AK-47 Ergonomics Question


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cbrgator
September 14, 2012, 05:56 PM
I just took my dad out for his triennial outdoor range trip to shoot his AK. He explained to me that because of the way the stock rests against his cheek, the recoil forces the stock to sort of bang into his face with each shot.

After 140 rounds, it hurt him too much to continue. He found that if he turned his head further sideways it didn't cause his cheek any pain, but instead caused his neck discomfort.

Being an AR guy, I know very little about AK's and can't really help him. Are there any aftermarket stocks that align with the cheek more comfortably? Are there other alternatives/solutions?

EDIT: The AK in question is a Yugo M70 with a fixed wooden stock.

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Buck Kramer
September 14, 2012, 10:14 PM
I think a stock extension would help here. UTG makes them for about $10. It helped me with the same problem. It won't help with the cheek rest issue but it makes it a lot more comfortable and it takes the snap out of the kick that goes into your cheek.

HEAVY METAL 1
September 14, 2012, 10:47 PM
I find AKs awkward which is why I much prefer my SKSs.

Adam123
September 14, 2012, 11:12 PM
Without knowing the setup, it's hard to understand your predicament.

JohnKSa
September 14, 2012, 11:24 PM
Some years ago I bought a Hungarian SA-85M with the blond furniture and one of the hated thumbhole stocks made to comply with import restrictions. When I bought it, I had every intention of replacing the stock with the typical pistol grip furniture but made the mistake of shooting it with the thumbhole stock first.

It's still wearing the thumbhole stock and I have no plans to change anything. It fits me better than any of the standard-look pistol grip stocks and I guess I'd rather have something that fits than something that looks cool...

You might poke around to see if you can find someone who has one of the Hungarian SA-85M stocks lying around and if they'll make you a good deal on it.

The link below has a picture so you can see what I'm talking about.

http://www.ak-47.net/ak-47/sa85m.php

Okiegunner
September 14, 2012, 11:53 PM
If your dad's AK is "stock", try changing out the standard Warsaw pact stock. KVAR sells a "Nato" type stock that is longer and much more comfortable for the "Western" shooter.

coalman
September 15, 2012, 02:20 AM
Stock pad.

Rob G
September 15, 2012, 03:12 AM
It is possible to attach an AR style buffer tube to an AK receiver using the attachment points for the standard AK stock. Then you would be able to use any of the different AR style stocks available which might help you find something that fits your dad better.

meanmrmustard
September 15, 2012, 07:03 AM
I find AKs awkward which is why I much prefer my SKSs.
You and I differ. I find the SKS too short, especially in stock configuration. I can hold, manipulate and shoot an AK better due to the pistol grip. The SKS has me stretched at the left arm like a hunting rifle, but tight in the right shoulder without a proper grip.

You're lucky.

cbrgator
September 15, 2012, 11:34 AM
For those who asked, my dad's AK setup is as follows:

Yugo M70
Standard fixed wooden stock

I know with respect to hand guards, the Yugo M70 is different (longer) than standard AK variants. Are there any differences in terms of butt stocks as well or will any AK stock fit a fixed stock Yugo M70?

Hizzie
September 15, 2012, 12:10 PM
For those who asked, my dad's AK setup is as follows:

Yugo M70
Standard fixed wooden stock

I know with respect to hand guards, the Yugo M70 is different (longer) than standard AK variants. Are there any differences in terms of butt stocks as well or will any AK stock fit a fixed stock Yugo M70?
That is what the problem is. The Yugo's use a slightly different stock pattern than the rest of the AK shooting world. The comb of the stock is different for sure. I'm not sure about the trunnions and compatability with standard WARSAW stocks.

ACE Riflestocks makes an adapter to fit the Yugo AK. It allows the fitment of any ACE Type stock or folding mechanism. http://riflestocks.com/store/product35.html

cbrgator
September 15, 2012, 12:30 PM
Thanks Hizzie.

If I get the Ace adapter, that allows me to get this other adapter so I can attach an AR buffer tube and any AR stock, right?

http://riflestocks.com/store/product29.html

Using AR stocks would really expand my dad's options.

Hizzie
September 15, 2012, 02:02 PM
Thanks Hizzie.

If I get the Ace adapter, that allows me to get this other adapter so I can attach an AR buffer tube and any AR stock, right?

http://riflestocks.com/store/product29.html

Using AR stocks would really expand my dad's options.
Yes. Do you need the adjustable length of pull? ACE has several fixed stock lengths and they make a cheek riser for the AKFX stock. Not to mention the recoil pad is available in several thicknesses. You aren't limited to the stocks ACE makes either. CNC Warrior makes a compatible stock. DPH Arms sells one. Tromix makes several stocks.

cbrgator
September 15, 2012, 03:06 PM
Yes. Do you need the adjustable length of pull? ACE has several fixed stock lengths and they make a cheek riser for the AKFX stock. Not to mention the recoil pad is available in several thicknesses. You aren't limited to the stocks ACE makes either. CNC Warrior makes a compatible stock. DPH Arms sells one. Tromix makes several stocks.

