house gun, I bought an XD45 5". I liked the idea of caliber and parts commonality with my other pistol.

In the years since, I have taken two all-expenses-paid vacations to other parts of the world, and carried an M9 on both of them. I bought my own Beretta 92FS for training on my own time, and I can say that I shoot 9mm better than .45 ACP. I am accurate with both calibers, but I can be accurate faster with 9mm, I get more ammo in the magazine, and it costs less to train with.

When I get home from this current vacation, I believe I'll be trying to sell both .45's, and replacing them with one M&P 9mm with the right bells and whistles to correct their accuracy shortcomings.

So yes, I haven't put down my "man guns" just yet, but I am planning to.

PabloJ
March 12, 2013, 02:22 PM
I carry a glock 21 gen 4 and fear no two legged creature:
Great choice and impossible to beat. Marine Commandos should have gotten these instead of stupid 1911s with rails.

Ankeny
March 12, 2013, 02:38 PM
Several years ago I stopped carrying a 1911 in .45 ACP and went to a Glock 19/26 combo. Just had to get the high capacity (perceived) need filled. I recently went back to 1911's. I just shoot them better and I like the 1911 more.

My two primary carry guns are a Valor in .45 ACP or a Colt Lightweight Commander in .38 Super Comp. I do have an M&P Shield 9mm for the hot months.

PabloJ
March 12, 2013, 03:06 PM
Several years ago I stopped carrying a 1911 in .45 ACP and went to a Glock 19/26 combo. Just had to get the high capacity (perceived) need filled. I recently went back to 1911's. I just shoot them better and I like the 1911 more.

My two primary carry guns are a Valor in .45 ACP or a Colt Lightweight Commander in .38 Super Comp. I do have an M&P Shield 9mm for the hot months.
G30 which is very similar in size to G19 carries standard magazine that can hold 10 cartridges. There is no need to give up the 'ManGun'. Incidentally standard magazine of G26 holds 10. Heck w/o using Google, Yahoo, Bing,... I do not know who Patrick Rogers or Chris Costa are.

doc2rn
March 12, 2013, 09:43 PM
That is precisely why my only semi-auto is an FNP-9, its easy on these old bones. Been saying it for years. I often wonder what would happen I found a BHP.

psyopspec
March 12, 2013, 10:28 PM
G30 which is very similar in size to G19 carries standard magazine that can hold 10 cartridges.

The Glock 19's 50% increase in rounds on deck is a good case in point. Similar dimensions, and both are handguns that suck for SD as much as all other handguns. Beyond that we split the hairs that get to what's ultimately a personal choice.

I know the names dropped here aren't familiar to you, but I've had the chance to check out the Costa/Haley DVD of the Magpul course they used to run together and it's very good stuff. Combine that with their backgrounds and experience, and when they talk, I listen. May not agree with all of it, but any opinions they give tend to be well-thought and well-formed.

MagnumDweeb
March 13, 2013, 12:52 AM
I carry concealed and prefer revolvers over semis so I go with a .357 magnum loaded snub nose revolver (Remington 125 grain SJHP). My other conceal carry is a Glock 23 and is taken when wardrobe allows. When I'm in street dress that allows a casual jacket I shoulder holster my Ruger P345 and pocket carry the snub nose .357 magnum.

Now can I shoot my Ruger SR9 better than my P345 at 20 yards, and faster? Yes but I'm not Rambo or the Lone Ranger. Any chance of me being in a confrontation will likely mean at arms length and I want the biggest baddest bullet I can get. And just in case there were an Aurora scenario. Again I can hit 11x8" targets at twenty yards with both guns.

So if you are a cop and it's a difference in capacity, then yeah I can see it. If you can shoot it better and cheaper, then I can see it. But for me, I'll keep mine. Good luck and stay safe.

Panzercat
March 13, 2013, 01:59 AM
Caliber is a hedge against sub optimal accuracy and penetration.

If you can dispense large quantities of head shots under stressful and dynamic situations using 9mm or smaller, awesomesauce! You win. But I can't help but to look at this thread while remembering the reason why law enforcement moved away from the 9mm... and that reason wasn't because everybody was dispensing large volumes of hyper accurate com fire with stunning effectiveness.

