Bullseye vs Unique vs Titegroup


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arthury
September 14, 2012, 09:47 PM
All three are fast burning powders, all have illustrious track records and all are pretty versatile.

If my intention is to load 45acp & 9mm Luger for competition, which of these are consistently more accurate?

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Yarddog
September 14, 2012, 09:49 PM
I don't shoot competition but Unique dose fine in (ALL) my hand guns. They are accurate to boot ; )
Y/D

ljnowell
September 14, 2012, 09:58 PM
from those three I would pick bullseye. If there was no power factor to be made I would probably pick AA#2, even with powqer factor I might, as long as I could make it safely.

Kevin Rohrer
September 14, 2012, 10:07 PM
Unique is bulkier than Bullseye and safer to use. Double-charges are not your friend.

grubbylabs
September 14, 2012, 10:21 PM
I do not know why I am the exception to the rule but Unique meters very consistently for me out of both my Hornady dispenser and my uni-flow. My 44 shoots very accurately with it. I only load 6 grains of it under a cast 240 grain bullet to get about 800fps out of a 4" barrel. In that gun it is a tack driver.

ColtPythonElite
September 14, 2012, 10:30 PM
I also have Hornady and Uniflow measure. Either does just fine with Unique, also.

ArchAngelCD
September 14, 2012, 10:51 PM
Bullseye vs Unique vs Titegroup
All three are fast burning powders, all have illustrious track records and all are pretty versatile.

If my intention is to load 45acp & 9mm Luger for competition, which of these are consistently more accurate?
Bullseye and Titegroup are fast powders but unique is a medium speed powder. Since you said you're loading 45 Auto and 9mm ammo for competition the powder you use will depend on the bullet weight and power requirements. One powder might not work for both and faster powder usually reach pressure limits before they generate the velocities necessary to make power, especially with heavier bullets.

More info will help us help you...

arthury
September 14, 2012, 11:04 PM
[...]More info will help us help you...

45ACP

Bullet: 230gr FMJ or LRN (moly-coated)
Gun: 1911 Govn't model
PF: 165,000


9mm Luger

Bullet: 124gr FMJ MG
Gun: CZ 75 SP01, Beretta 92A1, Px4
PF: 125,000

ArchAngelCD
September 14, 2012, 11:08 PM
Is there a power factor in the competition you are going to shoot?

arthury
September 14, 2012, 11:36 PM
It's IDPA and so, the usual. I will update the info above.

ArchAngelCD
September 14, 2012, 11:52 PM
It's not too hard to get a 124gr bullet to 1025 fps in the 9mm without going over pressure but doing so with fast powders will increase felt recoil. I have had very good results using HS-6 and Longshot to push a 124gr 9mm bullet to 125 power although Longshot can be loud.

On the 45 end, 165 is not all that hard to achieve with a 230gr bullet. 800 fps is more than enough and that's not hard to do with most powders. Unique and W231 will easily get you where you need to be.

If you want to use only 1 powder, of the 3 you mentioned i would definitely go with Unique...

rikman
September 15, 2012, 12:38 AM
Unique & Bullseye for the above mentioned reasons....

coalman
September 15, 2012, 12:44 AM
BE in .45acp and Unique in 9mm. These are more consistently accurate than me. TG not consistently so much.

Shmackey
September 15, 2012, 01:44 AM
Whichever meters best for you. For me, that rules out Unique.

ArchAngelCD
September 15, 2012, 01:56 AM
Whichever meters best for you. For me, that rules out Unique.
I agree Unique does not meter well. I was answering the question as asked. I would also use a different powder, possible 2 different powders.

BBDartCA
September 15, 2012, 01:59 AM
Titegroup is the K-Mart of powders. Dirt cheap. Burns not so clean. VERY tiny range of acceptable charge weights. If your powder measure does not like it, your accuracy at best will suffer. At worst you will get a KB. You can triple charge with Titegroup!

Bullseye and Unique are hard to beat for 45 ACP. I think AA#7 and Power Pistol are the way to go for 9mm with all weights.

kerreckt
September 15, 2012, 08:10 AM
I guess I am the odd man out. I have used all three for loading the basic three (9mm,40 and 45acp). I settled on Titegroup mostly because I felt it was cleaner and more accurate than the others. I don't shoot in any competitions but my sons and I shoot about 2-3K rounds a month and it works for us. I am going to go back and try Unique again. Bullseye is the dirtiest powder I've ever reloaded and I will continue to not use it. What about PowerPistol that is one of my favorites,also.

Walkalong
September 15, 2012, 09:14 AM
I agree AA #2 would be worth trying here. AA #5 will do it easily.

Of the three powders mentioned, I would use Bullseye or Unique. I don't care that Unique doesn't meter as well as some, it meters well enough and on target results are good.