There are so many more choices with AR-15 stocks, I feel like if I can just attach an AR buffer tube, that's really the way to go. He'd have so much more to choose from.

One question I do have though is this:

Stocks on AKs are angled somewhat downwards while AR-15 stocks come straight back from the gun. Does the adapter made by ACE adjust the angle of the AK, or will the buffer tube be angled downards like the Yugo OEM fixed stock?

Rob G
September 15, 2012, 04:46 PM
Stocks on AKs are angled somewhat downwards while AR-15 stocks come straight back from the gun. Does the adapter made by ACE adjust the angle of the AK, or will the buffer tube be angled downards like the Yugo OEM fixed stock?

If you use an AR buffer tube on an AK it'll come straight out from the back of the receiver. It'll be a little low in relation to the receiver but given how low the sights on an AK sit it's actually at about the right height. However there are AR stocks with adjustable cheek pieces if you want a little more height.

Justin
September 15, 2012, 05:11 PM
It could be an ergo issue, or it could be a technique issue. Make sure your Dad is pulling the rifle back into his shoulder with a decent amount of force, as well as applying some pressure to the fore end with his other hand.

Depending on how your Dad is built, the standard AK stock may be too short for him. I'm fairly tall and lanky, and the standard AK stocks always leave me hunched up over the rear end of the receiver. If that's the case, a longer stock might help alleviate the issue.

carbine85
September 15, 2012, 05:56 PM
IMHO I think the AK has very poor ergonomics and prefer the SKS when shooting the 7.62x39.

Certaindeaf
September 15, 2012, 06:00 PM
They make the AR in like .17-.50.

jad0110
September 16, 2012, 11:04 AM
Depending on how your Dad is built, the standard AK stock may be too short for him. I'm fairly tall and lanky, and the standard AK stocks always leave me hunched up over the rear end of the receiver. If that's the case, a longer stock might help alleviate the issue.

I agree - tall guys and standard length AK stocks don't go together. Even longer stocks don't work particularly well for me, at 6' 7" tall. I do fine with most AR stocks though, even when I collapse them down part way, go figure. Maybe it is because the sights sit higher on the AR platform, I dunno.

InkEd
September 16, 2012, 11:20 AM
I recommend the Vltor AR-buffer tube adapter. It is a good solid metal adjustable position tube with waterproof storage compartment It will work with any Mil-Spec Stock designed for an AR.

jon_in_wv
September 16, 2012, 03:32 PM
I really like the Mako Stock on mine. Its easier to install than some of the others, it uses a really sturdy polymer extension and has an adjustable length of pull, cheekpiece, and a textured rubber butt pad.

http://www.themakogroup.com/category_s/55.htm

They even sell on with a recoil reduction mechanism in it. Mine doesn't have that but I think it still help recoil management quite a bit.

Hizzie
September 16, 2012, 05:52 PM
Many recommendations from well intentioned people with no clue about Yugo AK's. The Yugoslavian AK's buttstock attaches VERY differently than the conventional AK stock.

Take a minute to see what I am referring to. http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/IWDNEWYUGO_2.html

Also take note of the comb on the Yugo stocks. Much higher than standard WARSAW patterns. Those are 2 things to consider when thinking of purchasing a Yugo AK.

Neither Vltor or Mako produce a compatable stock.

jon_in_wv
September 17, 2012, 11:16 PM
Good point, I like others, failed to notice it was a Yugo.

Adam123
September 18, 2012, 09:27 AM
They make the AR in like .17-.50.
So, instead of like changing stocks or like technique, he should like buy like an AR? That is like some fantastic advice.

As others have said, it could be the setup or poor technique. I'd be willing to be that it's poor technique (or he has an *extremely* low level of pain tolerance). I say that because I always see people posting that underfolders are painful to shoot after a few shots. However, with proper technique, they are no worse than anything else.

Conversely, if it's uncomfortable to shoot, then that could be an ergonomics issues. This can easily be solved as the aftermarket for AK products has really picked up over the last couple of years. You have many options. All of that said (by me and everyone else), it's rather difficult to start recommending specific products without seeing your Dad's shooting technique. Shop around. Amazon.com has a lot of AK products.

jon_in_wv
September 19, 2012, 10:13 AM
Yeah heavy recoil isn't a complaint you hear often about the ak.