Just an observation, not a referendum on anybody's skill.

bikerbill
March 13, 2013, 10:24 AM
Interesting discussion ... I've had my CHL for almost 10 years, and my EDC has always been a Kahr PM9 .. I love it for its light weight, the fact it has never failed since I took it out of the box and that I shoot it very well ... but .. just picked up an XDs in .45ACP. I don't have enough rounds through it to make the transition, but when I do, I will be carrying it at least some of the time ... I prefer the bigger round for SD if I can have it in a gun that's small enough for me to carry every day without discomfort ... I'm 5-10 and 155, so not a lot of bulk to hide a big gun ...

easyg
March 13, 2013, 12:50 PM
I have recently moved away from the 9mm in favor of what I believe is a more effective round (all other things being equal)...the .357 magnum.

I went from carrying my Ruger SR9c to carrying my Ruger GP100.
I know, it's a huge change...compact autoloader to full-sized revolver.
But I have more confidence in the revolver and the .357 magnum caliber.

SabbathWolf
March 13, 2013, 08:41 PM
"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill"


;)



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/HK-07_zps554a262c.jpg

golden
March 14, 2013, 04:00 AM
A couple of years ago, I decided to just use the 9m.m. for my defense guns. I have had many 1911's over the years and am familiar with them. I was also issued and still am issued a .40 S&W pistol.

The .45ACP does not offer any advantages to me over the 9m.m. and the .40 S&W only appeals when I am using high performance ammo, like the full power
155 and 165 grain hollow points. When I shoot this load, it is in a large gun like the BERETTA 96. On the other hand, this is a big and not very light gun, so it works well as a duty belt gun or house gun, but gets old when carried on my hip for 10 or 12 hours.

For my own use, I am going to stick with the 9m.m. If only hits count, then getting the most hits in the least amount of time is my goal. The 9m.m. has a shorter recovery time between shots and is the least tiring to shoot.
Even here, I draw the line at a gun that is no lighter than the GLOCK 19 and with a grip of similar size. Below this weight and grip size combination, I find that my shooting is slower and less accurate.

If I need a smaller size pistol, then I will use a .380ACP then!

Jim

David E
March 14, 2013, 11:42 AM
If only hits count, then getting the most hits in the least amount of time is my goal. The 9m.m. (SP) has a shorter recovery time between shots

Proper technique allows one to shoot .40 and .45 ACP virtually as fast and as accurate as the 9mm, presuming full size guns for all 3.

and is the least tiring to shoot.

Seriously?

Penoe Hunter
March 14, 2013, 06:15 PM
I can not see going back to 9mm s, there have been to many documented incident where multiple shots from a 9mm did not get the job done: the Miami FBI shoot out in the 90's a Ill. state trooper shooting a motorist 17 times and getting shot himself and in my personal experience a drug dealer got shot 23 times by two 9mms, shot both of his assailants and survived.

My department switched from S&W revolvers to Glock 17 and 19s I kept my wheelgun The regs changed I now carry a Glock 21 I don't like Glocks but I do like 45s

golden
March 14, 2013, 06:22 PM
YES, DAVID E,

I was serious on both counts. I have been doing this for a while and what I used to do without much effort is now, work.

I shot a .45ACP exclusively, for many years. In a 38 ounce, metal gun, a .45ACP or high velocity .40 S&W is no worse than a 9m.m., but I do not want to carry a 38 ounce, 8 1/2 inch gun with me!

Try carrying it for 8 or 10 or 12 or more hours. It gets old. I ended up wearing a GLOCK 19 for a number of years and when I compared the recovery time of a GLOCK 19 with side by side of a GLOCK 21, it was obvious which gun was slower to recover, the .45 ACP GLOCK 21. This may not be a problem for you, but you are not me.

I am also planning for the future, by shooting a SIG 225, frequently. It is heavy enough, with a grip that is PERFECTLY SIZED to my hand, that recoil is a non-issue and gun weight is stilll way below that of the 1911 size guns.

Jim

David E
March 14, 2013, 08:34 PM
Try carrying it for 8 or 10 or 12 or more hours.

Ive fired 100's of 9mm's, .40's and .45's in a relatively short time and never felt tired out by the caliber. Granted, I was using full size guns. Ultra compacts or lightweights might've been a different story.

I've only been shooting centerfire guns for 37 years, so maybe I'm not old enough to have acquired debilitating conditions that will impact my shooting tolerance. May it ever be so! I've carried all steel 1911's all day for quite some time. I didn't really mind it, but lighter, smaller guns are easier to carry.

when I compared the recovery time of a GLOCK 19 with side by side of a GLOCK 21, it was obvious which gun was slower to recover, the .45 ACP GLOCK 21. This may not be a problem for you, but you are not me.