Jim Watson
September 15, 2012, 09:27 AM
I am in the None Of The Above category... almost.

For .45 CDP and 9mm SSP/ESP I have loaded mostly W231/HP38 for years.
I have tried this and that fad powder, seldom more than one can each, but always gone back to 231.

However, I have lately been working with .45 Minor for ESP. It lets me shoot the bigbore without kicking my arthritis around.
I tried several powders. Flake powders give more uniform velocities than Ball powders like 231, WST, or TG in the 650 fps range. Bullseye meters more precisely than large flakes like Clays, Solo 1000 or 700X. So I am now loading out of only my second can of Bullseye in 40 years... but with a big jug on the shelf.

The internet rings with cries of Dirty Bullseye, but I have found it to be like my gunsmith says, the residue is black and nasty LOOKING but is physically light and ashy, unlike the gritty fouling from other products.

Unique is a good compromise powder if you want to cover a wide range of calibers out of one can. But for specific loads you can usually do better.

So on the OP's list of three, I pick Bullseye.

jaysouth
September 15, 2012, 09:37 AM
I am not a gun-dancer(IDPA, etc) but I would go along with Jim Watson, above. 231 will certainly serve you well if it can make the power factor in 9mm safely.

I know of a bunch of bulleseye shooters who torture expensive 9mm 1911s into winner's circles in national level competitions. All use Titegroup and Hornady XTP bullets. Don't know how it would get you to your power level in 9mm.

arthury
September 15, 2012, 12:25 PM
Good info, guys. Keep them coming.

CraigC
September 15, 2012, 12:50 PM
...but unique is a medium speed powder.
Yep, among pistol powders, Unique is in the middle. Bullseye and Titegroup are much faster burning.


Titegroup is the K-Mart of powders. Dirt cheap. Burns not so clean. VERY tiny range of acceptable charge weights.
I disagree with this. Titegroup has a very broad range. Hodgdon's .44Mag data varies from 4.7gr for 800fps up to 10.0gr for almost 1300fps. It is as versatile as Unique but is not position sensitive. I use Titegroup for the same applications I use Unique for. Due to its low density, I use it for those loads of 6.0gr and below, where Unique does not meter so well in my Uniflow.


You can triple charge with Titegroup!
That's why you put your eyeball on every case before seating the bullet, regardless of what powder you're using.

NC Cruffler
September 15, 2012, 12:51 PM
Consider Hodgdon Clays. A little goes a long way.

mr16ga
September 15, 2012, 01:11 PM
I too use Unique for all my hand gun loading. I just love the smell of Unique and double charges over flow my .45 ACP cases.

Bullseye is easy to double charge.

I don't know about the other powder.

bds
September 15, 2012, 01:24 PM
I am not a gun-dancer(IDPA, etc) but I would go along with Jim Watson, above. 231 will certainly serve you well if it can make the power factor in 9mm safely.

I know of a bunch of bulleseye shooters who torture expensive 9mm 1911s into winner's circles in national level competitions. All use Titegroup and Hornady XTP bullets. Don't know how it would get you to your power level in 9mm.
For 9mm, Titegroup will give you higher velocities than W231/HP-38 with slightly less temperature sensitivity for cold morning chrono checks. IMO, it is more violent with less forgiving pressure spikes at the max charges. With a narrow load range, your high range load data can become max+ in a hurry with a slight bump to the OAL/bullet setback (for 115 gr 9mm, there's only 0.3 gr separating start to max charge :eek:). I do not use Titegroup for 45ACP as there are much better suited powders like Bullseye/WST/W231/HP-38. I only use Titegroup for jacketed/plated bullets. With jacketed/plated bullets (especially with Berry's hollow base TP bullets), it produces very accurate loads. If you are looking for cleaner burning powder that will produce even higher velocities, many shooters like N320 but it costs more and I can't justify the difference in price vs increase in stage scores.

Bullseye does what it is called - produce very accurate loads. For 9mm, it produces very accurate loads with a "snappy thump" that I kinda enjoy - my wife? No. I used to use W231/HP-38 for less recoil target loads but now I load Missouri 125 gr RN with 4.0 gr of Promo for her. It is still very accurate with much more pleasant recoil and I am growing to like the load very much. With jacketed/plated 9mm bullets, Bullseye consistently produces the smallest shot groups but not for 45ACP. I shoot mostly lead in 45ACP now and 5.0 gr W231/HP-38 with 200 gr SWC bullet keeps producing very consistently small shot groups. 4.0 gr of Promo with 200 gr SWC produces the lightest recoil 45ACP target load that is also very accurate.