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

cbrgator
September 26, 2012, 11:07 AM
He wasn't complaining about recoil in the traditional sense (i.e. that his shoulder hurts). His complaint is that the stock bangs into his cheek/upper jaw, and after 100+ rounds, became painful.

SSN Vet
September 26, 2012, 12:26 PM
I'm 6' and feel that a NATO length stock is necessary for the AK

toejamm
September 26, 2012, 06:53 PM
Midway has these cheek pads:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/144343/kick-eez-cheek-eez-cheek-protector-5-x-6-x-1-4-black

I plan on getting one for my 13 year old's Rem. 870 the next time I place an order with Midway, for the same reason as your Dad.

Averageman
September 28, 2012, 10:44 AM
I wanted to raise the comb of this stock to make using the scope a little easier.
Wroked pretty good for me. Covered with leather it raises the stock comb two inches and is very comfortable to shoot. Two pillars underneath it allow me to pull it to use the irons.
Takes a couple hours to make.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r263/Averageman1/002.jpg

Hizzie
October 4, 2012, 06:20 PM
So what route did you end up going?

fatcat4620
October 4, 2012, 07:44 PM
They make the AR in like .17-.50.
Yeah, but will they make a reliable one?

I had the same issue today with my ak. The butt of the stock is just to small.

cbrgator
October 5, 2012, 08:14 PM
So what route did you end up going?

I presented my dad with the options of the cheek pad and using the adapter to allow the AK to utilize an AR stock.

He decided (mostly due to cost) to start with trying the cheek pad. It's on its way from MidwayUSA. Hope it works out for him. Thanks to all those who offered advice.

Jcastellan
November 28, 2012, 11:39 PM
Not sure if this is related to the same issue your Pops is having, but I recently purchased a Zastava PAP AK (M70), and am having the same complaint. Put 200 rounds through it the other day and when I was done it felt like I got punched in a little spot of my right cheek. Unfortunately I can't upload a photo, but I've heard that a Zastava M76 stock is a more comfotable stock for those who have the same complaint. The PAP is a beautiful solid weapon, but damn it takes a toll on your face. The attached photo is my PAP stock, along with a blue tab indicating where the discomfort point is. The red line is my impression of where the M76 stock would run. All I can think of is that because of the slope of the M70 stock, it forces upwards into your cheekbone causing discomfort....... Any update on you're end?

leadcounsel
November 29, 2012, 03:41 AM
I like the thumbhole stocks with the raised check weld.

You can also get a Dragunov style stock with a raised checkweld, one that rotates up an down. It's excellent.

DPris
November 29, 2012, 01:46 PM
I've worked with two Yugo M70-based AKs in the past two months.
The two models in question were from Century, and were PAP versions set up for optic mounts.

Now, this is a Yugo-specific issue, so it needs to be approached from that literal angle & with some specific Yugo analysis without making general AK statements or recommendations to switch to an AR.

On both, the US-made WOOD stocks are angled higher to provide a higher cheekweld WITH optics mounted.
What that does is force the cheek down lower onto the stock when using iron sights. I ran into the same exact problem, it forced me to rest my cheekbone ridge directly against wood on that stock, and even with the low recoil of the 7.62x39 round each shot was painful. Had a visible bruise the next day after shooting the first one, shot the second one with an optic mounted & had no problem.

Since I've never tried a non-optic Yugo AK version, I don't know if all of the Zastava-made M70 derivatives use that higher-angled comb, or if it's just those built for optics.

Does your Dad's gun have either a rail on top of the cover or a side-mount rail on the left side of the receiver?
If so, that's your problem right there.

If not, I'd say it indicates all or most of the Yugos do have the higher stock angle, and if that's the case, that still remains the problem.

Stock changes may or may not help.
Selling the Yugo & buying a standard AK with a standard stock drop would solve the problem.
I can sympathize with your Dad, I flat would not shoot one of these high-stock guns using only the iron sights.

How long has he had the gun & did it come from Century?

Denis

danweasel
November 29, 2012, 02:12 PM
I had the exact same issue.

I put on a slip on butt pad, This one:

http://centerfiresystems.com/padaka02.aspx

It makes the stock about an inch longer, twice as wide and at least an inch longer from top to bottom. Such a huge improvement for $10. The pad fits snug and is in no danger of coming off. Plus it has little knobs on the butt that really stick it to your shoulder.

I don't really know why it worked but it did.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 29, 2012, 06:37 PM
I put 2,000 rounds though my Tantal before finally getting a buttpad listed above. It does make it more comfortable but I could live with the short wire buttstock. Squaring up your stance is needed for the short stocks or you may find your nose on the dustcover.

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