I'm curious how you timed this, but more curious about your technique. Nearly anyone in good health can use the technique I refer to (Modern Isosceles) with great results, so I'm not saying only _I_ can do it.

I am also planning for the future, by shooting a SIG 225, frequently. It is heavy enough, with a grip that is PERFECTLY SIZED to my hand, that recoil is a non-issue and gun weight is stilll way below that of the 1911 size guns.

Jim

Good gun. I'm glad you've found one that works for you.

jim243
March 15, 2013, 03:10 AM
To answer your question, yes I have in the past and changed and changed and changed again. For 20 years I used a Browning High Power, the main reason was the 13 round mag. So you could say I am very acquanted with the 9 mm. I have never been comfortable with the stopping power of 115 grain 9mm round, but felt that 3 or 4 rounds could be used to good advantage. 8 years ago I changed over to the 45 ACP (man gun) and tried that for a couple of years, even went out a bought a Kimber Eclipse Pro II which I loved and shot the best with. But after trying to carry a solid stainess steel pistol around all the time, the weight was just too much to be comfortable.

One of the problems with the 45 is the round count in the magazine, so to the store and a FNH FNP-40 was purchased, 14 +1 rounds in a poly framed stainless slide pistol. WELL, the 40 S&W is the worst of both worlds. Snappy recoil and a faster bullet to miss with, or at least not as accurate to hit with. (5 inch groups at 25 feet).

So now I decided to get an old favorite a CZ 75 P-01 good round count (14+1), fast recovery times, 124 grain 9mm +P, fantastic pistol grip, super reliable and easy to carry. (smaller size)

So now I should be happy, right? Well no, there is real world and what we think as real world. A) I am not a gun slinger and don't look for trouble. B) A 9mm on a druged up attacker will take 5 or more hits just to slow them down. C) I don't want to slow anyone down, just put them down to save my life or that of my family. D) faster is not better, more of the same is not better if it can't stop your problem.

What does work however is the 100 year old 45 ACP with a 230 grain hollow point bullet, maybe I will need two of them, but that's a lot better than standing there as a target unloading 5 or more 9mm rounds. So I am back to a 3.6 inch compact 45 ACP.

That's just my take on it. (stick to the 45 ACP)
Jim

SabbathWolf
March 15, 2013, 03:16 AM
To answer your question, yes I have in the past and changed and changed and changed again. For 20 years I used a Browning High Power, the main reason was the 13 round mag. So you could say I am very acquanted with the 9 mm. I have never been comfortable with the stopping power of 115 grain 9mm round, but felt that 3 or 4 rounds could be used to good advantage. 8 years ago I changed over to the 45 ACP (man gun) and tried that for a couple of years, even went out a bought a Kimber Eclipse Pro II which I loved and shot the best with. But after trying to carry a solid stainess steel pistol around all the time, the weight was just too much to be comfortable.

One of the problems with the 45 is the round count in the magazine, so to the store and a FNH FNP-40 was purchased, 14 +1 rounds in a poly framed stainless slide pistol. WELL, the 40 S&W is the worst of both worlds. Snappy recoil and a faster bullet to miss with, or at least not as accurate to hit with. (5 inch groups at 25 feet).

So now I decided to get an old favorite a CZ 75 P-01 good round count (14+1), fast recovery times, 124 grain 9mm +P, fantastic pistol grip, super reliable and easy to carry. (smaller size)

So now I should be happy, right? Well no, there is real world and what we think as real world. A) I am not a gun slinger and don't look for trouble. B) A 9mm on a druged up attacker will take 5 or more hits just to slow them down. C) I don't want to slow anyone down, just put them down to save my life or that of my family. D) faster is not better, more of the same is not better if it can't stop your problem.

What does work however is the 100 year old 45 ACP with a 230 grain hollow point bullet, maybe I will need two of them, but that's a lot better than standing there as a target unloading 5 or more 9mm rounds.

That's just my take on it. (stick to the 45 ACP)
Jim
5" groups @ 25 "FEET?"
WOW!
That's horrible!!!!!!!
5" groups @ 25 yards is more than bad enough!

jim243
March 15, 2013, 03:23 AM
5" groups @ 25 "FEET?"
WOW!
That's horrible!!!!!!!
5" groups @ 25 yards is more than bad enough!


Why do you think I sold both of my 40 S&W guns? (LOL)

And may I suggest that if you want to shoot at 25 yards or better, get a rifle.

I did, in 40 S&W a Hi Point 4095, I had all this ammo laying around ( I reload).