I tried but can't meter Unique well enough to produce accurate shot groups ... I know, it's me. ;)

Walkalong
September 15, 2012, 02:26 PM
It is as versatile as Unique but is not position sensitive.Hodgdon advertises Titegroup as such, but when I tested it for position sensitivity in .38 and .357 cases, it was quite average in that department.

ljnowell
September 15, 2012, 02:48 PM
Titegroup has a very broad range.

Thats false. In 44 mag it does because you can load everything from specials up to magnums, it absolutely does not in the OPs rounds. For example, in 45acp 230fmj, it has a .4gr spread from min to max, according to hodgdon, thats not very broad in my opinion or that of most others. in 9mm 125gr fmj, it has a load spread of .3gr by hodgdon data. Thats as tight as it gets.

CraigC
September 15, 2012, 03:31 PM
Thats false.
Perhaps you should look at Bullseye data in the .45ACP. Yet I see no one holding that against it. It has nothing to do with the name on the can and everything to do with the burn rate, density and the pressure range of the cartridge. Both Titegroup and Bullseye are low density, fast burning powders. So one should expect them to have very small ranges in a given pressure level. Especially in an auto cartridge where you need a certain amount of pressure to operate the action.

SlamFire1
September 15, 2012, 04:03 PM
Metering well provides people the illusion that precision provides control. I have shot kegs of thrown charges of W231, pounds of AA#5 in 45 ACP, both ball powders which meter well, and there is little to no difference between standard deviations and extreme spreads with thrown charges of Bullseye.

Your choice of powder should be made on a different characteristic, especially as you are shooting IDPA. You action shooters blow out a lot of powder in the shortest time possible and I have read comments from action shooters how powder clouds obscure their vision. I shoot between powder clouds as I do not have a clock to beat.

I donít shoot titegroup, so maybe titegroup shooters could comment on the powder residue in the air.

Modern Bullseye and Unique were reformulated to burn cleaner, I have heard from some they are not objectionable. Most of my stuff is older and some days, I see smoke.

ljnowell
September 15, 2012, 04:55 PM
Perhaps you should look at Bullseye data in the .45ACP. Yet I see no one holding that against it. It has nothing to do with the name on the can and everything to do with the burn rate, density and the pressure range of the cartridge. Both Titegroup and Bullseye are low density, fast burning powders. So one should expect them to have very small ranges in a given pressure level. Especially in an auto cartridge where you need a certain amount of pressure to operate the action.

.3gr for his 9mm loading is a tight load range, whether you want to admit it or not. You posted data for a 6gr swing, that data does not apply to these cartridges.

CraigC
September 15, 2012, 05:30 PM
It's .4gr in Speer #14. It's .4 for Bullseye and .6 for Unique. Universal is .5, 700X is .4, American Select is .5 and 231 is .5. Again, deal. For 147's Power Pistol is .5, 3N37 is .5, SR4756 is .4, HS6 is .5, Unique is .5, WSF is .5 and AA #5 is .6. So why that particular factor is held against Titegroup and no other, I have no idea.

Certaindeaf
September 15, 2012, 05:51 PM
Probably go with the Red Dot.

Walkalong
September 15, 2012, 06:08 PM
Perhaps Titegroup's reputation for being "spikey" at the top is what people have issue with, vs the range of the start and max loadings.

I tired it. It didn't do anything special for me, and certainly didn't show me it needed to replace anything I had.

Jim Watson
September 15, 2012, 06:10 PM
I am sure the OP can tell by now, you can find somebody who likes about every powder on the market. Well, duh, if they didn't sell, they wouldn't still be in production.

CZ57
September 15, 2012, 08:47 PM
For the performance you need to make power factor with 9mm and .45 ACP, I'm kinda in the W231 burn rate camp. I say kinda because I no longer use W231. Instead, I use Ramshot ZIP.

On a number of occasions, Walkalong has posted a pic of the two powders side by side and they are virtually identical in appearance. The main difference being that ZIP burns cleaner than W231 and for me, ZIP provides a bit better performance in .45 ACP. Chargeweights are very similar. I load both cast and jacketed powders with ZIP and get excellent results.

Looking at SIERRA's data for 9mm, their bullets are 125 grains rather than 124 and 1000 FPS which would be the required minimum velocity to make the 125 power factor (1008 FPS for a 124 gr. bullet) is right in the middle of ZIP's performance range. It would be a very good choice for making the 9mm power factor of 125.

I am also in the ball powder camp. I no longer use flake powders for handgun loads because when you find a good load that provides excellent standard deviation numbers, it is easier to repeat the desired chargeweight with less variation which also contributes to lower standard deviation in your loads using a ball powder. This could be of importance for you if you are hugging the minimum power factor required. ;)

BBDartCA
September 15, 2012, 10:49 PM
.3gr for his 9mm loading is a tight load range, whether you want to admit it or not. You posted data for a 6gr swing, that data does not apply to these cartridges.