Jim

SabbathWolf
March 15, 2013, 04:01 AM
5" groups @ 25 "FEET?"
WOW!
That's horrible!!!!!!!
5" groups @ 25 yards is more than bad enough!


Why do you think I sold both of my 40 S&W guns? (LOL)

And may I suggest that if you want to shoot at 25 yards or better, get a rifle.

I did, in 40 S&W a Hi Point 4095, I had all this ammo laying around ( I reload).

Jim
I got used to qualifying @ 25 meters with handguns, so that's the distance I generally use to judge accuracy by when shooting groups.
I do own a rifle or two as well.....lol

buck460XVR
March 15, 2013, 02:03 PM
I don't need a Patrick Rogers or a Chris Costa to tell me what firearm/caliber I should use for SD/HD. I'll use what I'm proficient with and comfortable with. I'll let them do the same.

psyopspec
March 15, 2013, 03:34 PM
I don't need a Patrick Rogers or a Chris Costa to tell me what firearm/caliber I should use for SD/HD.

I don't believe either of them even attempted to do that, so you not wanting to be told works out well for everyone. Check the OP again; Costa "admitted" to carrying a 9mm. That's a far cry from trying to tell anyone the way it has to be for their SD, and the opposite end of the spectrum where this thread is trying to find a middle ground in discussing a concept.

golden
March 15, 2013, 03:55 PM
DAVID E,

Don't forget the other items when you carry an all steel 1911. I have to carry extra ammo, the handcuffs, the baton and the other equipment. Maybe you do not, it gets tiring to me.


Also, as to what method I shoot, it is the same isoceles that I was taught to use at the academy. It cannot be used for one handed shooting which I am required to do or for barricade shooting, as it moves me to far from the side wall that I have to shoot from.

I have found that recoil, whether it effects you or not, it does effect me. When I shoot my SIG 225 or 232 for 150 rounds, it is not tiring. When I shoot other guns, it is.
I have even found the .32ACP to be work when shooting a really small gun like the NAA Guardian. On the other hand, a slightly larger and heavier gun like the BERETTA Tomcat, shooting the same ammo is fine.
Shooting the BERETTA 82 in .32ACP (same gun as the BERETTA 85 Chettah is nearly recoil free for me.

So as far as I am concerned, felt recoil has a tolerance level before it becomes punishing and degrades my shooting. The .45ACP and .40 S&W reach that level long before a 9m.m. does for me.

Interestingly, I shot a heavy (40 ounce) 9m.m. pistol last week and it was not nearly as comfortable to shoot as my BERETTA 92, SIG 225 or WALTHER P99. It was much heavier than any of them and had a 15 round magazine, so the grip was long and wide.

Jim

David E
March 15, 2013, 05:18 PM
DAVID E,

Don't forget the other items when you carry an all steel 1911. I have to carry extra ammo, the handcuffs, the baton and the other equipment. Maybe you do not, it gets tiring to me.

When I was a cop, I carried a S&W 645, four reloads, two pairs of cuffs, an SL-20, Orcutt nunchuks and a radio in addition to the Kevlar vest. Off duty, I just carried the 645, two reloads and a Spyderco.

Also, as to what method I shoot, it is the same isoceles that I was taught to use at the academy.

I highly doubt it was the modern isosceles, which is light years ahead of the old PPC style isosceles taught by most academies.

All that said, one of my most fun centerfire handguns to shoot is a Colt Govt in 9x23 I won that I've fitted a Kart 9mm barrel to. Might need to break out my Hi Power, tho.

Autolycus
March 16, 2013, 04:36 AM
I prefer 9mm as it is more cost effective and I can carry a lot more ammo. I don't consider myself less manly or anything like that nor do I worry about it. I feel comfortable with 9mm and like the way it handles in my Glocks. Though I have been considering getting a .40 S&W as I have been able to find it in stock at the local shops which have been out of 9mm. If I do it will most likely be in an M&P or a Glock.

Either way the .45 ACP is a good round, it is just not for me. I prefer more ammo and feel that my 9mm is fine.

Jeff Cook
March 16, 2013, 12:13 PM
we can argue caliber all day however in my personal experience shot placement is the most important aspect, not caliber. I was forced to defend myself against a knife weilding jerkoff and my three shots from a glock .40 to the upper hydraulics ended the encounter. It's simple.....take away the ability to pump oxygenated blood to the body through massive blood loss. Outside of a critical CNS (head or spinal cloumn) hit that is the only way to stop a fight permanently. As unfortunate as the incidnet was....it certainly made the point of shot placement.

charlie fox
March 16, 2013, 12:27 PM
When I started carrying a gun for myself I reasoned that, since I didn't have backup or a radio, that more rounds made sense. Also, I could shoot the 9mm faster and more accurately than a larger caliber, so I chose the Glock 19. And since I have five grown children my manhood has remained firmly intact:)

Jaymo
March 16, 2013, 05:09 PM
Charlie Fox, do you ever write articles for Backwoodsman magazine?
I could swear one of the authors has that name.

I like 9mm well enough, and carry one often.
I prefer .44 or .45 caliber, and carry them, too.
Shot placement is the most important thing, as long as you have a round with enough penetration to reliably do the job.
However, with equal shot placement and penetration, the projectile that makes the largest hole is better, due to more tissue destruction and blood loss.
Unfortunately, I can't fit a Mossberg 590 into a CC holster. :D
You can't count on expansion, but you can count on a large diameter projectile never shrinking.
The main reason I bought an SR9 is because the SR45 didn't exist at the time.
Now that it does, I can't find one in the stores.
Not that I'm going to get rid of my SR9. It's easy to shoot and carry, and I just like it.

Honestly, I don't trust ANY pistol round to be an instantaneous fight stopper.
I do trust my .44 Spls, .45s, and .357s to do it more reliably than my 9s.

However, a man's got to know his limitations. We should all carry what we can carry and shoot comfortably, accurately, reliably.

Since Ruger doesn't make an SR12, I'll hang on to my SR9.

Funny, all the talk of .45 having such recoil. I've never noticed objectionable recoil from any .45 ACP auto or revolver.
I prefer the .45s recoil to that of the .40.
Of course, the SR9 is a very soft shooting pistol, but none of my .45s recoil enough to keep me from making accurate shots.

Drail
March 16, 2013, 09:01 PM
"mangun?" "objectionable recoil?" HAH? If anyone wants to carry a little Euro**** 9mm "girlyman gun" I say go for it. I'll stick with my big heavy slow .41/.44/.45 bullets. I have seen 9mms fail to do the job. More than once. All seriousness aside, a 9mm is fine if you have a double stack magazine. And if you need a double stack magazine you must plan on missing a lot. (that's a joke, don't take anything I say seriously)

bobmilekjr
March 17, 2013, 01:30 PM
I think it all boils down to what you are comfortable with, and shoot best. The least important to me is the quantity that can be put down range. It is a consideration for law enforcement, etc, but that doesn't include me. Probably the best reply i've heard for the average citizen came from a former writer (won't include his name because he can't defend himself now) who was retired from the border patrol. His entire career was spent with revolvers, and he was a driving force in developing a couple cartridges. When asked about the lack of rounds from a revolver, he replied that if he couldn't get out of a situation with 6 rounds, he was in a situation he should have been aware enough to avoid.

David E
March 17, 2013, 02:27 PM
I think it all boils down to what you are comfortable with, and shoot best. The least important to me is the quantity that can be put down range.

Following this advice, someone could choose a single shot TC Encore in .22 short because: they "feel" comfortable with it, can shoot it best and aren't concerned about the number of rounds that can be put downrange.

But it's still an ill-considered choice.

The gun chosen should possess, after reliabilty, a reasonably powered cartridge, capacity and size. Different people draw the line for each element at different places, but a little common sense goes a long way.

Let me suggest 3 shooting standards that would define the threshold of "good enough" to carry a given gun or caliber. (special note, these are not "gun fighting" standards, nor are they "gun fighting" training. These are drills most folks can do at the range to see if you and your gun choice can pass a bare minimum acceptable standard )

1) 5 shots, 5 yds, 5" plate, 5 seconds. This is a standard of sorts I've seen various places on the Internet to define the threshold. I think the time frame is overly generous, so I've added a concealment draw to the drill. Carry your gun in your normal way, hands at sides. At signal, draw and fire 5 shots on target in 5 seconds, 5 times in a row.

B) 5 yds, IPSC target, "C" zone or better, excluding head. Hands at sides, gun holstered and concealed, as is spare reload. At signal, draw and fire 4, reload, fire 4 more. Max time allowed is 10 seconds. Add 2 seconds for revolvers. Repeat 4 more times.

3) 5 yds, IPSC target, "C" zone or better excluding head. Gun holstered and concealed. At signal, draw and fire 2 shots in 3 seconds or less. Repeat 4 more times.