+1

For 147g FMJ, Speer says for Titegroup, the recommended load is 3.3g .. period! With warnings not to download. The other bullet weights they allow a 0.4 grains of range with this powder. There is just a small margin of error allowed with this powder ... combined with poor metering in some measures, plus the ability to TRIPLE charge some cases, means its a downright potentially dangerous propellant. All below are results with Titegroup.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~orthros/snow%20and%20gun%20club%20035.JPG

http://thegunzone.com/images/anaconda-kb1.jpg

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/fltbed/GlockKB.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn19/OHtard/2c2c3d02.jpg

http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u307/Stainz_2007/KABOOM.jpg

http://www.wingman26.com/images/shooting/glock-kb1.jpg

http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq281/Eagle7222/IMAG0417.jpg

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee123/dennispnascar/brass2.jpg

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee123/dennispnascar/glove.jpg

ArchAngelCD
September 16, 2012, 04:28 AM
All I know is, I use several powder in the 9mm but mostly W231. I use almost nothing other than W231 in the .45 Auto. It's my go-to powder for building handgun ammo...

In the 9mm I load 124/125gr Lead bullet with 4.0gr W231 and 124/125gr jacketed bullets with 4.4gr W231. Neither are near the top end of the load range but both are good range rounds.

In the 45 Auto it's a little simpler, I load 5.5gr W231 under any 230gr bullet lead or jacketed. I even charge the same 5.5gr W231 on the rare times I load a 200gr lead bullet for the 45 Auto.

readyeddy
September 16, 2012, 06:22 AM
W231

steelerdude99
September 16, 2012, 10:16 AM
I do not know why I am the exception to the rule but Unique meters very consistently for me out of both my Hornady dispenser and my uni-flow. My 44 shoots very accurately with it. I only load 6 grains of it under a cast 240 grain bullet to get about 800fps out of a 4" barrel. In that gun it is a tack driver.

For me it's not that Unique does not always meter well. It just does not meter well under 5 grains. I load lots of 38 special and use unique using the .66 CC Lee auto disk giving me 5.0-5.1 pretty consistently. By the way .66 CC is a way bigger disk than what the chart says (.53 or .57 is supposed to be what I'm using). But I weigh every tenth of them w/ a bean scale and they are consistently 5.0-5.1 gain and shoot well. If I use a smaller disk, inter-charge variation is significantly larger. I even tried shaking the auto disk for each load. It just does not seem to work.

chuck

CraigC
September 16, 2012, 11:03 AM
For 147g FMJ, Speer says for Titegroup, the recommended load is 3.3g .. period! With warnings not to download. The other bullet weights they allow a 0.4 grains of range with this powder.
There is no Titegroup data for 147's in Speer #14.

And yet Hodgdon lists a .4gr spread. Actually more than other powders listed. It's .4gr for AutoComp, .3 for Universal, .5 for 7625, .3 for 700-X and .3 for WSF. And there is not a dramatic swing in pressure for these loads. So again, I ask, why is this held against Titegroup but no other powder I've listed in three different posts???


There is just a small margin of error allowed with this powder ...
As I've said three times, now, it's comparable to other powders and yet the only complaints are about Titegroup. Why???


...combined with poor metering in some measures
Have YOU had metering problems with Titegroup? Because I've used a lot of it and never had an issue. It meters better than Unique.


...plus the ability to TRIPLE charge some cases...
Yep, because you certainly can't do that with Bullseye. :rolleyes:


...means its a downright potentially dangerous propellant....
You clearly believe that but it's pure nonsense.


All below are results with Titegroup.
No, all below are results of MISTAKES made by handloaders.

CraigC
September 16, 2012, 11:13 AM
And yet two weeks ago you recommended Titegroup. What gives???

Power Pistol or Titegroup for both.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=675483

And back in July...

Its fine for 115g fmj 9mm. Very pleased with accuracy.

Now it's...

...means its a downright potentially dangerous propellant....

:confused::confused::confused:

ljnowell
September 16, 2012, 04:51 PM
CraigC, whasts with your axe to grind? You like it, others dont. Get over it.

FROGO207
September 16, 2012, 05:32 PM
I got out of the one propellant for multiple calibers thing a long time ago when I realized that the results would be only an OK choice for all of them. Now I go to the specific caliber/bullet weight I want and choose a slow to medium burning propellant that will fill the case close to capacity. I am looking for accurate, consistent, and reliable as well as mild/medium recoil for my go to load. If it takes three choices of propellant for three different bullet weights then that is what it ends up being. I have enough different propellants on hand these days so trying what I want to is no big deal. YMMV

Walkalong
September 16, 2012, 06:15 PM
Points made. Enough.

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