I emphasize these are bare minimum standards, nothing more. But they serve to establish a baseline to meet with a given carrygun. If you can't meet any of them, consider a different gun or caliber, as well as more practice.

Some introduce a 4th element that they place above the rest: convenience. If they can meet the suggested minimum standards with their "convenient" gun, then fine.

FireInCairo
March 18, 2013, 10:47 AM
Sounds like some sage advice for those who've competed for 20 years, but not for someone who shoot recreationally and for personal protection.

David E
March 18, 2013, 11:40 AM
Sounds like some sage advice for those who've competed for 20 years, but not for someone who shoot recreationally and for personal protection.

Interesting. So you're saying that people who shoot competition will be required to have greater skill in a gunfight than someone who simply carries a gun for defense. :scrutiny:

The drills suggested are intended to define a basic threshold of skill, regardless of shooter background.

If you want to argue the second drill is irrelevant because it includes a reload, fine, but a reload may come in handy in a gunfight, so I included the drill.

Maybe you don't agree ANY skill level should be a goal to achieve. Maybe you think that shooting for blood successfully is as easy as falling off a log, which, given the right circumstance, it well could be...but probably not.

What drill(s), if any, would you suggest?

My view is that the badguy won't care if you shoot or don't shoot competition. He will only care if you're able to make good hits in a relatively short time, much to his distress.

FireInCairo
March 19, 2013, 01:01 AM
Interesting. So you're saying that people who shoot competition will be required to have greater skill in a gunfight than someone who simply carries a gun for defense. :scrutiny:

The drills suggested are intended to define a basic threshold of skill, regardless of shooter background.

If you want to argue the second drill is irrelevant because it includes a reload, fine, but a reload may come in handy in a gunfight, so I included the drill.

Maybe you don't agree ANY skill level should be a goal to achieve. Maybe you think that shooting for blood successfully is as easy as falling off a log, which, given the right circumstance, it well could be...but probably not.

What drill(s), if any, would you suggest?

My view is that the badguy won't care if you shoot or don't shoot competition. He will only care if you're able to make good hits in a relatively short time, much to his distress.
I wasn't commenting on all the comments, I was commenting on the original post:

"For those of us gettin' on in years, practicing with a 9mm can be delightful (especially if one's strong arm is riddled with arthritis in the wrist and fingers). On a recent range visit, I re-discovered that my venerable West German SIG P-226 is the softest-shooter of all my nines, as well as the most accurate pistol I own (well, I have one Series 70 Colt's Gov't Model that would probably edge it)."

HKGuns
March 23, 2013, 12:01 AM
What a bunch of Gurlie-men's. I guess I am the only one here with a real man gun.

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s8/v78/p1423643648-5.jpg

Curt Blunt
March 23, 2013, 03:27 PM
Not with that key lock....;)

buck460XVR
March 23, 2013, 04:51 PM
I don't believe either of them even attempted to do that, so you not wanting to be told works out well for everyone. Check the OP again; Costa "admitted" to carrying a 9mm. That's a far cry from trying to tell anyone the way it has to be for their SD, and the opposite end of the spectrum where this thread is trying to find a middle ground in discussing a concept.


If middle ground was the goal, why did the OP only include the thoughts and opinions of three folks supporting the carry of 9mm hi-cap firearms over larger caliber lower capacity firearms? Maybe I read it wrong, but I read this as another post of someone here trying to validate their own choices by quoting and giving examples of so called "experts" supporting their choice. I assume that's why there was no opinions expressed from the other side.....you know, to make it "middle ground". I respect the OPs choice, it is his choice to make, just as I ask him and others to respect mine. In the end, it is our lives and the lives of our loved ones that may depend on this choice. My statement was that I will make my choice on my experience and knowledge and the scenarios I am most likely to encounter, not because someone in a gun rag does it. Others are free to do as they chose.

willypete
March 23, 2013, 10:28 PM
Tapered barrel? Pfft. Get a Redhawk.

Deer_Freak
March 24, 2013, 01:29 AM
What got me started with the 9mm is a Kel Tec P-11. It's not the most accurate gun but I can carry it in my pocket. Eleven 9mm rounds in my front pocket is a potent package. I can carry a 1911 or even larger revolvers but that is a hassle when I can just stick a gun in my pocket. Then I bought a Ruger P-95. Next thing you know I traded for an XD comp in 9 mm for IDPA. Plus I have several Hi Points and a 9mm carbine. The only handgun ammo I keep a lot of is 9mm and 357 mag. The 9mm has totally pushed the 38 spl out of my inventory.

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